Norman's HSCA interview: Williams Did Not Go to the 6th Floor

Norman: "...But along about the time the President was coming, then James Jarman and Bonnie Ray Williams and myself, we got our lunches and we decided to go upstairs to sit in the window because we could get a better view of the motorcade. And after we did that, I brought my lunch from home and I can't recall if whether Jarman brought his or not, but I know Williams bought some chicken off one of those catering services."

Maxwell: "Bonnie Ray went out and bought some chicken?"

Norman: "Right, and we went upstairs and pull up some cartons up by the window, so we could sit down and look out the window."

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Maxwell: "To go back a little bit; when you decided to go upstairs to the 5th floor, how did you go upstairs?

Norman: "We used the freight elevator."

Maxwell: "The freight elevator. That was yourself, Jarman and Williams?"

Norman: "Right."

http://reopenkennedycase.weebly.com/richard-gilbride-hsca-collection.html

Norman's original story is different in one element: he said then that he had eaten lunch prior to going up to the 5th. The crucial element was however, still the same - Bonnie Ray Williams had gone directly to the 5th floor with Jaman and himself.

"About 12:15 P.M. on this same date, after I had eaten my lunch, I went to the fifth floor of the building to watch the parade of the President pass the building. Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me. We took a position in the south-east corner of the building on the fifth floor."

This was taken by the Secret Service Dec 4.

But then the FBI stepped in. Special Agents Carter and Griffin interviewed Norman on Jan 8, '64. They claim Norman Stated that that it was only himself and Jarman who went upstairs and that Williams joined them. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=17

Jarman's interview with Carter and Griffin however comports with Norman's Secret Service and HSCA version insofar as Williams' goes: "He said that he and the other two boys ate lunch on the first floor around 12:00 noon and shortly afterwards went to the 5th floor..."
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=15

Meanwhile Williams apparently gave Carter and Griffin his official WC version. He ate his lunch up on the 6th...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10730&relPageId=16

Completely backflipping on his original story given 22/11... which was "...we went downstairs. We rode the elevator to the 1st floor and got our lunches. I went back up on the 5th floor with a fellow called Hank and Junior I don't know his last name."

No mention of going to the 6th...

It appears Williams bought his chicken from the catering truck and went directly to the 5th floor at lunch time with Norman and Jarman where he ate this lunch - the bones of which ended up on the 6th floor and being attributed to a cool calculating professional sniper.

Alyea was telling the truth when he claimed the cops moved them.

Interesting stuff Greg - I read through the testimonies of both Norman and Jarman and they both seem to be in conflict in a number of of areas with what they told the WC - Hmmm...13-14 years later and memory playing tricks or is this their "true" memory?

That's an exciting post, Greg... you've outlined the critical points which show Williams' account- of taking the east elevator up solo about noontime- was a fabrication. It's satisfying to see this contention strengthened as a result of the new HSCA material.

It's high time researchers started believing Tom Alyea, rather than the tall pile of garbage spewn by the "official story"; here's what he told Dallas Times-Herald reporter Connie Kritzberg in 1994:

"Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box that was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location and position of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements...

...Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that... these officers... heard... WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade of boxes at the window. I shot close-ups of this entire area.

The most outstanding puzzle as to why these officers are sticking to this story is the fact that they claim to have found the sniper's location, then left the building, as they said, to join the investigators at the Tippit shooting location. I have never seen a report that indicates they attempted to use any telephone in the building in an attempt to notify other investigators. They just left the scene to check another assignment, and by chance ran into Captain Fritz coming in the front door.

They claim to have placed a detective at the location but they did not relay their finding to any other officer before they left the building. I presume that the alleged detective left at the scene was instructed to stand there until someone else stumbled upon the scene, or they found time to report it after investigating the Tippit scene. Sorry, it doesn't wash."

ianlloyd wrote:Interesting stuff Greg - I read through the testimonies of both Norman and Jarman and they both seem to be in conflict in a number of of areas with what they told the WC - Hmmm...13-14 years later and memory playing tricks or is this their "true" memory?

Ian, I might have considered it just memory lapses had it not been for the fact that both Norman and Williams originally stated that all three of them went straight to the 5th floor together.

Jarman never mentioned going upstairs at all in his original statement - his chrono stopped prior to that...

That's an exciting post, Greg... you've outlined the critical points which show Williams' account- of taking the east elevator up solo about noontime- was a fabrication. It's satisfying to see this contention strengthened as a result of the new HSCA material.

