Deceptions and Errors of Fact: Frank Wisner and World War II Refugees

Frank Wisner and WWII Refugees

The first part of this comprises a standard bio of Wisner with which I have no issue, except that it used to support the concept of the alleged "Oswald Project whereby a 12 year old refugee from Eastern Europe was groomed to take over from an American born boy with the idea of eventually sending him behind the Iron Curtain to gather information. The reason for using an Eastern European was to have someone who spoke "perfect" Russian without a Western accent.

Here are the key passages used to support what follows it.

Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.”

FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover now had the authority and means by which to contact Eastern European refugees and use them to help identify communists living in the USA and alert the bureau about potential terrorist plots against America. The CIA, however, had broader and more ambitious plans. The CIA’s office of clandestine services, under Frank Wisner, was running hundreds of covert projects. Most of the government documents authorizing the use of refugee organizations to help intelligence agencies remained secret until the ’90s, when they were declassified. Some still remain secret after more than 60 years. And many of the documents have either been lost or deliberately destroyed so that the full truth will never be known.

None of that is in dispute, but there is no equivalency between infiltrating an Emigre into his native land to recruit and spy, and using an Emigre to play the role of a troubled American for the purposes of spying. The former is historical fact and makes sense as a means to an end. The latter is rabid fantasy that perhaps might work as a parody in the hands of Mel Brooks. 

Many of these Eastern European refugees were resettled in and around New York City, where they learned to speak English and continued their propaganda efforts against the Soviet Union, with help from the CIA. One of these refugees, a young boy, was given the name "HARVEY Oswald" and, along with his caretaker (a woman who was given the name "Marguerite Oswald"), may have been subjects of a CIA "security file." In January, 1953, the House on Un-American Activities in New York had a file on a "Marguerite Oswald." 

The above is the very next passage and jumps straight to claiming as a fact that one refugee was renamed Harvey Oswald" while his  mother was renamed "Marguerite Oswald" who would take take roles in Wisner's operations. 

"Marguerite Oswald"), may have been subjects of a CIA "security file." In January, 1953, the House on Un-American Activities in New York had a file on a "Marguerite Oswald." This file contained references to 1941, Nazi's, New Jersey, and was eventually discovered in a CIA office of Security file. In 1995 the Assassination Records Review Board requested this file, which obviously contained background information related to a "Marguerite Oswald," but their request was denied.

This is par for the course.

On a separate page on the site, we have a slightly different story,

In January, 1953 the House Un-American Activites Committee (HUAC) file in New York City made reference to a "Mrs. M. Oswald" in a CIA Office of Security file. This file contained references to 1941, Nazi's and New Jersey. Judge John Tunheim, of the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) wrote to Henry Hyde and requested the HUAC file on "Mrs. M Oswald," but his request was denied. 

As we can see, "Mrs M Oswald" has transformed into "Marguerite Oswald in the updated version. More blatant dishonesty. 

The fact is that "Mrs M Oswald" was a stenographer during the 1941 HUAC hearings into the Bund operations in New Jersey. But then, I guess if Marguerite Oswald (Nee Claverie) was the only "Mrs M Oswald" in the whole of the country, they have a point.  But note also that the book of the Fairy Tale is even more egregious. It claims that Tunheim not only wrote to Henry Hyde to Obtain a file on Marguerite, but also Lee. The fact is, he may well have dome this. Such files may well have existed. But even if they did, they had nothing to "Mrs M Oswald" a HUAC stenographer in 1941. 

We then launch into the Mrs Jack Tippit phone call

If HARVEY Oswald's father and uncle were from Hungary, it is likely that HARVEY Oswald's native language was Hungarian and/or Russian (after the Soviet Union annexed Eastern Block countries, those countries were required to teach the Russian language in all schools). This would explain HARVEY Oswald's proficiency in the Russian language, his ability to pass a Russian language exam at age 19, and his familiarity with communism.

In the early 1950's J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI were fanatic in their efforts to identify and prosecute communists. The FBI was so successful in infiltrating communist and subversive organizations that they often had more undercover FBI agents and informants posing as "members" than there were actual members. In addition, many legitimate members of these organizations became paid government informants. The woman who telephoned Mrs. Tippit may have thought Oswald's father and uncle were communists, but it is far more likely they were working as paid undercover informants for the US government, either for the FBI or CIA.

The unidentified foreign woman said she had two names to give to Mrs. Tippit and mentioned the name "Weinstock," the editor of Woman's World. She also mentioned the name "Emile Kardos" and said something about a "brother-in-law" before ending the conversation. The unidentified woman with a foreign accent could have said Workers World, instead of Woman's World. Workers World was the newspaper of the Workers World Party, which separated from the Socialist Workers Party in 1957.

