The Lunchroom Incident Revisited

First topic message reminder :

I want to begin by focusing on the notorious vestibule door, with the plate-glass window, that Baker first glimpsed Oswald looking through. It's WC Exhibit 498, at XVII p. 213, and even in the Warren volumes you can easily discern the fresh grain pattern in the wood. First Day Evidence, on p. 286, is even clearer.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0120a.htm

Very probably this was a new door, installed during the late 1962 overhaul, when the Sexton Grocery warehouse was remodeled to accommodate the TSBD company and several other publishers. By the way, Sexton had its offices on the 1st & 2nd floors and very likely used the same lunchroom that we all know so well. The vestibule door had an automatic closing device, and Truly had to come in and make a special affidavit about that on August 3rd (WCH VII p. 591). It took several seconds to close. This device was probably pneumatic.

This vestibule door had some weight to it. It was sturdy. It could be described as heavy-duty. Installing it was a 2-man job. In comparison, the doors to the up & down flights of stairs were downright flimsy. (Same link as above, but page 217). These stairwell doors were normally open during the course of the day, as was the lunchroom door (WCD 496, p. 32). The vestibule door closed by itself and was always in the closed position, if not in use.

The vestibule door helped muffle the sounds from the landing and stairwell, so that people in the lunchroom could eat in relative peace & quiet. The stairs were old and quite noisy and the landing floors were wood. Warehouse workers habitually came up to use the lunchroom Coke machine. And office workers also came down from the 3rd  & 4th floors, human nature being what it is, rather than wait impatiently at lunchtime for the passenger elevator. For example, Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles' run down the stairs on November 22nd wasn't their first experience on them. They instinctively knew they could head for the corner stairwell when they discovered the passenger elevator wasn't operating.

Considering the potential for irritable human traffic, the vestibule door kept disturbing sounds to a reasonable minimum. It was installed with that purpose in mind.

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Adams & Styles watched the motorcade from their 4th-floor office window overlooking Elm Street. Adams estimated the time it took them to reach the 1st floor, after the shots, was "no longer than a minute at the most." She confirmed to author Barry Ernest that she left the window just before the limousine reached the Triple Underpass (The Girl on the Stairs p. 329).

The first point that needs to be appreciated is that Adams & Styles could not have beaten Truly & Baker to the freight elevators. Even if these women made it to the 1st floor in 60 seconds, Truly & Baker had 60 seconds to make it only as far as the will-call counter, or just a bit further into the warehouse, to see the women across the floor. And Adams & Styles continued running in front of the freight elevators for the rear door. Even the most sluggard time estimate for Truly & Baker brings them onto the warehouse floor well before Adams & Styles. And in one re-enactment they made it to the 2nd-floor lunchroom in 75 seconds.

The second point is that Adams' & Styles' supervisor, Dorothy Garner, stated for the record that after they went downstairs, she saw Truly & Baker come up. The purpose of Garner's statement was to refute the WC argument that Adams must have gone downstairs several minutes after the shots, because otherwise she should have encountered Lee Harvey Oswald fleeing down the steps. Garner's statement was given in the U.S. Attorney's office in Dallas, and they sent it to WC Chief Counsel J. Lee Rankin. But he never brought it to light, since it helped refute the Commission's contention that Oswald was the 6th-floor assassin. And the statement lay buried in the National Archives in the papers of the Dallas U.S. Attorney until Barry Ernest discovered it.

We can boil the stairs down to a mathematical problem, where A & S are descending from the 4th while T & B are ascending to the 4th (and then the 5th). Yet they never interact with each other. Why is this the case? Because T & B removed themselves from the stairs for a time, and went into the lunchroom. And it is a mathematical certainty that A & S passed T & B while they were in the lunchroom.

Why didn't T & B hear them? Truly said that he, Baker & Oswald were only 2 or 3 feet inside the lunchroom. The answer is that the vestibule door muffled a lot of sound, coming from Adams' & Styles' high heels clomping down the wooden stair treads and across the wooden landing. And T & B were in an intense, gun-in-the-belly situation with Oswald. Even if a little bit of noise from those high heels filtered into their eardrums, it was only high heels and they quickly brushed it off and forgot about it.

Baker estimated the lunchroom encounter took 30 seconds. The stairs were roughly L-shaped, split-level. I think it's fair to say that for someone in the lunchroom, floor "2 1/2" to floor "1 1/2" constitutes their hearing range. Half a flight of steps gets descended in about 5 seconds, with another 5 seconds for crossing the 10-foot landing. That's 15 seconds total for A & S to be in hearing range. They probably were on the 3rd-floor landing just as B & T entered the lunchroom.

Skeptics of the lunchroom incident not only have to construe Baker & Truly as liars. Since 2010, when Garner's information came out, they have to construe her as misbegotten as well- yet her statement was made with Oswald's escape in mind, not the lunchroom incident.

What the simple mathematics of this problem means is that the totality of evidence cited by the skeptics, as supporting the lunchroom episode as a non-event, is nothing more than a red herring. The disparate news stories are just that- disparate news stories, and they tell us little more than that reporters will write anything.

And etc. Bring your best arguments to the table, in favor of the non-event. Prepare for a whuppin'.  

