RFK, Jr and "the attempt"

That might be the name of my first rock band...

But as for the real thing... I am beginning to smell a rat.

According to MSN,

In July, DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas and a bipartisan committee rejected a request from Kennedy for Secret Service protection following an unusually early request from Kennedy's campaign. Kennedy said at the time that his request "included a 67-page report...detailing unique and well-established security and safety risks aside from commonplace death threats."

Kennedy, whose father and uncle were both assassinated, raised the issue of a Secret Service detail again in his statement on Friday night, claiming he was the "first presidential candidate in history" to be denied protection upon request.

"I'm still entertaining a hope that President Biden will allow me Secret Service protection," Kennedy said.

Major presidential candidates" do receive Secret Service protection during the primaries but there are a number of requirements that candidates must meet, according to the Congressional Research Service.

Once such requirements are met, the secretary of Homeland Security consults with an advisory committee and one additional member selected by the other members of the committee -- usually from the Secret Service -- and determines if a candidate is eligible for Secret Service protection.

Notably, this is the first time Kennedy has explicitly acknowledged that Gavin de Becker and Associates, whose namesake donated $4.5 million to a pro-Kennedy Super PAC, is providing his security detail.

So let's view it all from above.

You have RFK, Jr bemoaning for a while now, his lack of Secret Service protection - like it is a given that any candidate gets it on request - except him. 

But if we accept the MSN story, that is utter bullshit.  

In the meantime, you have the hysterical Lori Spencer (and I mean that in the sense that I think she is fkn hilarious), squawking at the Base of the Thirteen Inch Headites about how the mainstream are not covering the story - in a thread with 2 or 3 fkn links to mainstream coverage of it.

You have poor ol' Jim di Eugenio compelled to defend Junior Burger... because because because... he is a Kennedy who supports the release of the documents and supports Sirhan. Both are noble gestures, but also fit neatly into more than one pre-set template for a candidate. Good causes can have any number of parents.

Now we see that the protection he did have for this event was Gavin de Becker who has donated 4.5 million to the Junior Burger campaign. 

The person accused by Lori Spencer and others (with no actual evidence in support) had ID representing him as a US Marshall.

Who has links to US Marshalls? Gavin de Becker.

From his wiki entry

In the 1980s, together with the United States Marshals Service, de Becker co-designed the MOSAIC Threat Assessment Systems,[

Who identified this guy as a fake Marshall?

The de Becker security team.

Was there any actual threat?

Apparently not.

The story really is a nothing burger about a Junior Burger.

The real story is the one behind the story. 

Was the guy a "lone nut", or a convenient dupe to make the government look bad while garnering sympathy for Junior? 

I can't prove it, but it sure looks like the latter is a distinct possibility to me. 

Meanwhile, the useful idiots are on the rampage once again, only just having been usefully idiotic for one Paul Landis.  They must be getting giddy by now, surely...

And here it is, straight from his brother...

He said his brother is an unemployed emergency medical technician who lives with their parents, does not have a car, and asked him for a ride to what the accused told him was a single-day security job.

“He told me that he was in communication with someone about a gig, like a private contract gig, a one-time deal, and he had to go that day to work it,” Raymond Aispuro said. “I don't know who he talks to or what, I just get whatever vague information he gives me.”

“I really do think this is a situation where he got wrong information or he trusted someone he shouldn’t have,” he added.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anti-vaxxer-adrian-paul-aispuro-held-on-dollar35k-bail-after-rfk-jr-rally-arrest

I'm betting our man was "recruited" for the job by someone from de Becker Security who identified him on Rumble or some other site as the perfect "patsy" for this "job".

Good analysis Greg. Makes a lot of sense. Shame on RFK Jr if he was behind this hoax.

The Kennedys cause a lot of their own problems. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful that JFK was able to resolve, via good sense or painkillers, the Cuban Missile Crisis without a nuclear exchange. But the crisis actually began when JFK himself allowed the installation of nuclear missiles in Turkey (like the Bay of Pigs, it was conceived under Eisenhower but implemented under JFK). Astonishingly, in one of the CMC recordings JFK remarked that “ … it was as though we had placed offensive missiles in Turkey”. To which one of his advisors replied, “We did.”

Both RFK and JFK were enamored with covert operations.

Over the top Kennedy worship clouds the judgement of several assassination researchers, both CT and LNT alike. The assassination was just one of several examples of the rottenness at high levels of the US and other governments that has been evident long before 1963 and is even more blatant today.

