Neely St Questions

Sun 10 Apr 2011, 8:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

Looking for:

1. The name of the owner and/or landlord/lady of the Neely St property &

2. When the American Bakery Co. pay stub allegedly found on Oswald first came to light

Tue 23 Aug 2011, 5:19 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:Not problematically sure of what you're wondering here, but the Postal Zone 12 information in Harvey & Lee was without footnotes. Every initial & successive read on the whereabouts of that mailbox pictured it in Zone 12 close to Neely; I think John had written this Zone was a few miles due west of the Depository & in addition that it was beyond the Trinity River.

Richard,

That's fine - I had been wondering how close postal zone 12 was to Neely Street. Seems it was pretty close and, as you say, it is possible that someone could well have posted the order for Oswald - whether Ruth, Marina, or someone else...maybe during a short stroll or driving by a PO box one day (12th March)?

Pretty easy to surmise, from that, that Ruth drove over to Marina's and dropped off a sporting goods order coupon either before or after she swung by.

I'm very near-photographic on the contents of H & L, having had it open several years in succession on my table.

Usually finding nourishment from Sylvia's recipes. Mix w/ swwet corn. First find can. Bring to Mets game. Watch shortstop drive limo across Dealey infield. Study crowd reaction.

Thu 25 Aug 2011, 1:37 am

Hope to find that Zone info firsthand, even though suspect already accomplished & not stated. Will have opportunity to develop Ruth the 3-way forgeress theory when scanning capabilities return. That wicked witch watched too many Dorothy movies.

Glad to find ringside seat area cleared away for my KO of Sonny Liston in the rematch. Enjoyed the title bout, and saw some interesting graffiti on one seat; funny how my "Piper double" was ID'd at the time.

Decoding decoding in graffiti.

Cheers and watch out for earthquakes.

Sun 30 Oct 2011, 10:07 pm

Greg, Richard

Are we missing something quite fundamental concerning the "Jackson" pay-stub and the Cox's cardboard top?

If they were innocuous then where are the photographs of them? We have photographs of the bus ticket, the wallet, the contents of the wallet, the bullets, the shirt, the pants, the shoes...

...so where are the photographs of this pay-stub allegedly belonging to James A. Jackson and the cardboard top?

Are we being led down a garden path regarding Jackson?

And Greg, I'm beginning to suspect the photo of the kid on the balcony of Neely Street is not June. I think this is beginning to drive me nuts...

Sun 30 Oct 2011, 11:49 pm

Lee,

I asked June about the photo. She did not respond.

It may have already driven me nuts... but there IS something here and even if we can't pin it down - we can sure as hell annunciate the reasons to believe there is something to it.

I may have to let this go for now though. I made a promise to try and have a post up tonight on a new "person of interest"... but time has beaten me again. It's one of those people that when you see the information, you wonder how he escaped under the radar.

Meanwhile, can you say why you now doubt the photo is June?

Sat 12 Nov 2011, 10:54 pm

George Gray's widow, Clydie, recently told Ed LeDoux in an interview that her husband had worked for the city as a garbage collector while she worked at Akers Department Store at the time they lived on Neely.

On Nov 29, 1963, Landlord, M Waldo George told the FBI that he believed Gray had been employed at Texas Power & Light while Clydie had worked at Montgomery Wards.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=232

If MWG was right, it only opens up more question marks.

Firstly, MJ Fish, a clerk at Dallas Power & Light told the FBI that he had written the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" in the file for the address. He assumed he had got the name from either a neighbor at Neely, or from another utility Co. But neither is very likely. None of the neighbors would have known his name and the gas company had "Lee H Oswald" on their file --- in other words, they did not have the full name. And moreover, the landlord had him down as LH Oswald.

But if George Gray did work for Dallas Power and Light, he could have given the name to Fish.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10407&relPageId=60

And if Oswald did not in fact live there, or at least, had no interaction with Gray, he (Gray) could have got the name from Clydie (assuming Clydie did in fact work for Montgomery Wards).

The Oswald's had previously lived close to a Montgomery Ward's store. Oswald even purchased a TV and regularly cashed his Lesley Welding paycheck there.

Perhaps of interest also - MFF documents show there was a person with surname George who worked in the security section of Wards - and the store was also home to some Minutemen types.

And as with Klein's - they were based in Chicago and sold mail order weapons....