What it also highlights is the inpeptitude of the HSCA investigators. They seemed almost totally unfamiliar with the records they should have been seeking to clarify. Williams lunchtime location is a prime example. They were totally oblivious to the importance of the 5th vs 6th floor for Williams' repast.

And don't fret about the introduction of a 4th individual up on the 5th. Tain't nuthin' to worry about...(apparently!)

From Jarman's HSCA interview: "...and arround about 12:00 we took off for lunch and me and a couple of friends of mine went outside--Early Norman, Dana White and myself and we were standing on the corner and the motorcade was a little bit [late] arriving and around about 11:20, 11:25 we went up to the 5th floor... and while we were there, a couple of minutes later, another one of the workers joine us which was Barnaray [sic] Williams."

So who the hell was Dana White???

greg

What I hear when I listen to the tape is:

"Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray and myself"

Jarman sounds very sleepy- I'm fairly sure that at the time of this interview, 3:40 PM, he was still in his PJs

The HSCA transcriber had remembered learning that JFK was assassinated from her 7th grade social studies class; Blakey was wowed by her credentials & hired her on the spot.

Harold & Early Norman were lookalikes; Bonnie Ray Williams called himself Barnaray on his refill visits to the liquor store.

On November 23rd Williams first alleged to Dallas FBI agents Bardwell Odum and Will Griffin that he had gone up to the 6th floor for lunch (WCD 330):
"At approximately 12 noon, Williams went back upstairs in the elevator to the sixth floor with his lunch. He stayed on that floor only about three minutes..."

On November 22nd about 1:00 PM Williams was placed in a squad car with Danny Arce and Bill Shelley; they were driven to DPD HQ by C.W. Brown & B.L. Senkel.
Williams gave an affidavit (with no mention of anything about being up on the 6th floor at lunch) in the Homicide Office.

We know today (99% of researchers- myself included- didn't "get it"- bravo to Greg for sticking to his guns) that Williams' solo east-elevator ride is a myth.
There's no other way to reconcile the HSCA interviews of Norman ("James Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams and myself, we got our lunches and decided to go upstairs... we used the freight elevator") Jarman ("[Harold] Norman, Dana White [Barnaray ] and myself and we were standing on the corner... around about 11:20, 11:25 we went up to the 5th floor..."), Norman's Dec. 4th SS affidavit (Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, who also worked at this building went with me...) and Alyea's firm memory ("There definitely were no chicken bones at or near the barricade at the window. I shot close-ups of this entire area.")

The point being that Williams embellished his story on Saturday, November 23rd, and a reasonable assumption is that he did this in order to help cover up the DPD's behavior near the beginning of the 6th floor search: As Alyea suspected, somebody moved the chicken from the 5th floor to the 6th. And it sure seems that somebody well aware of this DPD-behavior problem personally requested of Williams that he change his story.

Whoever moved the chicken was in on the plan to frame Oswald, and in on the plot to kill Kennedy.

A related footnote is that Jarman, who returned home after leaving the Depository about 2:15-2:30, gave the DPD an affidavit on November 23rd. But its content deals essentially with his Oswald-related interactions that morning, up until lunch, and gives no mention of him being up on the 5th floor and being an assassination witness.

There are 5 pages (WCH III 169-173) concerning Barnaray's Magical Mystery Tour up to the 6th and down to the 5th in his WC testimony.

*

One thing that's puzzling me is that Deputy Sheriffs Luke Mooney, Roger Craig, A.D. McCurley & Harry Weatherford, motorcycle officers Clyde Haygood & E.D. Brewer, DPD Sgt. Gerald Hill & Homicide detective Leslie Montgomery submitted reports and/or testified about finding chicken bones at the sniper's nest.

Mooney discovered the sniper's nest about 1:06 and Hill yelled the news out the window.

Alyea pretty obviously arrived at the sniper's nest after Mooney & Hill, and it seems evident that these lawmen testified falsely, giving the impression that the chicken was there at the nest when they first arrived. (Mooney observed "one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right"; Hill noted that "on top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a large chicken bone...")

Just when might the chicken have been placed at the sniper's nest? Evidently this occurred after Alyea & Fritz had left the nest, proceeding toward the site of the rifle discovery.

