Choose Search Type
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Open letter to NBC
Today at 12:37 pm by Jake Sykes

» Hargrove Claiming Victory
Yesterday at 4:35 pm by Stan Dane

» ROKC Art Gallery
Tue 19 Sep 2017, 4:28 pm by steely dan

» Anatomy Of A Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter
Tue 19 Sep 2017, 5:42 am by Ed. Ledoux

» Baker created his own shadow on the pavement at the end of Darnell
Mon 18 Sep 2017, 9:39 pm by Stan Dane

» Anatomy of Lee Harvey Oswald's Interrogations
Mon 18 Sep 2017, 9:37 am by barto

» Signature - is it Lee or is it Harvey?
Sun 17 Sep 2017, 7:51 am by greg parker

» No Shots Fired From The TSBD
Sun 17 Sep 2017, 3:33 am by barto

» James Bookhout
Sun 17 Sep 2017, 2:04 am by Jake Sykes

Log in

I forgot my password

Social bookmarking

Social bookmarking Digg  Social bookmarking Delicious  Social bookmarking Reddit  Social bookmarking Stumbleupon  Social bookmarking Slashdot  Social bookmarking Yahoo  Social bookmarking Google  Social bookmarking Blinklist  Social bookmarking Blogmarks  Social bookmarking Technorati  

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Keywords

Prayer  kangaroo  doyle  

RSS feeds


Yahoo! 
MSN 
AOL 
Netvibes 
Bloglines 


Affiliates
free forum
 



Understanding Lee

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Understanding Lee

Post by greg parker on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 11:52 pm

Lee was diagnosed with schizoid features and passive aggressive tendencies by Hartogs at Youth House. Someone else at Youth House noted he was "schizy" in information related to another agency. 

In the report of Social Worker, Evelyn Strickman, it is noted Lee is

Laconic and taciturn, Lee answered questions, but volunteered almost nothing about himself spontaneously. 

and that he 

agreed to answer questions if he wanted to, rejecting those which upset him

Under interrogation in Dallas in 1963, Holmes commented that 

Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that he didn’t want to answer. 

Others in the room made similar comments.

----------------------------------

These reports, separated by 10 years, show a pattern consistent with both the 1953 diagnosis and my belief that it was actually Asperger's. 

http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/5987/what-are-the-differences-between-aspergers-syndrome-and-schizoid-personality-di wrote:What are the differences between Asperger's Syndrome and Schizoid Personality Disorder?

They are specifically listed as two separate disorders in the ICD, but what are the differences between Asperger's Syndrome and Schizoid Personality Disorder?

Since both result in a withdrawal from social situations, the two can seem quite similar to an outside observer; is there any accurate method used to distinguish between the two in a subject?

It should be noted that neither condition is a psychiatric condition and have nothing to do with schizophrenia.

With Oswald, the big difference is that Hartogs only had the option of schizoid due to the fact that Asperger's was not yet recognized in the US.

Among several other differences - someone with schizoid tendencies would be less likely to join the armed forces and less likely to learn a Foreign language. Someone with Asperger's could easily do both.
 
Although I do think he had Asperger's, there is another far more intriguing possibility I hinted at in volume 2 of Lee Harvey Oswald's Cold War

