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Lost in Translation
Fri 29 Nov 2013, 8:45 pm
Here is a thread of mine from the EF that goes into a bit of detail concerning Marina Oswald's language capabilities and the White Russian communities involvement in translating for her after the assassination. I have become quite concerned over recent months that quite a few of my threads have disappeared from the Education Forum and I want to make sure I grab as many as I can in case more begin to vanish. I hope some people find the following interesting. You really begin to see how some of these strange people begin to close in around Marina and how completely unethical and amoral this investigation truly was.
This thread is about the interpreters used during Marina Oswald’s interviews from the minute the Police turned up in Irving until her last appearance in front of the Warren Commission.
On November 22nd, 1963, the Dallas Police arrived at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, the residence of Ruth Hyde Paine. They were accompanied by members of Irving County Law Enforcement who legally had jurisdiction over the search of the property. Before they could enter Paine’s home they had to wait approximately 40 minutes before Irving County Sheriff’s personnel arrived.
When they got to the door of the property Mrs. Paine greeted them by stating, “Come on in, we’ve been expecting you. Just as soon as we heard what happened we knew you would be out.” About an hour later Ruth Paine’s estranged husband, Michael Paine, turned up at the property. “Just as soon as I heard what building the shots were fired from I knew you would be out. So I came on over to see if I could help in any way” he said.
Obviously, the members of the DPD and Irving team were left with the impression that Marina spoke no English so Ruth Paine stepped up to the plate. She translated the questions from English into Russian and translated the answers from Russian into English. Gus Rose, one of the lead investigators at the Irving property later said in his testimony before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, “I had to assume what Paine told me was true because I couldn’t understand the Russian language.” Paine then, interpreting for Marina, took Rose to the garage and pointed to a blanket as being the place where Oswald apparently kept the rifle. As we all know, the blanket was empty.
Rose also said in his HSCA testimony that when he picked up the empty blanket, “Ruth Paine [then] said something to Marina and Marina had a real shocked look on her face.” The truth of the matter is this; we do not know whether the translating was done accurately by Ruth Paine. We do not know whether the questions posed by Gus Rose were identical to the questions posed by Paine. We do not know whether the answers given by Marina were the answers translated back verbatim by Paine.
We do not know why Marina had a “real shocked” look on her face when Ruth Paine said what she said after Rose picked up the empty blanket. What we do know is that when Marina was taken to the station to complete her first affidavit she claimed that Oswald did not own a rifle in the United States, which is a bit strange seeing as how a couple of hours previous she admitted Oswald’s rifle was in the blanket in the Irving Street garage.
In the affidavit, Marina states, in black and white, that when Officers were at the Paine residence she told them that her husband, “…used to have a rifle to hunt with in Russia.” This is not what was translated for Gus Rose by Ruth Paine. The bottom line of all of this, in the initial hours after the assassination, is that Marina Oswald DID NOT admit, in any legal way, that her husband owned that rifle that was allegedly in Ruth Paine’s garage. She instead admitted that her husband used to own a rifle in Russia.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0423-001.gif (Marina Oswald’s first affidavit)
What credence can we then place upon the accurate translation of Marina Oswald’s words by Ruth Paine? The simple answer is none. We don’t know what was said during the search of that house. There could be many reasons why Marina was “shocked” when Ruth Paine began translating after the rifle blanket was found, especially if Marina’s English was much better than we have been lead to believe.
In actual fact, what credence can we place upon the translating being accurate when she was first taken into police custody? When Marina was taken to the station her words were interpreted by a Dallas resident by the name of Ilya Aleksandrovich Mamantov. Mamantov was a member of the White Russian community. This is the group of Russian emigres that had been so accommodating to Marina Oswald when she first arrived in the United States. The White Russians consisted of people like George Bouhe, Peter Paul Gregory, George DeMohrenschildt, Elena Hall, Anna Meller, Anna Ford and others. Bitterly anti-Communist and in some cases extreme right-wing fascist in their views they were quite closely connected to the Oswald’s, and were heavily involved in their relationship problems during the latter part of 1962 and the early part of 1963. It was this group, post-assassination, that painted the most vivid picture of Oswald as a wife-beating, brooding, psychopathic loser during their interviews and testimony.
How did Mamantov become the translator for Marina immediately after the assassination? Mamantov got the job on the advice of a Mr. Jack Alston Crichton who was an independent oil operator in Dallas. Crichton suggested Mamantov for the job to the Dallas Police even though he had not done any official translating for any company prior to the assassination. What is really interesting about Jack Crichton is that he was a Colonel in the Army Reserve, and was also headed a local Army Intelligence Unit in Dallas. It was on Crichton’s advice, as per the Forrest Sorrels memo below, that Mamantov was hired. For this to happen so quickly suggests that Police Intelligence was linking with Army Intelligence immediately after the assassination.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10787&relPageId=9
So, if the White Russian community had something to hide, post-assassination, what better way to leverage pressure upon Marina than to have one of them in the room with her when she was being questioned about matters relating to her relationship with Oswald and matters pertaining to his activities in the lead-in to the assassination? Remember, Mamantov would not be the only person, who had ties to Lee and Marina Oswald, who would end up being in such close proximity to her whilst in protective custody. Peter Paul Gregory also makes an appearance.
One thing that jumps out of Marina’s first day affidavit is this:
“Today at the Police Station they showed me a rifle. This was like the rifle my husband had. It was a dark gun.”
It was a “dark gun.” Why is this important? It seems insignificant but if one goes to the Secret Service interviews that they conducted with Marina at the Six Flags Inn in Dallas you will find this:
Q. Did Lee purchase any type of gun whilst living in the United States?
A. She says that she knew there was a rifle in the house. She says that she saw the gun in the house in New Orleans and in Dallas.
Q. This gun, was it the rifle or a pistol or just what type of gun? Can she answer that?
A. It was a gun.
Mr. Gregory asked: Can you describe it?
NOTE: Subject said: I cannot describe it because a rifle to me like all rifles.
Gregory translation: She said she cannot describe it. It was sort of a dark rifle just like any other common rifle.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10745&relPageId=24 CD344 – Secret Service Howard Tape Copy of Interview
As you can see, Mr. Peter Paul Gregory, who had links to Oswald when Oswald arrived back in Dallas after his departure from the Soviet Union, makes an appearance as Marina’s translator during this interview and the person who transcribed the tape of the interview actually writes that Gregory mistranslates Marina’s words. Not just any old words, but the words, “Dark rifle.” These are the same words that are in Marina’s original first day affidavit that was interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, who was pushed into the case by a member of Army Intelligence from Dallas.
