Oswald Role

Hi, I'm a new guy here and have been aware of the conspiracy in the JFKA since about 1972 when an older brother gave me In the Shadow of Dallas.  I've read about 20+ books in the last 30 years on a long bus commute.  I don't have anywhere near the level of knowledge of most of you, and won't be posting much, but will throw out a question:

What are the thoughts here on Oswald's role on 11/22?  I'm especially interested in the theory of some that LHO was expecting a fake assassination in order to justify going after Castro.  Since it is established that he didn't fire a shot and was likely "out front with Shelley" at the time of shooting, but also that he was clearly involved with some of Cubans who were involved, how  else can his post-assassinaton movements be explained?  This was probably discussed in a prior thread.. Any thoughts?

Magocra wrote:Hi, I'm a new guy here and have been aware of the conspiracy in the JFKA since about 1972 when an older brother gave me In the Shadow of Dallas.  I've read about 20+ books in the last 30 years on a long bus commute.  I don't have anywhere near the level of knowledge of most of you, and won't be posting much, but will throw out a question:

Thanks for joing and thanks for the question.

Here is the book referred to, for those who haven't heard of it.
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Dallas-Assassination-President-Kennedy/dp/B000GWEOUY

What are the thoughts here on Oswald's role on 11/22?  I'm especially interested in the theory of some that LHO was expecting a fake assassination in order to justify going after Castro.  Since it is established that he didn't fire a shot and was likely "out front with Shelley" at the time of shooting, but also that he was clearly involved with some of Cubans who were involved, how  else can his post-assassinaton movements be explained?  This was probably discussed in a prior thread.. Any thoughts?

The trouble with the theory is that there is no real evidence for it save the  stories of a few former soldiers-of-fortune types - who essentially thrived on tall stories and the willingness of so many to believe them.

It is something you might come up with if you were writing the story as a spy thriller.


None of that is to say it can't be true. 


I'm guessing in conjunction with this, you also support that he was at the theatre to meet a contact and that he believed he was going to be flown out of the country?  

What evidence do you believe supports the threory? Asking in case there is something I am not aware of in one of the books you have read.

Speaking only for myself (although I am reasonably sure some others here share this view), Oswald had no role except that of unwitting patsy.

His past activities, some likely on behalf of one agency or another, made him an ideal fall-guy - not someone to be part of a plot - even a fake plot. It meant thy would help frame him as a lone nut in order to put distance between them.

The Dallas Police needed nothing more than him being thrown to them as a "commie" to instigate a frame-up.

Thanks for your reply Greg. No, I have not seen anything credible on this, just speculation. Will your book on Oswald Vol. 1 and 2 have subsequent volumes? I know you don't subscribe to the Harvey and Lee theory, and look forward to seeing how you dismantle that idea. I know a lot of knowledgeable people don't believe H&L. Not having done any independent research, I read Armstrong when it came out and thought he made a compelling case. I did not go through his supporting documents and footnotes, and am open-minded given the number of credible people who don't believe it. Thanks

I'm guessing in conjunction with this, you also support that he was at the theatre to meet a contact and that he believed he was going to be flown out of the country?  

What evidence do you believe supports the threory? Asking in case there is something I am not aware of in one of the books you have read.

Eighteen-year-old Jack Davis, never questioned by the Warren Commission, remembered at 1:15 pm seeing Oswald squeeze in right next to him at the mostly deserted theater during the opening credits to the movie, then got up quickly and sat down next to a pregnant woman. Seconds later, he went out to the lobby. Butch Burroughs, a Texas Theater concessions employee for decades, told author Jim Marrs in 1987 that he sold Oswald popcorn right around 1:15 pm. According to author Lamar Waldron, found in Oswald's pocket following the Texas Theater arrest was half a box top saying, "Cox's, Fort Worth". He also had about $14 on him, plenty to cover the 75¢ admission.

TripleUnderpants wrote:

I'm guessing in conjunction with this, you also support that he was at the theatre to meet a contact and that he believed he was going to be flown out of the country?  

What evidence do you believe supports the threory? Asking in case there is something I am not aware of in one of the books you have read.

Eighteen-year-old Jack Davis, never questioned by the Warren Commission, remembered at 1:15 pm seeing Oswald squeeze in right next to him at the mostly deserted theater during the opening credits to the movie, then got up quickly and sat down next to a pregnant woman. Seconds later, he went out to the lobby. Butch Burroughs, a Texas Theater concessions employee for decades, told author Jim Marrs in 1987 that he sold Oswald popcorn right around 1:15 pm. According to author Lamar Waldron, found in Oswald's pocket following the Texas Theater arrest was half a box top saying, "Cox's, Fort Worth". He also had about $14 on him, plenty to cover the 75¢ admission.

News reports at the time claimed that cops had said that an usher had told them about Oswald moving seats. 

