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FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

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FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Sun 01 Dec 2013, 3:31 pm

Reading over the WC testimony of FBI SA Robert Frazier, I came upon this passage. He is testifying as to their attempts to identify the mangled bullet recovered from General (retired) Edwin Walker's residence. The WC and SA Frazier are doing their very best to tie this bullet to the alleged rifle of Oswald, the 6.5 mm Carcano.

"Mr. Eisenberg.
Can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to?
Mr. Frazier.
Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or 13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately .267 inch."

Sounds impressive, doesn't it? SA Frazier even has the proper bullet diameter for the 6.5 Carcano bullet of .267" (.268" actually) as opposed to the typical bullet diameter of .264" for all other 6.5mm/.257 calibre rifles.

However, let us check his mathematics out. He tells us the land widths are .07" and the groove widths are .13".

.07 + .13 = .20 and, as there are four of each, .20 x 4 = .80" as the circumference of the bullet.
Diameter is found by dividing circumference by pi so .80 divided by 3.1416 = .254"

Uh oh, it seems SA Frazier has made a slight mathematical error here, arriving at the answer of .267" instead of the correct answer of .254". Or is it more than that? Guess what the figure .254 corresponds to?
Believe it or not, .254" is the bore diameter of every 6.5mm rifle. This measurement is taken from the top of one land in the barrel to the top of an opposing land, as opposed to the Carcano groove diameter of .268", measured from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of an opposing groove.

Could Frazier have been conducting that worst form of science, where the answer is predetermined and the data is altered to match it?

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 2:40 pm

Does this make sense to everyone or have I not explained it well enough? I have basically shown that SA Frazier's mathematics show that Walker was shot at by a rifle of a smaller calibre than the 6.5 mm Carcano, and that Frazier's own numbers exonerate Oswald of the Walker shooting.

Are we not just a little excited at this revelation?

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by greg parker on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 3:18 pm

Traveller11 wrote:Does this make sense to everyone or have I not explained it well enough? I have basically shown that SA Frazier's mathematics show that Walker was shot at by a rifle of a smaller calibre than the 6.5 mm Carcano, and that Frazier's own numbers exonerate Oswald of the Walker shooting.

Are we not just a little excited at this revelation?
Now that you've dumbed it down enough for me...  geek 

Though most already knew the bullet was described differently in April, 1963 than it was post-assassination, this helps clear it up even more.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 3:46 pm

greg parker wrote:
Traveller11 wrote:Does this make sense to everyone or have I not explained it well enough? I have basically shown that SA Frazier's mathematics show that Walker was shot at by a rifle of a smaller calibre than the 6.5 mm Carcano, and that Frazier's own numbers exonerate Oswald of the Walker shooting.

Are we not just a little excited at this revelation?
Now that you've dumbed it down enough for me...  geek 

Though most already knew the bullet was described differently in April, 1963 than it was post-assassination, this helps clear it up even more.
Groovy! Nice find.   
 
Why is the MC referred to as a 6.5 mm caliber rifle? If the proper Carcano bullet diameter is 0.268, that converts to 6.8 mm. Is the 6.5 mm designation based on the distance between to tops of the opposing lands which would give a slightly smaller diameter than the larger diameter measured from the bottom of the grooves?
 
It sure does appear that Frazier did a Mr. Bungle* with the numbers. Maybe like Allen Dulles, he felt nobody would ever check his calculations let alone read his testimony in the first place.

* Only for the curious:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnTGulIZZTE

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 5:00 pm

When a rifle barrel is made, a hole is first "bored" from one end of the barrel material to the other. The diameter of this hole is then known as the "bore" or "calibre" of the rifle; in this case, 6.5 mm. Following this, rifling grooves are machined into the sides of this hole, making spiral internal grooves the length of the rifle barrel. The diameter from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of a facing groove is known as the "groove diameter" and this is also the diameter of the bullet; in this case, 6.8 mm or .268".

Most rifle calibres are designated this way although there are notable (and confusing) exceptions. One is the .308 calibre rifle, known in Europe as the 7.62x51 mm NATO cartridge. It actually shoots a .30 calibre bullet (.300") which is the bore diameter of the rifle (as you noted, measured from the top of one land to the top of a facing land). The rifling grooves are .004" deep and, as there are grooves on each side, .300" + .004" + .004" = .308" , the diameter of the bullet.