When the Warren Commission’s Southern contingent got access to Marina away from the likes of Dulles and Ford they, led by Richard Russell, started to turn the thumb screws on Marina concerning her relationship with Oswald, her incredible departure from the Soviet Union, Oswald’s Mexico City trip and the ownership of the rifle and pistol. Unfortunately, they had the White Russian, Peter Paul Gregory, working as a translator again alongside Leon Gopadze from the U.S. Secret Service Office. Similar to the mistranslation that Gregory made in the Six Flags interview concerning the “dark rifle” he also conveniently mistranslates on the same issue during Marina’s Dallas WC testimony (the single asterisk next to Marina’s name denotes that it was Gregory who translated the answer):
Senator RUSSELL. Did you not testify that you thought this was Lee’s rifle that was shown you as the one that shot Connally and the President?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes ; I testified that that was the rifle.
Mr. GOPADZE. No - I’m sorry. As far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes ; that’s right.
Senator RUSSELL. That’s all I asked her. That’s just exactly what I asked her.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes ; that’s correct.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/pdf/WH5_MarinaOswald_3rd.pdf
The reason the correction is made is because Leon Gopadze jumps in and corrects Gregory’s misleading translation concerning the rifle. So, instead of Marina Oswald being on record saying it “…was the rifle”, she is instead on record more accurately stating that it “looked like the one he had”, as per her original affidavit taken on the 22nd.
So, what was going on with these mysterious White Russians penetrating the inner sanctum of the investigation? Why was not a conflict of interest identified concerning Peter Paul Gregory, who was not only a witness to some important aspects of Oswald’s life in ’62 and ’63, but was also invited to translate the interviews and testimony of the most important witness regarding Lee Harvey Oswald? Why was Ilya Mamantov pushed into the case?
Jack Crichton wasn’t just any old Army reservist. He was responsible for actually creating the 488th Army Intelligence Division in Dallas. He was close friends with many members of the Texas power elite including D.H. Byrd and Clint Murchison. After the assassination he actually ran for Texas Governor but was beaten by John Connally.
In addition to Crichton’s influence in getting Ilya Mamantov into the lions den he was also influential prior to the assassination regarding the motorcade. John Simkin, Bill Kelly and others have written extensively on Crichton being involved in managing to place Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmire in the Presidential motorcade pilot car. Whitmire’s name was not on the official SS list of occupants that were due to be in that particular vehicle:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0321a.htm
The official occupants were supposed to be; Jacob L. “Jack” Puterbaugh (Democratic National Committee), Deputy Chief G. L. Lumpkin, and Detectives F. M. Turner and Billy Senkle. Yet, Whitmire was in it. And he managed to get in it due to the influence of Jack Alston Crichton. This would be the same pilot car that stopped in front of the TSBD and had Lumpkin go and issue orders to members of the DPD who were stationed there. The Dallas Police actually had Jack Puterbaugh listed as Secret Service when he was actually a political advance man for the DNC.
So Jack Crichton was not only connected to the Dallas Power elite and military intelligence, he was actually responsible for getting people into the motorcade and then was influential in getting Ilya Mamantov the job as Marina’s interpreter.
So why would he want Mamantov spinning Marina’s words? Ilya Aleksandrovich Mamantov was born in Russia in 1914. He moved to Latvia when he quite young and during the Second World War he was captured with the retreating German Army and ended up in a displaced persons camp. He arrived in the United States in 1951.
Mamantov became a seismologist for the Donnally Geophysical Company between 1951-1955 and worked in many U.S. States before settling into a job at Sun Oil Company, Dallas in 1955.
He was married to a woman called Dorothy Gravitis and Gravitis’ mother was a close friend of Ruth Paine. Although Mamantov claims to have never met Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina but he did know a great deal about the Oswald’s personal lives, both in Russia and in the United States.
Mamantov, in his Warren Commission testimony, was asked by Albert Jenner how he was contacted after the assassination to conduct the interpreting of Marina Oswald. Mamantov initially claimed it was the Dallas Police that contacted him around 5pm on the 22nd of November:
Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police department?
Mr. MANANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he’s Lieutenant they call him Chief.
Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin – is it important?
Mr. JENNER. I don’t know-you might state what it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)- I don’t know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.
Mr. JENNER. And who is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I’m not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.
What we have here is a man connected to the rabidly anti-Communist White Russian community with links to Lee Oswald, Marina Oswald, and Ruth Paine being called to do the translating by a man with links to the Dallas power Elite and military intelligence, who had influence over the occupants of the pilot car, and followed up by a call from a man who was in the motorcade pilot car.
At the start of Mamantov’s testimony he says the following when asked about signing his deposition:
Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn’t matter-what the proper procedure is - I would like to read those - it’s always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you.
Mamantov knew explicitly that changing single words changes meaning and when the “dark gun” element is written in Marina’s original affidavit and the fact that Oswald owned a similar rifle in Russia one begins to get the feeling that the link between the assassination and the Soviet Union has officially started and would be brought to bear as pressure on Marina over the next few months.
To then find Peter Paul Gregory inserting the phrase, “It was sort of a dark rifle…” into Marina’s Secret Service interview at Six Flags that was noted by the person who typed up the transcript of the verbal interview as being in error because Marina actually said, “I cannot describe it because a rifle to me like all rifles” then the pattern of trying to implicate the Soviets can be seen.
On November 23rd, 1963 Mamantov was interviewed by the FBI. In his statement he begins implicating George DeMohrenschildt as being a communist and seemed to have quite a few details concerning DeMohrenshildt’s travels around the world. He claims that he and other members of the White Russian community suspected that DeMohrenschildt was responsible for subversive activities within the United States.
http://www.maryferre...sPageId=1005931
After Mamantov had been used as an interpreter on the 22nd and 23rd of November, 1963 he then made an effort to link the assassination to the Soviet Union with the U.S. media. On December 5th he was interviewed by KRLD announcer Warren Fulks, in the KRLD studios. In that interview he not only accused Oswald of being linked to the Soviet Union and killed JFK on their behalf in furtherance of the Communist ideology, but he also implicated Jack Ruby as being part of the communist “underground conspiracy” and he killed Oswald to shut him up. Mamantov also explicitly states that Oswald yelling that he wanted to see “JACK ABT [sic]” was a code call to Jack Ruby.
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=703571 (FBI report on Mamantov’s KRLD interview)
In August 1977 the Soviet newspaper Nedelya printed a news story. It was entitled “Kto vy, doktor Mamantov?” (Who are you, Doctor Mamantov?) The news story was outing Ilya Mamantov as working for the CIA. In his capacity as a consultant on the USSR and Eastern Europe for Lake International Travel he was responsible for tours of the Soviet Union with students from the United States. Somebody who came into contact with him in Moscow, Yelena Samuilovna Pyatetskana, blew the whistle on him to the KGB after he tried to tap her up for information “damaging to the USSR.”
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=894389
In the same article a “friend” of Mamantov, US citizen Natalya Aleksandrovna Letter was also “outed” as a CIA agent. It is claimed that she is a daughter of Nazi war criminal and was looking for a variety of information whilst she was in the Soviet Union with Mamantov.