lee harvey oswald's cold war wrote:In 1949, a series of delinquent case studies was syndicated. It was a hot topic in all major cities, but particularly in New York with its troubled mix of ethnic races clinging to invisible neighborhood borders and ancient hostilities. Cramped and decaying tenements, rat infested halls and alleys and a vocal, hostile nativist element within the larger community all tempered the steel,  all fed the resentment in the offspring of these immigrants. 
            We want to focus on the case of “Tommie” published on October 23, 1949.
            Tommie is a small, thin 13 year old with tousled hair and blazing brown eyes. He is captured after a failed burglary of a jewelry store. Tommie is bitter, hostile and defiant. At the station, the Sergeant notes Tommie looks ragged and half-starved. He has been sleeping rough for months after running away from home and has once even snatched the purse of an old lady. Institutions had not changed him in the past, let alone contained him. He is “incorrigible” and headed by big time trouble as an adult.
            The Sergeant orders he be taken to Youth House, adding that they should be warned about him.
            Tommie is hauled, kicking and screaming, to the youth detention center and turned over to Executive Director, Dr. Frank Cohen.
The officer warns Cohen that no institution will house him anymore, but the smiling director assures the officer that they will take him. At this point, Tommie recalls being told by a former inmate that kids are never punished in Youth House and sets out to test the gossip by calling the officer a “big flatfoot” and spitting on his shoe.
            Tommie is not punished, so he tries again by threatening to spit in Dr. Cohen’s face. Dr. Cohen only laughs and commences booking Tommie in before explaining the routine. There are four dormitory floors where the boys sleep in individual bedrooms. There is also a recreation room with a supervisor ready to help any time of the day or night. The boys rise at 7:00 a.m., take a shower, dress, spread their bed and go down to the cafeteria for breakfast. At 8:30, school commences. Noon is lunchtime, and after 3:00 p.m. there is time for recreation until dinner and then bed. A boy could enroll in art or woodworking classes, read, swim, work out in the gym – or else take up some special study - something for the future.
            Young Tommie remains cynical. But Dr. Cohen explains Youth House is like a laboratory. “We study the boys’ problems, and they cooperate. We help every boy find the good in himself, discover his latent abilities and build on these. Eighty-two percent of our boys are allowed to go home to try again, Tommie. You’d like that? Going home to your mother?”          
            During the remainder of the story, we find out that Tommie has been punished with 200 lashes of a belt at another institute, is intelligent and has a flair for electronics. But a breakthrough looks unlikely. Tommie smashes equipment regularly and is aloof from the other boys. It all turns around only after Tommie is voted to sit on the Youth Council.
            We also learn that Tommie’s mother is to blame for all of his bad deeds. He apparently loved his mother, but had been hurt by her and felt he had been a burden. Investigations would reveal that his father had deserted them when Tommie was small, and that his mother had been “a respectable woman, but a morbid, nagging complainer, consumed with self-pity because she had to work, and never let Tommie forget how she was slaving to support him.”
            But thanks to Youth House, this story has a happy ending; a mother and child reunion.
            There is only one problem. The story, supposedly to be taken as a factual case study, was most likely pure fiction, or heavily fictionalized. Doubt arises on the basis that “Tommie’s” stay – according to this story – was said to be “months” and this not only well exceeded the average incarceration, but also exceeds the legal maximum of 45 days. Also, even if Youth House at that time had been well run, it could not possibly have been the Nirvana this story paints it as being, given the later record. What can be noted however, are the similarities between “Tommie” and Lee Oswald, and more particularly in how Tommie’s mother, and Marguerite Oswald are depicted
            Lee, like Tommie, was 13. He was described by Dr. Hartogs in his Warren Commission testimony as a “medium sized, slender, curly-haired youngster, pale-faced, while “Tommie” was small, thin and tousled-haired. Both were without fathers. “Tommie” had called a police officer a “flatfoot” – Oswald had called an attendance officer a “damned Yankee.” Both had their intelligence noted at Youth House, as was their respective aloofness from the other boys and non-compliance with regard to activities. The similarities could be described as positively spooky and prescient.
Released in May after a two-week observation period and returned to P.S. 44, Oswald’s attendance record improved, but his attitude did not. It was reported to his Parole Officer that he was refusing to do any work and spent his time flying paper planes around class. It was also reported that he had struck out at some of his class mates. 
            Social Worker, Evelyn Strickman meanwhile had described Marguerite as a “smartly dressed, gray haired woman, very self-possessed and alert while making a superficial appearance of affability.” She continued, “I felt that essentially she was defensive, rigid, selfish and very much of a snob.” Dr. Hartogs was no less damning of Marguerite when he wrote, “Lee has to be diagnosed as personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies. Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation, lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted mother.” Compare to the assessment of Tommie’s mother, “a respectable woman, but a morbid, nagging complainer, consumed with self-pity because she had to work, and never let Tommie forget how she was slaving to support him.”
“Positively spooky and prescient” hardly seems sufficient. 





Another similarity I forgot to note - Tommy is said to have a flair for electronics. Oswald would end up in electronics in the Marines, supposedly because of some perceived aptitude.

So Tommy is 13, small and thin and with tousled hair. He is intelligent, has a flair for electronics, is noted for calling a cop a "flatfoot", is aloof, but is eventually voted onto the Youth Council.

Lee is 13, medium sized, slender and curly-haired. He is intelligent, has a flair for electronics and is noted for calling a truant officer a "damn Yankee". He is voted in as class president after leaving Youth House.