Further corroboration from December 1963 that Truly was telling reporters that Baker was ahead of him going up the stairs.  This is from Detroit Free Press reporter Gene Roberts:

It seems apparent to me the T&B encounter w/ LHO happened on the first floor.  The only way the second floor encounter would make sense is David Lifton's sinister idea that Baker's job was to shoot Oswald in the lunchroom (and then no doubt plant a knife or revolver on the body to make it a clean kill). This would account for Baker veering off into the lunchroom and putting a gun in LHO's belly, Truly inadvertently became Oswald's savior by following Baker up the stairs and into the lunchroom before he could shoot.  Having an eyewitness left LHO free to leave the TSBD and the kill team scrambling to get rid of him some other way.
I don't think the evidence supports this theory (Truly makes a better inside man than someone who literally just ran in from outside) but I can't think of any other explanation of why Baker would act the way he supposedly did.

Its crazy, again we have an article that lists Truly by name (fair enough it quotes him), but also Captain Fritz, Bonnie Ray Williams, HL Brennan, even the cabbie CJ McWatters--- yet ML Baker is not named, he's just the "motorcycle policeman". 
It almost seems Baker was like one of those billionaires that have a publicist whose job it is to keep their name out of the paper.

beowulf wrote:Its crazy, again we have an article that lists Truly by name (fair enough it quotes him), but also Captain Fritz, Bonnie Ray Williams, HL Brennan, even the cabbie CJ McWatters--- yet ML Baker is not named, he's just the "motorcycle policeman". 
It almost seems Baker was like one of those billionaires that have a publicist whose job it is to keep their name out of the paper.

Another witness that managed to keep their name out of the media was Mary Esther Bledsoe.  Her name wasn't mentioned in print until long after her Warren Commission testimony was given and I mean it was a complete blackout to the point that even though Joachim Joesten knew her name when he published his book 'Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy' just before the publication of the Warren Report he still wasn't allowed to mention her by name.

When you want to control the story you have to control the witnesses.  Shame someone didn't lock Truly up in the Six Flags as well.

I think I've pinpointed the exact point in time when the story took its u-turn.  Early December and once the Secret Service became involved is when it occurred, according to a December, 1963, USSS report.

The report states its investigation took place over December 2nd through the 6th.  The most revealing aspect of this is who was involved in producing this report.

Secret Service Agent Elmer Moore.

The same Elmer Moore who was responsible for altering the first day testimony of the Dallas doctors concerning whether the wound in the President's neck was an entrance wound.  What we see here with Roy Truly is what we also saw with Dr. Perry.

Whether Truly knew that a new narrative had been produced at this moment in time for him or not is up for debate but you can bet your last dollar that Elmer Moore was a prime instigator in this change of story

Here is what the USSS reports says:

"As Mr. Truly started up the stairway from the second to the third floor, he noticed that the patrolman was not with him and, at the same time, he heard the patrolman say something. Mr. Truly returned to the second floor and saw the patrolman standing at the doorway leading into the lunchroom, with his pistol drawn and pointed at Oswald, who was then just inside the lunchroom near the doorway.  The patrolman asked Mr. Truly if he worked in the building and Truly replied "Yes".

beowulf wrote:Its crazy, again we have an article that lists Truly by name (fair enough it quotes him), but also Captain Fritz, Bonnie Ray Williams, HL Brennan, even the cabbie CJ McWatters--- yet ML Baker is not named, he's just the "motorcycle policeman". 
It almost seems Baker was like one of those billionaires that have a publicist whose job it is to keep their name out of the paper.

The arresting officers get hero media attention.

Baker is not even mentioned by name.

The reason seemed to be embedded in that comparison. Baker was the guy who had him and let him go. That's the innocent explanation.

An alternative explanation is fear that letting him speak to the media may result in some facts inadvertently entering the mix. 

greg parker wrote:

beowulf wrote:Its crazy, again we have an article that lists Truly by name (fair enough it quotes him), but also Captain Fritz, Bonnie Ray Williams, HL Brennan, even the cabbie CJ McWatters--- yet ML Baker is not named, he's just the "motorcycle policeman". 
It almost seems Baker was like one of those billionaires that have a publicist whose job it is to keep their name out of the paper.

The arresting officers get hero media attention.

Baker is not even mentioned by name.

The reason seemed to be embedded in that comparison. Baker was the guy who had him and let him go. That's the innocent explanation.

An alternative explanation is fear that letting him speak to the media may result in some facts inadvertently entering the mix. 

And I can just imagine the bold statement above being used against Baker to get him on board with any and all desired script changes.

"D'you realize what the history books could be writing about you, boy?  Your name, your kids names?  Blackened like tar.  You'll be the one who let him go.  Think about that long and hard.  Wade is chomping at the bit and is ready to throw you to the dogs. Now are we sticking with this fourth floor situation or are you gonna help us get him further down that fucking building?  Get him away from the crime scene.  We can control this Marrion -- but we need your help.  We've got friends on the papers, we can keep your name out of this mess until we've got it under wraps.  You with me?"

Hello Goodbye wrote:And I can just imagine the bold statement above being used against Baker to get him on board with any and all desired script changes.

"D'you realize what the history books could be writing about you, boy?  Your name, your kids names?  Blackened like tar.  You'll be the one who let him go.  Think about that long and hard.  Wade is chomping at the bit and is ready to throw you to the dogs. Now are we sticking with this fourth floor situation or are you gonna help us get him further down that fucking building?  Get him away from the crime scene.  We can control this Marrion -- but we need your help.  We've got friends on the papers, we can keep your name out of this mess until we've got it under wraps.  You with me?"