In the early 1950's Louis Weinstock was head of the Communist Party in New York City, and one of 25 people arrested and indicted by Robert Kennedy for failing to register as a Communist. Of the 25 people arrested, Weinstock was the only one allowed out on bail, which suggests that he may have been working for the US government. The name "Weinstock" may be familiar to JFK researchers. In the early 1960's Louis Weinstock was General Manager of the Worker, a publication that HARVEY Oswald wrote to in late 1962 requesting literature and pamphlets.

The identity of the foreign woman who telephoned Mrs. Tippit remains unknown, but her statements about Oswald's eastern European heritage and the neighborhood in which he lived seem more and more plausible as we study and learn about the life and background of "Lee HARVEY Oswald," the man accused of assassinating President Kennedy in 1963.

The identity of the alleged father and uncle of Lee were identified in this post ten years ago (that is, ten years before the Crack Squad finally worked it out). The two were not related to each other, let alone to Lee Oswald. The Crack Squad, in finally finding out about Emil Kardos all by dere widdle selves did actually do the right thing and tried to nail a 12 year old Refugee boy to the family masthead. They failed miserably and this section should be taken down from the site as a result.

Why young LEE Oswald, a US citizen born in New Orleans, LA in 1939, was chosen to share his identity with HARVEY Oswald is unknown. In the author's opinion, the secret/covert plan for two young boys to share the same identity began either when Marguerite Oswald was working for the Navy in WW II, or during her relationship/marriage to Edwin Ekdahl, or perhaps both. This was the beginning of the CIA's "Oswald project," code named RX-ZIM. This project was created for the purpose of merging the identities of young foreign speaking people (from Eastern block countries) with American youths of similar age. The foreign speaking youths would learn English while living in the USA and, when young adults, act as interpreters and translators of their native language. If recruited and trained by the military or a US intelligence agency, these young adults could then return to their home countries and spy on behalf of the United States government.

Speculation based on speculation. The only thing correct is that emigres were sent back to their homeland to spy. They were specifically not trained to act like American high school dropouts who spoke perfect Russian!

The CIA has retained the services of professors and academics at schools throughout the USA for many years. These people act as covert "spotters," and their role is to identify, assess, and casually question their students for the purpose of recommending those young people who might prove useful to the CIA in the future. For reasons that may never be known LEE Oswald was chosen and likely sent to New York City in the fall of 1952 to begin the process of sharing his identity with a Russian speaking boy from Eastern Europe (given the name "HARVEY Oswald"). Seven years later this young man (now age 18), who read, wrote, and spoke near perfect Russian, as well as English, would assume the identity of LEE Harvey Oswald and "defect" to the Soviet Union.

It is amazing how Mr Armstrong takes part A and tries to shove it unceremoniously up the rear end of Part MFH35.

Part A here is that the CIA did indeed use university professors as spotters on campus.

But what has that got to do with Part MFH35 - a 12 year old Lee Oswald?  The answer is "nothing". 

Such poor attempts at drawing on known facts to support unrelated speculation is rampant throughout his work.

The H and L cultsters habitually indulge in the worst sort of revisionism. Twisting and manipulating facts as they go 
This might be one of the very worst examples.
The Emigre operations they refer to had absolutely fuck all to do with phantasmal Hungarian pre teens 
Wisner specifically recruited  ex Soviet nationals, dispossessed persons but mainly amongst the cadre of ex collaborationists he found in the huge sprawling POW compounds 
Baltic and Ukrainian nationalists. Ex SS personnel. Croatian Fascists, Albanian monarchists.
The Forest Brothers who fought bitter guerilla campaigns against both the Nazis and the Soviets 
The Polish/ Ukrainian war, an absolutely merciless conflict  is one of the darkest, least we'll known episodes of WW2.
These guys were desperate 
At Yalta the Western Allies had agreed to send ALL ex Soviet nationals ( slave labourers, POWs, collaborators) back to the USSR . Controversially the remit was later expanded to include personnel from what would soon become the satellite states 
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc 
Thus Polish and Czech soldiers and airmen who'd fought side by side with the Allies( the Battle of Britain, North African desert Campaign, Battle of Crete, Invasion of. Sicily , right up to D Day) were to be repatriated.
The story is a long, complicated and ultimately tragic one 
If you want I could start another thread.
Basically Wisner used these groups ( who told their American and British handlers fantastic lies about the vast stay behind networks at home. Nationalists and anti Communist partisans just waiting for the word to rise up against their Soviet oppressors) to launch I'll conceived sabotage missions.
Parachuting teams into Albania, Ukraine an, Belorussia and Poland where the security services were waiting for them 
ALL of these missions ended in disaster 
The kicker being they were all thoroughly compromised.
Thanks mainly to Philby.
Head of MI6s Soviet desk 
So even if H and L emerged from this milieu, which is as likely as Oxford university creating a Sandy Larsen  Professorship of Logic and the Natural Sciences, it would have been thoroughly penetrated...as thoroughly penetrated as a giant dancing emoticon at a Fez wearers convention.
The other kicker is by the time HARVEY was sprouting false mastoidectomy scars and extra teeth the CIA KNEW all their missions had been compromised.
After Burgess and MacLean escaped to Moscow in 1951 both the CIA and MI6 pretty much knew Philby was a traitor ( what eventually happened is truly fucking shocking . A triumph of complacency and the old boys network)
So even if ( and it's a massive IF) H and L was an actual project it would have been scrubbed long before LHO set sail on the Marion Lykes.
Any fake defector programme could well have been an desperate attempt to get someone on the ground behind the Iron Curtain.
Until Penkovsky the Americans had not a single source. Nor did they have the capability to develop sources. Penkovsky was run by the British, the wife of an embassy official.
Many speculate this whole debacle contributed to Wisners eventual suicide.
As a tragic footnote Forrestal ( Secretary of the Navy (?)) who flung himself out a window was writing lines of a famous Greek poem 
Ajax's Lament 
The last word he wrote was " nightingale"
The codename of the Ukrainian operation.

