Truly and the 4th Floor

Sun 30 Jul 2017, 3:50 pm

From a 1964 story in the Odessa American

So... Truly and Baker were standing together outside the TSBD when Brennan ran up to them and told them that the shooter was on the FOURTH floor and gave a CLOTHING description. After this discussion with Brennan, the fairy tale kicks in whereby Truly and Baker run up the steps, into the building and onward to the infamous 2nd floor encounter.

This puts paid to Baker and Truly running straight in.

It also shows us why Baker writes about an encounter on the 3rd or 4th floor.

In testimony, Brennan at least partially confirms the news account:

Mr. BRENNAN. I knew I had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. So I ran or I walked--there is a possibility I ran, because I have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, I run. And there was one officer standing at the corner of the Texas Book Store on the street. It didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. He was standing still.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or what did you say to him?
Mr. BRENNAN. I asked him to get me someone in charge, a Secret Service man or an FBI. That it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting. And he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. I did not say on the sixth floor. Correction there. I believe I identified the window as one window from the top.
Mr. BELIN. All right.

This is what Truly said in testimony:

Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.

But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

So now there is another cop near Truly who may have been the cop that Brennan spoke to.

Trying to piece this together...

Baker either charged into the building alone while Truly and the other cop spoke to Brennan, or, more likely in my opinion, Baker and Truly did not run straight in, but spoke to Brennan first. In fact, Brennan may be the real reason for Baker going in rather than any pigeons - and his aim was to get to the fourth floor - not the top as "intuited" by Truly. Truly for his part, probably ran in with Baker to run interference.

Sun 30 Jul 2017, 6:03 pm

Welcome Barnett is a candidate for the cop who first talked to Brennan.

Mr. LIEBELER - You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J.D. Smith.

Sun 30 Jul 2017, 6:29 pm

Colin Crow wrote:Welcome Barnett is a candidate for the cop who first talked to Brennan.

Mr. LIEBELER - You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J.D. Smith.

Hmmm. Thanks Colin. Okay. In that case if the newspaper story quoted Truly accurately, Baker must have gone in solo and we are let to wonder why Truly is not mentioned by Barnett and instead, has his role taken by a sergeant.

I do struggle to understand how the story could possibly be simply misquoting, or screwing the story up so badly. It does appear that Barnett is a candidate for the other cop mentioned by Truly.

Sun 30 Jul 2017, 7:15 pm

Maybe Truly heard of the Barnett/Brennan encounted after. Didn't the three (Truly, Baker & Brennan) travel to Washington to testify on the same plane? It could be the reporter mixed the details.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 7:58 am

Colin Crow wrote:Maybe Truly heard of the Barnett/Brennan encounted after. Didn't the three (Truly, Baker & Brennan) travel to Washington to testify on the same plane? It could be the reporter mixed the details.

They did indeed travel together, Colin. So that makes what you say plausible.

Usually those questioned on the same day had some connection, but Welcome Barnnett was deposed in Dallas at 3:50 p.m., on July 23, 1964.

In Washington, we had Howard Leslie Brennan, Bonnie Ray Williams, James Jarman, Jr., Harold Norman, Roy S. Truly all on the same day in February (I think?).

We are still left with the mention of the 4th floor though. In what context would Truly mention that for the confusion to occur? Or do we have to assume the interviewer pulled it from thin air?

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 9:34 am

some months ago there was somebody, Barto ?, that showed us a newspaper from a school where this 16 year old journalist asked Truly some questions and Truly said he was waiting outside with a cop the TSBD and got a description of the shooter, before going inside, almost the same as this article is saying ?

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 10:01 am

Faroe Islander wrote:some months ago there was somebody, Barto ?, that showed us a newspaper from a school where this 16 year old journalist asked Truly some questions and Truly said he was waiting outside with a cop the TSBD and got a description of the shooter, before going inside, almost the same as this article is saying ?

That's more than possible. It does ring a bell and possibly came from the same source.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 10:18 am

Molina saw Truly go in by himself.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 10:26 am

greg parker wrote:

Faroe Islander wrote:some months ago there was somebody, Barto ?, that showed us a newspaper from a school where this 16 year old journalist asked Truly some questions and Truly said he was waiting outside with a cop the TSBD and got a description of the shooter, before going inside, almost the same as this article is saying ?

That's more than possible. It does ring a bell and possibly came from the same source.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 11:34 am

barto wrote:Molina saw Truly go in by himself.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.

=====================
Molina - Truly enters solo within 30 seconds. At some point after that, Molina goes down to "the grassy slope"

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain
by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.

So it's possible Baker raced in while Molina was on the grassy slope finding out what happened.

But then, Baker himself rules that out by suggesting he was so close behind Truly, he ran into the back of him. If he was that close behind, it would have been before Molina had a chance to leave the steps and miss him.

Mr. BELIN - You then ran into the Building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
============================
But then if we go back to Baker's first statement... he first encounters Truly because he asks where the stairs are and Truly steps forward

"I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were."