There are certain researchers out there that ask us to believe specific things that Marina said during her various interrogations and depositions. They pick and choose what they need in supporting their own pet theories. They then ignore the things that are inconvenient to their beliefs. One such researcher places great emphasis on the Six Flags Secret Service interviews but fails to tell his readers that it was Peter Paul Gregory that did the interpreting and that he was found out on many occasions of, what I believe, are purposeful mistranslations. He did this not only in the Secret Service interviews but also in Marina’s Warren Commission testimony numerous times. We then add this to Ilya Mamatov’s suspected CIA background, his relationship with members of Army Intelligence and his vociferous attempts to smear the Soviet Union and implicate them in the assassination and the whole situation takes on a very suspect nature.
Knowing that the White Russian community had Marina surrounded post assassination and their obvious ties to U.S. Intelligence, especially the CIA, and we begin to understand the phrase from Peter Paul Gregory during one of Marina’s Six Flag’s interrogations a whole lot more, when in the SS report of the interview this appears;
“…she was told for her own sake and her children’s sake to tell the truth during all of this investigation which would help her in the long run, and particularly with her desire to remain in the United States.”
http://www.maryferre...3&relPageId=139
The White Russians had surrounded Marina as soon as she arrived on U.S. soil, and they were still there when she in protective custody as well as when she was under oath.
Assorted comments:
http://www.maryferre...74&relPageId=31
"Mr. Mamantov said on one occasion he warned a mutual acquaintance, in 1962, against associating with DeMohrenshildt. A couple of days later, DeMohrenschildt called Mamantov and said, "A good friend of mine told me that you said I was a communist. If I hear any more statements of this nature, I will come over and beat the hell out of you."
On Marina’s English Language Capabilities
I don't think there is any doubt that she Marina had quite a bit of competence when it came to speaking and understanding English. Robert Webster claimed she was fluent in English. Marguerite claimed her English was good and she understood others speaking English. Ilya Mamantov is on record as believing that she could not have qualified as a pharmacist at the age of 21 in the Soviet Union and was obviously hinting at the fact that she was more than likely schooled in something else.
As I pointed out to David Lifton on the "Oswald’s Fake Bus RIde" thread, the building manager at the Elsbeth apartments, M. F. Tobias Snr., said that Marina's English was enough to understand and be understood:
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes ; and she was au awful nice girl.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she uuderstand you when you spoke to her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was - would come out in her front yard - I sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring, the baby out and, of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she could, because
he didn’t want her to anyway.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn’t want her to learn it.
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She said that much in English so that you would understand it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That’s quite a bit of English.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I know. That’s what, I’m trying to tell you - she knew more English than she let on she did.
Mr. JENNER. That’s of interest to us - she was able to communicate that whole idea to you in English?
Mr. TOBIAS. That’s right.
The White Russian community are up to their neck in this thing and most people interested in the case seem to focus far too much attention onto George DeMohrenshildt. I'm convinced that George was as much of a pawn as Oswald was and whether he found a way out because he sensed something was up or he was taken off Oswald's case for some other reason is anyone's guess but I don't believe for a second he was directly involved in the plot but was certainly forced to participate in the cover-up after the fact.
Just in case anyone is interested in the authenticity of Peter Paul Gregory's translating during Marina's deposition in front of Senator Russell and Hale Boggs have a read of this:
Mr. RANKIN. Now, When you testified before the Commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the Minsk factory, do you recall that?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. YOU said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. Do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* **
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don’t think I testified to that.
Mr. RANKIN. You don’t recall testifying to that?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. I testified that he was a - slesar.
Mr. GREGORY. Off the record, please?
She names a trade and that Russian word stands for locksmith, but I know that he was not a locksmith, I mean, from the description of work that he was doing. He was working at a factory where he was assembling details for metallic details. He was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers.
Mr. RANKIN. He told the FBI at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them. Mr. Gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know?
Mr. GREGORY. No ; she’s telling me, but Mrs. Oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the Russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r’.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you describe, Mrs. Oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. Tell us what he did?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been at the plant where Lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that Lee gave me--
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us that?* **
*Mrs. OSWALD. He was grinding details detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe. Perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. He may have actually done that kind of work, but I know nothing about that.
It's there for all to see. Gregory is jumping in and trying to influence the testimony concerning Oswald's work in Minsk. This job that is being discussed more accurately describes the work of Robert Webster. And as we all know Marina allegedly told Katya Ford (another of the White Russian community) that Lee went to Russia with an "exhibition." (CD5., p. 259) And again, we know it was Webster that went to Moscow to attend an exhibition with RAND Corporation.
http://www.maryferre...6&relPageId=265
Ruth Paine Makes Corrections to Marina’s Police Statement
Mr. MAMANTOV. ...Now, I don't know whether it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before - where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was it is possible that this is the gun he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union - I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.
Later in Mamantov's testimony he states that whilst Marina's statement was being taken, not only was Ruth Paine sat next to her, but Paine also made "corrections" of grammar to Marina's affidavit.
The way this case was put together from a procedural perspective is completely mind-boggling.
Once Mamantov was brought into proceedings, at the request of Jack Crichton, you have the Dallas police in an interview room with three people that can speak Russian, none of the Police speak it, Paine and Mamantov know each other, Mamantov knows a great deal about Marina, Mamantov represents the CIA backed White Russians, Ruth Paine represents the CIA, Marina is possibly a double-agent, Mamantov is there to begin implicating the Reds, Paine is there to make sure there are no slip ups in the story.
This was by design and we all know Marina wanted shut of Paine after this. Marina knew what was going on.
Peter Paul Gregory’s Son (Paul) Gets “Russian Lessons” from Lee and Marina
Paul Gregory claiming in his FBI report that he did attend Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth. He knew Oswald attended the school but claims he did not know him there.
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
I also do not believe that Peter Paul Gregory, given his background and affiliations, would not raise his children without the ability to speak Russian. The whole White Russian philosophy was preservation of their culture and history. Which is why I dismiss out of hand that claim that he was receiving Russian lessons from Lee and Marina. The payments he was giving Marina was for something else in my opinion. According to Gregory he visited the Oswald's approximately 48 times between June and November 1962. That would be roughly 80 cents a lesson. No wonder these people couldn't afford new shoes for their kids. They were obviously short changing their expertise.
Something just doesn't add up for me with this relationship and when he is interviewed by the Secret Service in Oklahoma on the 23rd of November he states that he paid Marina $37.00-$40.00 for the lessons and goes into detail about Oswald's relationship with Pavel Golovachev and knows that Pavel's father is a Russian General. He is reinterviewed 5 days later by the FBI on the 28th of November. He now states he paid Marina $35 for the lessons and he can't remember the name of the guy who Oswald was corresponding with in the Soviet Union."
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
No wonder the Secret Service agent wrote on the interview synopsis that Gregory appeared very nervous. Either the FBI were beginning to take items out of his interview or he was suffering from amnesia 5 days after speaking to the SS.
Something is weird about this guy. If he was getting lessons off Lee and Marina, then I don't understand why George Bouhe is on record during his WC testimony claiming that Paul Gregory was also giving Marina English lessons then the story really doesn't add up if we are also led to believe, from the same White Russians, that Oswald was adamant that Marina was not going to learn English:
George BOUHE testimony volume VIII p. 375
“Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, he always come back in Russian and doesn’t want me to speak English to him. This is positively so.”