When you consider how Frazier said he was accused of having a role in the assassination and how he was pressured to sign a document confessing to his involvement—only to be let go when they had a "better" patsy, your account here is probably a hell of a lot closer to the truth than many realize.

Stan Dane wrote:

Hello Goodbye wrote:And I can just imagine the bold statement above being used against Baker to get him on board with any and all desired script changes.

"D'you realize what the history books could be writing about you, boy?  Your name, your kids names?  Blackened like tar.  You'll be the one who let him go.  Think about that long and hard.  Wade is chomping at the bit and is ready to throw you to the dogs. Now are we sticking with this fourth floor situation or are you gonna help us get him further down that fucking building?  Get him away from the crime scene.  We can control this Marrion -- but we need your help.  We've got friends on the papers, we can keep your name out of this mess until we've got it under wraps.  You with me?"

When you consider how Frazier said he was accused of having a role in the assassination and how he was pressured to sign a document confessing to his involvement—only to be let go when they had a "better" patsy, your account here is probably a hell of a lot closer to the truth than many realize.

I agree.
They had leverage on both Buell & Baker. Doesn't matter if Baker was a "good cop" or whatever, that sort of pressure can move mountains. Some people can stand up to threats but when you threaten their kids or their families, well, they usually fold.

And like Greg implied, they kept his name out of the paper until he was firmly on board with the acceptable tale. Wouldn't want any news hound getting some sort of scoop.

Stan Dane wrote:

Leo Sauvage wrote:I [Roy Truly] thought the officer wanted to get to the roof for a better look and I immediately offered to show him how. We ran to the freight elevators in the back of the building because the front elevators do not go beyond the fourth floor, but the two freight cars had both been left somewhere up in the top floors and we took the stairs, the officer ahead of me. When I reached the second-floor landing, the officer was already at the open door of the lunchroom, some twenty or twenty-five feet away. No, I couldn't tell you exactly how much time it took, all this, but it wasn't long…

In all of the places I've worked in my life, I always learned the quickest/easiest/fastest way to get where I wanted to go. I found elevators that service office workers to generally be zippy and fast, while elevators designed to haul equipment as well as people to be slower. If I needed to get somewhere in a hurry, I took this into account.
 
I wonder if the elevator in the SE corner of the TSBD building was faster than the freight elevators in the NW corner? I got to think an office creature like Truly would use the front office elevator whenever possible. If it was indeed fast and if he wanted to go to the fifth or sixth floors, why not take it quickly up to the up to the fourth, walk over to the freight elevators and take them up the rest of the way, or use the stairs from there? What I'm trying to do here is to put myself in Truly's wingtips and anticipate what I might have done. 

So I'm Roy and I hear shots...this cop comes running up...he wants to go to the roof...I take him inside the front door to the elevator right there and we quickly go up to the fourth floor...we cross over the relatively open fourth floor to the elevators, and if they are not quickly available, we take the stairs up the last few flights. Ain't wasting no time.
 
I'm speculating out the wazoo here, but I don't think I would have trudged over to the NW corner and then hoped those elevators were on the first floor, and if not, jumped through the hoops to coax those suckers on down, and failing that, then start running up the stairs. (He had to be familiar with the layout of the building and how all the moving parts worked, so his brain had to process the alternatives instantly.) Truly was an old fart, so I can't imagine him wanting to do wind sprints up 6-7 flights of stairs. I sure as hell wouldn't. But I may be missing something and I could be wrong, of course.

But after reading what Sauvage wrote, I found another reason to be skeptical of what Truly said he did.

Stan,
I believe you are right. I have looked at the times for the various FBI timings and they appear to indicate the freight elevator was much slower.  I don't have the figures with me now but from memory the freight elevator was slower than Lovelady's often quoted 30 seconds. The passenger elevator was about twice the speed.

Edit. Just found my calculations and they show the freight elevator took about 36 seconds for 5 floors, not 30 seconds for 6 floors as indicated by Lovelady. The WC requested an official timing be done. I have seen no mention if it was ever conducted. The passenger elevator travelled 4 floors in under 20 seconds.

terlin wrote:

Stan Dane wrote:

Hello Goodbye wrote:And I can just imagine the bold statement above being used against Baker to get him on board with any and all desired script changes.

"D'you realize what the history books could be writing about you, boy?  Your name, your kids names?  Blackened like tar.  You'll be the one who let him go.  Think about that long and hard.  Wade is chomping at the bit and is ready to throw you to the dogs. Now are we sticking with this fourth floor situation or are you gonna help us get him further down that fucking building?  Get him away from the crime scene.  We can control this Marrion -- but we need your help.  We've got friends on the papers, we can keep your name out of this mess until we've got it under wraps.  You with me?"

When you consider how Frazier said he was accused of having a role in the assassination and how he was pressured to sign a document confessing to his involvement—only to be let go when they had a "better" patsy, your account here is probably a hell of a lot closer to the truth than many realize.

I agree.
They had leverage on both Buell & Baker. Doesn't matter if Baker was a "good cop" or whatever, that sort of pressure can move mountains. Some people can stand up to threats but when you threaten their kids or their families, well, they usually fold.

