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Tax Records

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Tax Records

Post by Guest on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 4:22 am

I received permission from Robert Howard to cross post this in its entirety from the Education Forum.  Robert is one of the most knowledgeable researchers out there and I appreciate him letting me do this.  I am interested in his post, not primarily concerning the tax returns although I will have something to say about them, but for a name that appears in the content:

Posted by Robert Howard Sunday 01/05/2013 @ 11:16 PM:


I probably wont win any popularity contest for posting this, but hopefully we all agree that when there is a discrepancy in this case, John R & Minnie Smith as John Armstrong's ersatz other Oswald ID, will not shoot the messenger
but deal with the information presented.
 
Some of what John Armstrong wrote about John R. & Minnie Smith is not exactly accurate. For instance he wrote, in Harvey and Lee that the Warren Commission did not have a single document about the two, which is not correct.


http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr04.html

The connection that I discovered is in two WC documents, and it is very easy not to notice.
 
The clue that the topic is a little more complicated than just a oblique name to file Lee Harvey Oswald's real tax returns in is in CD 7 page 700 and the entire CD 425, 8 pages
Commission Document 425 - IRS Summary of Tax Returns dated 17 Feb 1964 8 pages WASHINGTON, D.C.

[url=tel:179-40001-10399]179-40001-10399[/url]

1957-1962 JOHN R & MINNIE SMITH 6731 Norway, Dallas, Texas
1961-1962 OSCAR A. & RAE RUBENSTEIN* 5638 N. Bernard, Chicago, Ill
FY 8-62 Time-In Lounge

However, in the 1964 Dallas Residential White Pages on page 725 in black and white there is a listing for Smith John R 6731 Norway exactly as is mentioned in CD 425
 
Then there are the MINNIE SMITH listings on page 727 of the Dallas Residential White Pages

Smith Minnie 3603 Kenilworth HA1-3376
Smith Minnie  2200 Stovall Dr. FR6-6272
Smith Minnie Mrs 5019 Victor TA6-2620*
Smith Minnie A. 2626 Munger RI8-3965
Smith Minnie E. Mrs 3023 Fordham FR4-2645
Smith Minnie Fay 419 Av A WH3-7213
Smith Minnie Kate 3704 Colonial HA1-9554
Smith Minnie Lee 4428 University Blvd LA6-3506

* In 1945-46 Marguerite and Lee Oswald lived at 4801 Victor, Dallas, Texas see CD 107


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10507&relPageId=15


only other connection
SMITH, JOHN R.
Sources: CD 7, pp. 699-700

Mary's Comments:     A Mrs. Smith called Mrs. Roberts, Bernard Weissman's landlady, and left the above number for Weissman to call. Later, Mrs. Roberts called the number and was told it did belong to the Smith family but they did not know Weissman. A "Bernie Smith" had picked up Weissman's belongings.

Note the JOHN R Smith referenced in CD 7 page 699 was the same JOHN R SMITH who lived at 6731 Norway


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10408&relPageId=722

 
Where it gets a little odd, is the complete lack of documentation, I was able to find about John R and Minnie Smith


The blurb below was about all I found which was just an oil and gas listing, which could even be a coincidence


Fort Worth Star-Telegram, page 14
February 24, 1953
Stanolind Oil & Gas Company
No 1 Minnie Smith, et al Section 45

 
 
CD 425, in my opinion raises many more questions than it answers, for instance who are Oscar and Rae Rubenstein, among others; and I would even concede that John Armstrong might even be onto something, because my experience is that these types of situations, are generally a lot more complicated than some plain vanilla explanation. Where I suppose I differ from Armstrong's view is John R. and Minnie Smith could have been anything from


1) used by the persons who prepared the documents as part of an attempt to confuse the reader, to
2) fellow elusive sources of "information" such as Earlene Roberts, whose connection to Bertha Cheek was very suspect even to Warren Commission attorneys, to
3) some type of false suspects, I sure do not pretend to know.   

