The Beckley Bunch

First topic message reminder :

The Lone Gunman With Rob Clark,

Episode 161 The Beckley Bunch:

https://tlgpodcast.blogspot.com/p/podcast-episodes.html?m=1

Steve Roe thinks there were no phone books in 1963
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26290-the-beckley-bunch/?do=findComment&comment=413236

I know a lot of telephone books who don't believe there were any Steve Roes back in 1963..
Coincidence..or conspiracy..?

alex wilson wrote:I know a lot of telephone books who don't believe there were any Steve Roes back in 1963..
Coincidence..or conspiracy..?

Conspiracy, but a different one.

Did you never see Roe vs Polk's?

Mocked Stevie Wonders inability to check a simple telephone book for a telephone number.
He's checked all the sources where addresses are prevalent and drew a conclusion no phone number could be obtained for Mr and Mrs Johnson...but didnt dawn on him to check the telephone company first.
Cheers, Ed

https://servimg.com/view/17602890/1300#

Steve Thomas there is the holster on DPD floor and FBI lab

Cheers, Ed

Hanging from a door knob Ed. How did that holster hang from the door knob? Who picked it up again who "discovered that? Wasn't Billie "Boy" was it?

steve roe at the 13 inch head forum wrote:Well now the story/theory gets more bizarre. Instead of just accepting the simple answer that Oswald lived at the Beckley Rooming house, now he's where?? Irving? Don't think so Mr. LeDoux. I've talked to one of the Robert's boys (next door neighbor to Ruth Paine). He was one of the Irving neighborhood kids that Oswald played with on his Irving visits.. He never saw Oswald during the weekdays, only on the weekends, tossing the football around with his brother and him. To even entertain that idea that Oswald lived in the Paine home all this time is just not credible. 

Firstly I'd like to know when Mr. Roe spoke to "one of the Roberts' boys". If it was not recently, as I suspect is the case, then what was Mr Roe doing asking about seeing Oswald on weekdays when this has never been an issue until raised here? I don't think Mr Row did ask. I think he is putting words into "the Roberts' boy's mouth and hat all that was said was the Lee would play with them on weekends.

Mrs Paine is the one who let's the cat out of the bag. She has stated in the past that Lee would play with the neighborhood kids on the weekend. In fact, she wrote to her father at one stage how he broke up a fight between them on one occasion.

But in her last talk in Nov last year, she made a point of saying he would spend his whole time watching TV. Well, he could not be watching TV AND out playing with the neighborhood kids at the same time - not unless Steve has been infected by the 13 inch head forum and is now advocating the Two Oswald Theory.

No. It is more likely that he was glued to the couch watching TV  during week evening/nights and thus never seen by the neighborhood kids -- until day time on weekends...

As for Ruth not being involved in helping him look for places... perhaps Steve can explain this?
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t283-the-washing-machine-conspiracy

We also know that Lee sought the help of his Aunt and one of his mother's friends in looking for a place a and for a job. He was driven around looking for places to live. That's called a precedent. Established habit.
How could a kind-hearted charity Quaker lady say "no"?

The larger point here is Mr. Roe's MO - typical of the secretive FB group he is a member of.

He is reliant solely on witnesses - including unnamed witnesses whose exact words we do not know, let alone the exact questions asked. 

He will not respond to any of the evidence put forth by Ed. He has made it clear to Bart that he will respond how he sees fit. How he sees fit is as above. Ignore the evidence presented and concentrate on lifting the status of witnesses he likes to that of infallible saints - while simultaneously throwing the usual mud about how many liars we think there are in all of this and etc.

It is all very old and tired. If he had an ounce honesty and integrity, he would break the Jim Hess mould and actually try and address some of he following:

How did Roberts never see he holster hanging on he door knowb?

How did Roberts never see the stacks of Commie literature allegedly found?

Why did they think Oswald read Westerns (hint: it was Floyd deGraffenreid who dressed liked a cowboy and read westerns - both of which are confirmed via his facebook page)

Why are all the later interviews of other residents talking about a small nervous guy, when miraculously, grand-daughter Pat Hall recalls Lee playing with her brothers and... once breaking up a fight between her brothers. Doesn't sound like a "small nervous guy" to me... in fact, what it sounds like is the same story that Ruth Paine told. Methinks Pat Hall "borrowed" the story to boost her own credibility as a witness. In all other cases, former residences seem to be confusing Herbert Lee and Floyd Degraffenreid in their memories and then labeling that confused memory as "Mr Lee" which then gets fed into the false legend of "Mr Lee" being Oswald.

How did Oswald get his clothes cleaned? How did he carry clothes between Irving, the TSBD and Oak Cliff? Who knows? The official investigation checked out Oak Cliff laundromats and drew a blank. None recalled Oswald as a customer. 

Same can be said of local cafes and eateries that other residents used because, according to Hugh Slough, you had to eat out.

The official story can't have Oswald eating out because as above, no one in those eateries recalled him. Worse still, it blows a whole in his budget... so then we get the ludicrous situation where even though Slough said they all had to eat out... the official story ignores that and has Oswald with fridge privileges and subsisting on sandwiches made in his room, all against the rooming house policy that everyone else had to follow.

Get some balls Mr Roe and address some of the above.

Perhaps Mr Roe, taking a leaf out of Mr Doyle' book, conducts unrecorded phone interviews and then says "trust me fellas".
Is it possible that the "Robert' boy" is a 350lb woman with gray hair?

Ed has mentioned this before now, but just to reiterate the point:

Mr. Edward Shields HSCA testimony. 

SHIELDS: I think Charles Givens hollered out there and asked Frazier where was his rider and he told him: "I dropped him off at the building." Yeah, that was it...Well, I was down on the floor when they hollered out and said and the answer he gave them, I don't know, I think he said: "I dropped him off at the building." Now, whoever it was hollering asked him, I don't know.


DAY: This is the morning of the assassination?


SHIELDS: Mm-hmm.


DAY: Somebody hollered out the window and say: "Where is your rider?" And to your recollection, Frazier says, "I dropped him off at the building."


SHIELDS: Yes.


DAY: Alright. The day of the assassination, did you see Oswald come to work with Frazier?


SHIELDS: No, I didn’t.


Edward Shields a disinterested party states in his HSCA testimony that Charles Givens hollered to Buell Wesley Frazier on a Friday morning "Where is your rider?"
Let that sink in for a moment.


On a Friday morning Givens asked where was Frazier's rider. Why? If Lee Oswald really had resided at Nth Beckley and did not ride with Buell Frazier on the days Oswald allegedly stayed at the Johnson Boarding house then why on earth was Givens yelling at Frazier about not having his rider on a Friday. This is highly suggestive that Oswald rode to work with Frazier each week day. Remember Frazier claimed he took Oswald to Irving on Friday evenings and would drive Lee to work on Monday mornings. 

":Well now the story/theory gets more bizarre. Instead of just accepting the simple answer that Oswald lived at the Beckley Rooming house, now he's where?? Irving? Don't think so Mr. LeDoux. I've talked to one of the Robert's boys (next door neighbor to Ruth Paine). He was one of the Irving neighborhood kids that Oswald played with on his Irving visits.. He never saw Oswald during the weekdays, only on the weekends, tossing the football around with his brother and him. To even entertain that idea that Oswald lived in the Paine home all this time is just not credible. "

All of a few weeks, then into a new apartment Ruth knew of but was to be a surprise for Marina. 
But I digress, any rental would come with a KEY.
Roe has a mental block in this area of property management, locks & keys are foreign to him.

Firstly I'd like to know when Mr. Roe spoke to "one of the Roberts' boys". If it was not recently, as I suspect is the case, then what was Mr Roe doing asking about seeing Oswald on weekdays when this has never been an issue until raised here? I don't think Mr Row did ask. I think he is putting words into "the Roberts' boy's mouth and hat all that was said was the Lee would play with them on weekends.

I agree Its too convenient a conversation to of had previously. 
Wasn't Robert's boys in school in November and would not be playing with any men in any yard during the week.
Roe wants to avoid asking questions and just wants to simply accept Beckley rather than work out the details.
Cowardly to say the least. His claim is certainly not worthy of calling me or ROKC out if that's his default standard. 


Mrs Paine is the one who let's the cat out of the bag. She has stated in the past that Lee would play with the neighborhood kids on the weekend. In fact, she wrote to her father at one stage how he broke up a fight between them on one occasion.

I wanted to save this bit from the essay for just this occasion, I think I sent Mick or Bart a version with it included. 
Yes the similarities are enormous and I could find only the story from Pat Hall going back to 2006'ish, but should search all available sources to see if she or Glady's/AC/Earlene ever said such earlier than that. If so I never found it. 

