William Shelley's CIA claim

Shelley told a reporter he was an intelligence officer during WWII.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QKzL5jhXLaYC&lpg=PT186&dq=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&pg=PT186#v=onepage&q=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&f=false

He had told the WC however that he left school and worked in defense plants during the war and then commenced with the TSBD in October, 1945.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm

He was not asked and did not volunteer which defense plant. But If I recall my Phil Ochs correctly, didn't working in a de-fense plant get you out of being conscripted? If so, isn't some kind of privileged background indicated by that?

Whatever...

Note that Shelley seems to have chosen his words carefully... he never said he was an intelligence officer IN the war.... he merely said "during".

According to the Church Committee, defense plants had army, navy and FBI informants working on the inside because of fear of saboteurs and strikes... 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=150797&imageOnly=true

So it appears that Shelley may well have been just that - an informant...and his claim of "intelligence officer turned CIA" was merely a case of inflating his own importance.  Any informant role he may have had in this un-named defense plant could easily have continued. As I have previously noted, TSBD President Jack Cason and the FBI very likely had a close relationship. See https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t243-the-6th-floor-whitewash-an-example

I know I have used a fistful of qualifiers... but really... it looks like a slam dunk to me...

greg parker wrote:Shelley told a reporter he was an intelligence officer during WWII.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QKzL5jhXLaYC&lpg=PT186&dq=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&pg=PT186#v=onepage&q=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&f=false

He had told the WC however that he left school and worked in a defense plant during the war and then commenced with the TSBD in October, 1945.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm

He was not asked and did not volunteer which defense plant. But If I recall my Phil Ochs correctly, didn't working in a de-fense plant get you out of being conscripted? If so, isn't some kind of privileged background indicated by that?

Whatever...

Note that Shelley seems to have chosen his words carefully... he never said he was an intelligence officer IN the war.... he merely said "during".

According to the Church Committee, defense plants had army, navy and FBI informants working on the inside because of fear of saboteurs and strikes... 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=150797&imageOnly=true

So it appears that Shelley may well have been just that - an informant...and his claim of "intelligence officer turned CIA" was merely a case of inflating his own importance.  Any informant role he may have had in this un-named defense plant could easily have continued. As I have previously noted, TSBD President Jack Cason and the FBI very likely had a close relationship. See https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t243-the-6th-floor-whitewash-an-example

I know I have used a fistful of qualifiers... but really... it looks like a slam dunk to me...

From what we now know about Roy Truly's background, the history of the TSBD itself, and the way in which informers seemed to litter every street corner I would be most surprised if this wasn't the case.

Especially bearing in mind that the triangular relationships between Cason, Truly and Shelley seemed to be pretty tight.  Sorry to keep harping on about it but I still think there is a important story behind Mauser that Cason brought to work that week and the two other people who held the weapon and filled it with their finger prints were Roy Truly and Bill Shelley.

As far as Shelley's intelligence background - yeah, slam dunk for me too.

Lee Farley wrote:

greg parker wrote:Shelley told a reporter he was an intelligence officer during WWII.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QKzL5jhXLaYC&lpg=PT186&dq=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&pg=PT186#v=onepage&q=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&f=false

He had told the WC however that he left school and worked in a defense plant during the war and then commenced with the TSBD in October, 1945.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm

He was not asked and did not volunteer which defense plant. But If I recall my Phil Ochs correctly, didn't working in a de-fense plant get you out of being conscripted? If so, isn't some kind of privileged background indicated by that?

Whatever...

Note that Shelley seems to have chosen his words carefully... he never said he was an intelligence officer IN the war.... he merely said "during".

According to the Church Committee, defense plants had army, navy and FBI informants working on the inside because of fear of saboteurs and strikes... 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=150797&imageOnly=true

So it appears that Shelley may well have been just that - an informant...and his claim of "intelligence officer turned CIA" was merely a case of inflating his own importance.  Any informant role he may have had in this un-named defense plant could easily have continued. As I have previously noted, TSBD President Jack Cason and the FBI very likely had a close relationship. See https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t243-the-6th-floor-whitewash-an-example

I know I have used a fistful of qualifiers... but really... it looks like a slam dunk to me...

