Carolyn Arnold

First topic message reminder :

Let's start out with 3 common sense assumptions:

• Manual workers were not welcome to sit and eat on the 2nd floor lunchroom which was set aside for the office workers on that floor. That space was in fact sub-let to the book companies who would not want to be paying for the privilege of having their besuited salesmen having to sit next to dirty unkempt laborers.  Indeed, there are no witnesses that I'm aware of, to suggest that any of the laboring crew did more than grab a drink from up there.
  
• That the females who worked together on the 2nd floor left to watch the parade together. This is supported by Arnold stating to the FBI she went down to watch sometime between noon and 12:15, Virginia Rackley, who put the time she left as about 12:15 and Geneva Hine who volunteered to stay and answer phones so all the others could go. I'm sure with that offer, they did not leave in relays.
  
• That even if Arnold became aware at any time later, that the assassination had taken place at 12:30 - that is not evidence that she knew on the day that it was running 5 minutes late. This is a key issue in regard to any claim that she never left her office until 12:25.
  

 

If you believed that the motorcade was due at 12:25, you are not going to leave going down for it until 12:25. If your co-workers left at 12:15 and someone had volunteered to stay and answer any calls, you are not going to leave it until 12:25 to go down. Arnold left her office just as her initial FBI report states.

Her second statement appears in CE 1381 which is a SIGNED statement answering a set series of questions that the WC asked be put to all employees. Among the questions were, "did you see Oswald during the assassination"? "Did you see any strangers that day?" and "What time did you leave work for on that day?"

One question that was NOT asked was "what time did you break for lunch?" We know her "12:25" was not in response to a question NOT asked. We are therefore left with only ONE option: her "12:25" was her answer to the question "what time did you leave work for the day?" When she broke for lunch, she had not finished work for the day. Her day finished as soon as she realized she could not reenter the building. She therefore used the time she thought the assassination took place as her time of "finishing work".

Any belief that she should have known by the time she gave that statement that the assassination happened at 12:30 is understandable. But the belief that she should have known does not in any way over-ride any of the above.

Her story to Goltz that she saw Oswald seated in the 2nd floor lunchroom is defeated by point 1 above. 

I think her memory was confused by reading this: "... saw Oswald sitting..."

 Despite any claims to the contrary, Oswald was in the vestibule on the first floor when spotted by Arnold and the time was closer to 12:15 than 12:25.

Yes Bart, what Ed said.

A couple more thoughts. One is that the FBI placing her outside looking through the glass at Oswald inside was the only way to make her identification of him tenuous. It was really the only way to do so. Interesting that they felt comfortable having it happen on the first floor level. Had she actually stated she saw him inside, in the DR, on the first floor?

Second is simply that she could have had her drink of water at the fountain on the second, gone past an empty second floor lunch room on her way to the back stairs down to first floor, walked out, seen Oswald in the Domino Room "at the booth on the right", and gone on out the front. Years later she could have recollected differently and put him on the second floor for several possible reasons; memory or motivation.

One thing rings clear from Bart's postings and that is she saw Oswald when other people were seen on the sixth. That's conspiracy.

Is she a ditz?
I mean I read her account, try to imagine the questions SA Harrison would be asking.
She really needs shown the images of herself spun around looking back.,
That would explain to her how that happened, that she would be able to see him.
The image proves she looked back or was 'spun around'.

There is no further explanation needed.
She said she saw him inside the glass, and then she is caught looking back, documented as LOOKING BACK.

Her statements are recorded in a document of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 
Her late arriving lunchroom and water trip are not believable in the slightest.
She saw Lee, and could corroborate his alibi.
This makes the door closing/reflection seen in the Gerda Dunkle GIF important.
Lee was a few steps inside that door according to Arnold.
Lee claimed to step out to see what the commotion was.
He steps to the side as this is only place to stand, and as women are making their way up the stairs ready to reenter the building and door.
Thus his location in Wiegman/Darnell out of the way along west wall.

Prayer Man is Lee Oswald.
Carolyn unknowingly makes it undeniable.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Is she a ditz?
I mean I read her account, try to imagine the questions SA Harrison would be asking.
She really needs shown the images of herself spun around looking back.,
That would explain to her how that happened, that she would be able to see him.
The image proves she looked back or was 'spun around'.

There is no further explanation needed.
She said she saw him inside the glass, and then she is caught looking back, documented as LOOKING BACK.

Her statements are recorded in a document of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 
Her late arriving lunchroom and water trip are not believable in the slightest.
She saw Lee, and could corroborate his alibi.
This makes the door closing/reflection seen in the Gerda Dunkle GIF important.
Lee was a few steps inside that door according to Arnold.
Lee claimed to step out to see what the commotion was.
He steps to the side as this is only place to stand, and as women are making their way up the stairs ready to reenter the building and door.
Thus his location in Wiegman/Darnell out of the way along west wall.

Prayer Man is Lee Oswald.
Carolyn unknowingly makes it undeniable.

Well said Ed.

And she then went on a denial exercise in 1978.......

I still want to know what got her to do these interviews in such a short time span.

