The MC rifle 1,2,3.

I post this Gil Jesus piece here and also a link to Jerry McLeer's article on the subject as well

Jun 20, 2021 at 12:38am  
Quote

Post by Gilbert Jesus on Jun 20, 2021 at 12:38am

The 3 Carcanos
by Gil Jesus ( 2021 )

Much has been argued over the years about the rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository having belonged to the accused assassin of President John F. Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald. Most of the argument for is founded on the fact that the Depository rifle bore the serial number C2766 and a rifle with that same serial number was shipped to Oswald. It is also founded on the premise that the rifle was the only one produced with that serial number and no other rifle bore that number.

That, my friends, is not the case.

The government's own evidence proves that that is not the case. The government produced evidence that at least two 6.5 Mannlicher Carcanos, one a 36" Troop Special and the other a 40" Short Rifle had the same number. And a third ironically showed up some years later in a book authored by an author known to have supported the conclusion that Oswald was guilty.

Let's take the government's two C2766s first.

The first is the Depository rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository immediately after the shooting. It was a 40" Short Rifle bearing the serial number C2766.

Everyone can agree on that.

Then there's the 36" Troop Special that was allegedly ordered by Oswald from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago and shipped to "A.Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas. Waldman exhibit 7 is the shipping Bill of Lading that indicates that the rifle shipped was a 36" rifle bearing the serial number C2766.The red circle is the Klein's stock number for the rifle. The C20-T750 is for the 36" rifle with the scope mounted in-house.



The 40" rifle had a different stock number and (as the HSCA Hearings showed ) its scope was NOT mounted in house.


The "Oswald did it" crowd will argue that Klein's simply ran out of 36" rifles and shipped the 40" rifles in their stead. In addition, they shipped it with a stock number that indicated it was a 36" rifle with a scope mounted in-house.

To that I say, show me the evidence to prove that.

If someone has evidence to prove that Klein's shipped a 40" rifle, stock number C20-750 and bearing serial number C2766 to Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas on March 20, 1963, please present it and I'll accept it.

If anybody has ANY evidence that Klein's shipped a 40" rifle to ANYBODY who ordered a 36" rifle in the spring of 1963, I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, the evidence shows there were two 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcanos, one a 36" rifle, the other a 40" rifle with the same serial number, C2766.

But that's not all.

Warrennati apologist John Lattimer wrote in his book, Kennedy and Lincoln, on page 250, that he did some tests with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano with the serial number C2766.



That's three 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcanos with the serial number C2766.

CE 2562 is a January 1964 memo from FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover. On page 15, he is verifying the exact point I'm making: that there was more than one rifle with the same serial number.
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Jerry McLeer's 2 rifle theory



http://www.freehomepage.com/jfkresearch/c2766.html

Credit Ed Ledoux.

Sometimes I wonder if the fact that the same serial number could refer to multiple Mannlicher-Carcanos could have been the reason the rifle was picked to be the assassin's supposed weapon...

Because I have yet to learn a reason why it would make any sense as an actual assassin's weapon.

rogerhucek wrote:Sometimes I wonder if the fact that the same serial number could refer to multiple Mannlicher-Carcanos could have been the reason the rifle was picked to be the assassin's supposed weapon...

Because I have yet to learn a reason why it would make any sense as an actual assassin's weapon.

Yeah Roger,

It has never made sense to me either. Maybe you're right about the serial number - I haven't checked if this had occurred on other makes and models from other manufacturers. 

Slightly off topic - the backyard photos were either taken in late March early April '63 or alternatively could've been snapped according to the equinox around late September or early October.
From the links and articles above we can almost be certain that the rifle in the Backyard photos is the 36" model of the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. We can be reasonably certain that the rifle displayed in the archives is the 40" model.

The point being I don't think anyone must've cared enough to worry themselves about the difference in the models - one would have to assume this was an error on the part of the person or persons who planted the rifle in at the TSBD and they were oblivious to the differences or possibly couldn't purchase the 36" model. The latter would definitely jibe with the late September early October timeline.

Obviously, I dont think this is accurate any longer, but when I was a teenager and into my early 20's, i thought the rifle was used as a "fuck you" signature.