I agree that Kennedy worship is ridiculous and affects judgement. Jim Di is a good example of this in my opinion.

Vinny wrote:I agree that Kennedy worship is ridiculous and affects judgement. Jim Di is a good example of this in my opinion.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Jin Di does some good work but, yeah.

Not Jim Di specifically, but there was some discussion on the EF that Ted Kennedy’s Chappaquiddick midnight swim was due to sinister forces. 

The only difference between the leaders of democracies and authoritarian states is the type of psychopathy.

lanceman wrote:The Kennedys cause a lot of their own problems. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful that JFK was able to resolve, via good sense or painkillers, the Cuban Missile Crisis without a nuclear exchange. But the crisis actually began when JFK himself allowed the installation of nuclear missiles in Turkey (like the Bay of Pigs, it was conceived under Eisenhower but implemented under JFK). Astonishingly, in one of the CMC recordings JFK remarked that “ … it was as though we had placed offensive missiles in Turkey”. To which one of his advisors replied, “We did.”

Both RFK and JFK were enamored with covert operations.

Over the top Kennedy worship clouds the judgement of several assassination researchers, both CT and LNT alike. The assassination was just one of several examples of the rottenness at high levels of the US and other governments that has been evident long before 1963 and is even more blatant today.

Although I have seen 1961 as the year missiles were placed in Turkey, in reality, they were placed there during 1958-59.

"In 1958 and 1959, Jupiters were deployed to Italy and Turkey as a forward strike capability.4 30 missiles were deployed to Italy and 15 to Turkey. An additional 15 missiles were scheduled for deployment to Turkey, but these plans were later canceled." 
https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/jupiter/

But I too am grateful that he avoided a worldwide conflagration. 

How do you think things may have panned out under Ike or Nixon?

I had looked into this and it IS very hard to find definitive answers. I remember looking at the National Security Archives a few years back and never found a good answer.

Earlier this year, I purchased a book “The Other Missiles of October” that has a table showing the missiles being operational between February 1961 and July 1961. But I haven’t read the book yet.

https://www.amazon.com/Other-Missiles-October-Eisenhower-1957-1963/dp/0807846473/ref=sr_1_1?Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.x=0&Adv-Srch-Books-Submit.y=0&qid=1695409995&refinements=p_28%3Athe+other+missiles+of+october&s=books&sr=1-1&unfiltered=1

Kennedy was briefed by the CIA on the non-existence of the “missile gap” in August 1960. Yet he still made the claim in a debate with Nixon a month or two later.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4635207/1960-kennedy-missile-gap

In the phone calls with Eisenhower during the CMC, Eisenhower was very supportive of JFK’s actions. I don’t know what Nixon’s reaction was.

One thing is certain. NATO was always and remains a war provoking institution. One of the reasons the Jupiter missiles were placed in Italy and Turkey was to shore up NATO’s credibility.

Firstly, I agree - Ike would have probably done a good job of stopping a full on nuclear war. Not sure about Nixon. 

What I posted previously does not have it quite right.

You never specified the Jupiters. What was put in Turkey and Italy in 1958/59 were short-range nuclear-capable missiles. A deal was signed with Turkey in late-1959 to include long-range Jupiters during 1961.

Yes, it was all about NATO. I doubt JFK could have stopped such a deal without major fallout - and in any case, at the time he took office, he still believed the missile gap was real. 

It was Kennedy who is credited with inventing the term "Missile Gap". which was based on estimates from the Gaither Committee and the USAF. Those figures were hugely exaggerated. That was in 1958 and he did use this term to beat Ike over the head for being weak on defense.

But as far as I know, the briefing he had where he learned the "truth" (which was still exaggerating the figures, even if  not by nearly as much) happened in September, 1961 during a National Intelligence Estimate briefing. The Jupiter missiles were being installed around that time. 

You said Kennedy was caught on tape saying “ … it was as though we had placed offensive missiles in Turkey”. To which one of his advisors replied, “We did.” I have not been able to find the tapes to verify it, but I do think it is weird that if you have the quote right, I cannot find it repeated anywhere on the web. 

I largely agree with you about NATO, but think it may have "some" relevance in the current climate. All, or nearly all, such post WWII pacts were based on lies, coercion, veiled threats. false promises. All, or nearly all, fed the MIC. The accumulative effect over the coarse of the decades was in breaking the SU who never could keep up the arms race. The MIC in effect, held back the opportunity for the US and USSR to work together on space exploration and everything that may have come out of such a joint effort. 

