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Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

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Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 04 May 2014, 4:49 am

It makes you wonder.
 
We know we've been lied to about JFK and RFK. We were lied to about Viet Nam. Terry's book raises doubts about the Lincoln assassination official story. Greg's book does the same with the Cold War and earlier historical events. Of course we were told the whole truth and nothing but the truth about Iraq, weren't we?
 
What else?
 
There's an article that suggests the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915 might not have been what we were told it was. The Germans always claimed that the Lusitania was secretly carrying explosives earmarked for the WWI front-lines. Britain vehemently denied it. The sinking was crucial in whipping up support for the war and getting the US involved in it. But new documents just released showed that "British Government officials feared the secret of the tragedy would 'blow up on us' when a group of divers planned to search the wreck."
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2617701/Revealed-How-British-officials-feared-secret-sunk-Lusitania-spark-diplomatic-crisis-US.html
 
I don't know how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. It fits the pattern.

Has there ever been a foreign war that can be justified by its historical justification?

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Sun 04 May 2014, 6:26 am

Stan, if you are not familiar with him, David Swanson has written a number of good books on war, including War is a Lie and When the World Outlawed War (on the Kellogg-Briand treaty).  David also knew John Judge because of their work for Kucinich.  See http://davidswanson.org.

And I wouldn't limit it to Iraq, either.  The whole lead-up to the September 11 attacks was a complicated bit of carefully planned intelligence failures.  See Michael Ruppert, Crossing the Rubicon.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 04 May 2014, 6:50 am

Stan Dane wrote:There's an article that suggests the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915 might not have been what we were told it was. The Germans always claimed that the Lusitania was secretly carrying explosives earmarked for the WWI front-lines. Britain vehemently denied it. The sinking was crucial in whipping up support for the war and getting the US involved in it. But new documents just released showed that "British Government officials feared the secret of the tragedy would 'blow up on us' when a group of divers planned to search the wreck."
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2617701/Revealed-How-British-officials-feared-secret-sunk-Lusitania-spark-diplomatic-crisis-US.html
 
I don't know how true this is, but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. It fits the pattern.

Has there ever been a foreign war that can be justified by its historical justification?

If I recall research I have done years ago revealed that the Officer in the Admiralty who set this up was one Winston Churchill and his counterpart at the NY Port Authority was one FDR. The Wilson administration thought they were going to supply aid "anonymously" but FDR and Churchill leaked the info on the manifest to the Germans who, quite naturally, blew the ship out of the water with a direct hit on the contraband.

Quite naturally, FDR did the same thing with the attack on Pearl Harbor to justify entering in WWII.

Has there ever been a foreign war...? Not in American history. Even the domestic problems like the Whiskey Rebellion were bogus.

There might have been a war back around the thirteenth dynasty in Egypt that was not bogus but then it could just be because the records from that period are so scanty.

Albert,

Yes, Crossing the Rubicon was excellent.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Sun 04 May 2014, 8:02 am

Just another bit of info on Swanson:  here is an update page for the first of the two books on War and its pretenses which he wrote recently after the Syrian gassings:


http://davidswanson.org/category/categories/war-lie

Note: 

The United States sought out war with Mexico, not the reverse.  There was never any evidence that Spain sank the Maine.  The Philippines didn't benefit from U.S. occupation.  The Lusitania was known to be carrying troops and arms.  The Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened.  Iraq didn't take any babies out of incubators.  The Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over to be tried in a neutral court.  Libya wasn't about to kill everyone in Benghazi.  Et cetera.  Even wars that people like to imagine as justified, such as World War II, were nonetheless packaged in lies; FDR's tales about the Greer and the Kearney and supposed secret Nazi maps and plans were a step on the steady trajectory from Woodrow Wilson to Karl Rove.

David gave full voice to Stan's questions in that book.  Even about the "good war" (WWII).