William Harvey got dispatched to Italy in 62(?). Him, Morales, and the dude that ended up in a garbage can like Oscar the Grouch(sorry, it's the 4th and I'm freedom drinking ), were cocky and arrogant enough...and drunk enough to do some shit like that, I always thought. I think differently about it now, probably because I'm not that age with the same kind of "fuck you" attitude

Watching Harvey's wife give an interview though...that lady had pure venom when it came to the Kennedy family

Jeff Reilley wrote:Obviously, I dont think this is accurate any longer, but when I was a teenager and into my early 20's, i thought the rifle was used as a "fuck you" signature.

William Harvey got dispatched to Italy in 62(?). Him, Morales, and the dude that ended up in a garbage can like Oscar the Grouch(sorry, it's the 4th and I'm freedom drinking ), were cocky and arrogant enough...and drunk enough to do some shit like that, I always thought. I think differently about it now, probably because I'm not that age with the same kind of "fuck you" attitude

That at least is believable and fitting the character of Harvey.

The mail order aspect always (to me) leads back to the Dodd Committee. Klein's would have to have been complicit in any fudging of paperwork - and that would fit with playing ball in order to keep the business from being shut down.

I was pretty impressed by Gil's work at the Ed Forum --- up until I got to this...

I

n addition, Rupp told the FBI that the rifle bearing serial number C2766 which he serviced was a 36" rifle. 
( Armstrong, Harvey & Lee, pg. 446 )

Is anyone able to check if Armstrong gives a cite for this? I can find no such advice from Rupp to the FBI at the Mary Ferrell database.

greg_parker wrote:I was pretty impressed by Gil's work at the Ed Forum --- up until I got to this...

I

n addition, Rupp told the FBI that the rifle bearing serial number C2766 which he serviced was a 36" rifle. 
( Armstrong, Harvey & Lee, pg. 446 )

Is anyone able to check if Armstrong gives a cite for this? I can find no such advice from Rupp to the FBI at the Mary Ferrell database.

I don't see a citation on the page of the book. There are references before and after to files on the CD that comes with the book but these are to the shipping order and the consignee's memo re: the shipment from Klein's, not Rupp's testimony to the FBI that is being referenced.

I think the specific passage in H & L being referred to by Gil is:

"Rupp also told the FBI agents that a model "38-E" rifle, which was listed on the customs form, was described by Crescent Firearms as a model "T-38." Rupp advised that his records showed that C2766 was a "T-38" rather than a "38-E" (Rupp, a licensed gun dealer, told the FBI agents that C2766 was a 36-inch rifle).


NOTE: Crescent's description of this rifle as "T-38" may have been to identify it as a 36-inch rifle. All models of Mannlicher Carcano rifles which used the letter "T" were 36-inch."


No citation in there, just the FBI's interview(s) with Rupp. All those underlines and italics and bold are Armstrong's in the original-- making it annoying to type up.

So I guess all MC rifles with the letter T were 36-inch because it's underlined three times?

rogerhucek wrote:

greg_parker wrote:I was pretty impressed by Gil's work at the Ed Forum --- up until I got to this...

I

n addition, Rupp told the FBI that the rifle bearing serial number C2766 which he serviced was a 36" rifle. 
( Armstrong, Harvey & Lee, pg. 446 )

Is anyone able to check if Armstrong gives a cite for this? I can find no such advice from Rupp to the FBI at the Mary Ferrell database.

I don't see a citation on the page of the book. There are references before and after to files on the CD that comes with the book but these are to the shipping order and the consignee's memo re: the shipment from Klein's, not Rupp's testimony to the FBI that is being referenced.

I think the specific passage in H & L being referred to by Gil is:

"Rupp also told the FBI agents that a model "38-E" rifle, which was listed on the customs form, was described by Crescent Firearms as a model "T-38." Rupp advised that his records showed that C2766 was a "T-38" rather than a "38-E" (Rupp, a licensed gun dealer, told the FBI agents that C2766 was a 36-inch rifle).


NOTE: Crescent's description of this rifle as "T-38" may have been to identify it as a 36-inch rifle. All models of Mannlicher Carcano rifles which used the letter "T" were 36-inch."


No citation in there, just the FBI's interview(s) with Rupp. All those underlines and italics and bold are Armstrong's in the original-- making it annoying to type up.

