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    Shelley and Lovelady

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    Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Mon 19 Dec 2016, 11:49 pm

    I think most of agree that first day statements are generally more reliable. One of the drawbacks however, is that they often lack sufficient detail  to rule in or out later, more complete statements.

    Lovelady's statement falls into this category. As far as his post shot movements go, he simply says "we went back in the building and I took some police officers up to search..."


    Not so with Shelley, who does add more detail - detail that is at seeming odds with his later statements:

    "I heard what sounded like three shots.I couldn't tell where they were coming from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the president has been shot. This girl's name was Gloria Calvery who is an employee in the same building. I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what happened. I was on the first floor and I stayed by the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevators and went with police on up to the other floors. I left Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevators." 

    Shelley's second statement that day is where he claims to have been the one to "miss Lee" and tell Truly that Lee is missing. 

    I think the second statement is BS and is aimed at helping to incriminate Lee. But the first one should be regarded as honest in that it was too early to tell that the story needed work. 

    If we take it as factual, and Adams sighting of Shelley and Lovelady by the elevators as factual, then the timing has to take into account


    • the run across the street
    • a brief encounter with Calvery
    • A run back to the TSBD
    • A phone call to his wife - (possibly brief?)  


    IMO both men committed perjury when they claimed to look back and see Truly and Baker run inside. They saw them INSIDE - several minutes after the official record shows. Which means that what Styles initially told Sean Murphy is also the more accurate - that there was a few minutes delay in their running down. 

    They further committed perjury claiming Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps and gave them the news.  The phone call to his wife also went down the memory hole during Shelley's testimony.


    Last edited by greg parker on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:41 am

    Greg:
     
    What you say here makes sense (as usual). If this is the case and believing what Sandra Styles initially told Sean is correct, then both girls came down the stairs a little later.

    Let me map out what I think I'm understanding here.

    If Styles was initially correct, that means the time-frame of leaving the 4th Floor window and proceeding down the stairs to be on the 1st Floor in about 1 minute as claimed by Victoria Adams was off (because Styles accompanied her down). It actually took a bit longer than what Adams claimed in her testimony. Correct?

    What this means to me in the Barry's organs discussion you had in another thread is, to recap, Adams did indeed see Shelley and Lovelady when she got to the 1st Floor like she said in her testimony, not what Barry said she said to him later when he says she said she didn't she them. Her testimony was correct.

    However, she was incorrect all along that it took about 1 minute to make it down to the 1st Floor. It took longer and that would have to be the case in order to mesh with Styles initial statement to Sean which we think is correct.

    Again, Adams was right on who she saw but wrong on the time-frame.

    Before I proceed to think about this any further, is this correct?
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 10:25 am

    Stan, Miller is right about one thing: timing is one of the hardest things to recall accurately. 

    What I'm saying here is that if first day statements are reliable - at least as far as movements go, then regardless of the actual time it all happened, the sequence is something like this:

    Shots fired.
    Baker dismounts and starts his run
    Shelley and Lovelady cross the road
    Calvery tells them Kennedy shot
    They return to building
    Shelley phones wife
    S & L are now hanging around the first floor
    Meanwhile Baker has run past the TSBD toward some commotion at the Del-Tex
    Adams and Styles descend and see L & S by the elevators 
    Finding he is not needed, Baker returns to the other building that initially took his interest - the TSBD and enters with Truly. Alternatively, he is persuaded by Brennan that he is targeting the wrong building and goes back to the TSBD
    Baker (and Truly) sees L & S. Truly tells Shelley to keep an eye on the elevators wink wink. Whether or not Truly actually goes up with Baker is another question
    Somewhere in all that, Campbell and Reid have re-entered and see Oswald by the small store-room...
    Shelley goes over to Oswald and mentions that's the end of work for the day
    By now, there is a cop stationed at door getting ready to take names etc and check ID with Truly. Oswald flashes library card, is vouched for by Truly and exits
    Truly reports Oswald missing
    -------------------
    Later that day 

    -Det. Hicks tells press that Oswald met by cop at door and is let go
    -Baker transports the Braden incident at the Del Tex to the TSBD and remodels it slightly, including description which is based on the (inaccurate) Oswald description held in certain files and the same description that went out over police radio.
    -Later stories leaked to a reporter about a porter taking Oswald to the the 6th floor and witnessing the shooting, being frightened out of his wits and held by cops in "protective custody" is easily and truthfully denied. This all happened at the Del Tex and is described by Braden in his various statements. I also believe it happened a lot sooner than Braden describes... can't see a person in the building 10 or 15 minutes after the events asking to use a phone is going to cause the hysteria this did in the porter. That sort of reaction suggests timing that would fit better with a potential shooter leaving the scene.