Other reports refer to Burroughs as an "usher", but that was just one of his roles and in any case, he never saw Oswald go in, let alone changing seats. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=54893#relPageId=46

There were no ushers (except Birroughs when not operating the concession). The theater chain was in the midddle of cutting staff.  Could they have mistaken Davis for an usher? Could he have lied and said he was an usher? 

IIRC Davis went on to become an evangelical radio preacher or some such. which in my estimation, makes him as honorable and honest as a flash rat with a gold tooth. 



The "changing seats" narrative seems designed to fit with Oswald as spy for the Soviets, as they were known to meet contacts in theatres. Part of the Rosenberg trial was dedicated to this and using box tops for identification.

I'm not buying it.

Other reports refer to Burroughs as an "usher", but that was just one of his roles and in any case, he never saw Oswald go in, let alone changing seats.

No, it was Jack Davis who reported seeing Oswald changing seats. Burroughs was out front with Bill Shelley. LOL. Strike that. Burroughs, the assistant manager,  was out front, in the lobby, taking tickets and selling concessions.

As for Burroughs seeing Oswald come in ...



At approx. 1:40pm, Burroughs heard the outer double doors open, but no one came into the lobby through the inner double doors. He reasoned that the person entering the theater used the stairs to the balcony located in the vestibule. When officers rushed in from the front, Burroughs directed them to the balcony. Of course, other officers came in from the back of the theater and these were the ones who eventually arrested Oswald.

Tippit, of course, was killed at approx. 1:15pm. Witness Domingo Benavides reported the incident using Tippit's police radio at 1:16pm. Tippit pronounced at 1:25pm.

TripleUnderpants wrote:

Other reports refer to Burroughs as an "usher", but that was just one of his roles and in any case, he never saw Oswald go in, let alone changing seats.

No, it was Jack Davis who reported seeing Oswald changing seats. Burroughs was out front with Bill Shelley. LOL. Strike that. Burroughs, the assistant manager,  was out front, in the lobby, taking tickets and selling concessions.

As for Burroughs seeing Oswald come in ...



At approx. 1:40pm, Burroughs heard the outer double doors open, but no one came into the lobby through the inner double doors. He reasoned that the person entering the theater used the stairs to the balcony located in the vestibule. When officers rushed in from the front, Burroughs directed them to the balcony. Of course, other officers came in from the back of the theater and these were the ones who eventually arrested Oswald.

Tippit, of course, was killed at approx. 1:15pm. Witness Domingo Benavides reported the incident using Tippit's police radio at 1:16pm. Tippit pronounced at 1:25pm.

That's what I'm getting at. The cops claim the info came from an usher. Did they mistake Davis for an usher, or did he claim to be an usher? The only real usher there was the many-hatted manager-in-trainng Burroughs - and as you rightly point out, he was another Sergeant Schultz. He saw nuthinggg...! 

As for the "moving around" claim itself - I just plain do not believe it for the reasons previously stated. That and the alleged fnding of a box-top in Oswald's pocket seem designed to paint a picture of Oswald looking for a Soviet contact ala the Rosenberg case.

And added to that... even if he WAS looking for a contact (whether CIA or KGB), why would he think it may be a pregnant woman? Shades of Get Smart... she wasn't really pregnant - that was just another ingemious hiding place for Agent 13! Much cozier than that damn coke machine in the TSBD!

Sorry, Not taking the piss out of you... I bought into this once, too.  Until I read about the Rosenberg trial and looked into the later career of Davis. 

The timing of the Tippit shooting is hotly disputed in some threads here, btw.  Lots of things pointing that way. Markham timing and altered times on documents among them.

Yep. The Tippit shooting may have occurred earlier. Markham was hopeless as a witness. The only reason I buy the Davis thing is there were only about 20 people in the 670 seat theater for that 1pm showing. Now we have Lemar Waldron adding his 2¢ to what Jim Marrs had been reporting for years, that Oswald was seen conspicuously (not to mention creepily) sitting right next to various patrons for a few seconds only to get up and sit next to someone else.

The torn half of a box top was also reported by Marrs. Cinemas were the favorite clandestine meeting places for CIA operatives at that time as well. Not just for the Ruskies. Gotta wonder who the dude was who was pulled out of the balcony and brought out the back door, placed into a squad car and who disappeared into the ether. Many people watching the proceedings out back thought they had witnessed Oswald's arrest. If true, it all adds up as that guy entering the theater without paying and drawing the cops to the exact spot Oswald was waiting. Makes more sense to me than Ozzy trying to save the 75¢ admission by clumsily sneaking into the building and just taking a seat. He would have had to know that this was going to draw unwanted attention to himself.

Plus, who goes on the run (after killing the President of the United States no less) with just $14 in their pocket unless they were meeting someone with money and a planned escape route?