Sun 13 Nov 2011, 5:46 pm

Ed also asked Clydie about which church they attended. She was unable to recall.

We do know which church M Waldo George attended because he told the FBI he invited the Oswald's to the service.

This was the Gaston Avenue Baptist Church. As far as I can ascertain, it was part of the Southern Baptist Conference network. Evangelical/fundamentalist/deeply conservative/ANTI-CATHOLIC.

Fri 25 Jan 2013, 12:06 pm

I just got off the phone with Gordon Wayne Smith. I have no tape recorder. So these notes I took and fresh memory will have to be trusted; I could not make this up in 100 years.

He's not the Gordon Wayne Smith who worked in the old Houston Street warehouse. I thought that unfortunate, since I'd prepared 8 pages of questions about that. He used to work at the Railway Express building near the old warehouse, however.
I think he said something about the Express office being located in a bus station.

He used to live next-door to Lee Harvey Oswald & Marina, right at the Neely St. address. Same building. He saw Lee on occasion and certainly remembers seeing Marina.

He also used to live at the Elsbeth St. apartment, but not at the same time as the Oswalds. But he recalled seeing Lee Harvey Oswald cleaning a gun on a porch nearby on Madison St., about a block away.

On November 22 he drove by the TSBD about 12:25, heading back to work at Reynolds Metal Company- which was just behind Parkland. I think he said that Reynolds was located on Motor St. So he sure remembers all the commotion when the President was brought in.

And, his work just so happened to bring him by the Texas Theater in Oak Cliff when Oswald was arrested. He simply saw the gathering crowd; I don't think he saw Oswald being brought out.

I'm thinking of letting the Sixth Floor museum know about this, to perhaps get Gordon Wayne Smith's recollections on official record. I'm going to be speaking with him again in a few weeks, since I was totally unprepared for what he had to tell me. Feel free to add any questions you might have.

Fri 25 Jan 2013, 1:18 pm

Richard,

have sent a msg explaining that I think this is probably the person listed as "Wayne Smith" in the records. Also explained moving this post to the Neely St Questions thread.

Let me know you got the msg okay.

Fri 25 Jan 2013, 6:49 pm

Interesting, I'll have to re-read this Neely St. material. All I can say is there's an eyewitness to Lee & Marina living there. It really seemed that he hadn't spoken to a researcher before. Received a curiosity call from his wife, who said she'd spoken with FBI and Warren Commission people about Neely St., and I did contact the Sixth Floor Museum as this guy's story is amazing and should be recorded for posterity.

Fri 25 Jan 2013, 8:49 pm

Richard Gilbride wrote:Interesting, I'll have to re-read this Neely St. material. All I can say is there's an eyewitness to Lee & Marina living there. It really seemed that he hadn't spoken to a researcher before. Received a curiosity call from his wife, who said she'd spoken with FBI and Warren Commission people about Neely St., and I did contact the Sixth Floor Museum as this guy's story is amazing and should be recorded for posterity.

Richard,
maybe consider stepping back a bit? All we really know is that he is claiming things now that his wife specifically denied nearly 50 years ago. Can that be sorted in a way that makes her original statements explicable?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=995483

As far as I am aware, there are no witnesses, apart from Marina who claimed they ever saw Oswald cleaning or dry firing a gun on a porch (or anywhere else). Marina claimed he did this in their New Orleans apartment - but she was contradicted by every single neighbor - who to a man and woman - all claimed he spent a lot of time on the porch - reading.

If this guy is the real thing, then the 6th floor museum is just the place for him - because a witness to LHO cleaning a gun is a Lone Nutter's wet dream.

Come to think of it, if he has just made the whole thing up, then the 6th floor museum is STILL the right venue for him Go for it!

Sat 26 Jan 2013, 1:34 am

Yeah, I was thinking when I was hearing all about his whereabouts on November 22, that I was speaking with Hugh Aynesworth's double- his good twin, not the evil one.

And now this- his wife in denial about knowing Lee & Marina? Maybe his wife should start reading some Priscilla Johnson books. Rolling Eyes

Tue 29 Jan 2013, 8:58 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:Yeah, I was thinking when I was hearing all about his whereabouts on November 22, that I was speaking with Hugh Aynesworth's double- his good twin, not the evil one.

And now this- his wife in denial about knowing Lee & Marina? Maybe his wife should start reading some Priscilla Johnson books.