Tommy's mother is a “a respectable woman, but a morbid, nagging complainer, consumed with self-pity because she had to work, and never let Tommie forget how she was slaving to support him.”

Lee's mother is said to be a “smartly dressed, gray haired woman, very self-possessed and alert while making a superficial appearance of affability.... essentially she was defensive, rigid, selfish and very much of a snob.”  and "a self-involved and conflicted mother.” 

----------------------------

There was no "Harvey" (unless you count Lee's uncle Harvey) - but there may have been a Tommy - at least as textual template.

Whatever the case, no one will ever understand Lee from how they expect the "average/normal" person to behave or react - just as they will fall down the same rabbit hole trying to force his behavior and reactions into an "intelligence" template. 

Oswald can only be understood through a deep study of his psychology taking it on face value as it is presented to us - OR - by taking the approach that he was a blank canvass for whatever template was required - the ultimate not-always witting asset. 

Whatever the case, anyone who says for instance that if Oswald was on the steps during the assassination, he would have shouted it loud and long just don't get it.  They don't understand him and never will.


Last edited by greg parker on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


The 2017 ROKC Conference tickets and info
https://www.thenewdisease.space/conference
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4285
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 18 Mar 2017, 12:20 pm

Positively riveting stuff here Greg,

Whatever the case, anyone who says for instance that if Oswald was on the steps during the assassination, he would have shouted it loud and long just don't get it.  They don't understand him and never will.


I don't know enough about Oswald to make any judgement whatsoever, but I'm sure that in his own way, what ever way that might be, he would have communicated to Fritz or whoever during those interrogations exactly where he was when the shots rang out.


It certainly does not mean he would have shouted that from the roof tops. Far from it, after all if we are right about PM being Oswald it would have been a simple "matter of fact". 


Fascinating stuff Greg. Cheers
avatar
Mick Purdy

Posts : 359
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by greg parker on Fri 31 Mar 2017, 8:07 am

Mick Purdy wrote: I'm sure that in his own way, what ever way that might be, he would have communicated to Fritz or whoever during those interrogations exactly where he was when the shots rang out.


It certainly does not mean he would have shouted that from the roof tops. Far from it, after all if we are right about PM being Oswald it would have been a simple "matter of fact". 
 The Youth House report noted above nails it.

"Laconic and taciturn, Lee answered questions, but volunteered almost nothing about himself spontaneously."

This certainly explains his performance with the media, with LNers claiming anyone would take that opportunity to say where they were. They don't get it. Lee was wired differently. He was concentrating on answering the specific questions put to him. Classic Aspie.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


The 2017 ROKC Conference tickets and info
https://www.thenewdisease.space/conference
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4285
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Fri 31 Mar 2017, 10:46 am

In any case I believe he was hoping to salvage his predicament. It was a case, IMO, of cooperating with the police and it would all be sorted. Initially. The film we have of him later in proceedings denying "emphatically" the charges against him is telling as he slowly realised what was actually happening to him and it wasn't going to go away easily. Given time, he would have shouted his alibi (and I agree with Mick, he would have told Fritz where he was already) from the rooftops. I don't think he anticipated his fate completely. The Raleigh call might have given him false assurances. That's my take.
avatar
Paul Francisco Paso

Posts : 467
Join date : 2014-08-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 12:04 am

Also, it should be noted that in any intelligence op the participants would not divulge information until they had a better understanding how things were playing out. Lee did not know he was going to be shot and thought he had time to reconnoiter.

Too bad that needed time never happened.
avatar
Terry W. Martin

Posts : 765
Join date : 2013-11-30
Age : 66
Location : Middleburg, VA, USA

View user profile http://martianpublishing.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by greg parker on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 10:12 am

Let's just say that his behaviors during and after the arrest have a peculiar counter-intuitive air about them.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


The 2017 ROKC Conference tickets and info
https://www.thenewdisease.space/conference
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4285
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Paul Francisco Paso on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 10:16 am

Terry W. Martin wrote:Also, it should be noted that in any intelligence op the participants would not divulge information until they had a better understanding how things were playing out. Lee did not know he was going to be shot and thought he had time to reconnoiter.