End of Robert Howard's post

Guest
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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 6:49 am

Lee Farley wrote:I received permission from Robert Howard to cross post this in its entirety from the Education Forum.  Robert is one of the most knowledgeable researchers out there and I appreciate him letting me do this.  I am interested in his post, not primarily concerning the tax returns although I will have something to say about them, but for a name that appears in the content:

Posted by Robert Howard Sunday 01/05/2013 @ 11:16 PM:


I probably wont win any popularity contest for posting this, but hopefully we all agree that when there is a discrepancy in this case, John R & Minnie Smith as John Armstrong's ersatz other Oswald ID, will not shoot the messenger
but deal with the information presented.
 
Some of what John Armstrong wrote about John R. & Minnie Smith is not exactly accurate. For instance he wrote, in Harvey and Lee that the Warren Commission did not have a single document about the two, which is not correct.


http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JA/DR/.dr04.html

The connection that I discovered is in two WC documents, and it is very easy not to notice.
 
The clue that the topic is a little more complicated than just a oblique name to file Lee Harvey Oswald's real tax returns in is in CD 7 page 700 and the entire CD 425, 8 pages
Commission Document 425 - IRS Summary of Tax Returns dated 17 Feb 1964 8 pages WASHINGTON, D.C.

[url=tel-40001-10399]179-40001-10399[/url]

1957-1962 JOHN R & MINNIE SMITH 6731 Norway, Dallas, Texas
1961-1962 OSCAR A. & RAE RUBENSTEIN* 5638 N. Bernard, Chicago, Ill
FY 8-62 Time-In Lounge

However, in the 1964 Dallas Residential White Pages on page 725 in black and white there is a listing for Smith John R 6731 Norway exactly as is mentioned in CD 425
 
Then there are the MINNIE SMITH listings on page 727 of the Dallas Residential White Pages

Smith Minnie 3603 Kenilworth HA1-3376
Smith Minnie  2200 Stovall Dr. FR6-6272
Smith Minnie Mrs 5019 Victor TA6-2620*
Smith Minnie A. 2626 Munger RI8-3965
Smith Minnie E. Mrs 3023 Fordham FR4-2645
Smith Minnie Fay 419 Av A WH3-7213
Smith Minnie Kate 3704 Colonial HA1-9554
Smith Minnie Lee 4428 University Blvd LA6-3506

* In 1945-46 Marguerite and Lee Oswald lived at 4801 Victor, Dallas, Texas see CD 107


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10507&relPageId=15


only other connection
SMITH, JOHN R.
Sources: CD 7, pp. 699-700

Mary's Comments:     A Mrs. Smith called Mrs. Roberts, Bernard Weissman's landlady, and left the above number for Weissman to call. Later, Mrs. Roberts called the number and was told it did belong to the Smith family but they did not know Weissman. A "Bernie Smith" had picked up Weissman's belongings.

Note the JOHN R Smith referenced in CD 7 page 699 was the same JOHN R SMITH who lived at 6731 Norway


https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10408&relPageId=722

 
Where it gets a little odd, is the complete lack of documentation, I was able to find about John R and Minnie Smith


The blurb below was about all I found which was just an oil and gas listing, which could even be a coincidence


Fort Worth Star-Telegram, page 14
February 24, 1953
Stanolind Oil & Gas Company
No 1 Minnie Smith, et al Section 45

 
 
CD 425, in my opinion raises many more questions than it answers, for instance who are Oscar and Rae Rubenstein, among others; and I would even concede that John Armstrong might even be onto something, because my experience is that these types of situations, are generally a lot more complicated than some plain vanilla explanation. Where I suppose I differ from Armstrong's view is John R. and Minnie Smith could have been anything from


1) used by the persons who prepared the documents as part of an attempt to confuse the reader, to
2) fellow elusive sources of "information" such as Earlene Roberts, whose connection to Bertha Cheek was very suspect even to Warren Commission attorneys, to
3) some type of false suspects, I sure do not pretend to know.   

End of Robert Howard's post
Thanks Lee -- and thanks to Robert.