"So even if H and L emerged from this milieu, which is as likely as Oxford university creating a Sandy Larsen  Professorship of Logic and the Natural Sciences, it would have been thoroughly penetrated...as thoroughly penetrated as a giant dancing emoticon at a Fez wearers convention."

OMA (Oh my Armstrong) Alex. You've administered the coup de gras. H&L RIP.

Glad to be of service, sir🤟

Instead of starting a new thread I thought I might add a list of common, immediate post WW2 conspiracy related misconceptions. I thought this would be the appropriate thread.
First of all the whole " evil Nazi genius lurking in a heavily armoured stockade, deep in the Amazon Rainforest,  surrounded by hordes of identical blue eyed gun toying minions" trope is mostly fiction.
Apart from Mengele ,who was supported by his wealthy family (they manufactured farm machinery. He fled Auschwitz around 15th January 45 with a retreating SS Unit( he had started the war as a regimental doctor, with the 5th SS Wiking division. Fighting on the Eastern Front and winning the Iron Cross for rescuing 2 comrades from a burning tank) he was briefly arrested by the Americans, however since he had refused to get his blood group tattooed under his arm he was quickly released. Staying with his family in Gunzberg until 46/47 he eventually fled to South America, via Genoa. Receiving help from Bishop Hudal in the Vatican and a Red Cross passport from a corrupt official in the name of Helmut Gregor. He settled in Buenos Aires, moving in emigre Nazi circles( Rudel, Kurt Tank, Wolff and occasionally Eichmann) and protected by the quasi Fascist Peron government. Initially he prospered, working for Mercedes and even owning his own small pharmaceutical company. He lived openly, even registering under his own name at the West German consulate. He visited Germany at least once to visit his only son and at his fathers request he married his brothers widow, to keep the company shares in the family.
Waltruda however couldn't settle in South America and quickly returned to Germany. 
After Eichmann's kidnapping things changed. The Mossad team nearly captured him too. Staking out a hotel he frequented and just missing him.
He left Buenos Aires moving first to Paraguay then finally Brazil.
Living in a small isolated farm in a rural district.
He had a heart attack whilst swimming in the ocean, holidaying with a German couple and a local woman( I'm writing this from memory and I can't fucking recall their names!!)) Eichmann( who also escaped thanks to the intervention of the good Bishop Hudal, but who lived in virtual poverty with his family in a one room shack on Garibaldi St, in the less salubrious part of Buenos Aires) Kurt Tank ( aeronautical engineer and inventor of the Me110 jet fighter) Hans Ulrich Rudel( the most decorated German combatant of the war. Stuka dive bomber ace, responsible for destroying over 1000 Soviet tanks, hence his nickname " Der Adler Der Ostfront" the eagle of the Eastern Front, countless other vehicles and the Soviet battleship Marat. He continued flying after loosing a leg in an accident and was the only German serviceman to be awarded the Knights Cross with Golden Oak leaves, Swords and diamonds. He returned to Germany from Argentina in the 50s and became involved with far right politics. ) Klaus Barbie( Gestapo chief of Lyon, known as the Butcher for his taste for personally torturing victims. Worked for and was protected by the American CIC before leaving for South America. Lived in Bolivia, Ecuador but most notoriously Paraguay where he advised the secret police. Eventually extradited to France in the early 80s) Karl Wolff( Himmler's personal adjutant and HSSPF of Italy. Negotiated with Dulles to end the war in Italy)
And other pro Nazi allies including most infamously Ante Pavelic, head of state for independent pro Nazi Croatia and Latvian pre war air ace
ace Herbert Cukurs who was a key perpetrator of the holocaust in Latvia, no more than 180-200 high to medium ranking Nazi figures settled in South America.
The myth of the Fourth Reich in exile in the steamy Amazonian rainforests, waiting for Der Tag, of Hitler residing in comfotable anonymous exile in Bariloche, Chile with Eva, his daughter and his faithful Fegelien and of course the shadowy Bormann, flitting from country to country, pulling the strings and controlling the vast fortune  he had smuggled out via U Boat, as elusive and enigmatic in his after life as his was in his life, is all just the product of over active imaginations.
Lurid tabloid fodder mixed with trashy boilerplate fiction and classic conspiracism.
Only someone with their head wrapped in tin foil could dream up a conspiracy masterminded by dead men.
The whole Hitler lives!! U boats in Antarctica was in many ways a precursor of holocaust denial.
Both fed on the dark undercurrents that surged through the murky underworld of the Cold War West. A fevered anti communism  and a twisted nostalgia for the Old Europe.
A key figure in the whole Nazi UFOs in Antarctica fantasy was none other than Ernst Zundel 
The godfather of modern holocaust denial and a man none other than Don Jeffries has written warmly about.
Good old independent minded Donnie called the author of " The Hitler we loved and why" and the publisher of " the myth of the 6 million"...well I can't remember the exact quote but it was something like " respected figure"