Too bad that needed time never happened.
That is important to consider, Terry. I remember reading somewhere that Oswald's fate was sealed once he made the alleged Raleigh call and blew his cover. A big no no. Who knows how this was going to play out. They had him at the ready though as a patsy.
avatar
Paul Francisco Paso

Posts : 467
Join date : 2014-08-10

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Mick Purdy on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 10:35 am

Terry W. Martin wrote:Also, it should be noted that in any intelligence op the participants would not divulge information until they had a better understanding how things were playing out. Lee did not know he was going to be shot and thought he had time to reconnoiter.

Too bad that needed time never happened.

I too believe this is pretty acurate Terry, in those brief glimpses of him on fim inside the DPD it really seems like he is holding everything close to his chest. He at times looks very matter of fact. He does have the look of someone IMO who is waiting for things to be sorted. Keeps denying and not giving much away , just as if to say "Hey, just waitng unti someone comes forward to set things straight. Ony that never happens and as they say the rest is history. I do agree with Paul, I think at some point in proceedings that Friday night his fate was sealed. Just my opinion of course.
avatar
Mick Purdy

Posts : 359
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by greg parker on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 10:59 am

I think Lee Farley was right - that Oswald was placed inside the building to watch Molina. If that is true, he has every reason to believe help will be forthcoming.

But what if it was a merely a pretext to get him in there? It may have slowly dawned on him that help was not going to come, and why.

That said, his fate was always sealed in my opinion from the time they had to start fabricating the case against him. His death - imo - was as much about stopping a trial as it was about stopping him talking - even if all he could spill was that he was placed in the building to spy on someone. That in itself would lead to the culprits.

I do have some doubts that he made any call to Raleigh. I think the call was more likely incoming. 

But as I posted last month, I think this needs to be put into the mix:

Comments by an Asperger's patient to a specialist in that field...

"My response to pain and temperature seems to be similar to my response to trivial or traumatic events. At low levels of stimulation the response is exaggerated, but at higher levels the senses seem to shut down and I can function better than normal in most instances. A trivial event can quite dramatically hamper my ability to function, but when faced with trauma, I can think logically and act calmly and efficiently when others would panic under the same situation."

Thus when Marina forgot to put butter on the table for dinner, he would lose it. When he is under arrest for killing a cop and the assassination of a president, he is calm and efficient.

He was wired differently and that is evident in just about every remembrance of him, as well as in the NY court and Youth House documents. 

That is not to say his perception of his predicament didn't alter over that weekend when no cavalry arrived...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


The 2017 ROKC Conference tickets and info
https://www.thenewdisease.space/conference
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4285
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by greg parker on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 7:17 am

greg parker wrote:I think Lee Farley was right - that Oswald was placed inside the building to watch Molina. If that is true, he has every reason to believe help will be forthcoming.

But what if it was a merely a pretext to get him in there? It may have slowly dawned on him that help was not going to come, and why.

That said, his fate was always sealed in my opinion from the time they had to start fabricating the case against him. His death - imo - was as much about stopping a trial as it was about stopping him talking - even if all he could spill was that he was placed in the building to spy on someone. That in itself would lead to the culprits.

I do have some doubts that he made any call to Raleigh. I think the call was more likely incoming. 

But as I posted last month, I think this needs to be put into the mix:

Comments by an Asperger's patient to a specialist in that field...

"My response to pain and temperature seems to be similar to my response to trivial or traumatic events. At low levels of stimulation the response is exaggerated, but at higher levels the senses seem to shut down and I can function better than normal in most instances. A trivial event can quite dramatically hamper my ability to function, but when faced with trauma, I can think logically and act calmly and efficiently when others would panic under the same situation."

Thus when Marina forgot to put butter on the table for dinner, he would lose it. When he is under arrest for killing a cop and the assassination of a president, he is calm and efficient.

He was wired differently and that is evident in just about every remembrance of him, as well as in the NY court and Youth House documents. 

That is not to say his perception of his predicament didn't alter over that weekend when no cavalry arrived...
Rebooted and highlighted for Lance Payette at the Ed Forum who wrote:

Hudkins emphasized that LHO was unnaturally calm and unruffled, completely unfazed by his circumstances - precisely as Baker and Truly reported LHO as being during the lunchroom encounter.  There, I believe, might be a much bigger clue than the confusion, chaos, sloppiness and after-the-fact CYA scrambling of the interrogation.  (A bigger clue to exactly what I can't say, but preternatural calm in those circumstances strikes me as impossible.)

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin


The 2017 ROKC Conference tickets and info
https://www.thenewdisease.space/conference
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4285
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Understanding Lee

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum