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Snyder - just following policy?

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Snyder - just following policy?

Post by greg parker on Thu 10 Oct 2013, 5:50 pm

"The American consul Richard Snyder decided to stall, as State Department policy was to proceed slowly with Americans who intended to defect and give them time to cool off. Snyder told Oswald to “come back in a couple days” and get his renunciation papers. Oswald never followed up."
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/State_Secret_Chapter1

Chapter one of Bill Simpich's book (from which the above quote was taken) should be required reading. I don't agree with everything in it, but damn, it's so close to the money and he has me utterly convinced regarding his "take" on all the shenanigans with Oswald descriptions...

But this post is actually to point out one error of fact.

It was not State Dept policy to stall. Quite the opposite.

Officially, Snyder claimed he learned a lesson from the previous would-be defector and wrote a letter to State suggesting a policy whereby they give the person a cooling-off period (whether they like it or not). By the time Oswald arrived on the scene, Snyder had not yet received an answer, so he took it upon himself to stall. It was AFTER Oswald that he finally got his reply. The law was cut and dry. There was no "delay" policy and no plans for one. If someone wanted to renounce their citizenship, they are to be accommodated without undue delay as per current law.  

Going from memory, I think the previous "defector" was Riciardelli and my gut tells me that his little drama was carried out simply to give Snyder his excuse for a "delay" with Oswald (needed to allow Oswald's eventual return).

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 6:43 am

Greg,

Can you provide a translation of this?
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/State_Secret_Chapter1
....Webster later followed it up by turning over his passport and receiving a Soviet passport from the Soviets. Curiously, Webster never turned over his passport to Snyder as requested....
Maybe the experiences available of Webster and Oswald are incomparable.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IDNAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=71gMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2363,1690990&dq=james+rand+met+webster+airport&hl=en
‎Youngstown Vindicator - May 21, 1962
....James Rand III, president of the Rand Corp., has said he felt a responsibility for Webster and would attempt to get him a job...(nice, clear photo of Webster in the article, btw, or is it Oswald....who can tell?)

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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 7:21 am

Tom,

Bill Simpich is a member here and maybe he will make an appearance to answer questions about his book that we all know he has been working on for years.

I think you've made your point on the other thread about your disagreement with the choice of words Bill used to describe possible similarities between Robert Webster and Lee Oswald.  The comment at the bottom of your post above just makes it look like you're now mocking Bill's work and belabouring your point.

I totally get your question about Bill's contradictory statements about Webster handing over/not handing over his passport to Richard E. Snyder but don't know why you have to move your criticism of Bill's choice of words about Webster's "resemblance" to Lee Oswald from one thread to another.

It looks quite Petty, Tom.  Don't be a Heartbreaker.

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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 8:32 am

I am disappointed that you think I am making a mistake by taking such a dim view of the two photos of Webster that Bill Simpich elected to present to readers. In my last post I commented, with slight sarcasm, on the ease of obtaining better images than Bill chose to present. If say, McAdams or Janney presented such strong conclusions supported by those two photos that Bill selected, would you still think I am carrying my point too far? I would rather be shunned than suspect I am pulling my punches. I have lately been served too many steaming pikes of hypocricy from people whose judgment I would never have been inclined to question. Bill led his long in the making, book with this conclusion and supporting photos. It is a lead essentially unchanged from internet articles he posted in 2010. Until I read Bill's new first chapter, when I thought of Bill, I remembered a researcher who had uncovered the fact in a CE that it was Bobby Hale's mother Virginia who sent Oswald from the Texas State Emp. office to A job interview at Leslie Welding. The contents of Bill's book will be read long after any reaction to it of mine has vanished.

I have no agenda, Lee, but I do admit to becoming a disagreeable and perhaps annoying presence in an increasing number of instances.
I question everyting I read as time permits. I respect your research and conclusions almost always because you demonstrate sincerity, you come prepared, and you always question the assertions of the authorities. Considering your feedback today, I will work on limiting the frequency and length of points I feel a need to emphasize.