Anyway the first myth I wanted to explore is the myth of the mass Nazi exodus to South and Central America.
The thing about the deniers and the revisionists is their lies and distortions often obscures a truth that is equally, if not more shocking.
There was no mass exodus simply because there didn't need to be.
After the Nuremberg trials and with the onset of the Cold War and the growing realisation, in both East and West , that they would need their respective Germany's as allies the will to prosecute war criminals quickly dissapated.
Realpolitik that no doubt inspired Kissinger as much as it would have repelled his erstwhile inspiration Metternich.
The Malmedy massacre and trial and how  it was eventually dealt with is a chilling example of the new mindset of closing both eyes to the past for the sake of the future.
Nearly 100 American POWs, captured during the Battle of the Bulge, second echelon supply ( or communication) troops, were machine gunned in cold blood and left in a field.
The perpetrators were Panzer grenadiers of the dreaded Das Reich division.
Commanded by Standartenfuhrer Joachim ( Jochen) Pieper. Knights Cross winner, ex adjutant of Himmler( with whom he had an almost father- son relationship. Himmler, who wrote him long letters always addressed him as My Dear Jochen) Piepers aura of dark glamour, hes something of an idol for the Nazi fan boys and SS groupies, what say you Brian? Donnie?, belies the fact that he was a ruthless killer .He commanded the so called Blowtorch battalion on the Eastern Front, as the name suggests they were infamous for their cruelty. Burning villages( and villagers, usually in an adjacent barn) at the slightest hint of trouble.
With his company commanders and the overall commander of the 6th Panzer Army, Oberstgruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich one of Hitler's oldest cronies they were put on trial by the Americans and sentenced to death.
After the controversy reached the Senate( I'm fairly sure Everett Dirksen was one of their biggest advocates) US High Commissioner John McCloy pardoned them all.
The subsequent trials, most notably the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials in 61 either went after small fry or handed down derisory sentences 
For example Karl Hocker, adjutant of both Hoess and Baer at Auschwitz, received 8 years. On release he returned to his bank, rising to head cashier.
The key decision was taken at a meeting at Himmelrod Abbey in 49, not long after West Germany came into being.
In return for the soon to be formed West German army joining NATO, the Wehrmacht generals present( including Mansteins and RommelsR deputy Speidel, a future NATO commander) demanded that" the German soldier would be no longer defamed"
Thus the myth of the clean Wehrmacht was born.
The fantasy, a contributing factor in the rise of holocaust denial, scenario was created that would become embedded in the German psyche for a generation of more.
Only Hitler and a handful of fanatics were responsible for everything.
Everything.
Not only the Holocaust, the T4 Euthanasia programme, the Ostplan, the massacre of millions of civilians (3 million+ Polish, 20 million + Soviet)
Former high ranking Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, Kreigsmarine, Nazi party and indeed SS officials rose to high office in the new Federal Republic.
Perhaps the most sickening example is Heinz Reinfarth, SS Gruppenfuhrer, commander of the Polizei division and commander of German forces during the Warsaw Rising.
He ended up as mayor of Sylt. A holiday island on the Baltic sea coast
All the rubbish conspiracy stalwarts like Jim Marrs have peddled about fantasy Fourth Reichs have encouraged a gross misreading of history.
People thus have been struggling to learn the wrong lessons from a totally spurious counterfeit history.
There was no Fourth Reich. The old Third Reich simply melted into the Federal Republic and the " People's Republic" that replaced it.
Until the fall of the Berlin wall, maybe even a little later, the truth was swept under the carpet.
Those parts of the truth that remained were either diluted or distorted beyond recognition.
The truth Germany and indeed the world struggled to face was a simple truth. A self evident truth.
The truth that the crimes of the Nazis would have been impossible without at the very least the passive compliance of the majority of the population.
Weimar Germany in the 30s was perhaps the most modern, liberal minded forward thinking country on earth 
Within a decade trains were heading East bound for the Extermination Camps.
The tin foil hat, alternative history crowd provide a soothing almost narcotic antidote to the intrusions of reality.
It lessens our own guilt if we see ourselves are helpless.
Merely pawns of some mighty all powerful, all prevailing multi national entity.
The difference between H and L and the Warren Report is the difference between heroin and methamphetamine.
Both will fuck you up.
In a different way perhaps but the end result will be the same.
Something like the holocaust could easily happen again.
As well as keeping the myth of some all powerful Jewish cabal intact I think that's why holocaust denial is encouraged in some quarters.
What did not happen before cannot happen again.
As usual I've been far too loquacious.
I'll try to tackle the other topics in smaller posts.