*

A further excerpt from Connie Kritzberg's interview of Alyea: "I was the first newsman into the building and the only newsman to accompany the search team as they went from floor to floor searching for the person who fired the shots. At this time, we did not know the President had been hit, I rushed in with a group of plainclothesmen and a few uniformed officers...

[I followed] the search team that was on its way to the rear elevator, to start the floor by floor search. We searched every floor, all the way to the roof. The gunman could still have been in the building. Finding nothing they started back down. After approximately 18 minutes, they were joined by Captain Fritz, who had first gone to Parkland Hospital...

Sounds to me that Alyea made it inside by about 12:40

*

Another question remaining to be answered is- who took the east elevator up to the 5th? With Williams erased from this equation- and remembering that Jarman & Norman recalled the east elevator already being up when they re-entered the warehouse from the back dock- and considering that the evidence is favorable that Oswald was already down by this time, and had a 12:15 encounter with Carolyn Arnold in the 2nd-floor lunchroom- the likeliest candidate for bringing the east elevator up seems to be Jack Dougherty.
And even a co-worker like Eddie Piper, or even a surprise guest or two.

Guests might have found this elevator, the closest to the dock, a rather convenient method for attending a get-together on the 6th.

And even a co-worker like Eddie Piper, or even a surprise guest or two.

JD may have played some type of lookout role, Richard, but we already have Piper up there with UNSUB

From the Eddie Piper thread....
reported around the country that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade."

Just some top-of-my-head thoughts, without consulting anything- correct me on any errors- but:

I think the prime candidate for moving the chicken from the 5th to the 6th is Homicide detective Marvin Johnson. He's the detective who, according to fellow detective Leslie Montgomery, safeguarded the chicken at the sniper's nest- protected the crime scene.

This had to have lasted a good solid hour, as numerous lawmen vacated the building to head to Tippit's murder scene; Montgomery & Johnson emerged at 2:27 PM on the front steps; Montgomery with the paper bag, Johnson with the chicken "poke" (lunch bag), Dr. Pepper bottle & empty pack of Viceroy cigarettes. None of Johnson's 3 items of evidence were investigated further; I think Lt. Carl Day hung onto the chicken for a couple weeks before tossing it out; the Dr. Pepper bottle wasn't checked for fingerprints; and the Viceroys disappeared.

I would imagine that the Dr. Pepper initially belonged to Bonnie Ray Williams and was brought from the 5th to the 6th and placed alongside the handcart, with the poke on the floor, and a couple pieces of chicken brought to the sniper's nest. So they wouldn't want the pop bottle to be checked for telltale prints.

Johnson & Montgomery were tardy in their arrival on the 6th, following behind Fritz I think, so it's facile to picture Johnson simply carrying the chicken poke up with him then. It'd be pretty easy to carry it hidden under a suitcoat flap. If it was placed on the sniper's nest during the rifle discovery, for example, all of the lawmen who witnessed chicken there might have seen it from about 1:20 onwards.

I can't imagine Johnson pulling this off without Fritz's directive to do so.

Nor am I totally clear as to why this may have been done- apparently to give the patsy a colder heart - cool & calculating persona for the media .

I don't see how Fritz could have had foreknowledge of chicken on the 5th- bringing it upstairs was a spur of the moment thing, and blends with the arrogance/contempt/cavalierness he displayed when he picked up the 3 shells in front of Alyea and tossed them back on the sniper's nest floor.

i.e. "You're in Dallas, boy, and don't you forgit it"

Mate yeah the Williams chicken thing has bothered me and I never knew why.
Thats until now.

When are you going to organise all your mythbusting into a complete compendium?
Im deeply interested in the TSBD as a result of your digging. I actually wanna do a piece (more like an article) called 'Oswald has left the building'. An Aussie Tale.

I gave up on it as a black hole while back (more fool me).

I also agree with you about Alyeas testimony as well.

Checking into some facts (finally) it doesn't appear that Marvin Johnson was the chicken-mover; his testimony & police report both say he was eating lunch at a cafe, arrived at the TSBD about 1:00 and went straight to the 6th. I have no qualms with seeing Johnson in on the chicken coverup, but would like to find out just which officers were with Fritz & Alyea on the 5th floor.