Anyhow... bottom line for me. The Kennedys were not perfect. But the idolatry on one side is matched (and sometimes surpassed) by the counter-mythologizing on the other.

The counter-myths have him as a dead man walking because of various medical issues who is somehow still able to bed every female he encounters; as the cause of the Bay of Pigs and CMC; as a danger to National Security: as murderer of MM, or of having his wing man Bobby do it; as himself as weak on defense, and as someone  who both cozied up to communistic civil rights groups AND who did nothing to help them. 

The countermyths are like a dogs breakfast - all over the place, and many lack substantive evidence, or in some cases, any evidence at all, unless you count hearsay, rumor, speculation and deliberate lies.  

I'm not really interest in picking a side anti - or pro. The facts whatever they are, will do me.

Here’s where I got the quote regarding the missiles in Cuba.It references an article in the Atlantic magazine which requires a subscription. Ultimately, the best source are the tapes or transcripts. Maybe I’ll go to the library this week and check them out.

https://www.fff.org/2016/08/19/u-s-nuclear-weapons-turkey-didnt-jfk-order-removal/

When I first became aware of this conversation I wasn’t sure if:

1. JFK was not aware of the missiles because they were placed in Turkey by the national security establishment without his knowledge. This seems to be the belief of the author.

2. JFK’s memory was impaired due to the stress of the situation and perhaps the medications he was taking.

3. JFK was surprised by the timing since the missiles had been operational for 15 months and the Soviets had done nothing.

I believe 3 is the best explanation.

What I’ve also found out out was that Kennedy and his advisors long regarded the missiles as being obsolete. Yet they were reluctant to accede to Khrushchev’s demand for their removal; The Kennedys because of the domestic political ramifications for the upcoming 1962 elections as well as their own 1964 election and the international political consequences for NATO and US hegemony. The military, of course objected on the grounds of missile envy. The bottom line is that the crisis was needless.

Not only were the missiles installed to shore up NATO, NATO was also a hindrance for their withdrawal which was key to resolving the crisis. I think this is just one more historical example of the danger of “defensive” military alliances. Going back to the Delian League of ancient Greece, they not only do not prevent war, they expand wars once they do break out. They give the dominant power an instrument of control but they also encourage provocative actions by the weaker powers which drag the major power into conflict, as the Austrians did with Germany in WW1.

Kennedy should have been aware of the short-range missiles in place in Turkey when he took office . Whether he was or not, may be a different matter. He also should have been made aware that an agreement had been signed with Turkey to place long-range missiles there later in 1961. Whether or not he was may be a different matter.

I am ignoring any claimed statements about his alleged lack of knowledge until one of us hears the tapes. Until then, to me, it is rumor or targeted propaganda. Again, had he said it, I would have thought it would be quoted by several authors. That does not appear to be the case.

There is no reason he should have been against having the missiles in Turkey, short or long range, since he did not find out until September 1961 that the missile gap was bullshit. 

Based on the evidence as I have found it, Kennedy is off the hook on this and deserves all credit for the way he handled the CMC. I am sure after finding out the truth about the missile gap, he was probably quite happy to remove those long range missiles if the Soviets did the same. 

I will reevaluate should the tapes show he did say it. 

For now, let's get this thread back on track.

Vinny wrote:

This guy's instincts calling bullshit are spot on. Not sure about some of his commentary though. 

Bringing up past drug addiction and suggesting the guy may have been collecting a drug debt is way out of line in the absence of any evidence for it. 

Not sure why he and those among the Headites keep ignoring that his brother said he was called about the job. His behavior when he got there is consistent with that.

He never got inside. Being stopped by the security that was there would be a good reason to want to see the head guy, JFK, Jr to get it sorted out. He never got the chance.

I suspect his bail got lowered and federal changes were not laid for one simple reason: they believed his story, or at least were willing to investigate it.

The guys background, what transpired at the front entrance and what his brother told the media all make for a cohesive narrative that makes perfect sense. He was identified online as a useful idiot and used like one. Who by? An insider.

Yet we have the Blue Meanies putting around in their yellow submarine concocting all manner of tall, dark tales of MKUltra and Deep State plots to assassination Junior Burger. 