And like Greg implied, they kept his name out of the paper until he was firmly on board with the acceptable tale. Wouldn't want any news hound getting some sort of scoop.

From a post earlier in this thread.....

An interview with Stavis Ellis, indicates that Baker was not particularly bright and carried guild over Tippit's death. He felt responsible for the Tippit killing by not detaining Oswald  or ensuring the building was sealed.

Stan Dane wrote:

Hello Goodbye wrote:And I can just imagine the bold statement above being used against Baker to get him on board with any and all desired script changes.

"D'you realize what the history books could be writing about you, boy?  Your name, your kids names?  Blackened like tar.  You'll be the one who let him go.  Think about that long and hard.  Wade is chomping at the bit and is ready to throw you to the dogs. Now are we sticking with this fourth floor situation or are you gonna help us get him further down that fucking building?  Get him away from the crime scene.  We can control this Marrion -- but we need your help.  We've got friends on the papers, we can keep your name out of this mess until we've got it under wraps.  You with me?"

When you consider how Frazier said he was accused of having a role in the assassination and how he was pressured to sign a document confessing to his involvement—only to be let go when they had a "better" patsy, your account here is probably a hell of a lot closer to the truth than many realize.

Stan,

They had leverage against everybody that they needed to tow the line.  Whether that be Chief Justice Earl Warren or a construction worker with the best eyesight in North America.

This is why the likes of McAdams and Bugliosi's modus operandi and often overused phrase of "How many people were involved in the ever widening conspiracy then?  Shall we add Mary Bledsoe to the list of 10,000 other people" is a crock of steaming turnips.

The cover up consisted of many mini conspiracies.  I sincerely doubt that many of the witnesses who were leaned on to change their story knew that other witnesses were being also being leaned on.  At least not in the early days.

It is easily imagined how fame and infamy were used to sway individuals.  "If you say this Mr. or Mrs. X you will single handedly be responsible for seeing that this son of a bitch gets what he deserves for killing the President in our beloved city of Dallas.  We've got him on almost everything but this one thing needs be cast iron.  Now are you going to do your patriotic duty and help us slam dunk this case?"

Warren Reynolds got shot in the head after he wouldn't ID Oswald.  He had a change of heart when his brain mended.

Mary Bledsoe had to say she got on at a different bus stop.  No harm done.  Even if the person she saw wasn't Oswald.

William Whaley had to change where he dropped him off in the cab -- oh, and pick him up later.

Wesley Frazier had to say Oswald was carrying a large sack and forget that he probably saw him in the doorway of the TSBD during the shooting. Now, his experience must have been really terrifying because I sincerely believe that he knows how Oswald was strung up by the balls.

Charles Givens just had to remember that he returned to the sixth floor for his smokes in case a convenient drug charge fell into the lap of the DPD and DA.

Baker had to forget the guy on the fourth floor and remember a guy on the second.

Roger Craig didn't tow the line and ultimately got so paranoid that he ended his own life.

On and on we could go -- but each was leaned on differently because the leverage was there - and used - by the people pulling the strings.

EDIT: Whaley had to say he picked him up later than was written on his taxi manifest.

Hello Goodbye wrote:Paul Klein wrote:

"Here we have Truly say Baker went ahead of him which makes rather more sense. Lee, do you know when we first learn about it being the other way around? It would be good to get dates on all this."

The problem with the entire thing is no matter what way this piece of shit story was put together it had plot holes and timing issues.

They settled on the one that they felt made the most sense even though they actually voiced the other variations such was the outright cheek of these lying bastards.

Truly is a lying sack of shit no matter what way you cut it and Baker went along with it all.

The shame of it is that all the critics fell for the lunchroom encounter as being real and tried proving it exonerated Oswald rather than pursuing whether it actually occurred at all.  It certainly did the job of burying any and all talk of Oswald being not only on the first floor, but more than likely in the doorway watching the motorcade go by.  This is why I really believe the FBI shat a brick when people started saying that Oswald was pictured in the doorway of Altgens-6.

The same happened with the brown paper bag where the arguments, led by Mark Lane, were to try and prove the rifle didn't fit rather than pursuing whether a bag existed in the first place.

Tippit murder; everyone arguing about whether Oswald could get to the scene in the time allocated from his boarding house -- when the likelihood is he never lived in that damn house and was probably already in the Theater eating his popcorn.

I've yet to come across anything true written about this poor kid.

And now that we know that Truly was helping create the best fit scenario for this bullshit encounter right the way up to appearance in front of David Belin, Richard Gilbride can well and TRULY kiss my arse...

They had nothing on him. It was all bullshit. The only way they could "cinch" this case was to shoot him dead before he got a lawyer.

Lee & Paul,

these sorts of observations and sentiments - backed up by evidence - is exactly what is needed to get the message across.

And Paul... imo, you are absolutely on the money with that last observation. I'll add that I believe that both the DCLU and the DBA were complicit in making sure he was denied legal assistance. The DCLU was white-anted and the DBA represented every crooked dollar in town.

greg parker wrote:Lee & Paul,

these sorts of observations and sentiments - backed up by evidence - is exactly what is needed to get the message across.

And Paul... imo, you are absolutely on the money with that last observation. I'll add that I believe that both the DCLU and the DBA were complicit in making sure he was denied legal assistance. The DCLU was white-anted and the DBA represented every crooked dollar in town.