And, I particularly like this comment he makes here:

We've also been hearing that President Obama has no choice.  He's painted himself into a corner.  War simply must happen now, for better or worse.  This is nonsense, of course.  If Kennedy could back off from a nuclear pissing match with Khrushchev, then surely Obama can accede to the opinion of the United States and the world on the matter of Syria.  Had Kennedy prioritized stupid machismo, we wouldn't admire him more. We wouldn't do anything at all.  We'd all be dead or never born.  Wars, despite a common lie, are not inevitable.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by greg parker on Sun 04 May 2014, 9:25 am

Wiki actually does a reasonable job on the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

Here is an excerpt from my book on the "intelligence failure" in Bogota.


The CIA was rewarded with greater autonomy because it produced intelligence predicting trouble in Bolivia during the 1948 Pan-American Conference that did not transpire – to wit, a potential threat to Secretary of State, George Marshall. What it failed to produce was even one sentence on the potential for the threat that did come about – the assassination of Gaitán, the subsequent Bogotazo and ten years of blood-soaked power struggles.
           It was the perfect result all round for US intelligence.
          The CIA was not just granted greater autonomy.  A liberal leader who could have proved troublesome to US business interests, and who could not be bought off, was taken out, and the crime and riots that followed were blamed upon communists by people of considerable influence. These events in turn had the effect of underlining the need for Latin America to get behind the US and its anti-Communist union of nations. The CIA effectively muted criticism for its “intelligence failure” by simply blaming it all on a lone nut.  To answer why this tactic works to negate criticism, let’s go back to what was said in the introduction to this book: A committed lone nut, in the absence of sheer luck, is an unstoppable force, while government law enforcement and intelligence agencies can detect a conspiracy by various means and take appropriate steps, such will often not be the case with a determined solo effort.
            The message was out, and it was effective. The last role you should aspire to in the dramatis personae of US foreign policy protectors is that of independent liberal. 
And on Korea

The Korean War Intelligence "Failure"
             The undeclared war began on June 25, 1950 when the North Korean Army crossed the 38th Parallel that divided the Soviet backed north from the US backed south. 
        The official story has barely wavered. The aggressors were the North Koreans and the CIA had failed to foresee imminent danger. This obstinately obtuse view is encompassed best in a story broadcast by National Public Radio (NPR) to mark the 60th anniversary of the conflict. In fact, it takes a leaf out of the Warren Commission's ode to vitiation (officially known as The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy) by citing the very CIA documents to support its case that could and should have been used to destroy it.           
  One clear example of this comes from a CIA memo dated January 13, 1950 which states inter alia:
 
Troop build-up. The continuing southward movement of the expanding Korean People's Army toward the thirty-eighth parallel probably constitutes a defensive measure to offset the growing strength of the offensively minded South Korean Army. The influx of Chinese Communist trained troops... [is] further bolstered by the assignment of tanks and heavy field guns ... [yet] despite [these increases] in North Korean military strength, the possibility of an invasion of South Korea is unlikely unless the North Korean forces can develop a clear cut superiority over the increasingly efficient South Korean Army.

The CIA is then excused for this (supposed) completely dumbfounding and appallingly bad misreading of both North Korean intent and South Korean military superiority because it was "just three years old and lacked resources." This excuse completely ignores the fact that the CIA had been granted greater autonomy (and probably resources) after its "failure" in Bogotá. It also ignores the fact that despite being a mere three years old, the CIA was heavy with former OSS and SIS agents with many years of experience in the field. There was no misreading. It was an accurate assessment.

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Sun 04 May 2014, 9:34 am

One of the reasons (among many) why your book should be read, Greg.  A larger historical lesson about the continuity of motives and operational paradigms.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 04 May 2014, 4:51 pm

Thanks all. I fancy myself wise in many areas but I was quite naive about history. Not official history. Real history. When I came here and saw Greg's line "The Cold War ran on bullshit" I was intrigued. I didn't understand it then, but deep down it resonated and made sense somehow. My son made two tours of duty in Iraq following the death of my nephew over there. I was gung ho. You almost have to be to cope when you have skin in the game. But when my son left the Marine Corps, he was a cynical of politicians and official versions of things. He felt we were lied to about so many things. The more I thought about it, I had to agree. Now as I look into stuff I see a big repeating pattern of lies. Greg's book is about these patterns. The other books you suggest look very good and I'll have to check them out.

