"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[TerryWMartin]

Looks like Stan has branched out in his comic-bombing of more than one thread.

BTW what was this thread about before Stan got me laughing so hard I can't think.

[Faroe Islander]

hope there is more to come in this thread

[Mick_Purdy]

Bear in mind that we have certain footage of the TSBD exterior perhaps going astray post-assassination if we place any sort of faith in the testimony of Howard Leslie Brennan:

Mr. BELIN. Now, are these accurate or approximate locations, Mr. Brennan? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the Secret Service men right here? 
Mr. BELIN. I don't believe so. 
Mr. BRENNAN. You should have. It was on television before I got home my wife saw it. 
Mr. BELIN. On television? 
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. At this time we do not have them. 
Do you remember what station they were on television? 
Mr. BRENNAN. No. But they had it. And I called I believe Mr. Lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the FBI. I believe you might know about them. Somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. 
Mr. BELIN. Who would Mr. Lish be with? 

Mr. BRENNAN. The FBI. 
Mr. BELIN. All right. 
We thank you very much for that information. 

This to me, this is an utterly fantastic find Lee, I don't know where and how you keep finding these little gems but they just keep on giving.

[Mick_Purdy]

Would that be Special agent Robert Lish FBI

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Would that be Special agent Robert Lish FBI

It would indeed be, Mick.

[Faroe Islander]

bump

[GuestGuest]

This past winter, since I had some time, I read through the PM threads several times and downloaded about 150 pages to get a better handle on Sean Murphy's work. For the Darnell image and the Fritz/Bookhout notes he deserves lavish praise. But the third part of his work, on the Truly & Baker west elevator ride and related issues, I had some problems with. This third part hasn't been addressed yet, in the critical community, and warrants some feedback. I touch on this in the lunchroom essay. There are a couple of flaws in the thesis that seem to render it fatal, in my opinion. In any case it needs serious tightening up.

I have an antithetical take on the elevators that I first brought out in The Elevator Escape Theory. Much better information and analysis has come out through the Archives, the Barry Ernest book, and the forums that I'm in the process of putting together in a long essay. Unfortunately that won't be ready until several months from now. I've only got about 15 pages done of a projected 50. The text is basically in my head, and will come out in gobs, but the obstacles of incorporating pictures into the flow of it is a continual learning curve. No telling when I'll resolve computer techie issues. The basics of the thesis, that JD took the killers down in the west, still rings true. I first saw the idea in my mind in 2003, walking away after reading JD's testimony in a musty Warren volume in a college library, and brick-by-brick have been assembling it.

The way Sean's work was received shows the immense amount of interest the research community has in the TSBD building. He certainly reignited the flame. But a sharply-honed sword of critique must be used to test the results of his work.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The recently joined member who has an interest in PM is Linda Giovanna Zambanini. Linda has contacted me to let me know she has been doing further work on it, and wants to post it all at once rather than piecemeal. She estimates she should be ready in a couple of days.
 

[StanDane]

The recently joined member who has an interest in PM is Linda Giovanna Zambanini. Linda has contacted me to let me know she has been doing further work on it, and wants to post it all at once rather than piecemeal. She estimates she should be ready in a couple of days.

Looking forward to it! Welcome aboard Linda!

[StanDane]

While I anxiously wait for Linda to show us her work, I placed this Allen crop image taken not long after the assassination next to a PM crop. Just wanted to compare perspectives, heights because I want something to do. 

The woman behind the glass on the left side in the Allen image looks like Sandra Styles to me. She also provides a rough estimation of height in that location. If the woman right next to her is Vicki Adams, that might make sense because I understand she was short and petite (I'm just guessing here). 

It's hard to tell if Oswald—standing outside as PM—is on the top step or not. Could be down one step, but I don't know if he's back in the corner either. His height was 5 feet 8 inches, so that's a benchmark to keep in mind.

Consider this post a thread bump.
 
 

 

[Colin_Crow]

Stan, I did an estimate of PM's height a while back using Frazier as a guide. It turned out at about 5’8”.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Stan, I did an estimate of PM's height a while back using Frazier as a guide. It turned out at about 5’8”.

Which is about right for Oswald, no? Especially considering most people straighten the back fully when being measured...

[Colin_Crow]

Stan, I did an estimate of PM's height a while back using Frazier as a guide. It turned out at about 5’8”.

Which is about right for Oswald, no? Especially considering most people straighten the back fully when being measured...

It would be safe to say it is not inconsistent with Oswald.

[GuestGuest]

Is the short bloke stood to Buell Wesley Frazier's left on the top step, wearing a hat, a contender for Roy Truly?  This guy certainly is in a great position for Baker's approach.  Don't know whether its just pixelated but it looks to me like he's right against the doors and the doors may be being held open. 

If it is, and it is Oswald there too -- it would certainly be incredibly "ironic" that the only two people's names given to the Dallas Police by Truly after the assassination were:

Lee Harvey Oswald
and
Buell Wesley Frazier

Truly told them Oswald came to work with Frazier and this was, I believe, the catalyst for the Frazier manhunt that afternoon -- and not the official story that Linnie Mae Randle told the Irving police about Frazier and the curtain rods story.

[StanDane]

I think I'm with you on the camera, Lee. When I started following the PM thread last year, my first thought was that Oswald was holding a camera by the way his hands were positioned. Then the talk shifted to coke bottles, apples and sandwiches and I dropped it. Who really knows, but what you had to say on the Alternative Lunchroom Encounter thread earlier made me rethink this.

 

When I look at the way this woman holds the camera, Oswald's hands, while not cupping the camera on the bottom (apparently), are on each side of whatever it is he's holding similar to this woman (although she's holding the camera lower here, so the hands may drop accordingly).
 
