DVP, The Bug and a BooBoo

From http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20483#entry278855

DVP wrote:A related excerpt regarding Oswald's interrogation on Sunday, Nov. 24 (from Vince Bugliosi's book):

"During Sunday's interrogation Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor [of the TSBD] at the time of the assassination. .... In his Sunday-morning interrogation he said that at lunchtime, one of the "Negro" employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he declined. .... He said before he could finish whatever he was doing, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he "WENT DOWNSTAIRS," a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that he was one of their employees. .... WHERE WAS OSWALD AT THE TIME THE NEGRO EMPLOYEE INVITED HIM TO LUNCH, AND BEFORE HE DESCENDED TO THE SECOND-FLOOR LUNCHROOM? [Answer:] The sixth floor." [All emphasis Bugliosi's.] -- VB; Page 957 of "Reclaiming History"

Sources for the above Bugliosi excerpt are Page 636 of the Warren Report and Harry Holmes' WC testimony (at 7 H 302).

Because this interpretation is what the WC insisted was correct... it left itself with a wee bit of a problem...

The only person who claimed to discuss lunch with Oswald was Eddie Piper -- and that occurred on the 1st floor. 

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?
Mr. PIPER. You mean all day-the rest of the day?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. PIPER. No.
Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock.
Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock?
Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about lunch time. I believe I’ll go have
lunch.” So, he says, “Yeah’‘-he mumbled something-I don’t know whether he
said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and
went on back to the first window of the first door.

Given that Piper seemed to be the person in question - and given both the interpretation put on Oswald's side of the above incident AND that they knew damn well that Piper closely resembled the person described by Rowland up on the 6th floor, Ball continually peppered Piper with pickled posers questions about being on and between the 4th and 6th floors that day. We will not concern ourselves with Piper's denials. Just look at the questions. 

------------------
Mr. BALL. Were you above the flrst floor that day up to the time of the shot?

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. BALL. You went to the fourth floor?

Mr. BALL. Now, that day, November 22, 1963, you picked up the mail on
the fourth floor at 11 did you?

Mr Ball. Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date?

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor?
 
Mr. BALL. You never did-either before or after the shots?
-----------------------
Seven questions on the same theme.

When Piper says Oswald said he was "going up or out" and he couldn't remember which... Piper was giving the WC an "out". Piper knew Oswald said he was going "out". It was Piper who went upstairs, and the conversation probably took place after 12 noon. When Oswald talked about going "downstairs", he was talking about his first attempt to leave the building and being stopped by Welcome Barnett. The events have simply been compressed in time either on purpose or because of the way various reports were written (i.e. not very clearly/not detailed enough/compressed).

Greg,

Oswald was seen on the first floor, (near the phone) by Shelly after Shelley descended just before the floor laying crew. This was about 11.50 or so. The official version would then have Oswald go up to the 5th floor (using the west elevator), and be on the eastern side of the east elevator during the race down by the others. Likely within a few minutes. I can't imaging the crew hanging around after the boss has knocked off. This is likely a couple of minutes. Let's say 11.52. He calls for the elevator gate to be closed to the guys in the west elevator. He must come down to the first floor sometime after to be seen by Piper at noon. I wonder if Piper's 12 o'clock is a generic term for lunch time. Remember Piper says he took up a position in the windows at the front. One that gave almost no view of the motorcade. Perhaps the conversation was later than noon, and as Oswald was on his way to the TSBD steps. Maybe he passed Piper already eating his lunch in position. This of course would have Oswald on the 5th floor alone for an extended period. I wonder if he had an interesting phone call just before noon that necessitated a trip to the 5th floor. For 15 maybe. Then down to the domino room in time to see Jarman and Norman pass on their way to the elevators. This was about 12.20-12.25. Maybe he thought the motorcade had already passed as it was due around this time, seeing the two men might have led him to believe it was over. And they were returning from viewing.

Colin,

All the times given are shaky because none of the timings match.

Look at Jarman.

This is from his first day statement:

"the last time I saw Lee Oswald on November 22, 1963 was between 11:30 and 12 when he was taking the elevator upstairs to get some boxes."