From what we now know about Roy Truly's background, the history of the TSBD itself, and the way in which informers seemed to litter every street corner I would be most surprised if this wasn't the case.

Especially bearing in mind that the triangular relationships between Cason, Truly and Shelley seemed to be pretty tight.  Sorry to keep harping on about it but I still think there is a important story behind Mauser that Cason brought to work that week and the two other people who held the weapon and filled it with their finger prints were Roy Truly and Bill Shelley.

As far as Shelley's intelligence background - yeah, slam dunk for me too.

Thanks Lee. Use of qualifiers only for lack of absolute proof. But for me, his bragging about being a past intel officer during the war just reeks of having a scintilla of truth inflated almost beyond recognition. And LO! it turns out he did work in a place that had intelligence connections.... via low level informants working on the factory floors...

Re Cason -- presumably you mean Castor?

greg parker wrote:

Lee Farley wrote:

greg parker wrote:Shelley told a reporter he was an intelligence officer during WWII.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QKzL5jhXLaYC&lpg=PT186&dq=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&pg=PT186#v=onepage&q=%22william%20shelley%22%20dallas&f=false

He had told the WC however that he left school and worked in a defense plant during the war and then commenced with the TSBD in October, 1945.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm

He was not asked and did not volunteer which defense plant. But If I recall my Phil Ochs correctly, didn't working in a de-fense plant get you out of being conscripted? If so, isn't some kind of privileged background indicated by that?

Whatever...

Note that Shelley seems to have chosen his words carefully... he never said he was an intelligence officer IN the war.... he merely said "during".

According to the Church Committee, defense plants had army, navy and FBI informants working on the inside because of fear of saboteurs and strikes... 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=150797&imageOnly=true

So it appears that Shelley may well have been just that - an informant...and his claim of "intelligence officer turned CIA" was merely a case of inflating his own importance.  Any informant role he may have had in this un-named defense plant could easily have continued. As I have previously noted, TSBD President Jack Cason and the FBI very likely had a close relationship. See https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t243-the-6th-floor-whitewash-an-example

I know I have used a fistful of qualifiers... but really... it looks like a slam dunk to me...

From what we now know about Roy Truly's background, the history of the TSBD itself, and the way in which informers seemed to litter every street corner I would be most surprised if this wasn't the case.

Especially bearing in mind that the triangular relationships between Cason, Truly and Shelley seemed to be pretty tight.  Sorry to keep harping on about it but I still think there is a important story behind Mauser that Cason brought to work that week and the two other people who held the weapon and filled it with their finger prints were Roy Truly and Bill Shelley.

As far as Shelley's intelligence background - yeah, slam dunk for me too.

Re Cason -- presumably you mean Castor?

You know what?  If I had £1 for every time I've made that mistake I'd have enough money for a Big Mac meal.

Bradley - Brading.

Cason - Castor.

Harvey - Lee.

We all make mistakes.  

"We all make mistakes."

Too right - but as many mistakes attributed to so many people by the WC??? I suspect not...

"Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during WWII and thereafterjoined the CIA"

is what journalist Elzie Dean Glaze wrote in a 1989 letter, based upon information obtained in a 1975 interview of William Shelley. Glaze was allowed to take notes and use a tape recorder. "Thereafter", to my mind, spells 1947-49. And since he joined the TSBD (then known as the Hugh Perry Book Depository) in late October, 1945, it's pretty clear that he went direct from whatever defense plant he was working in during the war to a clerk position at the Depository.

And joined the CIA during its formative years, while he was in his early 20's.

The William Weston article subsequently details that "After the assassination, the Dallas Police placed Shelley under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President". To my mind that is the reason Shelley was held 'til 5 PM and produced TWO first-day affidavits.

