Shoe shopping

The planned expedition according to Ruth:

Mrs. PAINE - He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.
Mr. JENNER - Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE - For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
Mr. JENNER - That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - She and I did; yes.
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For some reason, Marina avoids mention of this planned expedition and instead, testifies about a discussion with Lee the night before in which he allegedly tells her to buy what she needs for herself, Audrey and June, presumably to be taken out of the savings.

Mr. RANKIN. On the evening of November 21st, do you know how much was in the wallet?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. One detail that I remember was that he had asked me whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and 1 said no, that I hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June and for the children. This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first.
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Then we have Marguerite who testified that after visiting Lee in jail, Marina had told her about Lee asking if she had bought any shoes for June yet.

So it morphs from $10 specifically given to Marina for shoes for herself in a planned shopping expedition to a less certain plan to take money from savings to buy whatever the three girls needed, to an inquiry if Marina had purchased shoes for Junie yet.

So even a simple thing like the proposed purchase of some shoes becomes a convoluted, contradictory mess in this case.

But I believe Ruth here. She is very specific. He gave Marina $10 specifically to purchase some flats for herself and they had planned to do that on the afternoon of Friday Nov 22. Though Ruth does not state the reason why they never went, it was obviously because of the arrival of the police.

Although it is possible Irving had a shoe store, it seems to me to be unlikely that they did have one. On the other hand, there were numerous shoe stores within walking distance of the Texas Theatre, with 3 being quite close.

That only leaves the question of why Marina is changing the story. Was she trying to hide that she and Lee had agreed to meet in Oak Cliff for the shopping that afternoon?

In this scenario, it is possible that Lee phoned the house either before leaving the TSBD or when he got to Oak Cliff to let them know what had happened - and that Ruth suggests to him that he watches a movie and they will meet him at the already agreed time.  

Was the call to police advising of a suspicious character seen entering the TT made from Irving? 

Did Oswald look in the Hardy's window earlier than claimed and was he searching for shoes for Marina not knowing it was a mens shoe store?

Were Brewer and Postal coached over a period of time, delaying the taking of statements considerable?

Hardy's had possible FBI connections and Brewer got a promotion after the assassination. Postal meanwhile had multiple skeletons in the closet, making her vulnerable to manipulation. You can read about all of that here in this excellent piece by John Manning.

Oswald never grabbled any pistol before going to the theatre. He went straight to the theatre according to the interrogation report of Inspector Kelley

From Kelley's report:
In response to questions put by Captain Fritz, Oswald said that immediately after having left the building where he worked, he went by bus to the theater where he was arrested; that when he go on the bus he secured a transfer and thereafter transferred to other buses to get to his destination.



Of course, this means that the cops lied from the get-go that Oswald admitted  straight away that he had gone "home" to grab a pistol.

And yes, Kelley does go on to say that Oswald later changed his story, admitting getting off the bus, getting a cab and going "home" etc... but that was just Kelley getting on board the frame. 

The planting of the Cox box top was going to be evidence that Oswald was to meet his Soviet contact agent. 

This piece of planted evidence actually shows that someone inside the plot was extremely familiar with the Rosenberg case where a box top was allegedly used to meet contacts in theatres.

"Greenglass testified that Rosenberg asked David and Ruth Greenglass to visit him in Knickerbocker Village. When they arrived, a woman by the name of Ann Sidorovich was also there. Greenglass said that Rosenberg told him that Sidrovich would probably meet Greenglass in a movie theater in Denver to pick up information that he is able to get in Los Alamos. Because his contact might turn out to be someone else, Rosenberg cut a Jell-O box with a scissors and gave one half to Ruth Greenglass while keeping the other half. He told Greenglass that whatever person he sent to meet with him would carry the matching half of the Jell-O box as a recognition signal. The meeting point was changed from Denver to Albuquerque. Greenglass then testified as to a meeting (also in New York) arranged by Julius, with a Russian in a car. Greenglass described the lenses to the unknown Russian and answered his questions about activities in Los Alamos."