Great stuff Alex. Read every word. It happened yesterday. It can happen tomorrow. Very little has really changed as goes the nature of the human race.

Thanks for posting this Alex, glued to every word. Spot on! Your way with words is outrageously good mate.

Thank you Mick and Greg for your kind words.
It's my absolute pleasure.
I'll try to post a topic a day, as there's no shortage of tin foil hat myths about the immediate post war years 
Hopefully this will complement your series of H and L debunkings.
Talking of Haggises and Bagginses there's a famous illustration in the Scottish National Galleries copy of the medieval Scotichronicon...a large plump bearded suspiciously Hobbit like haggis being chased down a haggis hole by a red faced fez wearing haggis..

Talking of Haggises and Bagginses there's a famous illustration in the Scottish National Galleries copy of the medieval Scotichronicon...a large plump bearded suspiciously Hobbit like haggis being chased down a haggis hole by a red faced fez wearing haggis..

I hear whispers of a movie deal being floated based on a controversial interpretation of this illustration. Tom Hanks has been named for the lead role. The red-faced fez wearing haggis role is still up for grabs. Is Pee-Wee Herman still around?

First of all my apologies Jake for not acknowledging your generous words 
That's what happens when you post about doppelgangers at 3am in the morning!!
I must have got my Mick HARVEY Purdys confused with my LEE Jake Sykes!
Thank you all again for your very kind words. It's an absolute pleasure to post here 
Greg makes a very important point.
In many ways the JFK assassination has been taken out of it's true context.
Removed from it's true place.in the mainstream narrative of Post War histories
Passed over in officially sanctioned histories with a shrug of the shoulders and an embarrassment cough 
As if it was some sort of anomaly.
It was an anomaly in so far as what was usually done behind closed doors was done in broad daylight.
What's STILL being done today.
The inessentials change to allow the essentials to remain changeless.
What was done with an axe 300 years ago, and a bullet 60 years ago is done with carefully calibrated words today.
Assassinating someone's character and credibility is a lot less dangerous and a lot less messy than shooting them, or blowing them up or pushing them out an open window.
But the effect is just the same.
The power of the few over the many is the power of violence 
It's greatest enabler is ignorance.
That's why I think it's as important to confront the conspiracy crowd.as it is to confront those who defend the official stories 
They both contribute to and enable this state of continuing ignorance.
Of helplessness.
Is there any real difference between Real Wife's of New Jersey and whatever fantastical nonsense is currently playing on troofer networks? Don Jeffries shows us round his fetching titanium reinforced basement in this weeks episode of Conspiracy Cribs with Doug Caddy
Of course there isn't.
If you ask the wrong questions youll get the wrong answers
The troofers help maintain the delusion 
Creating an alternative history that's easy for your Dalleks and Ken Burns to debunk. Just as McAdams made welcome guests out of Cinque and Pam Brown. Its easy to debunk some clown who thinks the illuminati were playing Mr Potato Head in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd and a poor deluded hausfrau who thinks she's Mozart's reincarnation.
Taking the assassination out of it's true context and hurling it through the pop culture memory hole to be mixed up with the Loch Ness monster and the little green Man from Roswell makes it easier to debunk. The Ralph Cinques, Brian Doyles and Don Jeffries help make the single bullet theory seem less ridiculous.
The guys who really interest me , like Nitze and Keenan, virtually created the Cold War narrative. Hoodwinking the White House ingenue Truman 
And here we are today, getting ready for a new Cold War.
The old lies reheated and made palatable by  ivankas smile 
If this forum manages to extricate the assassination from the false narrative created by and nurtured by the holocaust deniers and their tin foil hatted brethern then it will have achieved something really worthwhile.
I'll have a coffee then if it's ok with you guys start another post about the bullshit written about Valkyrie and the supposed links between Nazi's such as Skorzeny and the assassination.
After all didn't Gerry Patrick Hemming tell us the 6th floor shooter was a ratline sniper.