By the powers invested in me by Ronald McDonald and Mrs. Mills,
I declare I am just plain fed up with all this.

Progress relies on sanity.

I agree Greg. It seems to have been a setup. Thankfully nobody got injured.

Jim has started a petition about this.


https://www.kennedysandking.com/articles/action-alert-secret-service-protection-for-rfk-jr

Vinny wrote:Jim has started a petition about this.


https://www.kennedysandking.com/articles/action-alert-secret-service-protection-for-rfk-jr

Jim has been misinformed

The man did not approach rfk, jr. He never got inside the door. Nor was he brandishing any weapons. 

Take out the misinformation and loaded language and you left with a man showing up for what he thinks is a paid gig in security. This is supported by his brother's statements to the media and the fact that his charges are consistent with the story give by the  brother and the reduction in bail.

He was set up by people inside the campaign to haon publicity, sympathy, further spin the deep state narrative and tp secret service protection.

I checked Ernest R. May’s “The Kennedy Tapes”, First Paperback Edition, 1998.

From the conversation of October 16, 1962 (page 100):

JFK: That’s right. But what is the advantage of that? It’s just as if we suddenly began to put a major number of MRBMs in Turkey. Now that’d be goddamn dangerous, I would think.


Bundy: Well, we did, Mr. President.


JFK: Yeah, but that was 5 years ago.


Alexis Johnson: We did it. We did it in England. That’s when we were short. We gave England [unclear] when we were short of ICBMs.


JFK: But that was during a different period then.

What had happened was that in the post-Sputnik panic, Jupiter missiles were offered to NATO members to shore up the alliance credibility of a nuclear response until the Atlas ICBM became operational. Only Italy and Turkey took up the offer. Before this, Thor missiles were offered to the UK to kind of patch things up after the rift caused by the Suez Crisis.

JFK was on the senate foreign relations committee beginning in 1957 and surely was aware of the offer of Jupiters to NATO.

Regarding JFK’s acknowledgement that there was no missile gap, Defense Secretary McNamara admitted as such in an off the record meeting with journalists in early February 1961. It cause a stir in the press, pissing off JFK.

https://archive.nytimes.com/100days.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/missile-gaps-and-other-broken-promises/

The above account is corroborated based on JFK’s remarks during a February 8, 1961 press conference:

https://youtu.be/yLXpffYtNB0?si=jxwnfS7aMYMS2fy1&t=151

JFK deftly handles the question on McNamara’s remarks by saying that the issue was to be studied and the conclusions of that study would be released when it was completed. Though additional Corona satellite photos added additional confirmation that the US had even greater ICBM capacity than the Soviets, it was pretty clear the administration knew early on that the missile gap was BS. The announcement in late 1961 offered a decent interval to save face.

Later on in the October 16 conversation, Robert Kennedy makes a curious remark:

RFK: Let me say, of course, one other thing is whether we should also think of whether there is some other way we can get involved in this,  through Guantanamo Bay or something. Or whether there’s some ship that, you know … sink the Maine or something. 

This comment is right out of Operation Northwoods (about 9 months earlier in 1962) and accepted without comment by the others present including JFK. Makes you wonder whether Operation Northwoods was a response to RFK leaning on the Joint Chiefs to do something about Cuba or even suggested by RFK himself. Just how emphatically was Operation Northwoods rejected?

It was Adlai Stevenson who first suggested removing the Jupiter missiles from Turkey. Initially, JFK was dismissive and actually remarked “Whose side is he on”, JFK was flexible enough to later remark that it was a “reasonable” option. He was the adult in the room when it mattered.

lanceman wrote:I checked Ernest R. May’s “The Kennedy Tapes”, First Paperback Edition, 1998.

From the conversation of October 16, 1962 (page 100):

JFK: That’s right. But what is the advantage of that? It’s just as if we suddenly began to put a major number of MRBMs in Turkey. Now that’d be goddamn dangerous, I would think.


Bundy: Well, we did, Mr. President.


JFK: Yeah, but that was 5 years ago.


Alexis Johnson: We did it. We did it in England. That’s when we were short. We gave England [unclear] when we were short of ICBMs.


JFK: But that was during a different period then.

Well, that's not quite the same as you originally said.

But the crisis actually began when JFK himself allowed the installation of nuclear missiles in Turkey (like the Bay of Pigs, it was conceived under Eisenhower but implemented under JFK). Astonishingly, in one of the CMC recordings JFK remarked that “ … it was as though we had placed offensive missiles in Turkey”. To which one of his advisors replied, “We did.”