Greg, I think it might time for a bit of Tex Perkins and The Cruel Sea don't ya think?

I found a comment in the article linked below by Jerry Dealey that indicates the west elevator has to have both gates closed to call the elevator. If so, the question arises how Truly or Baker could see exactly where the elevators were with the gate closed on the first floor.

http://www.dealey.org/updown.pdf


One would think this is a basic safety requirement, preventing the arrival of an elevator on top of someone stumbling into the lift well.

Paul Klein wrote:

greg parker wrote:Lee & Paul,

these sorts of observations and sentiments - backed up by evidence - is exactly what is needed to get the message across.

And Paul... imo, you are absolutely on the money with that last observation. I'll add that I believe that both the DCLU and the DBA were complicit in making sure he was denied legal assistance. The DCLU was white-anted and the DBA represented every crooked dollar in town.

Greg, I think it might time for a bit of Tex Perkins and The Cruel Sea don't ya think?

Perfect.

Colin Crow wrote:I found a comment in the article linked below by Jerry Dealey that indicates the west elevator has to have both gates closed to call the elevator. If so, the question arises how Truly or Baker could see exactly where the elevators were with the gate closed on the first floor.

http://www.dealey.org/updown.pdf


One would think this is a basic safety requirement, preventing the arrival of an elevator on top of someone stumbling into the lift well.

I'm trying to understand this.
 
The east elevator could only be accessed from the floor that it was already on. So if it was not on the floor you were on, forget about it. You take the stairs or use the west elevator.
 
The west elevator is callable from any floor, but only if the gate on each floor was closed, as well as the elevator gate. Obviously, there were interlocks to prevent elevator movement unless all of these conditions were met. This makes sense from a safety perspective, even back in the dark ages of 1963.
 
Questions:
 
1. Was it possible to lift a gate (west elevator) on a floor the elevator was not on (i.e., no interlocks preventing this action)?
 
2. If so, when Truly and Baker got to the freight elevators and the east elevator was (ostensibly) elsewhere, when Truly tried calling the west elevator (the gate had to be down to do this) and there was no response, did Truly open the gate (if possible) and look up the shaft to see what he might see?
 
3. If so—in addition to placing himself and others at risk of falling into the elevator shaft—how could Truly tell what floor the elevator was on? Also, how could he also tell what floor the east elevator was on (the article suggests he was able to do this as well)?

I still wonder why Truly would dink around with these lumbering freight elevators when he could have got to the fourth floor in a matter of seconds if he used the elevator he himself was most accustomed to: the passenger elevator in front.

Stan Dane wrote:I still wonder why Truly would dink around with these lumbering freight elevators when he could have got to the fourth floor in a matter of seconds if he used the elevator he himself was most accustomed to: the passenger elevator in front.

Perhaps Mr. Truly was stalling, offering to "help" but primarily delaying the officer's travel upward. Like you mentioned, Truly was getting up in years and probably could not race up the stairs anyway.

Maybe there was a reason he wanted to slow the officer down. If they got upstairs too quickly they might have seen someone Truly did not want seen?

And now for something completely the same.

I have taken the trouble of gathering in one place some of The Gilbride's thoughtful and educational insights that he has been kind enough to share with us all over the last few months.  His quotes appear in bold italics and my short responses are underneath.

I hope you all enjoy rereading them.  Given that this man is a chemist, a philosopher, an artist, a builder, a painter and decorator, a physicist, a historian, a self-awareness guru, an expert in the manufacture of doors, a mathematician, an interpreter, an inventor, a script writer, a tiger, a psychologist, a moon expert, and a complete arsehole -- I'm sure we can all learn something from his learnedness in life, the universe, and everything.  

"Skeptics of the lunchroom incident...have to construe Baker & Truly as liars."

Yep.  Done that in "spades."  They're both liars.

"Bring your best arguments to the table, in favor of the non-event. Prepare for a whuppin'."

Yep, brought them to the table and actually whupped you.

"The Washington Post excerpt shows that a reporter will write just about anything. We have no idea what his source was, and his "facts" are not always reliable. Information, misinformation, or disinformation?"

We have multiple newspaper reports quoting Truly directly clearly saying that Baker was ahead of him on the stairs.  No interpretation required.

"I have to admire Bill Kelly for standing up to the tribe of lunchroom non-eventers. He did observe that you are fooling yourselves."

You can tell Bill Kelly from me that he needs to reevaluate not only his position but also his quote that "it only happened one way" because according to Truly it happened two ways.

"I'm dug in and armed to the teeth with facts and logic and will not relent."

You are armed with deceit.  You couldn't even get the facts right in your opening post that outlined your argument.  You did this on purpose because the facts actually prove you to be deluded.  But you've made your bed -- time to lie in it.

"This issue is going to be refuted for keeps, right here. I won't stand for any more lunchroom non-event espousals. The tribe is going to have to pass right through me. Where are you all? Afraid, perhaps, of being shown to be a fool?"

We arrived.  Passed through you.  It was easy. Fool. 

"The totality of the evidence suggesting a lunchroom non-event has to be discarded, due to the simple mathematics of the A & S non-interaction with T & B."

You cannot count [pregnant pause], Gilbride. Truly is a [pregnant pause] liar.  

"You'll thank me for this someday."