I just don't see that as compatible with the testimony. You back into a man, have to back up to get through the swinging doors and then ask your question about stairs when there are stairs visible right there (yes, they only go to the second floor, but you don't have that fact) and then the man you bumped into steps forward?

But then Truly, in his testimony, places himself behind Baker, following him in...

But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he [Baker] ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

So according to Truly, he was either right behind, or right beside Baker when Baker entered... and he has Baker asking him direct about the stairs whereas Baker claimed he directed the question to the "people going in as I entered".

I think Ed or Barto (or someone else here) recently suggested that Oswald was one of those re-entering at this time...

I'm beginning to think the "getting stuck in the swinging doors" story was added in to help support the idea of them entering together and once again, Baker is left to try and cobble two different stories into one (the bump and grind at the counter with the "Truly coming forward" version.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 5:16 pm

The quote in the article in the first post is hard to reconcile. Clearly Truly is saying that Brennan told them about the 4th floor and described the clothing.

Remember that Sawyer originally took the front elevator to the 4th floor and searched there before returning to the ground. Hard to believe these cops could be so incompetent to go to the wrong floor unless told otherwise. Did Brennan originally say the 4th?

I believe Oswald (PM) was the one who entered first and was spoken to by Baker. Truly arrived a few seconds (or more) later. Interesting that if the 4th floor was of interest they could have taken the front lift (like Sawyer et al). I believe that the reconstruction of Baker/Truly omitted this initial interaction and shortened their time to get to the second floor. This omission allows Adams and Styles to descend the stairs without encountering Baker and Truly.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 5:23 pm

Sawyer came after about 5 mins

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 6:37 pm

barto wrote:Sawyer came after about 5 mins

And after Brennan was taken to the entrance by Haywood from memory.....so why did he go to the 4th floor, other than being totally incompetent? Baker and Truly interacted with Sawyer on the 4th their way down in the east elevator.

Mon 31 Jul 2017, 7:46 pm

Good points all.

Tue 01 Aug 2017, 5:48 am

Tue 01 Aug 2017, 8:01 am

I agree with Colin that Baker did meet LHO just inside the TSBD, like JEH told the president, maybe it can be verified by running woman.

Tue 01 Aug 2017, 8:33 am

From Sawyer's testimony:

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into---well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor. And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Problem is, the elevator only went to the 4th floor and that was the floor he searched.

Tue 01 Aug 2017, 12:07 pm

greg parker wrote:

Colin Crow wrote:Welcome Barnett is a candidate for the cop who first talked to Brennan.

Mr. LIEBELER - You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J.D. Smith.

Hmmm. Thanks Colin. Okay. In that case if the newspaper story quoted Truly accurately, Baker must have gone in solo and we are let to wonder why Truly is not mentioned by Barnett and instead, has his role taken by a sergeant.

I do struggle to understand how the story could possibly be simply misquoting, or screwing the story up so badly. It does appear that Barnett is a candidate for the other cop mentioned by Truly.

~The questioning of Welcome Barnett and the answers he gave became very lawyerly at the end:

Mr. Barnett: I believe it was 2 1/2 minutes probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2 1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there.
Mr. Liebeler: So your recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?
Mr. Barnett: Three minutes at the most.
Mr. Liebeler: Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else?
Mr. Barnett: Sergeant Howard.
Mr. Liebeler: You remained there at the door for how long?
Mr. Barnett: Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11 :30 to 3—close to 12 :30 to 3.
Mr. Liebeler: At which time you were relieved from duty?
Mr. Barnett: Yes, sir ; from that position I had to go back to my regular assignment at Commerce and Akard.
Mr. Liebeler: Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime?

~So why say “that area”? Why not say “Did you notice Oswald anywhere at anytime on that day”? Define “that area” please.

Mr. Barnett: No, sir.
Mr. Liebeler: Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, on
television?
Mr. Barnett: Yes, sir.
Mr. Liebeler: You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all?

~By golly, there it is again!

Mr. Barnett: None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that intersection.

~Thank you, Officer Barnett, for defining for us what “that area” means. We have now limited the entire discussion to the area of "that intersection" (perhaps Mr. Liebeler gestured to it as they reviewed the aerial photo they had in front of them). Not the steps. Not the doorway. Not anywhere other than "that intersection". Oswald wasn’t in "that area" at any time. Liebeler served it up and Barnett spiked it home.

Mr. Liebeler: Have you ever talked to any other officer in the department that remembers seeing him in the area at all?

And again, to make it look like nobody else saw Oswald either.

Mr. Barnett: No ; I haven't.
Mr. Liebeler: Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time?

~Now we change the focus of the discussion and accordingly, introduce the word “there”; a new, yet to be defined term.

Mr. Barnett: Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in the building and talked to him.

~And Officer Barnett obliges with our new definition for the new term, which is "in the building", which Mr. Liebeler subsequently makes certain to further limit to discussion of the 2nd Floor. “There” is not to be confused with “that area”. Neither places shall be where Barnett saw Oswald, nor shall either include the steps and entry, which is where he very likely did see Oswald. No lies told though. All clean on that account. Nice and tidy.

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