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physical evidence: the chicken bones

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Re: physical evidence: the chicken bones

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2014, 6:57 pm

'Kay, so at 7:51 in that video, you can see day examining the rifle with what looks like a glass.

But look how Fritz is holding the rifle at that point!  Go for it! 

Hm. JC Day says:

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when Marina Oswald was asked whether or not she could identify it?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. But I didn't understand what she said. I was standing across the room from her where I couldn't understand. The interpreter said something to her and said something to Captain Fritz. I didn't catch what was said. I mentioned that because there was some talk about a Mauser and 30-06 at the time and various other things, that is the reason I mentioned it.
Mr. BELIN. You just refused to answer all questions on that, is that correct?
Mr. DAY. Yes, sir. It wasn't my place to give them that information. I didn't know whether they wanted it out yet or not.
Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air.

Smile

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Re: physical evidence: the chicken bones

Post by Guest on Tue 11 Mar 2014, 9:20 pm

Hm... anyway.... chicken bones.

So, the official story is, that Bonnie Ray Williams went down to the 5th floor with James Jarman and Harold Norman, then Williams went back up to the 6th floor and ate his lunch on the south side of the building (hence the chicken bones).

But that's not at all what happened!

At least, it's not what Bonnie Ray Williams said in his deposition.

Here's his affidavit to the Dallas PD:

I went to work about 8am this morning. I worked on the 6th floor today with Mr. Bill Denny (sp?), Charles, and a Billy Lovelady. Charles was outside and couldn't get back in, so I guess he went back home. We worked up until about 10 minutes to 12. Then we went downstairs. We rode the elevator to the 1st floor and got our lunches. I went back on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior, I don't know his last name. JUST AFTER we got on the 5th floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston from Main Street. I heard 2 shots, it sounded like they came from just above us. We ran to the west side of the building. We didn't see anybody. We looked down and saw people running and hollering. We stayed there and in a little while some officers came up. They left and then we took the elevator to the 4th floor. We stayed there awhile and then went on out. ...

But this is what the Warren Commission report says:

Norman and Jarman decided to watch the parade during the lunch hour from the 5th floor windows. From the ground floor they took the West elevator, which operates with pushbutton controls, to the 5th floor. Meanwhile, Williams had gone up to the 6th floor where he had been working and ate his lunch on the south side of that floor. Since he saw no one around when he finished his lunch, he started down on the east elevator, looking for company. He left behind his paper lunch sack, chicken bones and an empty pop bottle. Williams went down to the 5th floor, where he joined Norman and Jarman at approximately 12:20.

Affidavit of Harold Norman:


About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor and I was looking out the window which is closest to the east end of the buuilding overlooking Elm Street.
Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me. I saw all of the people down on the street rut towards the west side of the building, so I went to that side with Williams and Jarman, and looked out the west side window. We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

And here is Williams' WC testimony:

Mr. WILLIAMS. I had a bag of Fritos, I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Anything else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I believe that was all.
Mr. BALL. You say you went back upstairs. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Representative FORD.Have you ever had any trouble with the law at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Representative FORD.No difficulty as far as the law is concerned?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I have never been inside of a courthouse before.

Huh? No one asks about the 5th floor? They just conveniently ignore the affidavit Williams gave to the Dallas PD?  Shocked "Have you ever been in trouble with the law?" Where did that come from? Shocked 

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Where did you put the bones?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember exactly, but I think I put some of them back in the sack. Just as I was ready to go I threw the sack down.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the sack?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I just dropped it there.
Mr. BALL. Anywhere near the two-wheeler?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Just set it down on the floor.
Mr. BALL. There is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, 484-does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe that was the bottle--I believe. I am not sure. But it looks like it.
Mr. BALL. Did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on 484?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am really not sure about it. I don't think I left it there. I am not sure. I think I left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. As I remember-I am not sure about it. It is possible that I could have put it there.
Mr. BALL. Your memory is that the Dr. Pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Your memory is that you left the Dr. Pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember. I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. It is shown there on the floor.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you left there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went down to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took an elevator down.
Mr. BALL. You didn't go down the stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.
Mr. BALL. You took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, I intended to get out of the building, go outside.
Mr. BALL. Well, you stopped on the fifth floor. Why?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Beg pardon?
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.