Richard, the issue for me is that the wife's denial came back in the early part of the FBI investigation. As a general rule of thumb (which is another way of admitting it doesn't always pan out this way), the earliest accounts are the most accurate/believable.

Please keep us updated. I'm curious as to what he has to say about what his wife said.

Sun 03 Feb 2013, 10:02 am

Just a dumb doublecheck here, Greg. I notice that on the first page of Oswald 201 File, Vol. 6, CD 6, Part 1 it reads

Vol. 6 DBB 16200
FBI Report {CD 6}
1 of 2

and when I look at WCD 6, the FBI DeBrueys Report of 8 Dec. 1963 re: Oswald on page 58 it contains the same interview with Mrs. Wayne Smith.

So I take it that parts of DeBrueys' report got lifted and inserted in Oswald's 201 file at CIA HQ.

Any idea what DBB 16200 signifies?

Mon 04 Feb 2013, 6:37 am

Reports and parts thereof can often be found in multiple files.

As best I can make out, DBB 16200, is a section or a part of a file. Wish I could be more specific.

Mon 04 Feb 2013, 8:08 pm

Thanks on that. When I looked at WCD 6 it struck me as curious that information garnered by none other than Warren C. DeBrueys would end up at Langley, considering his prominent role in the FBI's coverup, and his keeping close tabs on Oswald while in New Orleans. Langley's acquisition of this particular information is pretty straightforward and innocuous, but I'd say DeBrueys probably had some close contacts there, and certainly down in New Orleans. All in the family.

Sun 17 Feb 2013, 1:42 pm

Well, here's my follow-up interview with Gordon Wayne Smith, conducted about an hour ago. When I introduced myself he at first didn't even remember me, until I refreshed his memory with what he'd told me he'd done on November 22:

Q. So did Gary Mack ever get in touch with you, from the Sixth Floor Museum?
A. No, I haven't heard from him.

Q. That surprises me. I think you've got an important story to share. I want to follow-up a bit on our talk from a few weeks ago. You said you lived at the Elsbeth St. apartment, but not at the same time as Oswald. Do you recall about when you lived there? Was it before or after you lived on Neely Street?
A. I'm not certain just when I lived there. It's been a long time. But this was before we lived on Neely Street.

Q. And you had seen, one time over on Madison Street, Oswald cleaning a rifle?
A. My wife had seen him.

Q. This was in broad daylight?
A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall about what time of year that was? Spring, summer? About what month?
A. I'm not sure, but it was probably summer.

Q. That's pretty significant, because his wife Marina was the only person on record who ever claimed they saw Oswald with a rifle, and that was down in New Orleans. Do you remember about what time period in 1963 you lived on Neely Street?
A. My daughter was born in September 1962. We were raising her and it had to be early 63, that we lived on Neely Street. Springtime.

Q. Was this next-door to the Oswalds? Or in the same building? They lived in a duplex, or something like that.
A. It was next-door. There was an alley between the two properties.

Q. So you recall seeing Lee Oswald there on occasion?
A. Yes. Coming home in the afternoon. He would always walk down the alley. I never saw him use the sidewalk.

Q. You ever see him up on the balcony?
A. Yeah, I saw him up there. He was just someone I saw once in a while. There was never any conversation or anything like that. He wasn't anyone you'd ever think about until the assassination.

Q. And you said you saw Marina. Ever hear her talk? She spoke Russian.
A. I heard her talking, yeah, when she was out with the baby. I saw her a couple of times pushing her baby up the sidewalk.

Q. Any recollection that they ever had any visitors? People who came to see them?
A. No, none that I remember.

Q. They had moved down to New Orleans by May. Do you recall that anyone moved in there, after they moved out? Over that summer?
A. No idea. I never saw anyone over there again.

Q. Have you ever gone by your middle name, and been known as Wayne Smith?
A. Yes.

Q. Mind if I ask, was there any particular reason you preferred that?
A. I've been known by that since school days.

Q. Reason I ask is I came across an FBI interview from December 3, 1963, of a Mrs. Wayne Smith- I assume she's your wife-
A. Yes.

Q. And she lived at 2638 Alaska, and said she used to live on Neely Street, and she said she had never seen Oswald before, and she said, and I quote, "She and her husband had seen his picture on TV many times and they had discussed him and his activities and had agreed they had never known him" Endquote. So I'm wondering why you nevr told the FBI the things you're telling me.
A. They didn't ask me. They talked to my wife. I saw Oswald but I didn't know him.