"Even though she was only a sixth-grader, Ms. Hall also remembers the tenant as a cordial man of few words, who would, however, occasionally play catch in the front yard with Ms. Hall's brothers. 


One afternoon, her brothers got into a fight with each other. A big one. Oswaldrushed outside to break it up. 


"He went down and pulled them apart," says Ms. Hall. "He sat them on the front porch and sat down between them. And he said, 'I want to tell you something: You need to love each other and always take care of each other, and you don't fight each other.'"


And then he said something that Ms. Hall and her family will never forget. With the boys at rapt attention, he said, "And don't ever do anything...that would harm another human being." 


Ms. Hall gets a chill just remembering those words. For two weeks later, Oswald would be charged with a pair of homicides: the murder of Dallas police officer J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in Oak Cliff, preceded 45 minutes earlier by the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on Elm Street."
https://www.dallasnews.com/arts-entertainment/architecture/2006/03/12/patricia-puckett-hall-remembers-lee-harvey-oswald-before-the-world-descended-on-her-grandmother-s-rooming-house/


But in her last talk in Nov last year, she made a point of saying he would spend his whole time watching TV.
Well, he could not be watching TV AND out playing with the neighborhood kids at the same time - not unless Steve has been infected by the 13 inch head forum and is now advocating the Two Oswald Theory.
He also was in his room reading westerns... or making long distance calls to Missouri or Shreveport

No. It is more likely that he was glued to the couch watching TV  during week evening/nights and thus never seen by the neighborhood kids -- until day time on weekends...

That was his schedule according to Mr and Mrs AC Johnson

As for Ruth not being involved in helping him look for places... perhaps Steve can explain this?
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t283-the-washing-machine-conspiracy


Steve can only handle one conspiracy at a time Greg, show a little compassion. Roe's trying and failing at Beckley, but he is trying, he found numbers in a book likely from Oswald's apartment searches with Ruth but hey numbers in a book don't equal residency and we know if Lee did look at the tiny room he said no thank you and went on to the next... Roe has to have Oswald at Beckley so he can use all the false attributions and proximity to the Tippit murder as his anchor....and as Roe admits thinking is hard. 
 
We also know that Lee sought the help of his Aunt and one of his mother's friends in looking for a place and for a job. He was driven around looking for places to live. That's called a precedent.
Established habit.
How could a kind-hearted charity Quaker lady say "no"?

The larger point here is Mr. Roe's MO - typical of the secretive FB group he is a member of.

1) He is reliant solely on witnesses - including unnamed witnesses whose exact words we do not know, let alone the exact questions asked and in what context. 

2) He will not respond to any of the evidence put forth by Ed.

3) He has made it clear to Bart that he will respond how he sees fit. How he sees fit is as above. Ignore the evidence presented and concentrate on lifting the status of witnesses he likes to that of infallible saints - while simultaneously throwing the usual mud about how many liars we think there are in all of this and etc.

3a) And all the while contradicting the available evidence with tepid witnesses 

It is all very old and tired. If he had an ounce honesty and integrity, he would break the Jim Hess mould and actually try and address some of he following:

How did Roberts, and Glady's never see the holster hanging on the door knob?

Was it because Earlene is blind thus can not be relied upon for any identification of anyone. Or she never saw what was never there.
If Roe needs a third option he really is just worming out of his own pile.

How did Roberts never see the stacks of Commie literature allegedly found?

Yet she saw Westerns...

Why did they think Oswald read Westerns (hint: it was Floyd deGraffenreid who dressed liked a cowboy and read westerns - both of which are confirmed via his facebook page)

Why are all the later interviews of other residents talking about a small nervous guy, when miraculously, grand-daughter Pat Hall recalls Lee playing with her brothers and... once breaking up a fight between her brothers. Doesn't sound like a "small nervous guy" to me... in fact, what it sounds like is the same story that Ruth Paine told. Methinks Pat Hall "borrowed" the story to boost her own credibility as a witness.

Why don't the brothers ever tell the story? Its always Pat's recollection.

 In all other cases, former residences seem to be confusing Herbert Lee and Floyd Degraffenreid in their memories and then labeling that confused memory as "Mr Lee" which then gets fed into the false legend of "Mr Lee" being Oswald.