This is what could have kicked things into gear....Nov 15 1976

Ed was right. The second floor diagram, from the feds (thx to Gary Murr), , clearly shows the water cooler (and not fountain) in the corridor leading to the front stairs. If she took water from that cooler she could NOT have seen Oz sitting in the lunch room, as depicted in the JFK movie.
Which was a fairy tale to begin with since workers were NOT having their lunch in that room (they were having lunch in the Domino Room on the first fl instead)









As depicted in Oliver Stone's JFK (W.B.)

I also need to add that the ladies room is on the bottom left corner, meaning even further way from the lunch room.
So she either went to the fountain/water cooler or the ladies to get a glass of water. My money is on the cooler.
There is no tap/sink in the 2nd fl lunch room at all.

Oh btw... Second floor lunchroom has no water.
No sink.
No faucet.
Likely no glasses.
No way to produce an glass o' water.

Carolyn Nearn Arnold would know as much.
Cheers, Ed

This is from my forthcoming update on the paper "Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter."


Carolyn Arnold is another person of interest mentioning a first floor observation of Oswald and with her FBI statement from Nov. 26^th she definitely deserves her own mini chapter. Carolyn Arnold, Ochus Campbell’s secretary and pregnant at that time, is seen in the Dave Wiegman film standing in front of the TSBD while the motorcade is passing by. She is seen below looking towards the Dal-Tex building, during the shooting, strange as that may seem. This is before the headshot. Me and my fellow R.O.K.C. clan are pretty sure someone fired shot(s) from the Dal-Tex building, remember Baker wasn’t sure from which building where the shots were fired from. His testimony and his filmed movement support that


Carolyn Arnold seen with her head turned towards the Dal Tex building during the shooting in the Wiegman film.






 

And from thereon it is all going wrong. The above statement is suppressed, but dug out by Harold Weisberg. And this is widely written about inside his book Photographic Whitewash.

[url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/A Disk/Arnold Carolyn/Item 08.pdf]Howard Roffman and Weisberg try very hard to obtain the original statement from the FBI, but to no avail[/url]. There is some good documentation to read about this at [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/A Disk/Arnold Carolyn/Item 08.pdf]Weisberg’s archive[/url].
The timing in the doc below is wrong (it should be PM, and this is noted and corrected).


Carolyn Arnold is not called up as a witness for the W.C. either.





Carolyn Arnold’s (these day known as Carolyn Johnston) interview with Earl Golz in the Dallas Morning News 1978. The highlighted bit in the middle column is interesting in relation to the Wiegman still. As it shows her changing her view towards the Dal Tex building against what everyone else does. 



 
 
 
 
 







 
But think also about the timing perspective she mentions. Carolyn Arnold claimed, in 1978, that she saw Oswald in the lunchroom around 12:15. And compare that with the statement of Marrion Baker, who claimed, in 1964, that he saw Oswald walking into the lunchroom around 12:31.
 

Carolyn Arnold also gets a brief mention in Sylvia Meagher’s article “The Curious Testimony of Mr. Givens”





And then there is Joe Molina’s statement to B.L. Senkel in which he states that he did not see Oswald and that he left the lunch room at 12:15. Now surely he would have made a mention of Oswald sitting in that lunch room at that time had he seen him. Molina worked on the same floor as Carolyn Arnold. 





Thanks to Greg and Ed for their input.

As I glanced over Bart's FBI-Murr diagram of the TSBD second floor, it occurred to me that the layout looked different than in the WC diagram (CE 1118). I cropped the NW portions of each of the diagrams here along with my observations and comments.    

Ed. Ledoux wrote:Is she a ditz?
I mean I read her account, try to imagine the questions SA Harrison would be asking.
She really needs shown the images of herself spun around looking back.,
That would explain to her how that happened, that she would be able to see him.
The image proves she looked back or was 'spun around'.

There is no further explanation needed.
She said she saw him inside the glass, and then she is caught looking back, documented as LOOKING BACK.

Her statements are recorded in a document of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 
Her late arriving lunchroom and water trip are not believable in the slightest.
She saw Lee, and could corroborate his alibi.
This makes the door closing/reflection seen in the Gerda Dunkle GIF important.
Lee was a few steps inside that door according to Arnold.
Lee claimed to step out to see what the commotion was.
He steps to the side as this is only place to stand, and as women are making their way up the stairs ready to reenter the building and door.
Thus his location in Wiegman/Darnell out of the way along west wall.

Prayer Man is Lee Oswald.
Carolyn unknowingly makes it undeniable.

This Ed, is brilliant my friend. Great thread and really unbelievable stuff by all. This is compelling!

Stan Dane wrote:As I glanced over Bart's FBI-Murr diagram of the TSBD second floor, it occurred to me that the layout looked different than in the WC diagram (CE 1118). I cropped the NW portions of each of the diagrams here along with my observations and comments.    

Well spotted Stan. But I need to add this detailed drawing as well.


The thing I noticed was the small space inside that fake vestibule, where Baker was standing inside and Truly leaning in. Truly would have barely been able to see Oswald. That whole position scenario is a complete and utter fake.

The detailed drawing looks like the official diagram so this tells me CE 1118 is probably a correct depiction of the layout.

At the same time it is tiny, no wonder Truly stated he was leaning in....