Well, I said, “Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?” “Well,” she said, “let’s try”. Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of Russian, I know he.went to Marina to pick up some Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that system was to be short-lived."
How Oswald found Peter Paul Gregory and Max Clark.
According to Commission Document 981 the FBI dug a little further into how Oswald came about the names of Peter Gregory and Mrs. Max Clark. Both of them initially claimed that Oswald had gotten their names from somebody at the Fort Worth Public Library. When the FBI re-interviewed them both in May 1964 they became less certain. Gregory stated that it was Oswald who told him someone at the library gave him Gregory's name.
Max Clark again said he thought Oswald got his wife's name from the library but said he would check with his wife. The FBI went back later and Clark said his wife GALI CLARK said that when Oswald called her the first time he had obtained her name from the Texas Employment Commission.
They now had some vague recollection that the person who gave Oswald the name of Max Clark's wife was a person called Smith. Quite convenient timing but even though they remembered the name Smith, and they had relatives who worked for the FW TEC, they made "inquiry" but had not been successful tracking the elusive Smith down.
The FBI had more luck. They had none of the problems the Clark's had in tracking down the elusive Annie Laurie Smith as she went about backing up the Clark's story. Smith claimed that it was her who gave Oswald the name of Gregory and it was one of her colleagues, Mrs. Hall, who overheard the conversation and gave the name of Mrs. Clarke to Oswald. Unfortunately, the FBI didn't interview Mrs. Hall to corroborate Smith's story.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven and doesn't explain why both Gregory and Clark both claimed Oswald got their names from someone at the library and then for Clark to change his story and suddenly remember the name of the person at the TEC who gave a lifeline to both of them even though Gregory still stuck to his story that Oswald told him that someone at the library gave him his name.
Complete crap. IMHO
FBI Report as CD 981 linked below:
http://www.maryferre....do?docId=11377
This thread is about the interpreters used during Marina Oswald’s interviews from the minute the Police turned up in Irving until her last appearance in front of the Warren Commission.
On November 22nd, 1963, the Dallas Police arrived at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, the residence of Ruth Hyde Paine. They were accompanied by members of Irving County Law Enforcement who legally had jurisdiction over the search of the property. Before they could enter Paine’s home they had to wait approximately 40 minutes before Irving County Sheriff’s personnel arrived.
When they got to the door of the property Mrs. Paine greeted them by stating, “Come on in, we’ve been expecting you. Just as soon as we heard what happened we knew you would be out.” About an hour later Ruth Paine’s estranged husband, Michael Paine, turned up at the property. “Just as soon as I heard what building the shots were fired from I knew you would be out. So I came on over to see if I could help in any way” he said.
Obviously, the members of the DPD and Irving team were left with the impression that Marina spoke no English so Ruth Paine stepped up to the plate. She translated the questions from English into Russian and translated the answers from Russian into English. Gus Rose, one of the lead investigators at the Irving property later said in his testimony before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, “I had to assume what Paine told me was true because I couldn’t understand the Russian language.” Paine then, interpreting for Marina, took Rose to the garage and pointed to a blanket as being the place where Oswald apparently kept the rifle. As we all know, the blanket was empty.
Rose also said in his HSCA testimony that when he picked up the empty blanket, “Ruth Paine [then] said something to Marina and Marina had a real shocked look on her face.” The truth of the matter is this; we do not know whether the translating was done accurately by Ruth Paine. We do not know whether the questions posed by Gus Rose were identical to the questions posed by Paine. We do not know whether the answers given by Marina were the answers translated back verbatim by Paine.
We do not know why Marina had a “real shocked” look on her face when Ruth Paine said what she said after Rose picked up the empty blanket. What we do know is that when Marina was taken to the station to complete her first affidavit she claimed that Oswald did not own a rifle in the United States, which is a bit strange seeing as how a couple of hours previous she admitted Oswald’s rifle was in the blanket in the Irving Street garage.
In the affidavit, Marina states, in black and white, that when Officers were at the Paine residence she told them that her husband, “…used to have a rifle to hunt with in Russia.” This is not what was translated for Gus Rose by Ruth Paine. The bottom line of all of this, in the initial hours after the assassination, is that Marina Oswald DID NOT admit, in any legal way, that her husband owned that rifle that was allegedly in Ruth Paine’s garage. She instead admitted that her husband used to own a rifle in Russia.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0423-001.gif (Marina Oswald’s first affidavit)
What credence can we then place upon the accurate translation of Marina Oswald’s words by Ruth Paine? The simple answer is none. We don’t know what was said during the search of that house. There could be many reasons why Marina was “shocked” when Ruth Paine began translating after the rifle blanket was found, especially if Marina’s English was much better than we have been lead to believe.
In actual fact, what credence can we place upon the translating being accurate when she was first taken into police custody? When Marina was taken to the station her words were interpreted by a Dallas resident by the name of Ilya Aleksandrovich Mamantov. Mamantov was a member of the White Russian community. This is the group of Russian emigres that had been so accommodating to Marina Oswald when she first arrived in the United States. The White Russians consisted of people like George Bouhe, Peter Paul Gregory, George DeMohrenschildt, Elena Hall, Anna Meller, Anna Ford and others. Bitterly anti-Communist and in some cases extreme right-wing fascist in their views they were quite closely connected to the Oswald’s, and were heavily involved in their relationship problems during the latter part of 1962 and the early part of 1963. It was this group, post-assassination, that painted the most vivid picture of Oswald as a wife-beating, brooding, psychopathic loser during their interviews and testimony.
How did Mamantov become the translator for Marina immediately after the assassination? Mamantov got the job on the advice of a Mr. Jack Alston Crichton who was an independent oil operator in Dallas. Crichton suggested Mamantov for the job to the Dallas Police even though he had not done any official translating for any company prior to the assassination. What is really interesting about Jack Crichton is that he was a Colonel in the Army Reserve, and was also headed a local Army Intelligence Unit in Dallas. It was on Crichton’s advice, as per the Forrest Sorrels memo below, that Mamantov was hired. For this to happen so quickly suggests that Police Intelligence was linking with Army Intelligence immediately after the assassination.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10787&relPageId=9
So, if the White Russian community had something to hide, post-assassination, what better way to leverage pressure upon Marina than to have one of them in the room with her when she was being questioned about matters relating to her relationship with Oswald and matters pertaining to his activities in the lead-in to the assassination? Remember, Mamantov would not be the only person, who had ties to Lee and Marina Oswald, who would end up being in such close proximity to her whilst in protective custody. Peter Paul Gregory also makes an appearance.
One thing that jumps out of Marina’s first day affidavit is this:
“Today at the Police Station they showed me a rifle. This was like the rifle my husband had. It was a dark gun.”