Q. Especially if she'd seen Oswald cleaning a gun. I'd think they would be very interested in hearing about that.
A. Well, they had called her.

(one more post)

Sun 17 Feb 2013, 2:09 pm

Q. So, switching gears, let's get to the day of the assassination. You said you drove by the Book Depository about 5 minutes before the assassination?
A. It was probably 2 or 3 minutes before. I was coming down Elm Street when the cavalcade was coming right down Main.

Q. And you headed out on the Stemmons Freeway? Went through the triple underpass?
A. Yes.

Q. Was it a company truck you were driving? With lettering? That said Reynolds Metal?
A. Yes, it said Reynolds Aluminum.

Q. They make aluminum can for food & beverage companies?
A. They make aluminum windows and building materials. I pulled into work and the sirens were right behind me. One of the guys jumped off the loading dock and said the President's been shot.

Q. One of the guys ran right of the loading dock?
A. Yes.

Q. So you didn't even need to hear it broadcast on the radio.
A. I knew right away.

Q. And so, I take it you had a delivery that afternoon, that took you out to Oak Cliff. That brought you by the Texas Theater.
A. I had my radio on, and I heard that JFK was deceased while I was out on the Stemmons. I was headed out to Oak Cliff anyways and heard there was something going on at the Texas Theater. So I drove there to see what was going on.

Q. You went there on purpose?
A. Uh-huh.

Q. This was probably after Oswald was arrested? After they brought him out?
A. I got to within a block. There was cop cars all over the place, screaming and tearing off out of there. I parked my truck and walked up there probably within 5 minutes of when Oswald got arrested.

Q. Amazing. That's an incredible story, and I'm going to write Gary Mack again to let him know he should get in touch with you. One last thing- what's your opinion today about Oswald? Think he did what he was accused of? Or do you think there might have been a conspiracy?
A. He had a hand in it. He killed that police officer. But there was a second shooter. There was other people involved. There was a second shooter behind that fence.

Q. The grassy knoll?
A. That knocked him sideways.

Mon 18 Feb 2013, 11:32 am

Richard,

Thanks for sharing this here. Great job!

Do you intend keeping contact? I'm still curious about his wife's FBI interview. He did no more than confirm she was interviewed by them.

Another question for him if ou get back to him...

Did Reynold's employ Cuban refugees with the help of the Catholic Rescue Mission (or whatever it was called)?

Tue 19 Feb 2013, 3:55 am

Maybe another call will be worthwhile, in a couple of weeks, to talk to his wife. If she saw Oswald cleaning a gun that's extremely significant.

The conversation got a tad uncomfortable at that point, but I didn't want to become adversarial and lose him, since I had more things to ask. It felt like he was relating truth to me, not a fish-story that had morphed over the years. My impression is that the FBI caller (assumedly DeBrueys) wasn't all that interested in finding anything out from Mrs. Wayne Smith- asked her a couple quick questions in order to say he'd checked with her, in order to file a report- it's in the section of WCD 6 where the FBI canvasses the neighborhood. And the wording of the report, that the husband & wife had discussed Oswald and "had agreed they had never known him" is literally true, as the husband stated to me, although it creates the impression that they had never even seen him.

Anyways, I think his wife really saw Oswald cleaning a gun, on some porch just around the corner from 604 Elsbeth, on Madison Street. I wonder who might have lived there. This should have been a newspaper article and WC testimony in 1964, had it been properly investigated.

The Oswalds lived at 604 Elsbeth #2 from November 3, 1962 to March 3, 1963. And 214 Neely St., only a block and a half away, from March 3, 1963 to approximately end of April, 1963 (Lee went to New Orleans on April 23, and Marina drove down with Ruth Paine on May 10).

That might be called the Catholic Relief Society, that's one outfit I've heard of. I didn't anticipate getting back to Mr. & Mrs. Wayne Smith, but I'll ask about Cubans when I do.

Tue 19 Feb 2013, 5:44 am

Catholic Relief Society. That's it.

I ask because Reynold's hired at least one member of an anti-Castro group in Miami.

I can't find any Madison St in Google maps. There is a Madison Ave, but it's a 26 minute walk from Neely. Hardly just around the corner...