Another familiar cartridge is the .303 British (7.7x56 mmR), the standard military cartridge in Britain and the Commonwealth until the 1950's. Properly designated (as an Englishman should be), it has a bore diameter or calibre of .303" and a groove and bullet diameter of .312".

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 5:11 pm

"Now that you've dumbed it down enough for me...   

Though most already knew the bullet was described differently in April, 1963 than it was post-assassination, this helps clear it up even more."

Interestingly, the Walker bullet was described by DPD detectives as being "steel jacketed", as opposed to the copper alloy jacketed Western Cartridge Co. bullets found after the assassination.

This opens a very confusing can of worms, though.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 02 Dec 2013, 5:48 pm

Traveller11 wrote:When a rifle barrel is made, a hole is first "bored" from one end of the barrel material to the other. The diameter of this hole is then known as the "bore" or "calibre" of the rifle; in this case, 6.5 mm. Following this, rifling grooves are machined into the sides of this hole, making spiral internal grooves the length of the rifle barrel. The diameter from the bottom of one groove to the bottom of a facing groove is known as the "groove diameter" and this is also the diameter of the bullet; in this case, 6.8 mm or .268".

Most rifle calibres are designated this way although there are notable (and confusing) exceptions. One is the .308 calibre rifle, known in Europe as the 7.62x51 mm NATO cartridge. It actually shoots a .30 calibre bullet (.300") which is the bore diameter of the rifle (as you noted, measured from the top of one land to the top of a facing land). The rifling grooves are .004" deep and, as there are grooves on each side, .300" + .004" + .004" = .308" , the diameter of the bullet.

Another familiar cartridge is the .303 British (7.7x56 mmR), the standard military cartridge in Britain and the Commonwealth until the 1950's. Properly designated (as an Englishman should be), it has a bore diameter or calibre of .303" and a groove and bullet diameter of .312".
You had me at "notable (and confusing) exceptions," T11. I reckon some things are just the way they are. I think I get it now.
 
Thanks for the clarification!

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 6:14 am

"Interestingly, the Walker bullet was described by DPD detectives as being "steel jacketed", as opposed to the copper alloy jacketed Western Cartridge Co. bullets found after the assassination.
 
This opens a very confusing can of worms, though."
 
--------------------------------------------------------
 
And what can of worms is that, you might ask? Well, the truth of the matter is, steel jacketed bullets are never recognizable as steel jacketed, for the simple fact that steel oxidizes and corrodes very easily. For this reason, steel jacketed bullets (usually originating in China and Europe) are given a light coating of another metal, usually copper or a copper alloy, to protect the steel from oxidation. Metals such as zinc or nickel are sometimes used as coating material, as well. Some manufacturers of pistol bullets will put a nickel plating over the copper alloy jacket of a bullet to enhance the appearance of the bullet and boost sales.
 
Often, the only way of determining if a bullet is steel jacketed is by attempting to pick it up with a magnet.
 
There is a possibility here that can be, unfortunately, tied directly to the 6.5 mm Carcano.
 
Simply because only four cartridges were ever found for LHO's 6.5 mm Carcano (three empty and one live) and these were all made by the American firm Western Cartridge Co. and loaded with copper alloy jacketed bullets, it is assumed that all 6.5 mm Carcano bullets available in the USA would be WCC copper alloy jacketed. This was not actually the case. There was available, on American markets, 6.5x52mm Carcano military surplus ammunition made by the Italian firm Societa Metallurgica Italiana (SMI for short). While many of the 6.5 mm bullets made by SMI were jacketed with a copper alloy, and had a copper coloured appearance, SMI also jacketed lead bullets with a cupro-nickel jacket that had a silvery appearance to it. To complicate things further, they also made a steel jacketed bullet that was clad in nickel; once again, having a silvery appearance.
 
In essence, I am saying that the attempted murder of Edwin Walker could very well have been attempted with a 6.5 mm Carcano.
 
The question is, did the DPD detectives know enough about rifle bullets to realize the Walker bullet had a steel jacket beneath a nickel plating, or did they assume the silvery coating to be steel? Either way, the true Walker bullet likely did not look like a copper alloy jacketed bullet made by the WCC.
 