You want us to thank you for being deceitful and wrong?  Okay.  Thank you, Richard.

"The extant lunchroom evidence is sufficient to state with mathematical certainty that T & B were in the lunchroom when A & S passed by on the 2nd floor landing."

Nope.  Complete and utter nonsense.

"Baker's foot touched the outside front step at least by Z-313 plus 22 seconds (consensus film analysis at JFK Lancer in 2007), but it may have been even sooner."

No shit.

"More sophistry, and in this case you make T & B out to be redundant liars."

Yep.  I feel like I'm repeating myself now.

"I will not relent on this lunchroom issue. For far too long it has been treated as sacrosanct by the tribe of true believers and I am showing unequivocably that it is incorrect."

Don't think so...

"I don't favor Josephs over anyone else, but admire how he's stood up to your H & L attacks, but personally criticize his knee-jerk criticism of MC Piper."

Harvey & Lee is utter junk.  Just like what you've presented.  At least you share a characteristic with your hero John Armstrong.  You are both consistently inexact when presenting the evidence in the vain hope of hoodwinking people.  You unfortunately misjudged us as idiots.

"And I have every motivation to get my revenge via this thread. Is not revenge a dish best served cold?"

Oh my.  How much of fool do you feel right now?  And are you now going to formulate some new revenge plan to get us back for the wheels falling off the current one?  

"I did lay it out in the first post. You don't have the formal education to see that. Let me remind you that I majored in philosophy before earning a chemistry degree."

By your own admission your first post was built upon statements that were inexact.  Personally I'd say it was full of shit but let's not split hairs.  To throw the "formal education" card out there and then watch as you are proven to be nothing more than deceitful manipulator who built his entire first post on lies must be quite embarrassing for you?  Braniac.

"When I retire from JFK work I plan on picking up where I left off, and there are 3 patents I intend to apply for for deriving energy from the natural environment. Lots of energy."

And let's not forget the Gilbride Gobbledegook Jabberwocky interpretation machine.  I believe it is a green initiative and runs on bullshit?

"Face it, Greg. Your lunchroom non-event theory is in its death throes. Can you handle that fact?"

Reports of its death have been grossly exaggerated.

NOTE: The above insults, misplaced confidence and braggadocio took place over the first two pages of the thread.

"But in this particular thread, I bring a lot to the gladiator's arena. We'll see who's left standing after the battle."

Black Knight: None shall pass.
Arthur: What?
Black Knight: None shall pass.
Arthur: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this bridge.
Black Knight: Then you shall die.
Arthur: I command you as King of the Britons to stand aside!
Black Knight: I move for no man.
Arthur: So be it!
Arthur cuts off the Black Knight's left arm.

"OK, girls. Or should I say morons? Your position on the lunchroom non-event is poison, just as surely as the casket-switch theory, or single-bullet theory are schools of thought that don't cut the mustard. I am on a mission to eradicate this faulty postulate. I will not relent."

Black Knight: Right, I'll do you for that!
Arthur: You'll what?
Black Knight: Come 'ere!
Arthur: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
Black Knight: I'm invincible!
Arthur: You're a loony.
Black Knight: The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then.

"It might be a good tonic for the research community, to have this debate on record…"

Sure is a good tonic.  Here it is.  For everyone to read.

"I will make an effort to tone down the rhetoric. It would be a shame to lose the discussion because of heated emotions. However, I will not tone down my confidence in my correctness."

And you didn't disappoint did you, Black Knight?

"I look forward to the discussion regarding the lunchroom and still have unshakeable confidence in the correctness of my position. Prepare to get raked over the coals…"

Hmmm.  Still waiting.  Are the coals not hot enough yet?  Oh, wait, I get it.  You forgot to buy some coal.  No worries.

"This is as poisonous a belief system as the single-bullet theory and the casket-switch theory."

Its funny you say that because the silly transparent tactics you have used since you started this nonsense have been identical to the originators of those two pieces of garbage.  I know you don't believe me but you have problems facing evidence square on…and you are somewhat unbalanced.  

"The lunacy in me is in taking on the cult, the true believers, those who don't think the lunchroom incident ever happened. Because those true believers are the true lunatics, who can't accept concrete evidence that their hypothesis is incorrect, even with that evidence is dropped at their feet and thoroughly explained to them."

You mean the "inexact" evidence that you posted and your PhD thesis on the manufacture of the vestibule door?

"There is nothing original in my stating that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom. But I am declaring it to be the truth. Planting it like a sword in the ground."

Black Knight: All right; we'll call it a draw.
Arthur: Come, Patsy.
Black Knight: Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow bastard! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

"...they have taken leave of their senses. "They" meaning Sean Murphy, Greg Parker, Lee Farley, and those who actively promote this school of thought. What they promulgate is an insult to my better judgment, and many other peoples' better judgment. It should be an insult to their better judgment."

My judgment is perfectly fine, thanks.  It was right about you.  It's been right about this.  The insult is to have someone fill their original post with lies, half-truths, and cherry picked evidence whilst trying to pass themselves off as some sort of intellectual standard bearer.  That's the insult...

"I didn't make this mess, and one day will be walking away from it. But right now I'm standing next to that sword, defending it to the hilt."

I've run out of Black Knight quotes. 