Undergoing a sea-change lately in my understanding of actual events in the Depository: the case seems really solid that Williams didn't take his 6th-floor elevator ride, and with Sean Murphy's stellar presentation at Lancer right now, must admit I'm pretty well firmly convinced the lunchroom encounter didn't happen.
And, Shields' HSCA interview indicates that Givens usually worked with him at the Houston St. warehouse, & they were habitual lunch buddies. So,
with Givens' 11/22 DPD affidavit:

"I worked on the 6th floor today until about 11:30 am. Then I went downstairs and into the bathroom. At twelve o'clock I took my lunch period."

And 11/22 FBI interview:

"GIVENS worked on the sixth floor of the building until about 11:30 A.M. when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor where he used the restroom about 11:35 or 11:40 A.M. GIVENS then walked around on the first floor until 12 o'clock noon, at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood for several minutes..."

It sounds to me that Givens split off from the floor-layers early and hung out downstairs, thinking of his regular lunch rendevous with Shields.

So Sylvia Meagher's hunch was correct after all. The cigarette trip is a myth.

And that's 3 rather huge detours lately in my perception on Depository events. I'd have to say that right now it doesn't seem Givens had foreknowledge of the assassination, but was railroaded soon after (with a huge snow job by the time of his testimony) into supporting the DPD coverup.

I see Jarman & Williams less suspiciously than I recently thought; more or less entangled in the plot/coverup as it actually happens; Norman however I still see as the central influencer among those 3, and with foreknowledge.

Lovelady & Shelley still as a couple of liars, perhaps not lying exactly the way I recently thought- the case seems pretty strong to me that Oswald was in/at the front lobby only 30 seconds after the shots.

Truly appears more sinister than ever- and the TSBD management too. Jack Cason told the FBI in those March 1964 general-canvas-of-employee interviews that he left at 12:10- but in his Dec. 2 1963 interview with the Secret Service, he "left the building at about 11:00 A.M. to meet some friends who were arriving in town to attend his daughter's wedding scheduled for November 23" (WCD 87 p. 2)

And Ochus Campbell tells William Weston in a 1994 phone call, which Campbell then abruptly ended, that the company had moved into the building about 5 years earlier- Weston found that contradicted phone & city directories, and his interviews of Sexton Grocery employees- who moved out in November 1961 and said the building was then vacant for a year.

Plus Truly's 11/22 interview with the FBI's Nat Pinkston says the book company "has occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for only a few months."

The Depository was overflowing with book cartons, stocking way beyond business needs- it sure looks to me like a setup.

I need a firmer grasp on police identities & activities during the first half-hour of the search: you've got ATF agents about 12:35 out front with Sawyer; Mooney, Vickers & Webster entering the rear, roughly 12:37; Barnett & Smith posted out front, and I think Smith is the one who accompanied Sawyer up the passenger elevator to the 4th (my guess is with Lovelady, who told them he was bringing them up to the 5th where the shots came from); Harkness brings Euins to the front and heads around back about 12:36 & runs into some "Secret Service" guy ; and out front there's the main crew, starring Gerald Hill and who knows who else.

So it's probably several moons' worth of scrutiny to get a good bead on this.

Cheers!

By the way, Seamus, I hope your "Oswald Has Left The Building" article gets jotted down sometime- even a short probative discussion would be fresh & I'm sure received well.

ELVIS
LIVES

I think I got 'im- Homicide detective Richard M. Sims

Fritz, Sims & Elmer Boyd were assigned to the Trade Mart; about 12:40 they drove to Parkland, and were ordered from there to the TSBD, which they entered with shotguns drawn.

They went up the passenger elevator together, and began a floor-by-floor search (VII p. 160, IV p. 205). On the 4th floor they had to use the freight elevator to ascend. None of them mentioned in their testimony being on the 5th floor, however (also VII p. 121). Nor was this mentioned in Boyd & Sims' joint police report (XXIV p. 319).

But Fritz' secretary T.L. Baker did report that "They also found officers on the 3rd, 4th, and proceeded to the 5th floor, and made a search clear to the front and west windows..." (XXIV p. 285).

Alyea had been on the 5th floor, then, with Fritz, Sims & Boyd.

The 3 men left the Depository together and drove to DPD HQ.

Sims would later place the 3 spent cartridges found in the sniper's nest into an evidence envelope, and he & Boyd body-searched Lee Harvey Oswald at 4:05 in the DPD basement, with Boyd discovering 5 live rounds in Oswald's pants pocket.

However, speaking on his behalf, I find it highly unlikely that Richard "chicken-mover" Sims ate any fried morsels as he transported them to the 6th.