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    Shelley and Lovelady

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 7:08 pm

    Over at ED Forum, Andrej Stancak just made a point that applies to my previous post (at least to my mind in the wee hours of the morning here):

    To ask a witness if he/she has recalled seeing someone is a comparatively indirect evidence. A direct would be: "Look at this man in this still who was standing in the opposite corner of the doorway whilst you were also standing there. Who he was?" None of the witnesses has been asked this question. Mr. Frazier was shown the picture and asked and he just could not answer. Prayer Man stood even closer to him than to Molina. Mr. Frazier could answer: "This is certainly not a Depository employee" or "It was this and this person".

    Lovelady was never asked directly who the other Lovelady-looking figure was.
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 8:16 pm

    Stan Dane wrote:From Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, Chapter 9:

    Sean said he has just been listening to the May 1978 HSCA interview of Billy Lovelady, as archived by Greg Parker over at ReopenKennedyCase.  There are two electrifying exchanges:
     
    1. The FBI contacted Lovelady about the Altgens doorway figure the very evening of the assassination.

     
    2.  Lovelady is asked explicitly about a Prayer Man-style scenario.
     
    First, Sean said, the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady to identify himself in Altgens. Lovelady immediately does so.
     
    Next Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 8-15 minutes post-assassination (a time estimate given by photographic consultant Robert Groden, who is present in the room). Lovelady identifies himself immediately.
     
    Then the interviewer, out of nowhere, adopts a very curious line of questioning:

    HSCA: If a movie camera showed you farther in the center of the doorway than that person there [i.e. Lovelady in Altgens, who appears, due to the deceptive angle, to be well over to the left/west of the entrance] would you still identify that person as being yourself?

    LOVELADY: Sure would. I would say the other picture was not taken at the split second as the one to the left is.

    HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?

    LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
     
    Whether knowingly (i.e., with knowledge of the Prayer Man figure in Wiegman) or unknowingly (i.e., by pure speculation), the HSCA interviewer has preempted the very discussion we have been having in this thread:
     
    Two Lovelady-resembling men caught on film at the time of the assassination, one over on the west ("left") side of the entrance and the other more towards the center.
     
    Quite, quite extraordinary.

    Richard Hocking replied that this is a startling discovery. "Well done, Sean," he said. Bearing in mind that one of the tasks assigned to the HSCA photo panel was to examine the Altgens photo and develop convincing evidence to identify the man in the doorway who bore a strong resemblance to Lee Oswald, it seems likely they would have studied all available film and photos of the entrance for the time frame just before and just after Altgens snapped his shot. That means the panel should have looked at the Couch film, Wiegman, Darnell, Towner, in addition to Martin. And they would have been looking at originals, or very good copies. (Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area could pitch in.)
     
    Richard said the questions posed to Lovelady hint strongly that—at the very least—one or more of the panel members were aware of the figure in the upper NW corner of the entrance. It had to be more than idle speculation.
     
    Going back to the question posed to Billy Lovelady:

    HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?

    LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
     
    Unfortunately, Billy did not answer the question posed concerning the implications of identifying "that other figure." And puzzling that the logical follow-up question was not asked.  Richard said he can only guess the mission was carefully defined to identify Lovelady and not open up any larger issues.
     
    Listening to the recordings, Richard said there was another exchange on the first tape that also caught his attention. After establishing Lovelady's position on the entrance steps, some key elements of the following exchange are shown below:

    HSCA:  Did you see Lee Oswald on the steps?

    LOVELADY: No

    HSCA: "Would it have been possible from where you were sitting ... that he could have been there ...?

    LOVELADY: He could have ..."
     
    Lovelady had the chance, but declined to rule out the possibility that Oswald could have been there at the entrance. This exchange is around 25:25 in the first tape.  There are a few indistinct words designated by the ... if someone has better ears than mine, said Richard.
     
    Sean thanked Richard. Yes, he said, it is interesting that Lovelady is categorical that he didn't see Oswald "at any time" on the front steps but refuses to rule out the possibility that he may have been there at some point. Sean said he's listened over and over to his indistinct words following "Could have" but just can't make them out. "Frustrating," he remarked.
     
    It's also interesting that the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady if he was holding his lunch bag at the actual time of the shooting. Again, one has to wonder is the question prompted by the interviewer's being aware of the Prayer Man figure who is clearly holding something in his hand or hands.
     
    What really makes the interviewer's hypothetical about "two figures in that doorway at the same time" remarkable is that he locates these two figures precisely as per the configuration seen in Wiegman:
     
    1. Lovelady-resembling male standing way over on the left/west side of the entrance area
    2. Lovelady-resembling male standing more towards the center of the entrance area.
     
    What are the odds against this being a lucky guess?
     
    Sean mentioned that Robert Groden was in the room, but wondered if he was in the loop on the Prayer Man question.
     
    Worth noting is that Lovelady himself evidently believes—mistakenly—that Altgens is showing him right over on the left/west side of the entrance area. It's an understandable mistake, given not just the tricky perspective of Altgens, but also the fact that, just seconds before Altgens took his photo, Hughes's film caught Lovelady significantly more to the left/west. Lovelady moved a little east to keep the President's car in view as it passed west down Elm Street.
     
    Richard Hocking said, having spent much time using software to tweak the bass, treble, pitch, and playback speed settings, he finally stumbled onto a combination that rendered the indistinct portions of the conversation intelligible. He said this is his latest, and hopefully final, transcription of the exchange discussed above:

    HSCA:  Did you see—see Lee Oswald around the steps?

    LOVELADY: NO, at any time.

    HSCA:  Could he—would it have been possible from where you were sitting eating your lunch, that he could have been there and you didn't see him?

    LOVELADY: Could have—

    HSCA: (interrupting): OK

    LOVELADY: (continuing): inside or out.

    Excellent post Stan, some bits I had not deciphered yet.
    Lovelady was out there at least 15 minutes after, 8 mins is way too short for the cops to stand there already.

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 8:28 pm

    Thanks Stan, hearing it for myself was inspiring.

    Bart, 12:44 is about the closest your going to get,
    that is 14 minutes after the shooting, and what radio log and films converge to provide. Sawyer wasn't talking on his radio till this time. 
    Yes 8 minutes is commission timing and unbelievable for stated reasons.
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Sat 24 Dec 2016, 3:06 am

    Yeah fair enough and by the time the cops have actually postured themselves in front of the dlors w a clipboard we talk another few mins. 
    20 minutes while LOvelady had a quick ciggie  Go for it!

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

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