Everything runs on bullshit.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 04 May 2014, 10:11 pm

Stan Dane wrote:Everything runs on bullshit.

Sad, soooo sad.
And that's only because it's true.

At least as far as anything the government touches.
Most regular people don't seem to, and it is that alone that makes life worth much.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by greg parker on Sun 04 May 2014, 10:56 pm

terlin wrote:
Stan Dane wrote:Everything runs on bullshit.

Sad, soooo sad.
And that's only because it's true.

At least as far as anything the government touches.
Most regular people don't seem to, and it is that alone that makes life worth much.
While that's true, Terry, most of us do live our lives by the bullshit made possible because we're too distracted by bread and circuses and mass consumerism and breaking our backs to keep others in the lifestyle we'd all like to get used to.

Here is an example of the lies we accept and live by:

In Australia during the '70s and '80s we were told technology would make our lives easier and we could look forward to working less hours. We could also retire earlier at 55 with our private superannuation topped up with tax funded pensions. This would have the secondary effect of freeing up jobs for younger generations.

More recently we find the opposite has happened:
"Australia topped the overall rankings but performed poorly when it came to balancing work and life. The report also showed Australians devote less time each day to eating, sleeping and leisure (such as socialising, hobbies, games, computer and television use) than the OECD average."
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/fewer-workers-doing-the-long-grind--but-still-far-too-many-20130529-2nbwx.html#ixzz30kYKZ1fF 

and we're now told that's not enough. The aging population (they tell us) cannot sustain taxpayer funded pensions at the rate we are, so they are going to raise retirement age to 70.

Even if I live that long, I doubt I'll have too many years left after that to take it easy. Meanwhile, I have the right to keep making the bloated  ruling classes even more bloated, to send my kids to their wars and to be thankful for it all. 

Incrementally, we are being taken down the path that will see us become a Mini Me of the US (if we aren't there already). Small government, deregulation, selling off of assets, stripping minimum wages back to levels of 20 years ago, stripping of social safety nets, nothing at all for government to do except make foreign policy (which really means do as the US says), build the military for any upcoming US wars, and "protect our borders" from asylum seekers - mostly escaping those wars.  

As with Stan's meme's, this is funny because it's so close to the truth... and scary for the same reason
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/may/02/first-dog-commission-audit

A real fat-tailed dunnart

_________________
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I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 04 May 2014, 11:24 pm

Greg,

It is absolutely true that governments are making it harder and harder for us to live and plan for the future. Programs put in place usually do end up with the opposite result. Government is merely the window dressing for the goons in the back room having their way with the victims.

It has been going on for a long time and seems to be accelerating today. In the past it seemed they had to do something good for the people every now and again... today, it is all lip service.

Yes, Australia is becoming a mini-me US, just as Britain and Canada have become. If the powers-that-be continue uncontested, I should imagine the rest of the world will be there soon as well. Then we can celebrate that "all the world lives under democracy at last! Huzzah!" as we stand in the bread lines and get our ration of water for the day.

At times, even anarchy looks like a pretty good deal.

I saw a billionaire in the news a couple of months ago who was complaining that all the news about the rich getting even richer and this class divide building, well he was just a little worried. It said it made him look like the bad guy.

Today we find a lot of people abandoning American citizenship for reasons not dealing with taxes.

Perhaps "the American experiment in democracy", as De Toqueville so adroitly termed it, has run its course. Perhaps we should have followed Jefferson's maxim and exercised a little revolution now and then.

But as bad as the government's have made our lives, I still have friends I can count on, family members that pull together, neighbors who believe being neighborly is still a good way to live life. The bullshit that comes down the pike may affect the way we live our lives but the quality of relationships can be sustained. And they will still be here after this form of government has completely disintegrated.

Anyway, it is a mess the governments have made of things that we have to live in but survivors make the best of what they've been given.

If Kennedy ever intended us to have a legacy of the world he and Robert envisioned we really need to take down the thugs who overpowered the reins of power in that vacuum.