"The Glaze Letters" in The Fourth Decade, Vol. 6, No. 4, May 1999

Richard Gilbride wrote:"Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during WWII and thereafterjoined the CIA"

is what journalist Elzie Dean Glaze wrote in a 1989 letter, based upon information obtained in a 1975 interview of William Shelley. Glaze was allowed to take notes and use a tape recorder. "Thereafter", to my mind, spells 1947-49. And since he joined the TSBD (then known as the Hugh Perry Book Depository) in late October, 1945, it's pretty clear that he went direct from whatever defense plant he was working in during the war to a clerk position at the Depository.

And joined the CIA during its formative years, while he was in his early 20's.

The William Weston article subsequently details that "After the assassination, the Dallas Police placed Shelley under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President". To my mind that is the reason Shelley was held 'til 5 PM and produced TWO first-day affidavits.

"The Glaze Letters" in The Fourth Decade, Vol. 6, No. 4, May 1999

Richard, thanks for the heads up on the article. I don't buy the CIA story, which sounds to me like the braggadocio of someone who was a low level informant wishing he was more. 

If he was arrested as claimed by Weston, shouldn't there be an arrest report in the Dallas files? Do you know what sources Weston used for this?

Weston mentions two letters he had physical possession of. The first was dated June 2, 1989 to an Austin-based group known as the Alternative Information Network. He acquired that from Larry Ray Harris.

The second was a letter to the HSCA dated December 12, 1977. Weston acquired that from the Archives. He says he based his article upon the content in the two letters. The HSCA letter and their reply (from Blakey) are footnoted as HSCA doc #004079 and 004741.

Where i sense the braggadocio is in "intelligence officer" during WWII. At 18, 19, or 20 years old Shelley couldn't have been much more than a corporal in the OSS, working Stateside, but "officer" includes the possibility that he'd been a captain, a much more impressive resume for his listeners' ears.

To go from an intelligence organization (whatever it was) directly into the TSBD hints at a TSBD link into the intelligence community.

All this discussion of Shelley's intelligence background brings me back to Frankie Kaiser; a likely FBI informant. Perhaps Shelley and Kaiser had a much closer working relationship than we know.

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26480-the-cia-and-the-book-depository/#comments
Amazing how both sides of the "debate" are avoiding directly answering each other - while also avoiding responding to this thread - linked to by an innocent bystander in the pie-throwing.

They are all stuck in the same LN/CT tar-pit. 

Lance makes some good points while still assiduously missing the target.

So why are these points being avoided like I don't know, some sort of pandemic that needs social distancing?

The CIA is not allowed to run operations internally. That should be enough to set off alarm bells right there. But does it?  Of course not. 

As I have pointed out in the past, Jack Cason had been a former Commander of the American Legion, Post #53 in Dallas. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=369187

As I have also pointed out, both Roy Truly and his long-time side-kick Bill Shelley, worked in defense plants during WWII. Truly testified that he work for North American Aviation. 

Mr. BELIN. And then what?
Mr. TRULY. I worked on through that time until the present time. During the war I worked in the North American plant at Arlington.
Mr. BELIN. That is the North American Aviation?
Mr. TRULY. North American Aviation plant at Arlington, for around 14 months, at night. But I continued to hold my job.
Well, I would go down to work 2, 3, 4 hours a day. Shortly after that, I took charge of all the shipping.
Well, I have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late 1944.

Shelley did not name which facility he worked at but North American Aviation seems a safe assumption since Shelley ended up working at the TSBD after the war and both were very much into show dogs. 

So you have a director who had been a long time Commander of a local American Legion Post and another director and a section manager who had both worked in a defense plant.

What's the big deal about that?

The FBI.

The FBI Plant Informant Program ran from 1940 to 1969. In 1942, this program had nearly 24,000 confidential informants in nearly 4000 defense plants. 

The American Legion Contact Program ran from 1940 to 1954. This program used Legion members as confidential sources. But even after it closed the program, FBI Field Offices were instructed to maintain contact with Legion Officials. Background checks were conducted on such sources.