Wed 20 Feb 2013, 9:35 am

If Reynolds has/had a Miami office, I assume that company must be Reynolds-Alcoa aluminum, famous makers of aluminum foil, also known as tin foil in the States. They were big with TV commercials in the 60's.

I snagged a Rand-McNally atlas of Dallas in the Dartmouth College Bookstore about 10 years ago. A 1998 printing, been worth every centavo of the $4.99 it cost me. It lists a N. Madison Ave., running north-south one block due west of Elsbeth.

The info that Oswald's Elsbeth & Neely residences were a block and a half apart comes from Harvey & Lee; but gauging from the house numerals on this map (it lists the 200, 300, 400 blocks, etc.) they were almost kitty-corner, across the four-way intersection from each other.

So Mrs. Wayne Smith must be talking about North Madison Avenue. As she lived at #220 Neely, she'd have been just a tad closer to North Madison than Oswald was, at #214 or at #604 Elsbeth. It sounds like she's talking about a house almost at the corner of West Neely and North Madison.

Assumedly it was a rifle she saw, but I don't believe for a minute that Oswald owned one. It would be worthwhile to attempt to jog her memory about whose house it was, or who was living there. Apparently some nefarious associate of LHO. That alley he habitually walked back to his Neely St. place would have come from the direction of North Madison.

Wed 20 Feb 2013, 10:50 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:If Reynolds has/had a Miami office, I assume that company must be Reynolds-Alcoa aluminum, famous makers of aluminum foil, also known as tin foil in the States. They were big with TV commercials in the 60's.

I snagged a Rand-McNally atlas of Dallas in the Dartmouth College Bookstore about 10 years ago. A 1998 printing, been worth every centavo of the $4.99 it cost me. It lists a N. Madison Ave., running north-south one block due west of Elsbeth.

The info that Oswald's Elsbeth & Neely residences were a block and a half apart comes from Harvey & Lee; but gauging from the house numerals on this map (it lists the 200, 300, 400 blocks, etc.) they were almost kitty-corner, across the four-way intersection from each other.

So Mrs. Wayne Smith must be talking about North Madison Avenue. As she lived at #220 Neely, she'd have been just a tad closer to North Madison than Oswald was, at #214 or at #604 Elsbeth. It sounds like she's talking about a house almost at the corner of West Neely and North Madison.

Assumedly it was a rifle she saw, but I don't believe for a minute that Oswald owned one. It would be worthwhile to attempt to jog her memory about whose house it was, or who was living there. Apparently some nefarious associate of LHO. That alley he habitually walked back to his Neely St. place would have come from the direction of North Madison.

Thanks, Richard. Nth Madison does come up. Even though I wasn't looking for it, I should have spotted it. It is starting to ignite a bit more enthusiasm now cheers

I agree that a memory jog would be excellent. It is critical to try and pin down which house it was, or better still, WHOSE house it was.

But I still want some sort of explanation from Mrs Smith herself for what she is stated to have said originally. I'm persnickity like that, despite your otherwise sensible theory of it being caused by an uninterested FBI agent. Exclamation

Tue 06 Aug 2013, 9:38 pm

How convinced are we that a James Jackson lived at the Neely Street property prior to Oswald living there?

Wed 07 Aug 2013, 10:24 am

Lee David Farley wrote:How convinced are we that a James Jackson lived at the Neely Street property prior to Oswald living there?

Jackson was tracked down and interviewed by Ed LeDoux. Have no reason to doubt he did live there.

Not sure if I still have all the info from that. If not, I'll get in touch with Ed.

Wed 07 Aug 2013, 6:36 pm

greg parker wrote:

Lee David Farley wrote:How convinced are we that a James Jackson lived at the Neely Street property prior to Oswald living there?

Jackson was tracked down and interviewed by Ed LeDoux. Have no reason to doubt he did live there.

Not sure if I still have all the info from that. If not, I'll get in touch with Ed.

I clearly remember Ed tracking down James Jackson and his wife but something is bugging me about this and I cannot quite put my finger on it. None of this makes sense. I'm going to reread some of my old EF posts concerning this but from memory I'm sure the James Jackson-Lee Oswald tenancy overlap was the one that originally caused the FBI some problems until the owner went back on his original set of dates (that he read from his "records") and changed them to fit.

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