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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 05 May 2014, 1:21 am

terlin wrote:Government is merely the window dressing for the goons in the back room having their way with the victims.

Indeed.  Which reminds me of this cartoon:



This is the reason why I worry about the anti-government rhetoric so pervasive on all sides of the political spectrum today in the United States.  I am the first to decry our "secret government" in all its avatars.  But blaming government tout court can easily mask the real problem, and feed into the "neo-liberal" (aka "free market") philosophy which allows for precisely the undermining of economic justice we are discussing here.  Witness the "Tea Party".

Greg's example relates to something I mentioned to Dan on another thread: how Galbraith's Affluent Society affected my economic thinking at an early age.  I do not believe Keynesian economics is outmoded; if anything, it is precisely what is needed right now.  Galbraith was of course optimistic in his vision of a society where the surplus was so great that it could be redistributed without unfairness, and where the workforce would enjoy precisely the promised benefits mentioned -- less work time, early retirement, provision for the future workforce.  Galbraith obviously did not envision the steady and secret erosion of government's role as the great equalizer subsequent to the early 60s.

But if (democratic) government and a free press are not our bulwark against oligopoly/fascism, what is?  I am open to the theories of the socialist-anarchists, yet remain unpersuaded that localized, decentralized self-government can in the end rein in the power of concentrated wealth in our current post-capitalist divided society.

Terlin, I think you are right about Jefferson.  And we should also recall JFK's own words:  "those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Mon 05 May 2014, 2:58 am

Albert Rossi

terlin wrote:Government is merely the window dressing for the goons in the back room having their way with the victims.

Indeed.  Which reminds me of this cartoon:



I think you are right about Jefferson.  And we should also recall JFK's own words:  "those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."

Al,

Great cartoon! I remember seeing that ages ago and laughed so hard I almost fell off my 401k.

As many people observe: the government is the people... but until the people sit up and do something they have permitted others to usurp that power. But most people don't have the time or inclination to get involved.

There are so many philosophies about government out there that sound great on paper whether localized or centralized, communist or capitalist. The only problem is adding real people into the mix. None of these systems seem to be designed for regular people.

Regular people do not care to control industries or countries around the world, most do not even want to be stinking rich. A common fallacy of the "northern thinkers" in the debate of the War of Northern Aggression (or whatever other name you prefer) is that all the Southerners were fighting because they too wanted the right to own slaves.

They didn't. They took up arms against an invading army in order to protect their homes.

The majority of people in the world just want to work at a job they can feel satisfied with, have enough to cover food and shelter for their family and a bit more for leisure activities.

But in every human endeavor there are those who want what the neighbors have, want more than anyone else, and cannot even be satisfied with hundreds of billions of dollars. There are also people who want to abuse other people, torment other people and feel superior. That's what makes them satisfied and if they have to bend the framework of society a bit to get it, so be it.

Any form of government I have encountered in history sounds really good on paper but does not include those other people in the program. So a judicial system has to be derived, then a police force, then an army for bullies on the national level, and then an intelligence service to protect the "people" who then comes to protect the wealthy - as that is who foots the bill... The cycle always seems to revert to this scenario, throughout history.

Empires crash and burn and from the ashes the entire cycle begins again.

I do not see any way to prevent people from being people. It seems to be all we can do.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 05 May 2014, 3:47 am

I don't recall which documentary it was that I saw (I believe it was about a Stanford anthropologist) which described how a baboon society was radically transformed by an accident -- the contamination of a garbage dump they were raiding which, because of the fact that they are the ones at the top of the food chain, killed off all the alpha males.  That particular group of primates then reorganized itself around a cooperative model where the males bonded with the females and there were few outbreaks of violence.

Perhaps we need similarly to help natural selection along, but in the opposite direction from that contemplated by the Ayn-Randian social Darwinists.  Wink

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Terry W. Martin on Mon 05 May 2014, 4:44 am

Albert Rossi wrote:I don't recall which documentary it was that I saw (I believe it was about a Stanford anthropologist) which described how a baboon society was radically transformed by an accident -- the contamination of a garbage dump they were raiding which, because of the fact that they are the ones at the top of the food chain, killed off all the alpha males.  That particular group of primates then reorganized itself around a cooperative model where the males bonded with the females and there were few outbreaks of violence.