It was a “dark gun.” Why is this important? It seems insignificant but if one goes to the Secret Service interviews that they conducted with Marina at the Six Flags Inn in Dallas you will find this:
Q. Did Lee purchase any type of gun whilst living in the United States?
A. She says that she knew there was a rifle in the house. She says that she saw the gun in the house in New Orleans and in Dallas.
Q. This gun, was it the rifle or a pistol or just what type of gun? Can she answer that?
A. It was a gun.
Mr. Gregory asked: Can you describe it?
NOTE: Subject said: I cannot describe it because a rifle to me like all rifles.
Gregory translation: She said she cannot describe it. It was sort of a dark rifle just like any other common rifle.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10745&relPageId=24 CD344 – Secret Service Howard Tape Copy of Interview
As you can see, Mr. Peter Paul Gregory, who had links to Oswald when Oswald arrived back in Dallas after his departure from the Soviet Union, makes an appearance as Marina’s translator during this interview and the person who transcribed the tape of the interview actually writes that Gregory mistranslates Marina’s words. Not just any old words, but the words, “Dark rifle.” These are the same words that are in Marina’s original first day affidavit that was interpreted by Ilya Mamantov, who was pushed into the case by a member of Army Intelligence from Dallas.
When the Warren Commission’s Southern contingent got access to Marina away from the likes of Dulles and Ford they, led by Richard Russell, started to turn the thumb screws on Marina concerning her relationship with Oswald, her incredible departure from the Soviet Union, Oswald’s Mexico City trip and the ownership of the rifle and pistol. Unfortunately, they had the White Russian, Peter Paul Gregory, working as a translator again alongside Leon Gopadze from the U.S. Secret Service Office. Similar to the mistranslation that Gregory made in the Six Flags interview concerning the “dark rifle” he also conveniently mistranslates on the same issue during Marina’s Dallas WC testimony (the single asterisk next to Marina’s name denotes that it was Gregory who translated the answer):
Senator RUSSELL. Did you not testify that you thought this was Lee’s rifle that was shown you as the one that shot Connally and the President?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes ; I testified that that was the rifle.
Mr. GOPADZE. No - I’m sorry. As far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes ; that’s right.
Senator RUSSELL. That’s all I asked her. That’s just exactly what I asked her.
Mr. GREGORY. Yes ; that’s correct.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/pdf/WH5_MarinaOswald_3rd.pdf
The reason the correction is made is because Leon Gopadze jumps in and corrects Gregory’s misleading translation concerning the rifle. So, instead of Marina Oswald being on record saying it “…was the rifle”, she is instead on record more accurately stating that it “looked like the one he had”, as per her original affidavit taken on the 22nd.
So, what was going on with these mysterious White Russians penetrating the inner sanctum of the investigation? Why was not a conflict of interest identified concerning Peter Paul Gregory, who was not only a witness to some important aspects of Oswald’s life in ’62 and ’63, but was also invited to translate the interviews and testimony of the most important witness regarding Lee Harvey Oswald? Why was Ilya Mamantov pushed into the case?
Jack Crichton wasn’t just any old Army reservist. He was responsible for actually creating the 488th Army Intelligence Division in Dallas. He was close friends with many members of the Texas power elite including D.H. Byrd and Clint Murchison. After the assassination he actually ran for Texas Governor but was beaten by John Connally.
In addition to Crichton’s influence in getting Ilya Mamantov into the lions den he was also influential prior to the assassination regarding the motorcade. John Simkin, Bill Kelly and others have written extensively on Crichton being involved in managing to place Lieutenant Colonel George Whitmire in the Presidential motorcade pilot car. Whitmire’s name was not on the official SS list of occupants that were due to be in that particular vehicle:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0321a.htm
The official occupants were supposed to be; Jacob L. “Jack” Puterbaugh (Democratic National Committee), Deputy Chief G. L. Lumpkin, and Detectives F. M. Turner and Billy Senkle. Yet, Whitmire was in it. And he managed to get in it due to the influence of Jack Alston Crichton. This would be the same pilot car that stopped in front of the TSBD and had Lumpkin go and issue orders to members of the DPD who were stationed there. The Dallas Police actually had Jack Puterbaugh listed as Secret Service when he was actually a political advance man for the DNC.
So Jack Crichton was not only connected to the Dallas Power elite and military intelligence, he was actually responsible for getting people into the motorcade and then was influential in getting Ilya Mamantov the job as Marina’s interpreter.
So why would he want Mamantov spinning Marina’s words? Ilya Aleksandrovich Mamantov was born in Russia in 1914. He moved to Latvia when he quite young and during the Second World War he was captured with the retreating German Army and ended up in a displaced persons camp. He arrived in the United States in 1951.
Mamantov became a seismologist for the Donnally Geophysical Company between 1951-1955 and worked in many U.S. States before settling into a job at Sun Oil Company, Dallas in 1955.
He was married to a woman called Dorothy Gravitis and Gravitis’ mother was a close friend of Ruth Paine. Although Mamantov claims to have never met Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina but he did know a great deal about the Oswald’s personal lives, both in Russia and in the United States.
Mamantov, in his Warren Commission testimony, was asked by Albert Jenner how he was contacted after the assassination to conduct the interpreting of Marina Oswald. Mamantov initially claimed it was the Dallas Police that contacted him around 5pm on the 22nd of November:
Mr. JENNER. You were called by some official of the city police department?
Mr. MANANTOV. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he’s Lieutenant they call him Chief.
Mr. JENNER. And you repaired then to the Dallas City Police Station?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin – is it important?
Mr. JENNER. I don’t know-you might state what it is.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)- I don’t know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.
Mr. JENNER. And who is he?
Mr. MAMANTOV. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I’m not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.
What we have here is a man connected to the rabidly anti-Communist White Russian community with links to Lee Oswald, Marina Oswald, and Ruth Paine being called to do the translating by a man with links to the Dallas power Elite and military intelligence, who had influence over the occupants of the pilot car, and followed up by a call from a man who was in the motorcade pilot car.
At the start of Mamantov’s testimony he says the following when asked about signing his deposition:
Mr. MAMANTOV. It doesn’t matter-what the proper procedure is - I would like to read those - it’s always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you.
Mamantov knew explicitly that changing single words changes meaning and when the “dark gun” element is written in Marina’s original affidavit and the fact that Oswald owned a similar rifle in Russia one begins to get the feeling that the link between the assassination and the Soviet Union has officially started and would be brought to bear as pressure on Marina over the next few months.
To then find Peter Paul Gregory inserting the phrase, “It was sort of a dark rifle…” into Marina’s Secret Service interview at Six Flags that was noted by the person who typed up the transcript of the verbal interview as being in error because Marina actually said, “I cannot describe it because a rifle to me like all rifles” then the pattern of trying to implicate the Soviets can be seen.