Thanks Alex. It is great having a real historian among us.

alex_wilson wrote:Instead of starting a new thread I thought I might add a list of common, immediate post WW2 conspiracy related misconceptions. I thought this would be the appropriate thread.

 I've been lurking here for a bit and decided to join just to say how much I truly appreciate your words, the way you use them, and your willingness to share knowledge. Thank you!
 I am not an historian or even some scholastically inclined person. Hell, back when I was gearing up for college, I turned down two scholarships for golf in Ohio at great universities to stay close to home in Florida because the school I went to had a 75% female student body. Unfortunately, that is probably the best decision I have ever made. Don't recall college anymore, but the monthly payments I make to the loan-sharks reminds that I did go at some point. Anyways, back on topic...

I fell into the rabbit hole that is the Kennedy Assassination, and all the glorious subtopics that come along with it a few years back. I joined that forum you all speak of frequently, posted a handful of times, and read through the volumes of their topics, going back years in their website. That is where I stay now when visiting their website, in the 2008-2015 range. It has turned into a bunch of chest-thumpers promoting their opinions and severely hindering from those in search of the truth. This site, the contributors to it, and your words in particular have been a breath of fresh air. Thank you!

Now, I will humbly creep back into my lurk hole and pretend I am working while I read. I am a golf pro, and for years now, I think people really believe that I am studying something about golf while I stare intently into a computer screen. There is not that much to learn about golf, and those that tell you differently are either trying to swindle you out of money or are not very good and believe that if you study the swing until your eyes bleed, you will magically become more coordinated.

It's my absolute pleasure Jeff 
And thank you very much for your very generous words 
I know exactly what you mean..." chest thumpers" is a good way of putting it.
If I hadn't found this forum I'd have lost interest in the case too, so I know exactly where you're coming from.
The whole " Ma, there's a conspiracy in my soup" mindset just leaves me cold.
The self righteous bombast of the self styled troofers even colder  
I lurked for a while before I plucked up the courage to join.
And I'd grown to respect several of the core members. You know what they say about meeting people you admire or respect? About how you end up disappointed by their ordinariness?
Well it was the exact opposite on this occasion. I found most of the core ROKCers even more funny, thought provoking and inspiring.
This is THE place to be to learn about the case . ALL the best new research is here. 
There's no pompous bellends here Jeff, trying to preach or get in your face with their preconceived pet theories.
It's a place where like minded souls congregate, orphans from the Conspiratocracy and their fake storms.
People unafraid to confront themselves, for the search for the truth begins within.
Welcome to ROKC Jeff, Stan said to me when I joined that ROKC attracts the best.
And he was right.
The research, the level of discourse and of course the humour.
I happen to think a a little bit of profanity is far less vulgar, far less offensive too than continuing to spread falsehoods about the assassination of two innocent men.
Living in Scotland I used to love golf . I played for my school team and was lucky enough to play on all the great old links courses 
I haven't played for a while but I still love the game. I still visit At Andrews occasionally, a couple of the missuses friends are at university there.
Not to play, just to soak up the unique ambience of the place.
It's seeped in history and tradition, in the best sense of the word.
Not simply wallowing in the past for itsi own sake or indulging in mindless nostalgia.
But trying to understand the lessons of the past that are still worth learning.
To the romantic the wild glamour of the place can very easily imprint itself on your soul.
Looking out of the clubhouse on a grey afternoon, just as the sun is beginning to set and the ancient shadows begin to swirl in , like some sort dreamy mist, it's easy to imagine you see the shade of Young Tom Morris stirring.
With his father Old Tom leaning on his niblick, stroking his long grey beard and chuckling.
Beautiful place.

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but I was unable to send you a private message...


I was out there in 2015 to snoop around and soak up history. The battlefield at Culloden was as heavy a feeling I care to have inside my lighthearted self. Hiking down to the cairns below the battlefield made the back of my neck tingle as well. What part of Scotland are you from? I was taking a durability test after spending all of 2014 either taking an involuntary nap, or trying to regain strength. Caught a virus visiting California and ended up doing an impromptu impersonation of Rip Van Winkle. Ended my already dying dream of miraculously finding a "killer-instinct" and taking on the likes of Tiger and Phil.