Perhaps we need similarly to help natural selection along, but in the opposite direction from that contemplated by the Ayn-Randian social Darwinists.  Wink

Al,

So, which garbage dump do we poison?

I read a kooky theory some years back where a guy proposed we simply stop using money then the really rich people would be neutralized. Good luck with that, huh?

One of the flaws I have always seen with capitalism is its inherent reliance on slavery. Investors do, in effect, hold a corporation hostage forever more. It also tend to create an idol wealthy class and who needs that, huh?

Not sure that I agree with "social Darwinists" but I would like to assist furthering the cause of natural selection. Perhaps that means I think I am one of those being naturally selected (LOL) but you gotta start somewhere.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 05 May 2014, 4:57 am

Well, the wink was meant as a wink, terlin.  After all, my proposal would be no different from any form of eugenics, if you took it seriously.  Just trying to make light.

Although I admit I can't help but think of Wall Street bankers, corporate CEOs, and military and intelligence leaders as all alpha-male baboons.

And speaking of slavery.  I have a few good Cold War jokes left over from the Reagan era that circulated amongst my grad school drinking buddies.  Not that any of us thought US corporate imperialism was any better than East Bloc totalitarian rule, but they were clever nonetheless.  Here's a good one:

Q:  What does the socio-economic system of East Germany retain from each of the "historical periods" (in the Marxist sense)?

A:   From Antiquity:  slavery.
      From Feudal Society:  hierarchy
      From Capitalism:  exploitation
      From Socialism:  the name

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Stan Dane on Mon 05 May 2014, 6:58 am

terlin wrote:The majority of people in the world just want to work at a job they can feel satisfied with, have enough to cover food and shelter for their family and a bit more for leisure activities.
I agree. I took an early retirement when I was 57. The opportunity fell into my lap right out of the blue, and given my age and income, I didn't want to wait to be told I wasn't needed anymore by some bottom-line number-crunching weenie who was higher on the food chain than me and bent on maximizing his bonus. I planned to consult or do something to leverage my skills and experience, but after I got a taste of true freedom, I passed on these opportunities. To symbolically burn that bridge, I even deleted my LinkedIn account. I spent much of my life on a corporate treadmill, adhering to someone else's schedule, running to and fro, watching life pass me by so I could make big bucks.
 
I'll tell you, waking up when you want to, sitting outside in your garden in the morning, watching the hummingbirds and the bees—when you would otherwise be in some office somewhere pitching some deal to someone who doesn't even like you—it's peaceful and liberating. I cherish my time now above all else.
 
I have enough. Enough to pay the bills, enough to buy food, and to keep a roof over our heads. I consider myself lucky. I know others are not so lucky.
terlin wrote:But in every human endeavor there are those who want what the neighbors have, want more than anyone else, and cannot even be satisfied with hundreds of billions of dollars. There are also people who want to abuse other people, torment other people and feel superior. That's what makes them satisfied and if they have to bend the framework of society a bit to get it, so be it.
I believe power is at the root of this. Some people just have to have it, like a narcotic. I think the desire for power is hard-wired in human beings. And when people acquire power, they want to keep it and use it. And, as in Nineteen Eighty-Four, using power generally means making other people suffer. You see it everywhere.
terlin wrote:One of the flaws I have always seen with capitalism is its inherent reliance on slavery. Investors do, in effect, hold a corporation hostage forever more. It also tend to create an idol wealthy class and who needs that, huh?
Capitalism is fraught with problems, but my experience in the US military taught me first-hand that socialism doesn't work. Sounds wonderful on paper, but it doesn't work in practice.
 
I do think a lot of wealthy people, just as with movie and sports celebrities (and politicians), feel they are part of an exclusive club. A club they want to keep others out of, otherwise it wouldn't be so exclusive, now would it? These people always seem to be in bed with the virtuous "public servants" who run things. They game the system to make it harder for the little guy to get his. Keep him locked out. Yes, there are a lot of greedy people in the world. Way too many of them.
 