"They are going to have to come to terms with the mess they have made, as regards the remainder of their research. Come to terms with the damage they have wrought, with whatever others may remind them when they seek to defend a position."

No damage.  Only further light placed on proceedings.  

"Farley, I've never maintained that the vestibule door is completely soundproof. Part of your character-assassin modus operandi is putting words in my mouth I never said. It's jealousy on your part, I must report. So sorry to see your over-reaction about the pneumatic door get answered in spades. I guessed on it, not having a photo, from building trade experience."

You character assassinated yourself by spouting bullshit and stabbing an imaginary sword into the floor only to fall on it.  You made every effort you possibly could to sledgehammer and then shoe-horn pre-suppositions concerning this amazing door into people's minds in your original post.  You might not have actually said it was "soundproof" but you may as well have done -- it wouldn't have gone amiss amongst your other lies and bullshit.

I'm well versed enough in JFK assassination matters to hold off judgment concerning the self-closing device and I'm perfectly justified in doing so.  I have given my reasons and no-one could argue against them -- apart from a mental case.

"Basically, I see a whole bunch of sophistry without central answers."

Yep.  So do I.

"Honestly, Lee, do you ever consider the reality of the lunchroom incident? Or just automatically toss it out? Because it seems to me your objectivity deserts you on this issue. It gets lost in the glitter and glory of hypothesizing itself."

Just as there is nothing wrong with my judgment there is also nothing wrong with my objectivity.  No sane person would accuse me of not analysing this matter fully.

"Why didn't T & B hear them? Truly said that he, Baker & Oswald were only 2 or 3 feet inside the lunchroom."

An outright lie.

"They weren't in profile to Truly's POV, because if they were, Baker & Oswald would both be 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. This wasn't what Truly described…"

Now you can't have your cake and eat it now, can you?

"All apologies for my inexact language in my first post, as regards placement of Truly, and my inexact interpretation of Truly's not-quite-clearly-recalling he met up with Baker in the front lobby."

And the house of cards begins to crumble.

"What surprises me most is that so many people have fallen for the lunchroom hoax story. That does not reflect well on the promoters, in my opinion, as regards their legacy in research. Someone like Vince Salandria, in his prime, would tear their arguments to shreds in no time flat."

Vince Salandria would have thanked us for presenting evidence that got lost because of idiots like you barking up the wrong tree.

"The tribe here is so far gone, so utterly brainwashed- it is as if NASA handed me a piece of moon rock, and I brought it to a ReOpenKennedyCaser, and said 'This is what the moon is made of." And that member would reply, "No way. It doesn't smell like cheese."

The best thing NASA could do with a space cadet like you is to lock you in a room with a bunch of their best psychiatrists to gather more information on the nature of cognitive dissonance and egomania -- once done they should put you in a Soyuz and fire you into space.

"Just doing my part to help make Earth safe and sane again."

And I hear you have talks set up with Vladimir Putin next week to discuss a device you have invented that will solve the crisis in the Crimea [patent pending]?

"More sophistry, and in this case you make T & B out to be redundant liars." Richard Gilbride.

Out of all of the tiger shit that has been excreted on this thread I am actually quite interested in the quote that I have posted above.

Gilbride seems to hold contradictory beliefs concerning Roy Truly.  He has voiced his belief that Truly was possibly the "inside man" at the TSBD yet he has, on many occasions, taken exception to any and all accusations of Roy Truly being a liar.

It is without doubt that Truly was a liar.

Here are some things that I believe he lied about:

a) What time he went outside
b) Who he was with outside
c) Where he was when the motorcade passed
d) The crowd surge
e) Where he was when Baker approached the steps
f) There being no one else in the lobby
g) Bumping into the will-call desk
h) Looking up the elevator shafts
i) Seeing the elevators on the fifth floor
j) Baker being behind him on the stairs
k) Seeing Oswald in the lunchroom
l) Withholding seeing someone on the fourth floor stairs
m) The roll call
n) The reasons why Oswald being missing was suspicious
o) Agreeing with the WC that he told Fritz that Oswald was missing AFTER the rifle was discovered
p) The discovery of Oswald's jacket and clipboard
q) His initial exaggeration of how long it took them to get up the stairs
r) The real reasons why Joe Molina was sacked from his job at the TSBD

I also don't believe we have the full story concerning the rifles brought to work by Warren Caster a couple of days before the assassination or who really got Lee Oswald the job there.

And we must not forget Truly's precognition that he "thought" Baker wanted to get to the roof.  Like Gilbride, Truly was a good guesser.

And while we are at this.  Can anybody confirm a police officer being situated 7, 8 or 10 feet away from Truly during the motorcade?

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see? 
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

The Truly quote to Leo Sauvage about Baker being ahead of Truly also appears on page 35 of Joachim Joesten's book Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy?


"…and we took the stairs, the officer ahead of me.  When I reached the second floor landing, the officer was already at the open door of the lunchroom…"

Colin,

You have indicated on a couple of occasions that you have different information as to the rate that the freight elevators could descend. Differing from Lovelady's Nov. 22 FBI estimate of 30 seconds from floor 7 to 1--  5 seconds per floor. The calculations you gave are 36 seconds per 5 floors (i.e. 7 seconds per floor). You mentioned that this information came from an Archives document. Any chance of posting that document, or linking to it? Much thanks.

The Truly-Baker Timing Conundrum

Try marrying up these two series of events.