On November 23rd, 1963 Mamantov was interviewed by the FBI. In his statement he begins implicating George DeMohrenschildt as being a communist and seemed to have quite a few details concerning DeMohrenshildt’s travels around the world. He claims that he and other members of the White Russian community suspected that DeMohrenschildt was responsible for subversive activities within the United States.
http://www.maryferre...sPageId=1005931
After Mamantov had been used as an interpreter on the 22nd and 23rd of November, 1963 he then made an effort to link the assassination to the Soviet Union with the U.S. media. On December 5th he was interviewed by KRLD announcer Warren Fulks, in the KRLD studios. In that interview he not only accused Oswald of being linked to the Soviet Union and killed JFK on their behalf in furtherance of the Communist ideology, but he also implicated Jack Ruby as being part of the communist “underground conspiracy” and he killed Oswald to shut him up. Mamantov also explicitly states that Oswald yelling that he wanted to see “JACK ABT [sic]” was a code call to Jack Ruby.
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=703571 (FBI report on Mamantov’s KRLD interview)
In August 1977 the Soviet newspaper Nedelya printed a news story. It was entitled “Kto vy, doktor Mamantov?” (Who are you, Doctor Mamantov?) The news story was outing Ilya Mamantov as working for the CIA. In his capacity as a consultant on the USSR and Eastern Europe for Lake International Travel he was responsible for tours of the Soviet Union with students from the United States. Somebody who came into contact with him in Moscow, Yelena Samuilovna Pyatetskana, blew the whistle on him to the KGB after he tried to tap her up for information “damaging to the USSR.”
http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=894389
In the same article a “friend” of Mamantov, US citizen Natalya Aleksandrovna Letter was also “outed” as a CIA agent. It is claimed that she is a daughter of Nazi war criminal and was looking for a variety of information whilst she was in the Soviet Union with Mamantov.
There are certain researchers out there that ask us to believe specific things that Marina said during her various interrogations and depositions. They pick and choose what they need in supporting their own pet theories. They then ignore the things that are inconvenient to their beliefs. One such researcher places great emphasis on the Six Flags Secret Service interviews but fails to tell his readers that it was Peter Paul Gregory that did the interpreting and that he was found out on many occasions of, what I believe, are purposeful mistranslations. He did this not only in the Secret Service interviews but also in Marina’s Warren Commission testimony numerous times. We then add this to Ilya Mamatov’s suspected CIA background, his relationship with members of Army Intelligence and his vociferous attempts to smear the Soviet Union and implicate them in the assassination and the whole situation takes on a very suspect nature.
Knowing that the White Russian community had Marina surrounded post assassination and their obvious ties to U.S. Intelligence, especially the CIA, and we begin to understand the phrase from Peter Paul Gregory during one of Marina’s Six Flag’s interrogations a whole lot more, when in the SS report of the interview this appears;
“…she was told for her own sake and her children’s sake to tell the truth during all of this investigation which would help her in the long run, and particularly with her desire to remain in the United States.”
http://www.maryferre...3&relPageId=139
The White Russians had surrounded Marina as soon as she arrived on U.S. soil, and they were still there when she in protective custody as well as when she was under oath.
Assorted comments:
http://www.maryferre...74&relPageId=31
"Mr. Mamantov said on one occasion he warned a mutual acquaintance, in 1962, against associating with DeMohrenshildt. A couple of days later, DeMohrenschildt called Mamantov and said, "A good friend of mine told me that you said I was a communist. If I hear any more statements of this nature, I will come over and beat the hell out of you."
On Marina’s English Language Capabilities
I don't think there is any doubt that she Marina had quite a bit of competence when it came to speaking and understanding English. Robert Webster claimed she was fluent in English. Marguerite claimed her English was good and she understood others speaking English. Ilya Mamantov is on record as believing that she could not have qualified as a pharmacist at the age of 21 in the Soviet Union and was obviously hinting at the fact that she was more than likely schooled in something else.
As I pointed out to David Lifton on the "Oswald’s Fake Bus RIde" thread, the building manager at the Elsbeth apartments, M. F. Tobias Snr., said that Marina's English was enough to understand and be understood:
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak with Marina?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes ; and she was au awful nice girl.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did she uuderstand you when you spoke to her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was - would come out in her front yard - I sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring, the baby out and, of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she could, because
he didn’t want her to anyway.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn’t want her to learn it.
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She said that much in English so that you would understand it?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That’s quite a bit of English.
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I know. That’s what, I’m trying to tell you - she knew more English than she let on she did.
Mr. JENNER. That’s of interest to us - she was able to communicate that whole idea to you in English?
Mr. TOBIAS. That’s right.
The White Russian community are up to their neck in this thing and most people interested in the case seem to focus far too much attention onto George DeMohrenshildt. I'm convinced that George was as much of a pawn as Oswald was and whether he found a way out because he sensed something was up or he was taken off Oswald's case for some other reason is anyone's guess but I don't believe for a second he was directly involved in the plot but was certainly forced to participate in the cover-up after the fact.
Just in case anyone is interested in the authenticity of Peter Paul Gregory's translating during Marina's deposition in front of Senator Russell and Hale Boggs have a read of this:
Mr. RANKIN. Now, When you testified before the Commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the Minsk factory, do you recall that?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. YOU said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. Do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* **
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don’t think I testified to that.
Mr. RANKIN. You don’t recall testifying to that?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. I testified that he was a - slesar.
Mr. GREGORY. Off the record, please?
She names a trade and that Russian word stands for locksmith, but I know that he was not a locksmith, I mean, from the description of work that he was doing. He was working at a factory where he was assembling details for metallic details. He was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers.
Mr. RANKIN. He told the FBI at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them. Mr. Gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know?
Mr. GREGORY. No ; she’s telling me, but Mrs. Oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the Russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r’.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, will you describe, Mrs. Oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. Tell us what he did?*
*Mrs. OSWALD. I have never been at the plant where Lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that Lee gave me--
Mr. RANKIN. Tell us that?* **
*Mrs. OSWALD. He was grinding details detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe. Perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. He may have actually done that kind of work, but I know nothing about that.
It's there for all to see. Gregory is jumping in and trying to influence the testimony concerning Oswald's work in Minsk. This job that is being discussed more accurately describes the work of Robert Webster. And as we all know Marina allegedly told Katya Ford (another of the White Russian community) that Lee went to Russia with an "exhibition." (CD5., p. 259) And again, we know it was Webster that went to Moscow to attend an exhibition with RAND Corporation.
http://www.maryferre...6&relPageId=265
Ruth Paine Makes Corrections to Marina’s Police Statement
Mr. MAMANTOV. ...Now, I don't know whether it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before - where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.
Mr. JENNER. And what was her response?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Her response was it is possible that this is the gun he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union - I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.
Later in Mamantov's testimony he states that whilst Marina's statement was being taken, not only was Ruth Paine sat next to her, but Paine also made "corrections" of grammar to Marina's affidavit.
The way this case was put together from a procedural perspective is completely mind-boggling.