    This is all just my take and I could be wrong. Just indicative of where I am at the moment. It is based on settling on certain statements/actions being factual (except possibly with timing) with those statements/actions forcing other actions to fit that timeline/sequence. 

    The statements/actions I am accepting include

    -Adams seeing S & L by elevators
    -Shelley's original statement about movements
    -Baker running past the TSBD
    -The elevator operator at the Del Tex running outside in a panic over Braden
    -Hicks statements to the press
    -Campbell's statments to press
    -Oswalds statements to Holmes

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 11:02 am

    greg parker wrote:This is all just my take and I could be wrong. Just indicative of where I am at the moment.
     
    Get the sequence first; the timing is secondary. Fucking brilliant!  
     
    Greg, you've laid a working hypothesis here, a model if you will.
     
    The hell with the Evica-Drago clusterfuck! The Stinky Swindle! The Gordon Grimace! The Morley Moo Moo! We ROKCers have us the Parker model! And he is humble enough to admit he could be wrong, but he lays it all out so we can follow his thought process.
     
    I love it. I now have a better framework to think about all of this.
     
    Thank you sir. Keep it up the great work!

    PS: You really fucked up, Gilbride. You were once one of us and now you are a drunken, rambling nobody. Get help before it's too late.
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 12:30 pm

    Stan, timing was an issue for the authorities in trying to get Oswald to Oak Cliff in time to shoot Tippit.

    Timing is an issue now for some researchers because they are still trying to show Oswald couldn't get down from the 6th floor in time for a 2nd floor encounter.

    Getting the timings perfectly accurate would be great - but not essential for us. Oswald was on the first floor, period, during the assassination and he was not Tippit's killer.  Those things have been proven by other means, so why go around and round on how long it took Baker to get inside, or how long this or that took?  If the official scenario is bogus, it follows that their timing is as well, so the idea is not to get hung up on either, but to reconstruct the whole thing from scratch.

    In broad brush terms, I think the official timing on aspects of key movements in and around the building are off by at least a couple of minutes. That is a "given" if certain statements/actions are accepted as fact as a starting point.  The more accurate and detailed the REAL timeline becomes, the easier it will be to guestimate timings using known "markers" - the starters gun being the first which went off at 12:30. 

    Thanks for the kind words!

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Stan Dane on Tue 20 Dec 2016, 4:44 pm

    greg parker wrote:Stan, timing was an issue for the authorities in trying to get Oswald to Oak Cliff in time to shoot Tippit.

    Timing is an issue now for some researchers because they are still trying to show Oswald couldn't get down from the 6th floor in time for a 2nd floor encounter.

    Getting the timings perfectly accurate would be great - but not essential for us. Oswald was on the first floor, period, during the assassination and he was not Tippit's killer.  Those things have been proven by other means, so why go around and round on how long it took Baker to get inside, or how long this or that took?  If the official scenario is bogus, it follows that their timing is as well, so the idea is not to get hung up on either, but to reconstruct the whole thing from scratch.

    In broad brush terms, I think the official timing on aspects of key movements in and around the building are off by at least a couple of minutes. That is a "given" if certain statements/actions are accepted as fact as a starting point.  The more accurate and detailed the REAL timeline becomes, the easier it will be to guestimate timings using known "markers" - the starters gun being the first which went off at 12:30. 

    Thanks for the kind words!

    You have a rare gift for being able to cut through all the clutter and see the forest for the trees. And to properly prioritize. 

    The main thing is Oswald was down near the entrance when the shit got real. The main marker. Start building what happened from there.
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 8:54 am

    And yet Lovelady is seen outside trying to get in the building what 15/20 mins after?
    Which is what he said in his HSCA testimony, he said he did not get back till much much later.


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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Wed 21 Dec 2016, 11:07 am

    Thanks Barto - had forgotten about these films.

    As you may be catching on, I'm suspicious about any times given. How confident are you about your 15 to 20 minutes?

    I can't hear to well at the moment and miss about every second word on that recording. Can you give me a brief summary of what he told the HSCA in regard to his movements?

    Oswald was in - went out - went back in - left. Can't see why a similar scenario can't apply to Lovelady.

    Also can't imagine why he would say he went back inside in his first statement unless it was true. I mean, what difference does it make? IT doesn't help or hinder the case against Oswald. It's a neutral statement.