This was mostly likely in itself a phoney story aimed at incriminating the Rosenbergs. Greenglass was given a deal. Incriminate his sister, or his own wife would fry.

Lastly let's deal with the Jack Davis claim that Oswald sat next to at least two people in the theatre - one being himself. This meshes with the planted boxtop as it suggests looking for his contact. But Jack forgot the most incriminating act would be for Oswald to have flashed that boxt top at him. 

Davis went on to become a radio evangelist. Right up there in the used car salesmen category for trustworthiness. There is diddlysquat evidence he was even in the theatre except his own say-so. 

This may not be word-for-word what actually happened, but I am satisfied it is much closer to the facts than any CT book has published - let alone the fairy tales of the Warren Commission, DPD and FBI.

You want the facts? Follow the shoe trail...

RP 
Was she not supposed to go to the dentist that morning?

barto wrote:RP 
Was she not supposed to go to the dentist that morning?

Good memory, Barty.

Indeed. And that appointment was kept. She was home between 11:30am and noon. She testified that the shoe shopping was set down for the afternoon - exact time unspecified - but believed (by me at least) to coincide with whatever time Lee could get there by bus after work.

As someone at the EF astutely observed, the two films would end around the time work normally finished (or failrly close to).

Mrs. PAINE - I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.
I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know

Jonathan Cohen @ the 13 inch head forum wrote:The idea that he'd leave all the money he had in the world behind with his wife for some mundane reason doesn't ring true for me.

I have to assume that Jonathan has in mind that the money was left for shoe shopping???? Or he thinks that is what others think?

Let me help him out here. According to Ruth's testimony, Marina was specifically given $10 to buy some flats. 

What the money on the dresser was actually for:

Mr. RANKIN. Did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the Paines?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, in my room at Ruth Paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. Whenever Lee would come he would put money in there, but I never counted it.

So what was the money for? Once again, Marina is coy about knowing.

But what did Ruth say?

Mrs. PAINE - No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.


Maybe reuniting your family in a new apartment is "mundane". I'll  let others decide.

As for a comment at the EF about what guy would want to go shoe shopping with his wife and her friend? The answer is - one who was trying desperately to reunite with his wife and family.  

And no. He wasn't trying to meet any godamn contact at the theatre - though the purpose of the box top was to make it look like exactly that. A Soviet contact to boot. 

I mean, did Jack Davis ever say Oswald tried to identify himself as he sat next to him and at least one other? No. I doubt the story is even real. 

Oswald was a floater - someone at the lowest level of intel work who floated between agencies being used wittingly or unwittingly depending on the circumstances and needs of the operation.  As subch, he was very expendable.

Did he know he was being framed? Up until the BYP and the Hidell ID, I doubt that he thought that. As he himself said, he believed he was taken in only because he had lived in the Soviet Union. Up until the BYP and Hidell ID were shown to him, I think he thought he would eventually cleared and released. He was - or thought he was - working for an agency when he started at the TSBD, but that his work had nothing to do wth any assassination plot. Except that they wanted him in that building to set up the frame.

And yes - there were other plans in play if needed that day. 

An attempt was aborted at 12:10pm when police were alerted to what was going to be the diversion (no - not he ambulance call for some one fainting). 

Had DP also been aborted for any reason, Kennedy was going to be poisoned at the luncheon by someone in the Secret Service who got to pick Kennedy's steak to avoid the very act of poisoning he was committing. That steak was going to be given to one of the serving girls - specifically Joe Molina's wife - and she and Joe would become the fall guys. 

Refer to Joe's testimony. His wife's list of servers for the luncheon (it was her church group) was the ONLY item taken in the early morning raid on Molina's house. 

And the Secret Service's only act of protection of Kennedy at the luncheon? Randomly picking his steak.

Except of course, someone still had to serve it.

Looks like Marina has quite a bit of explaining to do. I wonder whether she was involved in framing Oswald and to what extent.

