Lawsuit Regarding Oswald's Property

Just came across this link. In the 1970's Marina had sued the government regarding Lee's property seized by the authorities.


https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/473/1329/225727/

$17,000 Fair market value for Lee's possessions.
Special Master was of course closer to the mark than Government experts low ball.. 10k?

Of course the government can keep the rifle as it's their rifle to begin with.
It is also valueless. (Unless the Government pushes a narrative of Lee's guilt) Then and only then does the carcano value rise exponentially. By 1966 the smear campaign against a dead and un-prosecuted Oswald was in full swing.
IT WAS HOT. Millions could be tossed at a well publicized auction in 1966 dollars for the "Kennedy Murder Weapon" ..  I'm sure the government argument would be its still only worth $19.95.

Items like the two Klein's ads "might" hold Lee's fingerprints or DNA though.
The carcano is worthless as no Oswald prints are on it and I'll bet zero dna.

I think the government lawyers are shysters in its attempts to litigate away the claim.
Saying taking of the property in '63 wasn't taking the property and claiming it wasn't taken till 1966!
Bullshit. The FBI kept possession and memo described why they were going to keep it indefinitely. Plus when in '63 did they allow possession or sale by Marina (even speculative sales in future set up in Nov 63) by an auction company, etc.
They did not. And decided they'd keep the property in 1966!!
Did the government lie about returning the items as they were only investigating a crime and this was the evidence (if no crime was committed then they might have to pay even more restitution and other damages, as this was not evidence at all)
In their game they say the government should only pay intrinsic value when the property was taken.
They claim not till '66 was it taken.
I would argue that in 1966 the items had GREATER intrinsic value than at anytime beforehand and intrinsic value and their provenance as items can not be separated from these items in 1966... its too late,, no matter what anyone might claim,  expert or moron..
perhaps in 1963 they could have settled the matter for a lesser sum as it was not clear then the future value intrinsically might be by the time the government gets around to actually taking the property, or even that could be a possibility. ESPECIALLY in light of the fact the property except direct evidence( gun, bullets, clothing, maps, IDs,  and such for commission of the crime shall be the purview of the authorities.) is typically returned.
The other personal property is beyond such normal scope of any murder (un-tried, un-convicted murder) that this too should weigh mightily on the values and compensation afforded.
By '66 the stuff was gold.  
Gold has an intrinsic value, but sell it as jewelry and that value skyrockets.
Lee was a loner and or murderer, a spy assassin and or a nobody,, ... the government wants it both ways except when they need to pay up.
Then it's as if they are judge, jury, and executive decisions makers for Lee's estate.
APPALING BEHAVIOR.
I hope the daughter's sue the feds for a billion dollars, 1963 dollars too.
This is the same government that says you can't trade two chickens for a cow as the cow is valued far greater and thus you have earned money.
NO YOU HAVE NOT.
If you trade equally then the items are intrinsically the same value to each of the traders.
How do we know the chickens don't lay golden eggs or have special bedding feathers, etc.
The government isn't taking anything into account except their belief the cow is worth more than two chickens. Yet the very transaction is proof they are equal at that time and place, and between the two parties. Need seems never a part of intrinsic value to a well paid government bureaucracy. Yet when the government suddenly NEEDS something they pay through the nose for it.
But don't use that as a valuation says government

The government cites Corr(?) and said that last tug boat on the free market isn't worth more than the very first tug boat the government buys in a spending spree.
Thusly the government creates a market value far greater than beforehand yet wants to only compensate at pre- premium level.
I find all the arguments put forth by the government and the judges agreeing to them as a slap in the face of every red blooded American.
Cost cutting should be had elsewhere if they want the property pay for it at an auction like you or I would, as long as the government can only bid its predetermined intrinsic value then they would never afford them.
The only way to set a fair market value is a fair market... all else is pure blather by economic charlatans. Wanna know what your house is REALLY worth. Sell it.
After costs and fees commissions taxes etc are deducted and you get a check, then and only then have you realized the market value.
All else is a bogus estimate when the 'takers' are the determiner.
They took and damaged property both physical and intellectual and want to keep it and publish it yet offer to pay the cost of ink and paper (used, damaged 1966 paper and ink btw)
If I were the judge I would have taken the low estimates of $40,000 and $10,000 by the defendant and accused respectively, and added them.
Thus proclaiming "Court orders payment of 50k", and then I'd bang me gavel.

Do think a falsely accused person's effects are more valuable as they are the only memorabilia available,..?
Who is selling the intrinsic valueless items anyway?
Is the 'government' retailers hawking paper and ink?
OR are we to believe Marina Oswald selling a piece of paper from Lee's effects is equal to a reem at Kinkos.
Is there a vendor selling unknown Snipers underwear and their memoirs for amounts on par with Lee's wedding ring?
I'd like to see these auction results,.
Had the ring been kept and sold at auction in Nov '63 what would be the value. I would not be able to guess. But I can in 1966 and it'd be quite pricey as far as Russian rings go (only because Marina is selling it not because it's Lee's wedding ring) 
Cheers, Ed

Yes, Ed. If ony the Johnsons and Porter Bledsoe had some foresight and waited a few years, they could have got enough peanuts to keep all the elephants in the Bronx Zoo happy for a year.

And you are spot on. The true market value of anything is what a bona fide buyer and vendor are willing to agree upon.  

Just that some things are valued on false history.

The death of Lee has allowed Marina to live the American Dream X 100. She has chewed through money like my kids go through snacks.