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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by greg parker on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 8:43 am

Tom Scully wrote:Greg,

Can you provide a translation of this?
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/State_Secret_Chapter1
....Webster later followed it up by turning over his passport and receiving a Soviet passport from the Soviets. Curiously, Webster never turned over his passport to Snyder as requested....
Certainly can, Tom. As your link verifies, he did turn in his US passport and received a Soviet one in it's place after failing to send  that passport to Snyder as he was supposed to. Nowhere does Bill say he handed it over to Snyder. He clearly handed it to the Soviets and that is what Bill meant to convey.

Could Bill have worded the statement a bit less ambiguously? Probably. Could you have (as I did) worked out what he meant by reading the document you linked to? I don't understand how you could have missed it.


Maybe the experiences available of Webster and Oswald are incomparable.

I don't think they are totally incompatible. After all, they both defected within a short time-frame and both claimed to have knowledge needed by the Soviets. I don't think Bill ever claimed they were totally simpatico in every sense and in every way. 

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=IDNAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=71gMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2363,1690990&dq=james+rand+met+webster+airport&hl=en
‎Youngstown Vindicator - May 21, 1962
....James Rand III, president of the Rand Corp., has said he felt a responsibility for Webster and would attempt to get him a job...(nice, clear photo of Webster in the article, btw, or is it Oswald....who can tell?)

Sorry that you don't seem to see much similarity between them. Again, I don't think Bill is claiming they were two peas in a pod. Physically similar, yes. But you're missing the main point - the possible blending of their descriptions in various files.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by greg parker on Fri 11 Oct 2013, 2:46 pm

Here was what I was thinking of...


http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0063b.htm

I do note that someone has opined in the margin that the non-highlighted section may not apply to cases in the Soviet Union. But that doesn't matter. The law was unequivocal and Snyder should have accepted Oswald's renunciation. 

So when Snyder testified before the Commission and responded to this question from Coleman "Why didn't you provide him with the affidavit at that time?" with this: "Well, as the consul and, of course, the responsible person at the time, it didn't seem to me the sensible thing to do-in the sense that--I can't, I suppose, speak for all consuls, but it is sort of axiomatic, I think, in the consular service that when a man, a citizen comes in and asks to renounce his citizenship, you don't whip out a piece of paper and have him sign it. This is a very serious step, of course, an irrevocable step, really, and if nothing else you attempt to provide enough time for--to make sure that the person knows what he is doing. You explain, for one thing, what the meaning of the act is; and, secondly, again speaking for myself---I cannot speak for the Foreign Service in this--provide a little breather, if possible make the man leave your office and come back to it at a later time, just to make sure for what value there is in making sure---that the man's action is not something completely off the top of his head."

He knew he was talking out of his arse.


 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
Admin

Posts : 3448
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 58
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Sat 12 Oct 2013, 5:42 am

Tom Scully wrote:I am disappointed that you think I am making a mistake by taking such a dim view of the two photos of Webster that Bill Simpich elected to present to readers. In my last post I commented, with slight sarcasm, on the ease of obtaining better images than Bill chose to present. If say, McAdams or Janney presented such strong conclusions supported by those two photos that Bill selected, would you still think I am carrying my point too far? I would rather be shunned than suspect I am pulling my punches. I have lately been served too many steaming pikes of hypocricy from people whose judgment I would never have been inclined to question. Bill led his long in the making, book with this conclusion and supporting photos. It is a lead essentially unchanged from internet articles he posted in 2010. Until I read Bill's new first chapter, when I thought of Bill, I remembered a researcher who had uncovered the fact in a CE that it was Bobby Hale's mother Virginia who sent Oswald from the Texas State Emp. office to A job interview at Leslie Welding. The contents of Bill's book will be read long after any reaction to it of mine has vanished.