The fact that she was “allowed” to marry Oswald and then leave the USSR with him is itself suspicious. I would think Hosty would be as interested in Marina as Oswald. Would US intelligence agencies use Oswald knowing he had a wife who had questionable allegiances? Perhaps for counterintelligence to find out what Marina was up to and whether it would reveal any Soviet intelligence networks in the US. Wouldn’t this fall under Angleton’s purview? Could monitoring Marina been Ruth Paine’s purpose?

lanceman wrote:The fact that she was “allowed” to marry Oswald and then leave the USSR with him is itself suspicious. I would think Hosty would be as interested in Marina as Oswald. Would US intelligence agencies use Oswald knowing he had a wife who had questionable allegiances? Perhaps for counterintelligence to find out what Marina was up to and whether it would reveal any Soviet intelligence networks in the US. Wouldn’t this fall under Angleton’s purview? Could monitoring Marina been Ruth Paine’s purpose?

That last question is an interesting one and one I have not heard asked previously. It is always both or just Oswald. 

With regard to who would be interested in which party and why... that depends on who knew what to begin with.

I tentatively have Marina working for Soviet intel as some sort of swallow... then being doubled by Platovsky who was under instructiuon to recruit from among the most promiscuous. Or perhaps she allowed him to think he had doubled her - but in reality, it was through her that he was captured. I have her being trained to go to the US during her solo "vacation" in the Ukraine where they had a fake American town for training purposes - right down to ranch-style cottages - exactly the type that Ruth Paine lived in.

Once in the US, I think she took an instant liking to consumerism. She was/is a pragmatist and a survivor, not a creature of political systems.

To know that Marina was “turned”, she would have to be providing reliable information for a period of time to prove her bona fides. I suppose Ruth could help with this. A woman might be more appropriate in this instance.

Greg, your earlier post raised several questions.

1. Would Oswald need a bus transfer if he intended to go to the theater by bus? My understanding is that if he took the bus he would normally take to get to the rooming house (I know there are reasons to doubt whether he actually lived at the rooming house, but let’s leave those aside for the moment), it would have taken him to the corner of Beckley and Jefferson, a short walk to the theater. No need for a transfer. The Marsalis bus, that he supposedly did take, would have brought him to the corner of Jefferson and Marsalis which is considerably east of the theater. The shoe store was slightly east of the theater making it plausible Oswald was dropped off slightly east of both which would also allow him to walk past Hardy’s shoe store. So a transfer would be more useful. But then, it would not remain in his possession to be found by the police.

2. I thought the consensus at ROKC was that the bus transfer was planted on Oswald in part due to its pristine condition which surely would have been wrinkled during the struggle in the theater or at least folded to fit in a pocket. Is the planting of the bus transfer on Oswald being reconsidered?

3. The busses that passed through Dealey Plaza were considerably delayed due to the traffic and confusion of the assassination. How much earlier could Oswald have been in a position to walk past Hardy’s show store and arrive at the theater?

4. I thought Ian Griggs established that Oswald had bought a pair of shoes from Hardy’s by Johnny Brewer himself some weeks/months prior to the assassination. Wouldn’t Oswald know whether Hardy’s had women's/children’s shoes?

1. Would Oswald need a bus transfer if he intended to go to the theater by bus? My understanding is that if he took the bus he would normally take to get to the rooming house (I know there are reasons to doubt whether he actually lived at the rooming house, but let’s leave those aside for the moment), it would have taken him to the corner of Beckley and Jefferson, a short walk to the theater. No need for a transfer. The Marsalis bus, that he supposedly did take, would have brought him to the corner of Jefferson and Marsalis which is considerably east of the theater. The shoe store was slightly east of the theater making it plausible Oswald was dropped off slightly east of both which would also allow him to walk past Hardy’s shoe store. So a transfer would be more useful. But then, it would not remain in his possession to be found by the police.