How did Oswald get his clothes cleaned? How did he carry clothes between Irving, the TSBD and Oak Cliff? Who knows? The official investigation checked out Oak Cliff laundromats and drew a blank. None recalled Oswald as a customer. 

Even though they pinned a date and time when the tiny room renter went across the street to wash a load... that turned out not to be Oswald at all. So they drop that part. This too was another part I was contemplating adding to TBB but at 50 pages Rob Clark might need a two part episode!

Same can be said of local cafes and eateries that other residents used because, according to Hugh Slough, you had to eat out.

How many sandwiches are we to believe this renter ate in his room "for dinner?"
Wasn't it more likely this renter made sandwiches for his lunch as a flooring installer or auto parts store clerk

The official story can't have Oswald eating out because as above, no one in those eateries recalled him. Worse still, it blows a whole in his budget... so then we get the ludicrous situation where even though Slough said they all had to eat out... the official story ignores that and has Oswald with fridge privileges and subsisting on sandwiches made in his room, all against the rooming house policy that everyone else had to follow.

Get some balls Mr Roe and address some of the above.

Roe is welcome to address all the inconsistencies in the work presented,
Cheers.
Ed 

Last Words Of LHO~ Mae Brussels
We had no visitors at our apartment on North Beckley
I never lived on Neely Street. These people are mistaken about visiting there, because I never lived there.

The deposit.

Was there any.
If not....

What happens when you dont pay?
Do they keep your stuff??

The slip shows an unpaid entry.


The Notes by Hosty.
has
O a dot between this and next letter.
Not O.H
But O dot H
This when the top notation has "room"
Well good investigators ask.
Room was supposedly room O

Hosty note is very distinct.
The dot is completely out of place for it to be initials.



Combine the two halfs and it now reads



Hosty was still writing it out as 'where' he lives, when it changes to who.

This is because Hosty wasnt there to hear any Beckley talk between Fritz and Oswald.
Hosty was late and his notes show it.

The notes Actually start with 2515 W. 5th Irving.

I believe the note at very tippy top, 1026 N. Beckley was added after the interview. When Fritz and Hosty get a chance to converse, then Hosty includes this info he wasnt present for, at the top.

Also claims are these notes are written out after the interrogation session.

FBI is supposed to listen to the interrogation, during a break they write down everything they heard, perhaps not in order or even continuous sentences,
bits recalled are written as remembered.

Anyone want to chime in on the logistics of the note taking and what it means to these notes.

Cheers, Ed

The fact the films were not used to defeat Oswald's alibi to Fritz and Hosty show beyond any doubt Oswald was innocent, and "stepped outside to see the excitement!"

Its over.

Oswald is PM, he gave his alibi which was roundly hidden and no attempt to verify it officially was made.

The jig is up folks....
I DEMAND THE WEIGMAN AND DARNELL FILMS BE SUBPOENAED

Roe and Hosty's note are both dangerous.

Roe incorrectly gives the cops and Fbi a pass on all the abuses in reports and statements about this interrogation.

We know they lied and the notes very existence demand a case wide investigation based on the suppressed information.

Roe gives injustice a bad name, at least injustice is blind. Roe sees full well the notes substance and the problems yet buries his head and claims his version and reading are virtuous and above reproach.
Laughingly I mock Roe's inability to find keys or receipts akin to his inventing keyless entry and paperless documents in 1963.

I find all of Roe's comments to be based on past knowledge not grounded in present day facts and realities.
His is a blind eye to abuses by authorities.
The cover up accepted by the Roe'ers for 50 years.

No the Roe'ers are brilliant for accepting circumspect evidence and lack of any scholarship or interest in the searches and residences till rivals picked their canard to pieces.

You wont find that sort of rubber stamp, ignored evidence and sham investigation techniques here.
Thank you all.
Ed

Ed. Ledoux wrote:The fact the films were not used to defeat Oswald's alibi to Fritz and Hosty show beyond any doubt Oswald was innocent, and "stepped outside to see the excitement!"

Its over.

Oswald is PM, he gave his alibi which was roundly hidden and no attempt to verify it officially was made.

The jig is up folks....
I DEMAND THE WEIGMAN AND DARNELL FILMS BE SUBPOENAED

Here Here

Internal Memo from Rankin.







Credit B Kamp.