    Is it at odds with his HSCA statement for him to go in, hang around the lifts for a bit with Shelley, take some cops upstairs and then descend to front steps again where Styles vaguely recalls seeing him post assassination?

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Faroe Islander on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 7:56 am

    Lovelady is outside approx. 20 minutes after the shooting, the guy from Alya´s film which I believe is Dougherty in a white tshirt, that also could be Lovelady, but if he is outside and is wearing his shirt here then maybe that is one more indication of the tshirt guy is Dougherty ?

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 9:09 am

    Faroe, when you say he was outside for approx 20 mins, do you mean for that whole time? 

    Again - how confident are we about the timing of the film? 

    Sorry - just trying to get my head around the confidence here with you and Bart and what supports that confidence. If I am missing something, I genuinely want to know what it is. And it is more than possible that I am missing something because I am not as well versed in the films as a lot of you. 

    But right now I can't see why he would lie in his first statement about going back in and I can't see how a film showing him outside 15  or 20 minutes later, disproves that he went back in initially before going back out.


    Last edited by greg parker on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 9:41 am

    Lovelady's first recording.
    At  23:30 it becomes interesting, but it is really hard to decipher.
    From his lunch (and coke fr 2nf fl lunchroom!) on the steps to people on the steps, but the latter part is just unlistenable to me. Can anyone decipher this?
    It is the first bit.
    After that he goes into who was there. Did he see Oz, could he have missed seeing him on the steps....etc.

    I would love to see a transcript of this, especially the last ten mins, coz that is where da juice seems to be at.

    Greg I am sorry I seem to have made a mistake w Lovelady's 25 mins. I cannot find it, I will need to dig out my notes.



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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 9:50 am

    greg parker wrote:Faroe, when you say he was outside for approx  mins, do you mean for that whole time? 

    Again - how confident are we about the timing of the film? 

    Sorry - just trying to get my head around the confidence here with you and Bart and what supports that confidence. If I am missing something, I genuinely want to know what it is. And it is more than possible that I am missing something because I am not as well versed in the films as a lot of you. 

    But right now I can't see why he would lie in his first statement about going back in and I can't see how a film showing him outside 15  or 20 minutes later, disproves that he went back in initially before going back out.

    It doesn't disprove anything, but it is just weird. 
    Sadly there is no timing connected with going back in. But the way I see it is that he just came back late and had to wait to get in and then mingle with the rest of the TSBD staff. And was then assigned duties to take a group of 11 law enforcement officers up to the 7th floor.
    The front door was in lock down, so how does he get out?
    Before the cops arrived ?
    Or did he really arrive that late?

    Here;s my theory:
    Lovelady came back late, and saw Oz going past the cops, as he told Norman. Too bad Hughes and Martin did not capture that!  drunken

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Faroe Islander on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 11:33 am

    I do not know the timing of this movie with Lovelady outside still wearing his red shirt, but I presume/guessing between 20-45 minutes after ? and I have no idea if he has been inside and went outside again, but I believe that the man in a white tshirt hat can be seen for 2 sec in the Alya film is Dougherty as Lovelady was inside and then outside again and not wearing his shirt with his cigarettes in the pocket ...

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 11:39 am

    Barto wrote:Sadly there is no timing connected with going back in.

    Not in his original statement, no. It provides minimal info. 

    And looking back on Shelley's first statement, he uses "I" and not "we" when talking about going back in. He also says he left Dougherty in charge of the elevators... which suggests that maybe Adams and Baker saw Shelley and Dougherty by the elevators and not Shelley and Lovelady - and that Styles memory of seeing Lovelady around the front area somewhere is probably accurate. 

    So with those amendments, I think we still have something here to work with.

    And yes... he did apparently tell Norman the cops had let Oswald out...and it's possible he is talking from having witnessed it rather than from general scuttlebutt. 

    Thanks Bart!

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 11:50 am

    Seeing Oswald leaving may also account at least in part, for Lovelady never admitting he was outside all that time...

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Thu 22 Dec 2016, 12:04 pm

    I have wondered in the past as to why the names were added later to Revll's list since it should be a list showing a rough order of leaving.

    http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/29/2949-001.gif

    The names added in hand writing:

    Roy Truly (presumed added as he was there all day and therefore was not "checked out".)

    Linnie Mae Randle (crossed out as added in error due to a confused phone call based on her brother - not her)

    Jack Dougherty (unknown why it was added - maybe he too stayed all day like Truly?)

    James Jarman (locked out)

    Billy Lovelady (locked out?)