The Smiths were also discussed in this thread:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18558&page=6

From post 82:
Steven Gaal:
Curiously, and without explanation, the names of John Smith and Minnie Smith appear in the JFK collection at the National Archives. But the only items listed for either person are federal income tax returns which are marked "referred....postponed in full".
These are the same years as the returns which are marked "referred....postponed in full" for Marguerite Oswald. Unlike Marguerite Oswald, the names of John and Minnie Smith cannot be found anywhere else in the realm of the Kennedy assassination- not in the National Archives files, the Warren Commission documents, HSCA files, nor anywhere. This suggests the possibility that "John Smith" and "Minnie Smith" are psuedonyms which were used to file federal income tax returns for the real Lee Oswald and his tall, nice-looking mother, Marguerite. Otherwise, who are these people and what possible relevance do they or their tax returns have to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Greg Parker
This is just more rabid speculation. They were not pseudonyms. His full name was John Ray Smith and he was born Jan 9, 1901. Their address was 6731 Norway, Dallas - a 6 bedroom, 6 bathroom home.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Tax Records

Post by Guest on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 8:03 pm

Robert Howard and Bill Kelly do not seem to have sense (scruples, discernment....) enough to come in out of the rain. However, others are flawed to an extent they make Robert and Bill appear principled and perceptive.

(If it ain't happening to me,it ain't happening...."thank you John for reopening your forum...." "thank you, John, I'll have another...")
Post away, my friends, do not concern yourselves with the deleted and the banned.

I did not comment in the Ralph Yates thread because conclusions were drawn and accusations were made with impressive certainty. Carry on....no questions were asked. Inaccuracy is an expected and an acceptable outcome.

My experiences in 2013 have made me intolerant of cheap shots and false accusations, but I resolve to admit to and accept  accurate negative opinions and criticisms levelled towards me.
(Relax,Tom...you are among friends... I will risk sharing my hope that this is still the case.... )

If you've read this far, Nathan Wyll was the brother of Minnie Smith....

[PDF]
HSCA Volume IX: V. Possible Associations Between Jack Ruby and ...
www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/.../HSCA_Vol9_5G_Chronologies.pdf‎
Cuban trip and thought it was for the purpose of obtaining nightclub acts . ...... Cct. 2, 1963---------- Ruby tells Nathan Wyll (on the street near Baker Hotel, CD 105, p. ... an ex-Dallas News nightclub reporter who is now in the travel business,.

Minnie's grave:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=16168810

Minnie's and Nathan's sister's recent obit:
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dallasmorningnews/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=130879791



http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/43868527/
The Cameron Herald 1 June 1967 › Page 6
.......
Rites In Dallas For Issie Wyll Funeral services for Issie Wyll. R6. were held at 4 p.m Thursday at Congregation Tiferet Israel, Dallas. He was the father of Mrs. Irvin j Bornfeld of Cameron Mr. Wyll was born and educated in SuwMki, Russia (now in Poland1 and came to the United States in 1900 For a time he was associated with a Dallas bakery, and later owned and operated the Rex and Dixie theatres in Dallas. He was engaged in the real estate business 20 years until his retirement 13 years ago He served 14 succesive years as president of Congregation Tiferet Israel and 12 years ago was named lifetime honorary president. He also was a member of the Dallas Hebrew Free Loan Association. He is survived by his wife. Mrs. Fannie Tobolowsky Wyll; four sons. Max, Esir, Abe and Nathan Wyll, all of Dallas; five daughters. Mrs Nell Ravkind. Mrs John R. Smith and Mrs. Joe Berman, ail of Dallas, Mrs Jake Fradkin of Galveston and Mrs. Bornfeld; 17 grandchildren and 11 great-grandchildren. ...


DALLAS, Texas (TX) Political Contributions by Individuals ...
www.city-data.com/elec2/82/elec-DALLAS-TX-82-part2.html‎
WILLIAM CARL BLOCK (ALPHA AVIATION INC), (Zip code: 75235) $500 to ...... NATHAN WYLL (ALPHA TRAVEL CORP), (Zip code: 75230) $1000 to HUMAN ..
I lean toward concluding that Minnie's husband John R Smith was a son of Henry S. Smith.