Once Mamantov was brought into proceedings, at the request of Jack Crichton, you have the Dallas police in an interview room with three people that can speak Russian, none of the Police speak it, Paine and Mamantov know each other, Mamantov knows a great deal about Marina, Mamantov represents the CIA backed White Russians, Ruth Paine represents the CIA, Marina is possibly a double-agent, Mamantov is there to begin implicating the Reds, Paine is there to make sure there are no slip ups in the story.
This was by design and we all know Marina wanted shut of Paine after this. Marina knew what was going on.
Peter Paul Gregory’s Son (Paul) Gets “Russian Lessons” from Lee and Marina
Paul Gregory claiming in his FBI report that he did attend Arlington Heights High School in Fort Worth. He knew Oswald attended the school but claims he did not know him there.
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
I also do not believe that Peter Paul Gregory, given his background and affiliations, would not raise his children without the ability to speak Russian. The whole White Russian philosophy was preservation of their culture and history. Which is why I dismiss out of hand that claim that he was receiving Russian lessons from Lee and Marina. The payments he was giving Marina was for something else in my opinion. According to Gregory he visited the Oswald's approximately 48 times between June and November 1962. That would be roughly 80 cents a lesson. No wonder these people couldn't afford new shoes for their kids. They were obviously short changing their expertise.
Something just doesn't add up for me with this relationship and when he is interviewed by the Secret Service in Oklahoma on the 23rd of November he states that he paid Marina $37.00-$40.00 for the lessons and goes into detail about Oswald's relationship with Pavel Golovachev and knows that Pavel's father is a Russian General. He is reinterviewed 5 days later by the FBI on the 28th of November. He now states he paid Marina $35 for the lessons and he can't remember the name of the guy who Oswald was corresponding with in the Soviet Union."
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
http://contentdm.bay...PTR=41572&REC=1
No wonder the Secret Service agent wrote on the interview synopsis that Gregory appeared very nervous. Either the FBI were beginning to take items out of his interview or he was suffering from amnesia 5 days after speaking to the SS.
Something is weird about this guy. If he was getting lessons off Lee and Marina, then I don't understand why George Bouhe is on record during his WC testimony claiming that Paul Gregory was also giving Marina English lessons then the story really doesn't add up if we are also led to believe, from the same White Russians, that Oswald was adamant that Marina was not going to learn English:
George BOUHE testimony volume VIII p. 375
“Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, he always come back in Russian and doesn’t want me to speak English to him. This is positively so.”
Well, I said, “Will he object if I teach you on the side, so to speak?” “Well,” she said, “let’s try”. Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of Russian, I know he.went to Marina to pick up some Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that system was to be short-lived."
How Oswald found Peter Paul Gregory and Max Clark.
According to Commission Document 981 the FBI dug a little further into how Oswald came about the names of Peter Gregory and Mrs. Max Clark. Both of them initially claimed that Oswald had gotten their names from somebody at the Fort Worth Public Library. When the FBI re-interviewed them both in May 1964 they became less certain. Gregory stated that it was Oswald who told him someone at the library gave him Gregory's name.
Max Clark again said he thought Oswald got his wife's name from the library but said he would check with his wife. The FBI went back later and Clark said his wife GALI CLARK said that when Oswald called her the first time he had obtained her name from the Texas Employment Commission.
They now had some vague recollection that the person who gave Oswald the name of Max Clark's wife was a person called Smith. Quite convenient timing but even though they remembered the name Smith, and they had relatives who worked for the FW TEC, they made "inquiry" but had not been successful tracking the elusive Smith down.
The FBI had more luck. They had none of the problems the Clark's had in tracking down the elusive Annie Laurie Smith as she went about backing up the Clark's story. Smith claimed that it was her who gave Oswald the name of Gregory and it was one of her colleagues, Mrs. Hall, who overheard the conversation and gave the name of Mrs. Clarke to Oswald. Unfortunately, the FBI didn't interview Mrs. Hall to corroborate Smith's story.
The whole thing stinks to high heaven and doesn't explain why both Gregory and Clark both claimed Oswald got their names from someone at the library and then for Clark to change his story and suddenly remember the name of the person at the TEC who gave a lifeline to both of them even though Gregory still stuck to his story that Oswald told him that someone at the library gave him his name.
Complete crap. IMHO
FBI Report as CD 981 linked below:
http://www.maryferre....do?docId=11377
- GuestGuest
Re: Lost in Translation
Sat 30 Nov 2013, 3:12 am
Just working through the above replacing the links as they did not work after copying it across.
Albert Rossi- Posts : 417
Join date : 2013-08-29
Age : 69
Location : Naperville, IL USA
Re: Lost in Translation
Sat 30 Nov 2013, 4:10 am
Nice work pulling all of this together, Lee. Really provocative. The connections of these people with both CIA and Army Intel form an important thread in the story. In fact, in his "farewell" address at the Wecht conference in Pittsburgh, Walt Brown pointed precisely to this nexus (including Whitmire and Mamantov) as providing the leads he would follow out further, where he would go if he were continuing his own research. Add to that the Bouhe connection to that strange package containing the brown paper wrapper that lay around the post office "undiscovered" for 12 days. And wasn't Bouhe Jack Ruby's neighbor?
- GuestGuest
Re: Lost in Translation
Sat 30 Nov 2013, 11:44 pm
No problem, Albert. The White Russians are incredibly important in all this because of the web they spun across Dallas. Both they and their friends reach into Oswald's life in so many different areas. Sometimes he knew their connection and sometimes he didn't. One example of not knowing was his dealings with Helen Cunningham who worked for the Texas Employment Commission and had much oversight and involvement in his paperwork. It should therefore come as no surprise that there are a host of issues concerning them.
There is no doubt in my mind anymore that the TSBD job was set up for Oswald through the TEC.
Yes, Bouhe lived in the same apartment complex as Jack and they shared a swimming pool.
There is no doubt in my mind anymore that the TSBD job was set up for Oswald through the TEC.
Yes, Bouhe lived in the same apartment complex as Jack and they shared a swimming pool.
- GuestGuest
Re: Lost in Translation
Tue 03 Dec 2013, 6:49 pm
It appears it goes back to Wilson, Col. House, and Lansing. Bouhe and Mamantov were sponsored by the Russians sponsored by the US government from 1917 throught the middle 30's.
Read the obituary of Serge Ughet carefully.... I am tired of pointing out that there are too many coincidences.
Read the obituary of Serge Ughet carefully.... I am tired of pointing out that there are too many coincidences.
SERGE UGHET, 78, CZARIST OFFICIAL; Imperial Russia's Last...
New York Times - May 10, 1963
ALEXANDER DANILOFF
New York Times - Oct 31, 1960
Must have been rather tight quarters.....
48 Littleworth Ln, Sea Cliff, NY 11579 - Zillow
http://www.zillow.com › New York › Sea Cliff › 11579
View pictures, Zestimate value, tax data for the , 2.0 bath, 1313 sqft home at 48 Littleworth Ln.
Year Built:1924 Last sold for $235000 in 1994.
In 1939, Alexander Daniloff was one of two sponsors on the naturalization application of George Bouhe.