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 6:52 am

    At what time did those coppers state they sealed the entrance?

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 7:54 am

    OK what I know so far. Some of it thanks to Robin Unger and some from Richard Trask.
    Hughes shot ten sequences. The TSBD front bit his last.
    In the sequence besides Lovelady Howard Brennan can be spotted. He is behind the copper that steps inside standing next to the WFAA reporter in his suit. Blink and you will miss it.

    He was waiting to be interviewed by the cops, which happened later on in the squad car in front of the TSBD steps, captured by William Allen.

    From Jack Martin, what I know so far is that it has to be 20 minutes after.
    But Lovelady is having a ciggie so at the same time he doesn;t look like he is in a rush to get back in.
    On the left in the green shirt is Bonnie Ray Williams, and only visible at the front of the Hughes film w his rain coat on and jet black hair is Danny Garcia

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 9:06 am

    barto wrote:At what time did those coppers state they sealed the entrance?
    That's another unresolved timing issue. Various cops and employees made various claims.

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 1:55 pm

    As the Hughes film shows they were literally not letting folks out by this time... yet were still letting some in.
    Hilarious... what was the secret password?

    Billy having a smoke break out front means at least he didn't leave his ciggies up on six.... or does it?

    Harkness starts the clock for sealing the building at 12:36.
    (per radio log)
    But the entrance was not sealed till after Sawyer arrived went to the top floor, looked around then came back down and soon thereafter posted officers to do just that. The good Sgt saying the rear was covered.
    If you discount the roll up bay doors it may have been "sealed" at 12:44 (imo) that would be seven minutes after the supposed 12:37 time of arrival for Sawyer... and a minute after his call for more men at 12:43.
    If you can show Sawyer could have done what he admitted he did in under seven minutes, then be my guest.
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by greg parker on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 2:11 pm

    Ed. Ledoux wrote:As the Hughes film shows they were literally not letting folks out by this time... yet were still letting some in.
    Hilarious... what was the secret password?

    Billy having a smoke break out front means at least he didn't leave his ciggies up on six.... or does it?

    Harkness starts the clock for sealing the building at 12:36.
    (per radio log)
    But the entrance was not sealed till after Sawyer arrived went to the top floor, looked around then came back down and soon thereafter posted officers to do just that. The good Sgt saying the rear was covered.
    If you discount the roll up bay doors it may have been "sealed" at 12:44 (imo) that would be seven minutes after the supposed 12:37 time of arrival for Sawyer... and a minute after his call for more men at 12:43.
    If you can show Sawyer could have done what he admitted he did in under seven minutes, then be my guest.
    Thanks Ed. Have said before I suspected it took longer than claimed. 

    Password: I no see-um Oswald anywhere anyhow chief.

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 3:16 pm

    Bart,

    He is saying at 23:30 that he was on the steps and had his lunch bag (sandwich and apple?)
    and a coke he got from second floor in his hands or between his legs on the steps.
    He names Sarah Buell etc.
    He says he was on second or third step.
    at about 25:45 he is asked about seeing Oswald on the steps.
    NO! says Billy
    He is asked if how he was sitting eating his lunch etc if he could have missed Oswald on the steps.


    (The questioning is about Prayer Man! Where else and whom else could they be alluding to? Behind Billy and about Oswald... wow thx Barto!)



    Last edited by Ed. Ledoux on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : the coke bottle, is now Billy's...)
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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 6:02 pm

    Yes Ed, these are the bits I managed to decipher as well, but some bits are just inaudible....aaaargh

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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by barto on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 6:13 pm


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    Re: Shelley and Lovelady

    Post by Stan Dane on Fri 23 Dec 2016, 6:46 pm

    From Prayer Man: Out of the Shadows and Into the Light, Chapter 9:

    Sean said he has just been listening to the May 1978 HSCA interview of Billy Lovelady, as archived by Greg Parker over at ReopenKennedyCase.  There are two electrifying exchanges:
     
    1. The FBI contacted Lovelady about the Altgens doorway figure the very evening of the assassination.

     
    2.  Lovelady is asked explicitly about a Prayer Man-style scenario.
     
    First, Sean said, the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady to identify himself in Altgens. Lovelady immediately does so.
     
    Next Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 8-15 minutes post-assassination (a time estimate given by photographic consultant Robert Groden, who is present in the room). Lovelady identifies himself immediately.
     
    Then the interviewer, out of nowhere, adopts a very curious line of questioning:

    HSCA: If a movie camera showed you farther in the center of the doorway than that person there [i.e. Lovelady in Altgens, who appears, due to the deceptive angle, to be well over to the left/west of the entrance] would you still identify that person as being yourself?