I have no agenda, Lee, but I do admit to becoming a disagreeable and perhaps annoying presence in an increasing number of instances.
I question everyting I read as time permits. I respect your research and conclusions almost always because you demonstrate sincerity, you come prepared, and you always question the assertions of the authorities. Considering your feedback today, I will work on limiting the frequency and length of points I feel a need to emphasize.
Tom,

Just a couple of quick points.  

The only "mistake" that I think you have made is the way in which you wrote what you wrote.  I said it read like you were beginning to "mock" Bill's work.  I have no problem with you writing critically about published works and have neither thought, nor claimed, that you are making a "mistake" by criticising any of Simpich's statements.  I do disagree with you slightly about what Bill is suggesting in the first chapter of his book because I do think Webster "resembled" Oswald but I agree with you that Bill could have used less definitive language -  however we can discuss this on the other thread.

I know you have no agenda and have not claimed that you have.

Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here and get back to the important stuff.  I appreciate your comments about my sincerity and hope you know that my "feedback" was coming from the right place.

Back to Snyder.

Regards

Lee

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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Thu 17 Oct 2013, 4:29 am

Chapter Two of Bill's new book is now available to read at Mary Ferrell:

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Featured_State_Secret_Chapter2

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my appreciation, and thinking about the issues raised

Post by Bill Simpich on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 2:43 pm

Good to hear from you all, I appreciate being read, that's what any writer wants.  I put it on the internet precisely so people could read the links immediately and comment.  Any comments that might enable me to address or fix certain issues before the serialization is over are especially appreciated.

Tom, good to hear from you, we have worked together before.  My point was limited, but important.  I think they resembled each other, that's why I sought out photos that brought that out.   That would get the Soviets' attention.  They didn't see a lot of Americans as it was.

Greg, my point was that Snyder was the policy-maker.  Yes, there was grumbling from Washington, and I get your point, but it didn't get Snyder to change his policy, or custom if you will.  By 1961-1962, the net result for Oswald was that Snyder had the State Department bureaucracy doing cartwheels to aid somebody who had walked into the Embassy and announced his intention to engage in espionage against his own country.

The interesting thing for me is that it seems clear Snyder didn't believe Webster was a true defector, he thought that he was caught up in some kind of American spying operation.  Here's an excerpt from his letter after Webster's defection and three days before Lee Oswald showed up.  He knew how to cover his bases...

"Snyder explained that his decision on these cases was to take the 'passive approach…and take no action concerning his citizenship unless and until he contacts the Embassy, or the Department specifically directs us to do so.'”

My goal for the book is to make the case for the impersonation of Oswald.  I've thought about it, and believe that if we can put forth a forceful case for it, a lot of other issues fall in place.  New investigation?  Not impossible.  More likely is a new push to release more documents.   I have written a proposal for a new JFK Records Act, which would essentially allow private citizens to lead the investigation with subpoena power, which I think is the best model.  Any ideas about how to build such an effort or improve such a law would also be great.

Best regards, Bill

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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by greg parker on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 4:38 pm

Bill, thanks for stopping by.

Sorry if I sound pedantic, but you refer to it as "State Department Policy". My point was basically the same as your reply - that Snyder was doing his own thing. When State finally answered his inquiry, he was told in effect, the law is the law. Our policy is to follow the letter of it - which he clearly did not. 

Petrulli was the previous case I had in mind (not Riciardelli, as I said previously) - my suspicion is that Petrulli was a Trojan Horse to give Snyder an excuse to put Oswald off - in what was in itself, nothing but a charade.

If you don't think it needs correction, so be it. It is a minor point, and we actually appear to agree that Snyder was playing games with State.                          

My view is that a new investigation is more than warranted. But your idea is the next best thing, and could lead to another investigation anyway.  I hope everyone gets behind it.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Posts : 3448
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Re: Snyder - just following policy?

Post by Guest on Mon 21 Oct 2013, 4:48 pm

It is good to see you posting here, Bill. Thank you for taking the time to explain, and for setting a great example, sharing your book chapters at the same time others are rushing to cash in on anticipated 50th anniversary attention.