Having said that, I don't label people evil just because they have wealth. I know many who have a lot and share it prudently. Good people. They don't fling it away wastefully until it's all gone.
 
I also don't think poor people are virtuous just because they're poor. I've know a lot of really shitty poor people who are poor because they chose to be. People who were given good, in some cases really great, job opportunities, only to squander them foolishly. People are not always poor because some rich guy fucked them over.
 
Just my warped view of things.

 

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by greg parker on Mon 05 May 2014, 7:19 am

Any form of government I have encountered in history sounds really good on paper but does not include those other people in the program.
Communism needs "the people" to be politicized in every facet of their lives.

Capitalism/corporatism needs "the people" to be dumbed down and anesthetized.

Propaganda and controlling the message are key to both with brute force and terrorism if necessary.

There is no "ism" that I would ever be fully satisfied with. It is said that victors get to write history - but they also get to write the "rules" and they will always do so for the "good" of the people (and/or democracy) while carefully creating loopholes so that the "rules" can be exploited or subverted by the elites.

For Western civilization, the rot set in when corporations were made equal to people.

Since then, anyone I could believe in to take a nobler course has been assassinated or taken out one way or another.  


They locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
The fools. They locked up the wrong man 
                                 LC            

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Goban Saor on Mon 05 May 2014, 7:29 am

The thread topic is, ‘Have we ever been told the truth about anything?’ According to the likes of Socrates, Plato, Diogenes, Kierkegaard, Einstein and TS Eliot, the problem not is that we haven’t been told the truth. The problem is that the majority of people don’t want to know the truth. To quote just one of those I mentioned, TS Eliot, ‘Humankind cannot bear very much reality’.
 
The only way things will ever change substantially for the better is by ditching the almost universally accepted notion that ‘the poor we shall always have with us’.
 
This notion was promulgated by the supposed social radical Jesus – the man who also reportedly preached, ‘whoever has will be given more and whoever has not will be given a kick in the arse’, or words to that effect.
 
The problem is that these propositions seem to have been accepted as axiomatic, if not divinely ordained, by the vast majority of the so-called homo sapiens species for as long as it can remember.
 
In fact these propositions apparently predate even the emergence of that species and are hardwired into the social structure of every species that has ever existed on this planet.
 
These propositions entail a pyramidical socio-economic structure the fundamental principle of which is inequality. (One could be pedantic and say that it is diamond shaped rather than pyramidical but that’s irrelevant to the crux of the matter.)
 
Essentially we have never evolved socially beyond the hierarchical model of the wolf pack. This model comprises three basic strata, the alphas, the betas and the omegas.
 
Thus we have the rich, the middle class and the poor. But since the core principle of democracy is equality and economic equality is the most important and tangible form of equality, none of our so called democracies are real democracies.
 
Homo homini lupus est – Man is a wolf to [his fellow] man.
 
Economic equality is a sine qua non for real democracy. This would entail, among other things, income equality for all fulltime workers and limiting the wealth of individuals and families.
 
This idea is radical and heretical but I have yet to hear a rational argument against it.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 05 May 2014, 7:37 am

Before Goban chimed in here, I was in the process of responding to Greg:

greg parker wrote:There is no "ism" that I would ever be fully satisfied with.

by stating that, from a certain standpoint, all "isms", like all political (or religious, or philosophical) labels, tend actually to reinforce the status quo through a kind of static, Platonic "essentializing". 

Which brings us back to Jefferson, and the need for what might be called, somewhat paradoxically, "continuous" revolution.  It promotes the role of the skeptic, the questioner, the iconoclast, as a necessary, dialectic counterpart to the myth-maker.

Goban:  I agree with you about economic equality and democracy. My little tale about the baboons was meant to suggest that social evolution can, under the right circumstances, occur, even among primates, species which seem particularly biologically hard-wired toward competition and hierarchy.  The problem is finding a way to generate such a change on a large scale without the oppressive tools Greg mentions.

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Re: Have we ever been told the truth about anything?

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