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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 9:34 pm

Tom Scully wrote:Robert Howard and Bill Kelly do not seem to have sense (scruples, discernment....) enough to come in out of the rain. However, others are flawed to an extent they make Robert and Bill appear principled and perceptive.
I think by and large, people hang around particular forums for a whole range of reasons. I wouldn't be judging anyone who has never had any problems there for staying there. 

There are those who appear to believe that this has become a home for disgruntled ex ed-forum members and their supporters. If that's all it is, and is ever going to be, then I'll fold up the tent now. 

Stop worrying about what others are doing, or what they should or shouldn't do.

Regardless of the initial reason people came here, it has become a great group. And it is the members who make it that. We shouldn't be expending an abundance of our time and energies denouncing other groups or other researchers.

That's not to say "don't ever do it here" - it is what it is... a hope that "getting something out of your system" allows you to let it go for awhile and move on... at least until the next shit-storm blows up.... and you need to vent all over again...  Go for it! 

WRT the Smiths... the house itself has an interesting history
http://dfw.blockshopper.com/property/00000411325000000/6731_norway_road

Scroll down to "notes"

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Tax Records

Post by Guest on Tue 07 Jan 2014, 11:49 pm

I refuse to be defined by people who show no concern, not even about the fate of their own posts, individuals who indicate no ability or inclination to notice right or react to wrong. Examples set by Martin Hay, Robert Charles-Dunne, Daniel Wayne Dunn, and Gary Loughran were lost on the Varnellesque individuals you now post allowances for.

People hang around their own homes and around the homes of friends but not as enthusiastically when they are torched by their owner. Even David Reitzes can detect and react to what is obviously abuse and gross disrespect.

As far as 'moving on," I can tell you it is probably easier and correct when you are not falsely accused and your reputation smeared repeatedly by a pillar of "the community" who does not hesitate to invent a new false charge promptly after each prior one is proven false.

No, we are not a forum of the disgruntled. We object to being lied to, to people who pay only lip service to the primacy of accuracy, and to people who act as if the attacks some of us have recently been subjected to, are appropriate to feign unawareness of or no reaction to.

The outcome will not be that "the disgruntled former members went off to....." It must instead be that if you commit to a course of smears, abuse, contempt for truth and even for the contributions collected from your own
community, there will be consequences for you and for those who supported you actively or silently, standing idly by. I see with my own eyes the effect on Simkin of those who firmly and quickly communicated to him,
"No!! This is wrong, you have not presented justification for your accusations or your actions, and we have to distance ourselves from you."

The silence in response to Reitzes's and Varnell's questions indicate who the outcasts and the outlaws are. Those who continue to ignore the state of the Potemkin-Stepford village they still share their research and opinions on can describe me as they see fit. 

Emphasizing the lack of self respect and low standards of others comes
with costs and consequences. I will work to keep a lid on it and strive to
interest readers.

I am here because I believe I can add accurate, unique information building on the impressive work already posted on this forum, and learn from the experts who post here or are seeking a forum where what you
post this week is not deleted next week.

John Rueben Smith's birth certificate,occupation, death, and family details:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,614.msg287518.html#msg287518

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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 8:18 am

I refuse to be defined by people who show no concern, not even about the fate of their own posts, individuals who indicate no ability or inclination to notice right or react to wrong. Examples set by Martin Hay, Robert Charles-Dunne, Daniel Wayne Dunn, and Gary Loughran were lost on the Varnellesque individuals you now post allowances for.
Tom, you're not defined by the actions or inactions of others, only by your own, and I don't think Martin, Robert, Dan or Gary were trying to set any examples for any one else. They may correct me if I'm wrong. 

Nor am I making allowances for anyone. There is nothing to make allowances for. And a defense of others is not an attack against you. 


I am here because I believe I can add accurate, unique information building on the impressive work already posted on this forum, and learn from the experts who post here or are seeking a forum where what you post this week is not deleted next week

You can and you do, as shown in the following.

John Rueben Smith's birth certificate,occupation, death, and family details:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,614.msg287518.html#msg287518

Nice work. Have you established the relationship between Bernie and John and Minnie? Son?

I like lines of inquiry that seem to have been quashed by the authorities at the time. 