Fascinating. He heard the windows moving downstairs, but in his Dallas PD affidavit he said everyone was "hollering" downstairs. And he doesn't remember anything about where he put the bones and the pop bottle, even though he seems to remember everything else.

Why is the Warren Commission going through all this trouble, belaboring the two-wheeler and all that? And why is Williams suddenly invoking Danny Arce? Hm.

Here's Williams again:

Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, I want to call your attention to another report I have here. On the 23d of November 1963, the report of Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, FBI agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. Did you tell them that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I didn't tell them I was using the stairs. I came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator I came up to the sixth floor on.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, also, on January 14th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named Carter and Griffin?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I can't remember their names, but I am sure I did.
Mr. BALL. You talked to a good many of them?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator.
Mr. WILLIAMS. The east elevator. The reason I was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because I think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows--I told you I didn't remember which elevator first. But the other fellows said they had the west elevator. There are only two elevators. If they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were beth elevators on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Both west and east?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able did you remember which elevator it was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?
Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.
Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.
Mr. BALL. Did you, later?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. When you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the Elm Street side.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And you saw Norman and--
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Ball, could we get the time element?
Mr. BALL. I am going to bring that in.
Mr. DULLES. All right. I will bide my time.
Mr. BALL. You went over to the front of the building, did you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you saw your two friends, Norman and Jarman?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes.

How bizarre. So Williams is admitting (italicized) that he's changing his story based on what other people said.

And the official story is they found the chicken bones on the 6th floor, ergo Williams' story agrees with that.

Fascinating.

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Re: physical evidence: the chicken bones

Post by Guest on Wed 12 Mar 2014, 4:49 pm

Very interesting, isn't it?

I went to work about 8am this morning. I worked on the 6th floor today with Mr. Bill Denny (sp?), Charles, and a Billy Lovelady. Charles was outside and couldn't get back in, so I guess he went back home. We worked up until about 10 minutes to 12. Then we went downstairs. We rode the elevator to the 1st floor and got our lunches. I went back on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior, I don't know his last name. JUST AFTER we got on the 5th floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston from Main Street. I heard 2 shots, it sounded like they came from just above us. We ran to the west side of the building. We didn't see anybody. We looked down and saw people running and hollering. We stayed there and in a little while some officers came up. They left and then we took the elevator to the 4th floor. We stayed there awhile and then went on out. ...

No mention of the 6th floor. No mention of the 6th floor from Norman either. Both Williams and Norman seem to indicate they went straight from the 1st floor to the 5th floor. They watched the President get shot, saw the people milling around, then just after the first set of cops went racing up to the roof they took the elevator down to the 4th floor.

Norman says:

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.

Norman doesn't mention taking the elevator down to the 4th floor. Junior Jarman's WC testimony has a description of the discussion: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm

Jarman's testimony has a bit of wierdness in it though, as do the other WC testimonies:

Mr. BALL - Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, Sir.
Mr. BALL - And where did. you go then?
Mr. JARMAN - Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you run
Mr. JARMAN - To the elevator on the west side.
Mr. BALL - On the west. That wasn't there?
Mr. JARMAN - No sir.

Mr. BALL - When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the first one I seen was Eddie Piper.

Well now - my question is: why was it necessary to put Williams on the 6th floor?

One possibility is, to account for the few minutes' gap between when Jarman says he and Norman went up the back stairs to the 5th floor, and when Williams showed up. (In other words, "to make the stories align").

The shooter's escape is a bit problematic, you see. The timing is such that Oswald, in presumably running down the stairs to get away, would have bumped into not only Norman and Jarman, but also the two women on the 4th floor (and also Jack Dougherty, if can digest his testimony without laughing).

I'm thinking whoever did this cased the joint first. The elevators took 20 seconds between floors, and you could hear them when they started. Whoever was up there had a narrow window. And it doesn't sound like they could have gotten down and out all that easily. However if they had a Secret Service badge, they could probably have made it out of the building even with a substantial delay.

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Re: physical evidence: the chicken bones

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