Pail Klebnikov's (Khlebnikoff) father, George and his best man, Prince George Vassiltchikov founded the instantaneous translation department at the United Nations in 1946, after perfecting the technology and techniques at the Nuremberg trials.
The two men described in the CIA document in my last post, Wubriny-1 and Wusaline, were Thomas J. Devine and his partner, John Train. Why would the CIA create documents giving the impression that neither of these CIA assets had any prior awareness of DeMohrenschildt, just weeks after the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald had attempted to shoot Gen. Edwin Walker?
August, 1951 :http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/mamantov.htm
..........
Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time did that work extend?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of 1955, when I took my present job.
Mr. JENNER. Let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Lion Match Co.
Mr. JENNER. L-y-o-n [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. L-i-o-n [spelling] Match Co. in New York.
Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you at103
least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced person and I didn't speak English enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Bakhmeteff
America's Secret War Against Bolshevism: U.S. Intervention ... - Page 61
books.google.com/books?isbn=0807849588
David S. Foglesong - 2001 - Preview - More editions
but that the funds already advanced could be used to pay for supplies for which the Provisional Government had contracted, as long as he was recognized as the legal Russian ambassador. In return for this continuing diplomatic recognition, Polk asked for only one thing — that the embassy get American approval prior to requesting the bank to make payments on specific contracts. Bakhmeteff immediately accepted this condition. He agreed with Polk that each week the financial attache* of the Russian embassy, Serge Ughet, "would submit a list of the payments which we were intending to make ... so that the Treasury would be informed."57
The details of the new arrangement were worked out in the following days. By December 5, Ughet and lawyers for the National City Bank concluded an agreement regarding disbursements. Subsequently, payments were made in accordance with the procedure Polk and Bakhmeteff had sketched. Ughet would submit a list of payments; the bank would telephone the Treasury and State Departments for approval; the administration would almost always authorize the disbursements; the bank would then release the requested funds and send Leffingwell a letter of confirmation. Thus, the U.S. government had full control over the funds in the embassy's accounts. As Polk later testified before Congress, "Since December 1917, . . . every payment of any size was made with the knowledge of this Government."58 For some in the administration, particularly at the Treasury Department, the main reason for
allowing the Russian embassy to continue drawing on U.S. credits was to protect American companies from losses on contracts with the former
Provisional Government. However, others realized early on that if the embassy were able to continue purchasing supplies, they could be sent to anti-Bolshevik forces in Russia who were loyal to the Allies.59 The White House shared the State Department's basic inclination against diplomatic relations with the Bolsheviks and its sympathy with the idea of supporting anti-Bolshevik Russians. At a cabinet meeting on November 27, the president read a speech by Trotsky, who made the insulting assertion that America intervened in the Great War when "the finance capitalists sent an ultimatum....
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Although Bakhmeteff worried that American leaders' fear of "the specter" of Russian reactionaries would still delay intervention, by July 8 he was able to report that Wilson was finally translating his vague sympathy into concrete action. A week later, as Wilson approved the sending of U.S. troops to Russia, the president explained that that was "in the interest of what the Russian people themselves desire." Bakhmeteff's tireless efforts contributed to that view, and he was pleased by that application of the policy of standing by Russia. Since he had succeeded in preserving political and financial relations with the Wilson administration, as American
soldiers moved toward Russia the Russian embassy in Washington was able to begin sending supplies to anti-Bolshevik forces in Siberia." Although Wilson and many of his advisors lost faith in leaders of the defunct Provisional Government because of their "blunder and ineptitude,"8o State Department officials retained their high regard for Ambassador Bakhmeteff. After the Bolshevik Revolution, a common anti- Bolshevism cemented a bond between Lansing and Bakhmeteff. The secretary of state frequently cited Bakhmeteff 's views, particularly in opposing the "breaking up" of Russia "into separate states."81 In his memoirs, Lansing glowingly reviewed how Bakhmeteff "conducted himself and the affairs of his Embassy with tact and discretion, so that when he gave up the post ... he retained the respect and good will of the numerous friends ......
....Although American advisors in France were annoyed by the uncompromising arrogance and reactionary views of other Russian representatives, they enjoyed working with Bakhmeteff, whom they found more practical and liberal. In fact, some Americans considered Bakhmeteff one of "the 'lions' attending the conference" at Paris. Besides meeting regularly with American officials such as Vance McCormick, head of the War Trade Board, Bakhmeteff lunched and dined with them. This gave him numerous opportunities to press his views on Western policy toward the Russian Civil War and to work with Wilson administration officials to aid anti- Bolshevik forces.85 To keep funds and supplies flowing to White armies, the
Boris Alexandrovich Bakhmeteff (Russian: Борис Александрович Бахметев) (also spelled Bakhmetieff or Bakhmetev) (1880- July 21, 1951)[1] was an engineer, businessman, professor of Civil Engineering at Columbia University and the only ambassador of the Russian Provisional Government to the United States.[2] He was unrelated to his predecessor as ambassador, George Bakhmeteff.[3] His wife Helen died in 1921.[4] His position as ambassador was recognized by the US government until his resignation in June 1922,[5] when he established the Lion Match Company with other Russian immigrants.[2] He introduced the concept of specific energy in hydraulics in his thesis and book Hydraulics of Open Channels.[6] In 1947 he received the Norman Medal of the American Society of Civil Engineers.
The Russian archives and a professorship of Russian at Columbia are named after him, as is a Harvard research fellowship in hydraulics.
Bakhmeteff's former residence in Washington, D.C.
Boris Bakhmeteff was also on the Board of Directors for the Tolstoy Foundation Center in Valley Cottage, New York.
https://casetext.com/case/golbert-v-renegotiation-board-2/
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The sale of Lion to Ozone was consummated in February 1950. Petitioner received a commission on the sale, from Greenbaum, in the amount of $1,800.
During 1952, petitioner devoted his full time to acting as sales representative for Ozone, under the oral agreement made between petitioner and Ozone in January 1950. He obtained contracts for Ozone with various aircraft manufacturing companies, for manufacture of component parts of aircraft produced by such companies under contracts with the United States Air Force. He obtained approximately 95 per cent of the business received by Ozone during 1952. Most of Ozone's business was done with two companies, Republic Aircraft and Sikorsky Aircraft.
During 1952, petitioner was in contact with buyers and other officials of aircraft companies with which Ozone did business.....
- Mark A. O'Blazney
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Join date : 2013-10-03
Re: Lost in Translation
Wed 04 Dec 2013, 9:36 pm
Good one, Tom. Mamantov's thread has been resurrected 'over there'. And all these deathbed confessions are killing me, Oz.
greg_parkerAdmin- Posts : 8368
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Age : 66
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Re: Lost in Translation
Sun 29 Nov 2020, 11:53 am
a bump for an extremely important thread.
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Mick_Purdy- Posts : 2426
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Re: Lost in Translation
Sun 29 Nov 2020, 2:48 pm
Agreed, thanks Greg.
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