This is a bit tongue in cheek, but maybe Bush '41 couild be enlisted in a new JFK Records Act lobbying effort. It must cause him consternation that information as obscure as this has become available at classmates.com. How many yearbooks of a graduating class of just ten high school seniors could have originally been printed? The editor of the year book even saw fit to include a list of ten former classmates from the original freshman class.



Joe went off to Choate from the same school in 1938, brother Peter followed in 1941, Devine probably attended all of K-12, his father was president of the school's board in 1939.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22near+the+Malecon+on+the+edge+of+old+Havana.+their+project
Misadventures of a Fly Fisherman: My Life with and Without Papa
books.google.com/books?id=hW_ZAAAAMAAJ
Jack Hemingway - 1987 -
(in 1955)....from it for several days, during which time I made contact with Joe Dryer and his brother, Peter, who was sharing digs with him in an apartment near the Malecon on the edge of old Havana.....
The images of those two pages from the high school yearbook of such an obscure, small class of an upstate New York private school would have been a nice enhancement to Joan's recent book, had anyone known to look for them.
Our Man in Haiti: George de Mohrenschildt and the CIA in the Nightmare Republic - Joan Mellen
On April, 19, the de Mohrenschildts left for New York.....Clemard Joseph Charles departed from Haiti for Newy York on April 23. Upon his arrival, he was interviewed by a CIA informant who is identified in the CIA document describing their meeting only as a "former journalist." ......
In New York, Chalres me with kenaf partner, Joe Dryer. Charles had sent a limousine to the hotel to pick up Dryer and his partner, Clark Cassidy. Dryer recounts that he and Cassidy both were fond of Charles. Charles had a secretary wwith him, a woman who, as Dryer knew through his own intellligence connections, had been planted on Charles by CIA......   Dryer denies that he arranged for a credit check de Mohrenschildt, but given his concern for Charles, and his doubts about de Mohrenschildt, it seem that it could only have been he, a businessman "dealing in the import and export of fibers."

  The ensuing credit report, issuing from the Republic National Bank in Dallas, arrived on June 14. It was "favorable concerning de Mohresnschildt's credit." The evidence suggests that, along the way, Dryer had confided what he knew about Clemard Joseph Charles and George de Mohrenschildt to Army intelligence. Dryer's views, as outlined above, appear almost verbatim, in the released files of 90 Deuce....
..........    It is April 25, 1963 at the Knickerbocker Club at 2 East 62 Stree, immediately east of Fifth Avenue in New York City. Two CIA operatives are conferring in the club's library: C. Frank Stone, III, who is responsible for CIA's WUBRINY operations, and Thomas J. Devine, CIA's principal asset on the project.....Although his resume may claim otherwise, Devine continued to participate in CIA operations....

,,,,,,...Then  - in 1963 - investment in Haiti became no longer safe. One day, Dryer sate behing a card table in an open field. It was payday. Stacks of gourdes (worth twenty cents each) were piled in front of him as his workers lined up to be paid. Dryer's manager had hired four soldiers from the Haitian army to serve as guards.

  Suddenly, thirteen or fourteen of the Tontons Macoutes materialized out of nowhere in their blue dungarees and sunglasses. They were armed with rifles. Standing at first on the perimeter, they circled the area. Then they began to inch forward, their rifles pointed inward. Slowly they closed the circle. Dryer quickly dispatched his brother Peter to the army garrison at St. Marc for assistance.

  Soon the Tontons Macoute had kidnapped the four soldiers Dryer had hired for protection. Silence descened over the crowd as an army truck drove up before the Tontons Macoute could escape with their prey. The captain demanded the return of the soldiers and Tontons Macoute disappeared. It was a pyrrhic victory. The Tontons Macout soon gained sway over the Haitian army. Now security for American business became a distant memory.

 In 1963, Dryer closed his kenaf operation for good. Three of his best machine operators had been kidnapped....

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