I think it highly likely that investigators in the JFK assassination, desperately trying to pin the attempted murder of Edwin Walker on LHO, took one look at the bullet recovered from the Walker residence, with its silvery coating, and decided to replace it with a pre-mangled WCC 6.5 mm Carcano copper alloy clad bullet, just for the sake of keeping the evidence simple and more convincing and having all of the bullets copper coloured and matching.


Correction: I should point out here that as well as making steel jacketed 6.5mm Carcano bullets with a cupro-nickel anti-corrosion coating, it has been pointed out to me that SMI made steel jacketed bullets coated with the copper alloy known as "gilding metal".


Last edited by Traveller11 on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Martin Hay on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 8:15 am

Robert,

I think the most important point to remember about the so-called "Walker bullet" is that Walker himself was certain that CE573 was NOT the bullet recovered from his home. When he saw it on TV he wrote the FBI:

"The bullet before your select committee called the Walker bullet is not the Walker bullet. It is not the bullet that was fired at me and taken out of my house by the Dallas City Police on April 10, 1963. The bullet you have was not gotten from me or taken out of my house by anyone at anytime"

And then wrote the HSCA:

The bullet used and pictured on the TV by US Senate G.Robert Blakey Committee on Assassinations is a ridiculous substitute for a bullet completely mutilated by such obstruction, baring no resemblance to any unfired bullet in shape or form.

I saw the hunk of lead, picked up by a policeman in my house, and I took it from him and I inspected it carefully. There is no mistake. There has been a substitution for the bullet fired by Oswald and taken out of my house."


This passage from the Warren Commission testimony of Robert Frazier is quite revealing IMHO:

Mr. Eisenberg....I would like to state for the record that this bullet was found in the Walker residence after the attempted assassination of General Walker.
Mr. Mccloy. As far as you know, we have no proof of that yet?
Mr. Eisenberg. That is right (3H438)


It is also interesting to note that CE573 is metallurgically distinct from the JFK assassination bullets. Those bullets had a lead core in which antimony was the major impurity. CE573 on the other hand has tin as the major impurity. This is because the lead core of bullets is usually made from scrap lead, being the cheapest lead available. The lead is often hardened by alloying it with antimony. However, during World War II there was a shortage of antimony so tin was used instead.So CE573 and the assassination bullets apparently came from two different batches made years apart - one during the war and one after.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 11:11 am

Excellent post, Martin. I wonder at what point General Walker was told to "Ix-nay on the ullet-bay" if he wanted to remain healthy?
 
I also wonder if the real Walker bullet was swapped for CE 573 for the reason I mentioned, that of the "steel" jacket vs. the copper jacket, or if the real Walker bullet had so little of it identifiable as a bullet that there was no way to connect it to the 6.5 mm Carcano?
 
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!"

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Martin Hay on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 6:05 pm

Thanks, Robert.

I imagine it was the latter. I think the Bureau purposely substituted the real Walker bullet for a Carcano round that couldn't be conclusively matched to the rifle so they didn't have to commit themselves. They could just say it appeared consistent with Oswald's rifle without offering a definite conclusion. In this way, they gave themselves an out.

Also, I don't think it was necessary to threaten Walker. He was never shown CE573 during his Commission testimony. It wasn't until the late 70s that he saw it on TV and realised the bullet had been swapped. But by then they could more plausibly dismiss him as mistaken due to the passage of time.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 7:42 pm

Just to play the Devil's advocate here, the Walker bullet was described by DPD detectives as "steel jacketed". Could it have been a) a cupro-nickel jacketed 6.5 mm Carcano bullet made by SMI? b) a steel jacketed, nickel plated 6.5 mm Carcano bullet made by SMI, as well?

I'm also very impressed with the high tin content of CE 573, as opposed to the high antimony content of the other WCC bullets. I have not seen this material before and, if CE 573 is a real WCC 6.5 mm Carcano bullet, and tin was only used to harden lead during WWII when there was a shortage of antimony, it opens up a world of possibilities and helps to corroborate research done by Mark Lane and others concerning the manufacture date of the WCC ammunition.

May I ask where you came across the tin/antimony comparison material?