To which Kennedy apparently replied, "year, but that was  years ago."

Again, they are not talking about the Jupiters, but short and medium range missiles placed there under Ike, not Kennedy.

and

Kennedy was briefed by the CIA on the non-existence of the “missile gap” in August 1960. Yet he still made the claim in a debate with Nixon a month or two later.

That evidence-free assertion comes from Richard Reeves who once admitted that he is a biased writer and that he writes for the purposes of "sharing" his bias. 

Regarding JFK’s acknowledgement that there was no missile gap, Defense Secretary McNamara admitted as such in an off the record meeting with journalists in early February 1961. It cause a stir in the press, pissing off JFK.

https://archive.nytimes.com/100days.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/missile-gaps-and-other-broken-promises/

The alleged meeting was not "off the record". It was "not for attribution". I find it very difficult to believe, as this Reeves hit piece suggests, that the "best and brightest" of his generation - McNamara - did not know the difference between "off the record" and "not for attribution". 

The missile gap was the product of CIA guesswork. Satellite imagery was not available in the '50 - they had limited knowledge based on a  few overflights and Niki K bragging in speeches about missiles rolling off the assembly line. 

The material you are citing is all over the shop. It takes aim at Kennedy for berating McNamara for letting the truth seep into the media - but also has Kennedy wanting to get the facts out there lest US enemies perceive them as being weak, and vulnerable to attack.

As for the tapes... . even though transcripts may be prepared with great care, ambiguity is inevitable, and erroneous interpretations from transcripts are always possible. 

Some belts for example, had cracks due to storage conditions and being squashed flat, and upon playback several produced 
echoes that distorted sound, as well as repeats and skips in sound. . 

The transcribing process actually ground to a virtual standstill because of a lack of resources, the poor quality of the tapes and a shortage of knowledgeable scholars with the appropriate security clearances to do the work. In short, it was almost reaching the point of being a bit of a clusterfuck.

The above account is corroborated based on JFK’s remarks during a February 8, 1961 press conference:

https://youtu.be/yLXpffYtNB0?si=jxwnfS7aMYMS2fy1&t=151

I would disagree that it is corroboration. Kennedy said he talked to McNamara who denied knowing if  a gap existed or not. The press also say that the Press Secretary denied the reports and Kennedy cites other officials who indicate the existence of the gap is under investigation, but not yet known.

If you want to make the case that Kennedy lied during the press conference, that's one thing, but on face value it does not corroborate Reeves. You seem to acknowledge this with the following.

JFK deftly handles the question on McNamara’s remarks by saying that the issue was to be studied and the conclusions of that study would be released when it was completed. Though additional Corona satellite photos added additional confirmation that the US had even greater ICBM capacity than the Soviets, it was pretty clear the administration knew early on that the missile gap was BS. The announcement in late 1961 offered a decent interval to save face.

You may be right. But let's recap again.

The missile gap was predicated on insufficient intelligence including Niki K speeches in the 1950s.

It was Ike who offered missiles to NATO countries and put them in Italy and Turkey.

Ike also signed off to place long range missiles on Turkey during 1961. That responsibility fell on Kennedy. Whether he agreed with putting them there are not, getting out of that deal would have had dire political consequences. 

The truth about the gap began to emerge with the use of satellite imagery. The first batch of images was obtained in September 1960. That would not have been sufficient to make a determination. When Kennedy said at the Feb 1961 that it is too soon to determine the facts, I believe he was telling the truth. It may also be true that the guesswork that the Soviets were ahead was by Feb 61, replaced by updated guesswork that this was maybe not the case. Both of those positions can co-exist. 

I don't know how many satellite missions were flown between Sept 1960 and September 1961 when Kennedy is officially briefed on the actual facts, but my own best guess would be that a year seems reasonable to gather enough satellite imagery to make that final call. 


As a general statement... Did Kennedy dance around the truth with the media? I am sure he did from time to time. He was a politician.  

Reeves is s a spinmeister. I am not convinced that Kennedy is to blame for the CMC based on any of this. Nor am I convinced that Kennedy knew the missile gap was bullshit during the election. Though anytime after September 1960, he may have been updated,  with the previous bad guess he relied upon, being replaced by a not-as-bad bad guess. Then the actual facts finally in Sept 1961.