And every time she has chewed through one lot, she finds something to sell.

The money for movie rights. 

Donations.

-------------------
All the above went on clothes, accessories, hair styles and partying. 

So next...

Lee's possessions.

The phony wedding ring.

Appearance money.

More memorabilia.

For all of that, I don't blame her. She was being cynically used and had no way around that, so I am sure she justifies it as compensation for services rendered.

Her lawyers arrived late too it seems... We're they at their cabins in the woods also.,?
Had a counselor been involved none of this would have made it to the kangaroos court aka WC.
Does it appear her representation was for monetary reason, nothing to do with defamation, false arrest, or any defense of her husband.

Agreed, she struck gold. (If she goes with it not fight it)
As far as prospecting goes this was hitting the California rush and finding El Dorado in the same year.
Deserved or not is not my call.
It's the price you pay moving West.

Mick_Purdy wrote:For all of that, I don't blame her. She was being cynically used and had no way around that, so I am sure she justifies it as compensation for services rendered.


There's no way of knowing for certain what her involvement had been in the framing of her husband if at all but  I think we can all agree that she had been under enormous pressure from the Authorities right from the get-go to spill the beans and comply with whatever they wanted from her. The young children and the threat of deportation may have weighed heavily on her mind.


I agree she most likely saw any of the fringe benefits that would come her way as some sort of compensation for the trauma she may have suffered at their hands from those early years.

Mick,

after being told by the INS that she would not be deported and seeing all the cash being counted, she went from "Lee no kill nobdy. Lee good man." to (according to Hosty) "The government has all the facts and in her mind, due to what has been told her, she is satisfied that her husband, Lee Owald, killed President John F Kennedy."

She also apparently suggested that the government knew more than she did.

Basically the FBI was outsmarted by the Secret Service. It was the Secret Service who arranged for the INS to come in. It was the Secret Service who arranged for an ONI operative to count the cash in front of her.

By the time Hosty got there, she was virtually a Secret Service cheer-leader, and she wasnted nothing to do with the FBI. Hosty was madder than a cut snake over it. He had fully intended to use deportation as a big stick and the INS nullified it. All the years of excusing her on the basis of fear of deportation is a bit overplayed - but that is just my opinion. 



I believe her original entreaties of Lee's innocence were genuine. I believe her when she says the "government knws more than I do".  Did she honestly believe what the Secret Service was telling her about all the evidence against Lee? Who knows, but being able to stay in the US with a shit load of money to spend on all those consumer goods was a very good incentive for a poor Soviet girl; a current or former KGB asset or not. Especially since Lee was dead and nothing she could do or say could change that. 

By the time of her WC appearance, I think she definitely knew there was something very wrong about the government case and all of the things they were cajoling her to say.  I think that is why she was so erratic with her statements by then. She knew she was safe from deportation and she had worked out that the fix was in. So she just started saying whatever shit came into her head. It was her Ghandi passive resistance moment that lasted up until this day - because she continues to just say whatever shit pops into her head - her disdain very early on extending to not just the authorities but to all the "critics" of the authorities - all with their own agendas - not least being that animated turd, Lifton.

It'd be interesting to see if there are any documents regarding the INS's involvement with Marina. I haven't searched for any but I'd like to see if there are any about.

I suppose the SS if they were the ones who arranged for Marina to speak with INS and organised the cash counting by the ONI then there must be some record of that I'm assuming.

Overplayed or not, the threat of deportation would have been real at least for a short while before the mind games began - surely?  (I promise I won't call you Surely again)

It's an interesting part of a puzzle to my mind.

Mick_Purdy wrote:It'd be interesting to see if there are any documents regarding the INS's involvement with Marina. I haven't searched for any but I'd like to see if there are any about.

I suppose the SS if they were the ones who arranged for Marina to speak with INS and organised the cash counting by the ONI then there must be some record of that I'm assuming.

Overplayed or not, the threat of deportation would have been real at least for a short while before the mind games began - surely?  (I promise I won't call you Surely again)

It's an interesting part of a puzzle to my mind.

Mick, 

I think the fear of deportation was real to her, even without any threat being made. But it was not fear of deportation hat got her on the government side. It was the Secet Service getting her the assurance that it would NOT happen. That is why I say the fear angle is overplayed. It lasted only until they got her to the Inn of the Six Flags and got the immigration people in. 

It was an informal talk where the INS sought to assure her there was no legal basis for deportation. 

Here is some info about it. It incorrectly states that the FBI arranged the INS talk - but it was definitely the Secret Service as per Hosty's book.  Hosty was furious. He wanted them to threaten her so he could get her cooperation.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=206421#relPageId=16

It was a brilliant move. It got Marina being compliant and it gazumped the FBI who fully intended playing the deportation threat card, but now couldn't. It made them virtually irrelevant as far as Marina went, at least in those early days as Marina summarily dismissed them.

The games were not only with key witnsses. It was being played between agencies and the Secret Service clearly won those early rounds. 

This episode also shows which agencies played footsies with which and who they competed against.

The Secret Service and ONI had a thing going. The FBI and Army Intel seemed to have a thing going. 

The FBI and Dallas police relations had been strained because of the way Fritz operated, but Bookhout being made the FBI liaison to his office seems to have fixed that to some extend - as we see in the Fritz-Bookhout collusion in rigging the interroagtion reports. 

I think they ALL competed against the CIA.

But my focus would be mostly on the Secret Service/ONI efforts...