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Martin Hay on Tue 03 Dec 2013, 9:03 pm

Traveller11 wrote:Just to play the Devil's advocate here, the Walker bullet was described by DPD detectives as "steel jacketed". Could it have been a) a cupro-nickel jacketed 6.5 mm Carcano bullet made by SMI? b) a steel jacketed, nickel plated 6.5 mm Carcano bullet made by SMI, as well?

I'm also very impressed with the high tin content of CE 573, as opposed to the high antimony content of the other WCC bullets. I have not seen this material before and, if CE 573 is a real WCC 6.5 mm Carcano bullet, and tin was only used to harden lead during WWII when there was a shortage of antimony, it opens up a world of possibilities and helps to corroborate research done by Mark Lane and others concerning the manufacture date of the WCC ammunition.

May I ask where you came across the tin/antimony comparison material?
That came from Donald Thomas, Hear No Evil, pages 146-147.


Last edited by Martin Hay on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 4:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Wed 04 Dec 2013, 2:00 am

Thanks for that, Martin.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 4:57 am

Found another example of SA Frazier's mathematical skills. From the testimony of SA Frazier at the Clay Shaw trial:

"Q: Now, Mr. Frazier, the -- with reference to the rifle which was examined by you, and the live ammunition that was turned over to you, that is, one round of live ammunition, could you tell me, as an expert, what would be the approximate speed of the projectile of that live round of ammunition if fired from the rifle you examined?
A: The velocity at the muzzle would be in the neighborhood of 1,965 feet per second. This velocity can vary as much as 50 feet per second, I would say closer to 40 feet per second, in either direction from this average. However, I tested ammunition similar to this, made by the same company, and it did average 1,965 feet per second at the muzzle.
Q: Now, to what extent would this speed diminish over a distance, say, of 265 feet?
A: A rule-of-thumb estimate would give you a decrease in velocity of 265, that is, it reduces approximately one foot per second in velocity for each foot traveled.
Q: So that at the end of 265 feet, it would be going approximately how fast?
A: The actual figures which I have calculated on that I do not have with me, but generally speaking it would be traveling 1,800 feet per second."

Funny, I subtract 265 from 1965 and get 1700. Oh well, no one else at the trial picked up on it, either.

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Colin Crow on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 9:51 am

Martin and Robert, I have done my own study on the "Walker bullet" using Guinn's HSCA report and later that of Spiegleman. The thread can be found here....

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t582-walker-bullet-and-naa

I believe it demolishes the notion that Oswald performed the deeds attributed to him by the WC simply with a box or so of WCC ammo. The really interesting thing to me is the fact that the unfired round is an almost exact match for CE573. 

Did Oswald originally buy SMI ammo?
Who ever did the shooting used WCC ammo. 

Martin, can you tell me more about the Thomas tin analysis for CE573? How and when was this done?

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Re: FBI Special Agent Robert Frazier does Mathematics

Post by Guest on Sat 04 Jan 2014, 12:30 pm

Colin Crow wrote:Martin and Robert, I have done my own study on the "Walker bullet" using Guinn's HSCA report and later that of Spiegleman. The thread can be found here....

http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t582-walker-bullet-and-naa

I believe it demolishes the notion that Oswald performed the deeds attributed to him by the WC simply with a box or so of WCC ammo. The really interesting thing to me is the fact that the unfired round is an almost exact match for CE573. 

Did Oswald originally buy SMI ammo?
Who ever did the shooting used WCC ammo. 

Martin, can you tell me more about the Thomas tin analysis for CE573? How and when was this done?

Hi Colin

I still find it interesting that the "original" Walker bullet was described as steel jacketed by the two DPD detectives attending the Walker shooting. It is a shame that no one ever asked them, or Edwin Walker, to expand on this observation.

While it is tempting to theorize that Oswald bought either a box of SMI 6.5mm Carcano cupro-nickel jacketed bullets or a box of
SMI 6.5mm Carcano steel jacketed bullets, there is no real proof the Walker bullet was even a 6.5mm Carcano. Plus, considering that this was only eighteen years after the end of WWII, either or both of these detectives could have been European veterans, and may have known exactly what they were seeing when they described the Walker bullet as steel jacketed. Whether the steel jacketed bullet was coated with copper, cupro-nickel or zinc would have made little difference if the bullet was as mangled as Walker claimed it to be, as the steel jacket would surely be exposed; inside and out.

I, too, am very interested in the Thomas tin analysis for CE 573.

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