    LOVELADY: Sure would. I would say the other picture was not taken at the split second as the one to the left is.

    HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?

    LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
     
    Whether knowingly (i.e., with knowledge of the Prayer Man figure in Wiegman) or unknowingly (i.e., by pure speculation), the HSCA interviewer has preempted the very discussion we have been having in this thread:
     
    Two Lovelady-resembling men caught on film at the time of the assassination, one over on the west ("left") side of the entrance and the other more towards the center.
     
    Quite, quite extraordinary.

    Richard Hocking replied that this is a startling discovery. "Well done, Sean," he said. Bearing in mind that one of the tasks assigned to the HSCA photo panel was to examine the Altgens photo and develop convincing evidence to identify the man in the doorway who bore a strong resemblance to Lee Oswald, it seems likely they would have studied all available film and photos of the entrance for the time frame just before and just after Altgens snapped his shot. That means the panel should have looked at the Couch film, Wiegman, Darnell, Towner, in addition to Martin. And they would have been looking at originals, or very good copies. (Perhaps someone with more knowledge in this area could pitch in.)
     
    Richard said the questions posed to Lovelady hint strongly that—at the very least—one or more of the panel members were aware of the figure in the upper NW corner of the entrance. It had to be more than idle speculation.
     
    Going back to the question posed to Billy Lovelady:

    HSCA: Okay, alright. If it showed two figures in that doorway at the same time, and you could positively identify one as yourself, would that have any bearing on your identification of that other figure?

    LOVELADY: No, that’s still me at the left [of the] doorway.
     
    Unfortunately, Billy did not answer the question posed concerning the implications of identifying "that other figure." And puzzling that the logical follow-up question was not asked.  Richard said he can only guess the mission was carefully defined to identify Lovelady and not open up any larger issues.
     
    Listening to the recordings, Richard said there was another exchange on the first tape that also caught his attention. After establishing Lovelady's position on the entrance steps, some key elements of the following exchange are shown below:

    HSCA:  Did you see Lee Oswald on the steps?

    LOVELADY: No

    HSCA: "Would it have been possible from where you were sitting ... that he could have been there ...?

    LOVELADY: He could have ..."
     
    Lovelady had the chance, but declined to rule out the possibility that Oswald could have been there at the entrance. This exchange is around 25:25 in the first tape.  There are a few indistinct words designated by the ... if someone has better ears than mine, said Richard.
     
    Sean thanked Richard. Yes, he said, it is interesting that Lovelady is categorical that he didn't see Oswald "at any time" on the front steps but refuses to rule out the possibility that he may have been there at some point. Sean said he's listened over and over to his indistinct words following "Could have" but just can't make them out. "Frustrating," he remarked.
     
    It's also interesting that the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady if he was holding his lunch bag at the actual time of the shooting. Again, one has to wonder is the question prompted by the interviewer's being aware of the Prayer Man figure who is clearly holding something in his hand or hands.
     
    What really makes the interviewer's hypothetical about "two figures in that doorway at the same time" remarkable is that he locates these two figures precisely as per the configuration seen in Wiegman:
     
    1. Lovelady-resembling male standing way over on the left/west side of the entrance area
    2. Lovelady-resembling male standing more towards the center of the entrance area.
     
    What are the odds against this being a lucky guess?
     
    Sean mentioned that Robert Groden was in the room, but wondered if he was in the loop on the Prayer Man question.
     
    Worth noting is that Lovelady himself evidently believes—mistakenly—that Altgens is showing him right over on the left/west side of the entrance area. It's an understandable mistake, given not just the tricky perspective of Altgens, but also the fact that, just seconds before Altgens took his photo, Hughes's film caught Lovelady significantly more to the left/west. Lovelady moved a little east to keep the President's car in view as it passed west down Elm Street.
     
    Richard Hocking said, having spent much time using software to tweak the bass, treble, pitch, and playback speed settings, he finally stumbled onto a combination that rendered the indistinct portions of the conversation intelligible. He said this is his latest, and hopefully final, transcription of the exchange discussed above:

    HSCA:  Did you see—see Lee Oswald around the steps?

    LOVELADY: NO, at any time.

    HSCA:  Could he—would it have been possible from where you were sitting eating your lunch, that he could have been there and you didn't see him?

    LOVELADY: Could have—

    HSCA: (interrupting): OK

    LOVELADY: (continuing): inside or out.
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