Event series one

About 10-15 seconds after the assassination Roy Truly sees a Motorcycle Police Officer heading toward the TSBD and he runs after him.  Truly catches up with him in the lobby.  Marrion Baker asks where the stairs are.  Truly says follow me.  They run into the main first floor area and they bump into the Will-Call counter (like Laurel & Hardy) before making their way over to elevators.

Roy Truly calls the west elevator and nothing happens.  He shouts up "Turn loose the elevator."  Nothing happens.  He shouts up again.  Nothing happens.

Truly tells Baker they'll use the stairs (Baker in front or behind - take your pick) and Baker notices someone in the lunchroom.  He runs across and spends 35 seconds with him.  Baker and Truly leave.  Oswald then walks off.

Event series two


From the testimony of Mrs. Reid:

"…the thought went through my mind, my goodness I must get out this line of shots.  They may fire some more…I ran into the building, I do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby.  I ran up to our office…up the stairs the front stairs…I went into the office…I kept walking and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office."

Makes sense right?

According to the official version of events Reid saw Oswald after the Baker-Truly lunchroom encounter.  Maybe some pregnant pauses are required to slow Reid down while she's running into the building and up the flight of steps into her office in fear for her life?

Something needs inserting because there's no way on earth the elevator shenanigans and the lunchroom encounter happened before she got up into her office…

Not unless we begin reinterpreting what she said.

Richard Gilbride wrote:Colin,

You have indicated on a couple of occasions that you have different information as to the rate that the freight elevators could descend. Differing from Lovelady's Nov. 22 FBI estimate of 30 seconds from floor 7 to 1--  5 seconds per floor. The calculations you gave are 36 seconds per 5 floors (i.e. 7 seconds per floor). You mentioned that this information came from an Archives document. Any chance of posting that document, or linking to it? Much thanks.

Richard,
I sent you an email earlier that explains how you can use the various FBI recreations from the link below to generate equations.


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57697&relPageId=129

If you look at the second recreation it involves the elevator for 5 floors and takes 114 seconds. If the elevators took 30 seconds for 6 floors (5 seconds/floor) as Lovelady claimed the trip to the elevators (fast walk) and elevator to front door (slow walk) takes 89 seconds. Allow a few seconds for the gates close and open and you can see the on foot portion averages about 4 feet per second....way too slow. It means the elevator must have been slower.

If you look at the first recreation, down the stairs for 5 floors it is 9 seconds faster! The elevator was not faster than taking the stairs. No way you can get down that staircase at less than 5 seconds per flight.

The question we want to resolve in this particular post is whether Truly & Baker were able to look up the elevator shaft. The answer is yes.

From Jerry Dealey's article "The Ups and Downs of the TSBD":

"The EAST elevator was hand controlled and you had to be in the elevator to hold the up or down direction switch. The WEST elevator could be called, provided the gate at each floor, and the gate on the elevator itself was closed (double gated). You would then push the button for the floor you wish to move to."

An article he was kind enough to e-mail to me 5 years ago before it went to press, "Giving the Dealey Plaza Sewer Troll a 'Lift'", states:

"The freight elevators were a dual gate system. The gates were slats of wood, with gaps between them held together by linkage. The outer gate was a full one, which rolled into the holder that is seen above the elevator in photos 6 & 7 of CD496. The inner gate was a 3/4 gate, standing about 4 feet from the floor. It lifted into the shaft to open, and the elevators would not move unless both gates were closed (for safety reasons). Additionally, the gates on any other floor would not open if the elevator was not on that floor. (I suppose they could be "jimmied" in some way).

But Jerry was mistaken, as this clip from the Alyea film shows. It was taken as the photographer rode up to the 6th floor in the west elevator. (Notice the stairway sign)

http://jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=23&pos=3

So the outer, roll-up gate on the 6th floor was open when Alyea rode it up. The elevator's ascension didn't depend on someone being upstairs to open the outer, roll-up gate once someone downstairs decided to use the elevator.

This means that the safety-lock mechanism was attached to the inner, slide-down wood-slat gate. The west elevator would not move unless all of these were closed on every floor.

During the course of a normal work day, I believe it was common practice to leave the outer, roll-up gates to the 1st and 4th, 5th & 6th open, while leaving the outer roll-up gates to the 2nd & 3rd closed. Because these latter floors were hardly used by the warehouse workers, if at all.

Belin specifically asked Truly (III, pp. 226-7) whether Truly had noticed any elevator present on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th while he climbed the stairs; Truly said no but gave no indication whether or not whether or not the outer gate was rolled up into its overhead holder.

Adams specifically stated "The elevator was not moving" (VI, p. 389) when she got to the 4th-floor landing; she didn't see any cables moving through the wood-slat gate. She couldn't remember about the other floors. But Styles years later recalled Adams telling co-workers about hearing the elevator cables during their descent of the stairs. This, I believe, is when the west began to descend- about when A & S were at the 3rd-floor landing.

The answer is yes, that Truly & Baker looked up the elevator shaft.

I'll get to you, Lee Farley, the laziest researcher I have ever come across in my long and illustrious career as a Gobbledegooker. What do they put in that Liverpuddlian H2O that so twists the mind? What's thrilling me this moment is my knowledge that you have fallen for the ole rope-a-dope. Roar, meow, & a swipe to follow.