Thank you for welcoming me. I may not be able to provide much insight, but I am eager to learn. I do enjoy the humor you all employ over the "stuffy" atmosphere of self-importance seen elsewhere.

I will state for the record that the doppelganger theory, as fun as it would be if true, would have been the single most inefficient operation ever conducted in all of humanity. Why does everything have to be so intricate when it involves the Kennedy Assassination? Seemingly every employee for the CIA had someone that looked just like them in Dealey that day to throw future generations off the trail. That's some serious planning.

I think a good chunk of the things that happened in the 50's, 60's and even the 70's was like a stew made with equal parts fear, greed, money, arrogance, inflexibility, with a little bit of PTSD thrown in from those that fought in WWII. There doesn't have to be some grand puppeteer pulling a billion strings, just some good ole fashioned inflexibility from people in suits that think their way and their ideas are the best(much like those chest-thumpers mentioned earlier), and if you don't agree then the slippery slope shows its dangerous head and suddenly those against you are guilty of treason and we will all soon die from a hail of nuclear missiles if we don't act fast.

Do I believe that Oswald is the single most screwed over person in the last 100 years? Yes. Does my heart say he was trying to actually do good and then suddenly, whilst standing on the steps of the TSBD, did he realize that he was getting screwed? Yes. Do I believe that this screwing went into motion when he was a small boy and he was moved from home to home for years in order to confuse the Russians so that in 15 years he could learn a language and have a separate guy who speaks the same language fluently, but hasn't lived there since he was a toddler go to Russia using his name? No. This makes no sense. This makes less sense than a guy sneaking in a three foot long rifle to work and making his first order of business post assassination to grab a revolver at home that could have easily been concealed on him the entire time.

Anyways, I'm just rambling, sorry. I will stop now. Thanks again for the welcoming. It is too nice out now for me to not go out there and play

No problems Jeff .Im  sorry you couldn't send me a PM.
If you'd like I could try and send you one with my email address.
Please feel free to contact me anytime.
It would be a pleasure to hear from you!!
I know Culloden battlefield very well. I grew up with my grandparents and my grandmother was a Highlander.
A Mackintosh.
She grew up between Aviemore and Inverness, a place called Dulnain Bridge, not far from Grantown on Spey.
Absolutely stunning countryside.
Highlanders have long memories, to hear my great aunts talking Culloden could have been yesterday.
My grandparents was one of the Mackintoshes of Borlum, Lady Anne of Moy Hall was her ancestor.
Her husband fought for King George in Cumberland's army but her lover supposedly fought for Charlie.
The Mackintoshes certainly were at Culloden, I remember seeing their cairn,  remember the Cairns of the Dead? ItsI an eerie place alright
But her lover being cut down by the evil Butcher's cannon sounds like one of those too good to be true family myths..
The Battle barely lasted 45 minutes, Charlie's only competent commander, Lord George Murray was over ruled by the Irish clique that surrounded him.
Drunks and incompetents.
The Irish Brigade ( Catholic emigres in the pay of the French) were arguably his most professional troops.
But the battle itself was an absolute disaster.
The MacDonalds almost refused to fight as Lord George had commandeered the left flank for his own clan.
Worse still his army had no proper artillery and cavalry, also Drumossie Moor itself was wet, boggy and muddy .A disastrous choice for the Highlanders, who relied on their famous charge 
Cumberland was not a particularly talented military commander.
He had been fighting in Flanders( the French only supported the 45 rebellion to open another front against the British in the ongoing War of Austrian Succession)
In fact after Prestonpans and the triumphal entry into Edinburgh there were no British regular troops between the Jacobites and London 
I doubt the Rebellion would ever have succeeded, romance and mythologising aside Charlie and his father stood for Catholic Absolutism. Rome and the divine right of Kings...after the Glorious Revolution of 1688, when Charlie's grandfather James II and VII fled, the Catholic Stuart's were finished in Great Britain.
More Scotsmen fought for King George. The lowlanders, realists. Scotland had been dramatically transformed by the Act of Union in 1707.
Before Scotland had been a provincial backwater, clinging to the petticoats of France, who pretty much treated us like a client state.
A backdoor into England.
Within 30 years Scotland is at the very centre of the Enlightenment. Adam Smith, David Hume etc.
By the end of the 18th century we would be the powerhouse of Europe, equal partners in the enterprise of Empire.
Charlie marched into England, getting as far as Derby.
After an English agent, Dudley Bradstreet, convinced him a 15 000 man British army led by Marshal Wade blocked his route to London, his council voted, by one single vote, to turn back.
Marching home in the winter demoralised the army, by the spring of 1746 Cumberland had arrived from Flanders with a well drilled professional army.
His so called " Pacification" of the Highlands left bitter memories.
Many historians consider it an act of cultural genocide.
The old clan system was wiped out, brutal and primitive and backward looking it was their way of live.
Plaid( tartan) was banned( although the myth of individual clan tartans was a product of the misty eyed Victorian love affair with all things Highland) Gaelic too. The sons of the clan chieftains were sent to the lowlands or England for their education.
The shortbread tin romantic image of Scotland, misty glens and majestic brooding mountains, was a creation of one man.
Sir Walter Scott. When George IV visited " North Britain" in 1824 he pretty much created the myth of the Highlander.
The noble savage. Brave, taciturn and draped in gaudy tartan.
The British government was astute enough to employ the Highlanders.
Creating the famous Highland regiments..
Apologies for further diverting the thread.
If you want I can send you a PM tomorrow Jeff with my email address.