So this is a possible link between Ruby and the gang from CUSA? Is that how you see it?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:30 pm

I note your post at the other forum gives Smith's DOB as 6 Oct 1910 --  whereas I had previously posted at the Ed Forum that it was 9 Jan 1901. I don't remember what the source was, so I can't explain it - but I do note the weird aspect of it.

The dates in the usual US format would read

10.06.10 and
01.09.01

Almost a palindrome

And...

Yours read upside down:
01.90.01

Mine upside down
10.06.10 
is there some sort of code happening with that?  drunken

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Tax Records

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:37 pm

Greg, that's really clever.  They are almost "retrograde inversions" (to use a term from musical counterpoint) of each other.  Only thing is you have to cheat by taking the leading zero off of the day:

01.9.01 --> invert (flip vertically) = 01.6.01 --> reverse (horizontally) = 10.6.10

well... almost, if you don't reverse the 6 itself.


Last edited by Albert Rossi on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)

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Re: Tax Records

Post by Guest on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 2:18 pm

Greg,

I am not saying they were trying, only that the result of their objections and demands of proof should have been a wake up call to others who instead resemble ostriches. Calling out a committed hypocrite is reflexive if you have little tolerance of it. Bearing the consequences of standing up to abusers is a labor of love compared to opting to chew and breathe sand.




http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=274635
Sorry, we couldn't find that!


We could not find the topic that this post belongs to.


The D.O.B. observation you made is an interesting coincidence. John R. Smith's parents decided in 1940 to revise their son's name and moved his D.O.B.
from Nov. 6 to Oct. 6.

 
Harry and Rebecca played loose with their own last name and reissued their son Simon's birth certificate, too. John R Smith's wife Minnie notarized the signatures.



As far as having a theory, I hope to find a blood relationship between Bernard Schmidt and Jacob Schmitt aka John R.Smith, but it requires more than only knowing that HarrySmith's parents were Phillip and Naomi. No immigration records so far mentions Harry or his  parents emerge beyond his death cert. details, so far. Harry emigrated after 1901
but before Jacob/JohnR.was born in Nov., 1910.

Early yesterday I found that Minnie Smith was Nathan Wyll's brother, Nathan's mention in the Ruby chronology, and I became more interested.

John R. Smith's parents' graves:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=57441789

For me the draw is still the mystery of why the tax returns of the Smiths were sought in 1964. If there was nothing
interesting found in the their tax returns, the confidentiality restrictions seem to justify not making them public. 

Brother Phillip's WWI draft reg. gives up a little more.....


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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 3:34 pm

Albert Rossi wrote:Greg, that's really clever.  They are almost "retrograde inversions" (to use a term from musical counterpoint) of each other.  Only thing is you have to cheat by taking the leading zero off of the day:

01.9.01 --> invert (flip vertically) = 01.6.01 --> reverse (horizontally) = 10.6.10

well... almost, if you don't reverse the 6 itself.
Man Albert,

"retrograde inversions"? And here I was thinking I'm just talking a bunch of kaka...!

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Tax Records

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 3:50 pm

Greg, you must mean 


(also augmented).

 drunken

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Re: Tax Records

Post by Albert Rossi on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 3:57 pm

greg parker wrote:
Albert Rossi wrote:Greg, that's really clever.  They are almost "retrograde inversions" (to use a term from musical counterpoint) of each other.  Only thing is you have to cheat by taking the leading zero off of the day:

01.9.01 --> invert (flip vertically) = 01.6.01 --> reverse (horizontally) = 10.6.10

well... almost, if you don't reverse the 6 itself.


Actually, the end result is fine.  It's the middle result which has a normal six when it should have one reversed along its vertical, now that I look at it.

Just to be precise.


 clown 

Back to matters a bit more serious ...

Man Albert,

"retrograde inversions"? And here I was thinking I'm just talking a bunch of kaka...!

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Re: Tax Records

Post by greg parker on Wed 08 Jan 2014, 4:46 pm

Albert Rossi wrote:Greg, you must mean 


(also augmented).

 drunken
Some days I'm definitely more augmented than others...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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