In context, this has to be a 1st floor incident. Yet he then claims he and the other sniper nest builders floor layers (including Shelley) came down to lunch together at 11:45. 
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0463-001.gif

Look at Arce's statement. 

"I was working on the 6th floor all morning. At lunch time at 12 noon, I went down onto the street to see the parade..." He finishes the statement with "I also saw him [Oswald] on the 5th floor as we were leaving for lunch at 11:50..."
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0468-001.gif

Jarman would go on to tell the WC that he never saw Oswald at any time again after about 9:30.

Arce would go on to tell the WC he wasn't really sure whether he had seen Oswald on the 5th or 6th. 

Is it possible he was not up there at all? Is it possible that since the 5th floor was initially reported as being where the shots came from, the DPD merely got certain witnesses to put in a sighting of Oswald on the 5th floor? Evidence of this happening is that it did in fact happen later. Those witnesses who initially said "5th floor" had changed to "6th floor" by the time of their WC appearance.

The clip board is also found up there very late - to reinforce the new lie.

In short - this is no different to the situation with the 2nd floor lunchroom store. It went through a number of revisions.

A LN complaint has always been - if all this witness testimony was suborned to prove Oswald guilty, why not just get one of them to say he witnessed Oswald pull the trigger?

What Sean and PM do is reframe the whole setting. The intent was NOT to prove Oswald guilty - it was all about denying him his 1st floor alibi so that he could be made to look guilty with all the (bogus) evidence now "collected".

I agree about the problem with the time quoted by the witnesses. As a general comment I think they used noon or 12 to indicate the time they went for lunch. It is not to be taken literally but as a term to reference what they were doing.

Jarman was not in the floor laying crew. He was an order checker and based on the first floor that day. If you read his first day statement again he does not say he came down with the others. He indicates who they were and when they came down. I believe the conversation about the crowd gathering outside is not 9 but closer to 11.30. Just before he is sent by Jarman to fix an order. This is when he sees Oswald go up. There was no noticable crowd standing outside for the motorcade 3 and a half hours before it was due.

He was on the 5th when the race occurred. Only briefly visible to those in the east elevator.

The real problem is the manipulation of these guys after the basic story was told by them. Eg Givens fanciful cigarette story, Williams multiple accounts of where, how and for how long. These guys were chess pieces, moved about to suit the script writers. As with all fabrications, they never hold water. The creators can never cover all the possibilities that will arise from a fabrication. Bonnie Ray was the most useful of these. Lying about bringing his lunch from home, the lift and stair movements and what floor he was on and when.

Colin Crow wrote:I agree about the problem with the time quoted by the witnesses. As a general comment I think they used noon or 12 to indicate the time they went for lunch. It is not to be taken literally but as a term to reference what they were doing.

Jarman was not in the floor laying crew. He was an order checker and based on the first floor that day. If you read his first day statement again he does not say he came down with the others. He indicates who they were and when they came down. I believe the conversation about the crowd gathering outside is not 9 but closer to 11.30. Just before he is sent by Jarman to fix an order. This is when he sees Oswald go up. There was no noticable crowd standing outside for the motorcade 3 and a half hours before it was due.

He was on the 5th when the race occurred. Only briefly visible to those in the east elevator.

The real problem is the manipulation of these guys after the basic story was told by them. Eg Givens fanciful cigarette story, Williams multiple accounts of where, how and for how long. These guys were chess pieces, moved about to suit the script writers. As with all fabrications, they never hold water. The creators can never cover all the possibilities that will arise from a fabrication. Bonnie Ray was the most useful of these. Lying about bringing his lunch from home, the lift and stair movements and what floor he was on and when.

Thanks for the Correction, Colin. You're right - he was a checker. 

You may well be right too, that if Jarman did send Oswald back up to correct an order, it was a couple of hours after he originally claimed. He said it was between 11:30 and 12 to the HSCA investigator who spoke to him. 

  
 
 
And I couldn't agree more - the "chess piece" analogy is perfect.