Yes, please do. Would love to chat. I'm on my off season right now. Since travel is pretty much not allowed and all other forms of idle hands activities are on hold due to both the laws of the land and the laws of my better half, I find myself in a very unique and quite boring time.

No problems Jeff 
We're just heading out to dinner now, I'll send you a PM tomorrow morning with my email address.
I'd be my pleasure to chat. Having played golf myself and knowing what a a tough game it is I can only stand in awe of your talent.
Apologies again for diverting the thread. Even a master conspiracist would struggle to dream up a conspiratorial connection between Frank Wisner, Stripling High, the fake Marguerite and Bonnie Prince Charlie!
Maybe garrison magazine should start a Fantasy Conspiracy League...
The most far fetched implausible conspiracy involving... let's say ....Margot Robbies g string, a landfill site full of Margot Kidder's empty whiskey and oxycontin bottles, the Golden Bull of Rimini, the red hot poker that was rammed up Edward IIs asshole, John Foster Dulles illuminati membership card, the white hood Dubya Bush wore when he was inducted into the Skull and Bones and Bill Clinton's favourite S and M gimp mask wins a free make over and a years free probing at Beauty@Area 51.." Just because you're Grey, you don't have to look Grey"
They're fucking experts with a scalpel, a hairdryer and a Botox injection...
You know that extravagantly hirsute twat who presents Ancient Aliens?
He's actually a 2 million year old hermaphroditic gastropod from Alpha Centaurus...
Come on ScrumDrum and Master S Gaal( aged 57 3/4s) this is your chance to shine!!
Get conspiracing

Oh Greg....always giving me homework and factually grounded history to read and study lol. Love it and can't wait to dig in.

Not sure, but I think thee may be a waiting time before you can PM -- some sort of spam safe-guard.

I think a good chunk of the things that happened in the 50's, 60's and even the 70's was like a stew made with equal parts fear, greed, money, arrogance, inflexibility, with a little bit of PTSD thrown in from those that fought in WWII. There doesn't have to be some grand puppeteer pulling a billion strings, just some good ole fashioned inflexibility from people in suits that think their way and their ideas are the best(much like those chest-thumpers mentioned earlier), and if you don't agree then the slippery slope shows its dangerous head and suddenly those against you are guilty of treason and we will all soon die from a hail of nuclear missiles if we don't act fast.

For someone who doesn't think they can contribute much, you just nailed in one paragraph what I have spent 20 years trying to annunciate.

Golf backwards is "flog". That about summarizes how I play, if the golf ball can be considered a dead horse.

BC_II wrote:Oh Greg....always giving me homework and factually grounded history to read and study lol. Love it and can't wait to dig in.

Sorry Brent. Think I'm going to put this on hold for a little while. It looks to me like they are doing a great job themselves of turning any potential converts off. I'll keep monitoring tho.

Welcome to ROKC, Jeff.

Thank you all for the warm welcome. Sorry for the delay, dealing with a water leak found in the house that has eaten a week of my life and a few thousand dollars. Got lucky with it too. Will be back to reading, and maybe even commenting soon.

Greg, a compliment coming from you, that made my day. Thank you. I truly appreciate and admire all the work you've done.

Now back to grout and ruining what is left of my intact back muscles. A leak this time of year, and literally 2 miles from the Everglades, is a bad thing. Oh, and I don't know your friend Mr. Doyle, but I am only 45 minutes from Captiva/Sanibel(One of the hurricanes I think turned them into the same thing). I can get him a care package with some nice sausages or something if y'all like.

greg_parker wrote:

BC_II wrote:Oh Greg....always giving me homework and factually grounded history to read and study lol. Love it and can't wait to dig in.

Sorry Brent. Think I'm going to put this on hold for a little while. It looks to me like they are doing a great job themselves of turning any potential converts off. I'll keep monitoring tho.

Understood man! I'll tag this as a favorite and welcome aboard (new member) Jeff.