You can read more about both programs here https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1159#relPageId=261

It seems a safe assumption that both Truly and Shelley had been involved in the FBI Plant Informant program and that Cason had been involved in the Legion Contact Program - and it follows that a close working relationship with the FBI continued between all players and the company they worked for.

Given that the FBI did background checks on potential informants in these type programs,  the Glaze letter posted by Bart in this thread stating that two female employees were questioned by the FBI during the process of applying to work for the company may well be within the bounds of possibility.

Shelley claiming to be CIA on the other hand, was nothing but braggadocio to impress a gullible cub reporter. He had very likely though, been an FBI informant during the war - along with Truly and Cason - and they and the company simply maintained ties to the FBI, bringing the TSBD into the fold of places housing "confidential informants".

The CIA angle is garbage - and therefore, so far as the piece on Kennedy and King goes - it is a matter of garbage in - garbage out.

The only question is, can either side at the 13" Head Forum bring themselves to admit they were ALL wrong? 

I won't hold my breath.

Greg, that is a valid assessment, and worth considering.
My angle will be the utter lack of proof of the so called agency connection. I am still working on it. In a nutshell one wonders whether Dick Gilbride actually wrote that crap: "if such....then we might have such, which defo means that......" 
It just boggles the mind how people swallow this so called connection as a whole....then again at the same time we deal with the existence of the ueber troll Brian Doyle and his deluded falsifications and disgusting lies (close to 700 recorded!) as well. So no surprises really if you look at it closely.

From little tin foil acorns do the tin foil trees grow...and when harvested by poor down on their luck ex doppelgangers...the tin foil makes fetching hats t prevent the micro wave pulse beams and stopping the blood flow to the brain.
Kudos t you guys for having the skill and tenacity t hack through all the distortions exaggerations and downright wishful thinking masquerading as research.
The " if he knew him then he must have known his 2nd cousin" school of research has never really struck me as viable.
Armstrong only knows what Tom Scully and co could come up with if you locked them in a warehouse with a pile of obituaries a pair of scissors a pot of glue and the knickers Cicely Angleton wore t the wedding of her gardeners Puerto Rican cousin...
Imagine what Brian could come up with if you gave him the same ingredients..
One would come up with the extremely convoluted solution t the early 20th centuries unsolved Servant Girl Annihilator murders..
While the other would end up flat on his back covered with pages of suspiciously coagulated obituaries fantasizing about committing the Servant Girl Annihilator murders...
So many conspiracy facts boil down t the same nebulous poorly defined chaos of wishful thinking and wilful blindness.

Babs and Clean Willie were in love they said
So in love the preacher's face turned red
Soon everybody knew the thing was dead
He shouts, she bites, they wrangle through the night
She go crazy
Got to make a getaway
Papa say
Oh - no hesitation
No tears and no hearts breakin'
No remorse
Oh - congratulations
This is your Haitian Divorce

Stan Dane wrote:Babs and Clean Willie were in love they said
So in love the preacher's face turned red
Soon everybody knew the thing was dead
He shouts, she bites, they wrangle through the night
She go crazy
Got to make a getaway
Papa say
Oh - no hesitation
No tears and no hearts breakin'
No remorse
Oh - congratulations
This is your Haitian Divorce

She takes the taxi to the good hotel
Bon marché as far as she can tell
She drinks the zombie from the cocoa shell
She feels alright, she get it on tonight
Mister driver
Take me where the music play
Papa say
Oh - no hesitation
No tears and no hearts breakin'
No remorse
Oh - congratulations
This is your Haitian Divorce

Do we really believe it's not him in NO supervising his boys? Bones don't lie. His brow and cheek bones really do stand out as highlighted below. I say it's him. And then LHO lands in TSBD with the same supervisor? (as noted on EF by Ron Bulman)

I find the Dallas Shelley has a pointier nose than the New Orleans one.

Yes, that nose is an issue.