Earlene may have had some explaining to do.

Great bit, Mrs. Johnson calling from a different address...
Thanks Bart and Mick !!!
The plot thickens.

Cheers, Ed

Interview with Pat Hall. She basically seems to be using the claim that Oswald lived there to attract tourists.

Does Roe's claim that Oswald admits to or says Yeah to an address to Fritz (or from Fritz) is equal to actually living there or that is a substitute for actual evidence he did live there?
Are partially uncorroborated notes tantamount to direct physical evidence?

NO.

Next,
Ed

Yep V that's her income.

Note Tom states Oswald rides the Beckley bus daily to work.
Do we really know that.
Is Tom making an error in judgment.
How has it been established that Lee rode that bus.
Were the driver/s and or passengers interviewed?
Was the Dallas Transits records for the Beckley bus and its drivers and route tables examined and positive identifications made of Oswald as a daily rider....No.

Objection.
Not in evidence. No foundation.

Cheers, Ed

In the video Vinny posted
Pat is saying Mr. Lee and another roomer had rooms in the main house, that leaves Earlene Roberts connected room, Gladys Johnson's bedroom.,and of course Mr. Johnson's room... for the 5 main house bedrooms. That other roomer had the front room.

Pat admits she and her brothers didnt go to grandma's house on Beckley Saturdays
So if Oswald lived there, left every morning at 730 am and got home at 5pm , when was the fight between brothers Oswald supposedly broke up?
When was it Pat and kin hung out with just Mr Lee dinner time? Did Fay not collect her children at the end of the day?

Note Pat makes direct reference to Buell and Ruth's testimony about the neighborhood children liking him and playing with him.

Cheers, Ed

The call from Fay Pucket was claimed by Pat to be when the cops are in Mr Lee's room.

This call is awful late...
If you listen the days CHRONOLOGY it would seem to come after Fay closes, goes and retrieves Pat and kin from school classes and takes them home.
While possible it seems a little odd to close, run and get your children from an open school yet the most direct event she dismisses till later seems counterintuitive.
Seems the reason is she she's a man arrested but it had no bearing on her or Gladys directly, other than this arrest being across the street from Fay, so she adds it as anecdotal during a call to her mother Gladys, and Gladys says yeah, the cops are here now looking through one of my tenants room a Mr Lee.
Its Gladys telling Fay whom.

Cheers, Ed

The above bits put a dent in Roe's context
No Gladys Johnson or AC or Earlene are named.
A room Lee did accept and move into was the Bledsoe's and by golly look at the entry complete with name.
Ruths book had the Beckley number crossed out, as if Lee had told her that one didnt work out.

He thanks her for the numbers, but the one place was too small for 8 bucks and he picked the other one, so Ruth scratched it off.

How'd Ruth get these numbers is the question Roe should be asking but again I have to prove a negative.
Which Im pretty sure I just did.
Cheers,Ed

OH BTW,
Dear Roe perhaps you can explain FR 5-5591
TIA

You know its almost like Herbert Lee was giving Oswald like answers to the FBi

Moved in during Oct, moved out Nov 1st the
same day Oswald gets a PO Box with the 3610 Beckley address
Ruth has Beckley number scratched out in her phone book. This is also something people do to their phonebooks when that person moves.


The small notebook of Oswalds has the same two numbers (likely supplied by Ruth).
In this instance Lee checks on Beckley, and skips it.
Moving instead into Bledsoe's.
When he leaves he scratches her off permanently.
Nothing more.

Cheers, Ed

No inclusion of Earlene- Gladys- or AC Johnson's name means Lee Oswald did not know them by name or otherwise. He looked at a room, maybe.
He didnt rent it though. Took another. Got kicked out.
Then what?
He had all weekend to check out, call, or reserve a room somewhere.. but no. For the second time in a row he doesnt call Gladys.
No No Steve Roe.
He supposedly just shows up Monday and just happens the for rent sign is out???

And yet only a tiny room is available.
He says with a straight face.

This is farcical.
Roe will never be able to answer this simple question.
Why didnt Lee call Gladys from Ruths Saturday?
or Sunday, or Monday morning?
Why didnt Oswald call?
Roe has shown he had the number... Ruth had a working phone.

Did Mary Bledsoe testify to Oswald or Ruth calling her about rentals?
No???? Why not Stevie Wonder?

Ed