The bus transfer found on him was a shopper's transfer. These were sponsored by particular shops to help customers get to them. The shopper would present proof of a purchse at a special desk within the store and recieve a bus ticket home. I don't know if these also doubled as "normal" transfers, but I would think not, given the scheme was sponsored by other businesses. 

If he was actually issued a "normal" transfer", then you're right. He would not still have it on him. This one was planted because they needed him on McWatters bus so Mary could ID him. 
 
Google maps shows from the TSBD to the theatre is between a 18 and 27 minute bus ride depending on the route. Oswald left no earlier than 12:45. I estimate he gets there between 1:06 and 1:20. "War is Hell" started at 1:20.

2. I thought the consensus at ROKC was that the bus transfer was planted on Oswald in part due to its pristine condition which surely would have been wrinkled during the struggle in the theater or at least folded to fit in a pocket. Is the planting of the bus transfer on Oswald being reconsidered?

Not being reconsidered by me. I don't think he had a ticket on him to start with. But if he did, it was not the McWatters' one.

3. The busses that passed through Dealey Plaza were considerably delayed due to the traffic and confusion of the assassination. How much earlier could Oswald have been in a position to walk past Hardy’s show store and arrive at the theater?

I think the delays were exaggerated to get Oswald off the bus and into a cab to get him to the Tippit scene on time. Even then, a lot of fudging was still needed.

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there.

Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there.

Mr. McWATTERS - In other words, I am going--right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than Market Street here.

In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the underpass here.

Mr. McWATTERS - That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.


This initial delay is irrelevant as it was prior to Oswald allegedly getting on and anyway was mitigated by holding cars up and only allowing buses through.

Mr. McWATTERS - Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around 12:40.

So this would be the only delay that affects the alleged passenger, and it seems to be only a couple of minutes.

4. I thought Ian Griggs established that Oswald had bought a pair of shoes from Hardy’s by Johnny Brewer himself some weeks/months prior to the assassination. Wouldn’t Oswald know whether Hardy’s had women's/children’s shoes?

Maybe what yoiu are referring to is that Brewer testified to thinking he recognised Oswald as someone who had been in the store before.

Mr. BREWER - He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked seared, and he looked funny.


That vague recollection may have become a lot more certain when Griggs interviewed him. It firms Brewers place up as an "important" witness. Human nature. I doubt Oswald had been there before. If he was everywhere people later recalled him as being, he was truly being cloned all over the place. He was a generic looking white 24 year old male.

I will add here for good measure that Postal never phoned about any Tippit OR JFK suspect. She phoned about teens sneaking up into the balcony - which is why one or two cops went up there.

Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.


According to reporter Jim Ewell, there were indeed a bunch of teens up there 

"For some reason, instead of following the police into the main part of the theater, the lower floor, I went up these stairs into the balcony. And there, there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was 'War Is Hell.'"

Ewell also says he saw a shotgun poked down into the tangle of bodies during the arrest aimed at Oswald's head.  He should have been called as a witness. I suspect I know why he wasn't. At least some of those kids snuck up there and the cops that went up to the balcony were there specifically for that reason.

That also explains why some cops came through the front and the bulk through the back (and at a different time). The ones through the front were responding to Postal's call about teens sneaking in and the ones from the back were responding to a completely different call about a JFK suspect being in there. This call may not have been taken seriously until word got out that Tippit had been shot in the area. The most logical person to have made this call was Ruth Paine. Oswald phones her to advise what happened at work and that he has arrived in Oak Cliff - or will arrive in Oak cliff early. She says they can't make it right away, can we stick to original time. Why don't you watch a movie until then?

I can talk from personal experience, showing that some things really are universal. At the same age, me and three or four mates snuck up into the balcony of a theater. But "our" Mrs Postal did not call the cops. She actually came up and gave us tickets in case someone else came around checking. 

This scenario also explains why it took until Dec 6 for Brewer and Postal to make statements for the DPD. They needed to get the story right for the cops.And Oswald was no longer an impediment to any tall stories.