We'll see how close we are when Linda chimes in.

[GuestGuest]

The Imperial Reflex isn't the ideal camera to use from the position PM was in. Oswald would have had to negotiate people being in front of him due to the nature of how you would need to operate the camera from waist height while looking down at the viewfinder. You can't use it from eye level. Just a thought.

[GuestGuest]

It's a good thought, Paul.

But just because he was stuck at the back of the crowd of people on the steps this doesn't mean he can't use the camera.  It just might mean he couldn't operate the camera at the waist.

Nothing stopping him lifting the camera further toward his chin and taking shots - and still look in the viewfinder.  He could also lift it over his head although if he this he wouldn't be certain of the framing involved - unless he really understood the camera angles given the IR lens and could compensate for them.

I'm sure most of us have taken photographs without looking through a camera's viewfinder.

[GuestGuest]

Am I right remembering that there has been discussion centred around a flash of light appearing on the TSBD steps in one of the home movie films before?

Or have I made this up?

[StanDane]

Am I right remembering that there has been discussion centred around a flash of light appearing on the TSBD steps in one of the home movie films before?

Or have I made this up?

Lee: 

Back on page 6 of this thread, mid-way down the page, you introduce the idea of PM holding a camera. On page 9, fourth post down, you discuss it more. Then, beginning on the last post on page 10 and continuing on, there is much general discussion about what could be causing the point ("flash") of light seen in the Wiegman images. 

I remember this fairly well because this is around the time I joined the forum.

[TerryWMartin]

Am I right remembering that there has been discussion centred around a flash of light appearing on the TSBD steps in one of the home movie films before?

Or have I made this up?

Lee,

I recall reading something about that on the Ed Forum thread. Personally I did not see much of a flash but there was a something lighter at that point.

I wish I could pinpoint it but I am at work at the moment.  

[TerryWMartin]

I also recall someone commenting it was probably the Sun reflecting off the glass of the soda bottle.

That is, if it was a soda in his hands.

[StanDane]

Wow, great catch by Sean in Robin's high-res pic of Prayer Man (aka Lee?) and Frazier.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&page=42#entry277622

Now THIS, as they say, is actionable intel.
There's one crime that never has a statute of limitation, murder. Dallas DA could have grand jury call Frazier in next week and read him the aggravated perjury statute but note it only applies to what he says now. He's immune from prosecution for any past perjury because of the statute of limitation on that crime at both the state and federal level.

Ask him two questions: Is this you in photo?  Is this Lee Oswald in the photo? Depending on his answers to those, proceed accordingly.

Still think this is "actionable intel," beowulf? If so, how do we get a grand jury to pull in Frazier and confront him directly with this?

[beowulf]

Frazier is now on the record (via Gary Mack) that he doesn't recognize the guy who looks like Frazier to be himself.
"We" don't get to pull people before the grand jury, its up to the DA to do so. In fact, since the statute of limitations has expired on all federal crimes and all state or federal lawsuits, the only way the case can be pursued is through either the Dallas DA or, I I suppose, the Texas AG (not sure what the rules are there for him to step into a local case) on the state murder charge, which has no SoL.  If the DA wished, he could call Frazier into the grand jury room at any time.  I doubt Frazier will ever get that summons.
Its a pity that Robin's clear shot showing Frazier standing next to PM only popped up  49 years and 10 months after the assassination. It certainly would have come in handy for Jim Garrison when HE had Frazier under oath.

EDIT:  Garrison was investigating conspiracy to murder, which only needed one act to occur in his jurisdiction.  Not sure about Louisiana, but conspiracy charges usually have a SoL. At federal level, for example, its 8 years, so the clock has probably run out for a New Orleans DA to pick up the mantle.

[StanDane]

Frazier is now on the record (via Gary Mack) that he doesn't recognize the guy who looks like Frazier to be himself.
"We" don't get to pull people before the grand jury, its up to the DA to do so. In fact, since the statute of limitations has expired on all federal crimes and all state or federal lawsuits, the only way the case can be pursued is through either the Dallas DA or, I I suppose, the Texas AG (not sure what the rules are there for him to step into a local case) on the state murder charge, which has no SoL.  If the DA wished, he could call Frazier into the grand jury room at any time.  I doubt Frazier will ever get that summons.
Its a pity that Robin's clear shot showing Frazier standing next to PM only popped up  49 years and 10 months after the assassination. It certainly would have come in handy for Jim Garrison when HE had Frazier under oath.

EDIT:  Garrison was investigating conspiracy to murder, which only needed one act to occur in his jurisdiction.  Not sure about Louisiana, but conspiracy charges usually have a SoL. At federal level, for example, its 8 years, so the clock has probably run out for a New Orleans DA to pick up the mantle.

I was loosey goosey with my words (I should know better when addressing an attorney). What I meant to say was could "we" show a DA the photo evidence so he himself could see Frazier standing right where he said he was standing per Frazier's own testimony, and then have Frazier brought in to state for the record (Gary Mack's word doesn't cut it for me) if he could recognize himself?
 
If we ever hope get this thing into the legal area, we're going to have to convince the right people we got something. We got anything better than Prayer Man?

Or are we hosed?

[beowulf]

"If we ever hope get this thing into the legal area, we're going to have to convince the right people we got something. We got anything better than Prayer Man?
Or are we hosed?"

Serving as District Attorney is sort of like being on the city council, its usually a stepping stone job to something bigger-- mayor, judge, congressman, etc. The DA could be approached with this but I'm sure he's already been approached by local poohbahs who've told him that if he wants to move up he needs to let sleeping dogs lie. That sounds cynical but someone like Jim Garrison--- who was willing to jump into this case with both feet, politics be damned-- is a rare bird.

[Sponsored content]