So I guess all MC rifles with the letter T were 36-inch because it's underlined three times?

Thanks Roger!

Rupp specifically told the FBI he had no record of individual rifles he handled.

"He advised that he keeps no record of the number of the cartons or the serial numbers of the rifles...he advised that Harborside Warehouse Terminal must keep a record at least of the carton..."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62253#relPageId=20

But here is what the FBI got from Harborside:



As for the T designation, here is what Rupp actually said:

"...The particular rifle in question is known internationally as a 38-E; however Crescent Firearms, Inc . designated this gun at T-38, therefore his records would indicate that this particular rifle was a T-38."

The particular type/brand of rifle in question I think was what was meant since he had already said he had no record of serial numbers to base mores specific comments on. He is simply saying that they were all T-38s which is the same thing as 38-Es.  

My best guess would be that 38-T stood for 1938, Terni (year and place of manufacture). Happily stand corrected on that though.

What Armstrong has written is crap -- as is the interpretation of it in Gil's work. It assumes that Rupp did handle CE2766, when the evidence is that he had no clue if he did or not.

greg_parker wrote:I was pretty impressed by Gil's work at the Ed Forum --- up until I got to this...

I

n addition, Rupp told the FBI that the rifle bearing serial number C2766 which he serviced was a 36" rifle. 
( Armstrong, Harvey & Lee, pg. 446 )

Is anyone able to check if Armstrong gives a cite for this? I can find no such advice from Rupp to the FBI at the Mary Ferrell database.

I probably should have worded it differently. He didn't exactly say C2766 was a 36" rifle. Rupp told the FBI that all of the rifles he serviced were T-38s. If he handled C2766 as the official story says, it was a T-38. All T-38s were all 36" troop specials. I was posting my interpretation of what he said instead of what he actually said. My apologies.

Gil, here is Armstrong's uncited passage:

armstrong wrote:

"Rupp also told the FBI agents that a model "38-E" rifle, which was listed on the customs form, was described by Crescent Firearms as a model "T-38." Rupp advised that his records showed that C2766 was a "T-38" rather than a "38-E" (Rupp, a licensed gun dealer, told the FBI agents that C2766 was a 36-inch rifle).


NOTE: Crescent's description of this rifle as "T-38" may have been to identify it as a 36-inch rifle. All models of Mannlicher Carcano rifles which used the letter "T" were 36-inch."

Here is how you paraphrased that uncited passage:

in addition, Rupp told the FBI that the rifle bearing serial number C2766 which he serviced was a 36" rifle. 

( Armstrong, Harvey & Lee, pg. 446 )

What Rupp actually said according to the FBI

FBI report on interview with Rupp wrote:"He advised that he keeps no record of the number of the cartons or the serial numbers of the rifles...he advised that Harborside Warehouse Terminal must keep a record at least of the carton..."

Here is what the FBI got from Harborside:



That is part of how Armstrong built his theory. Interpreting records to fit his BS. 

Gil J wrote:I probably should have worded it differently. He didn't exactly say C2766 was a 36" rifle. Rupp told the FBI that all of the rifles he serviced were T-38s. If he handled C2766 as the official story says, it was a T-38. All T-38s were all 36" troop specials. I was posting my interpretation of what he said instead of what he actually said. My apologies.

What Rupp told the FBI was that "...The particular rifle in question is known internationally as a 38-E; however Crescent Firearms, Inc . designated this gun at T-38, therefore his records would indicate that this particular rifle was a T-38."

In short, he told the FBI that the assassination rifle was known internationally as a 38-E but that Crescent called them T-38 and if he had a record of having serviced C2766, it would reflect its designation as a "T-38" and not a 38-E". 

Armstrong was pouring on more bullshit when he claimed that "T-38" may have been to identify it as a 36-inch rifle. All models of Mannlicher Carcano rifles which used the letter "T" were 36-inch."

My guess is that the T simply stood for the place of manufacture - Terni. But unlike Armstrong, I am not trying pass my guess off as a fact. 

Meanwhile all Rupp said was that C2766 - which we know was the 40 inch model - was a T-38 - which in itself is proof that not all rifles witg the T designation were the 36 inch models. 

Just my opinion, but you really should avoid citing Armstrong on anything, including where the sun sets.