Choose Search Type
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Jack Edwin Dougherty
Today at 6:13 pm by barto

» ATF Agents
Today at 5:58 pm by Ed. Ledoux

» ROKC Art Gallery
Yesterday at 5:57 pm by steely dan

» From NARA by ROKC
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 8:12 pm by Ed. Ledoux

» News from Fuhrer HQ
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 8:06 pm by Ed. Ledoux

» Study of the Couch film
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 6:37 pm by Ed. Ledoux

» More Evidence for Harvey & Lee -- Oswald was missing a MOLAR, but his exhumed body was not!
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 9:21 am by steely dan

» Study of the Darnell film.
Sat 17 Feb 2018, 4:35 am by barto

» Bill Shelley
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 5:20 pm by Robbert

Log in

I forgot my password

Social bookmarking

Social bookmarking digg  Social bookmarking delicious  Social bookmarking reddit  Social bookmarking stumbleupon  Social bookmarking slashdot  Social bookmarking yahoo  Social bookmarking google  Social bookmarking blogmarks  Social bookmarking live      

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

Bookmark and share the address of REOPENKENNEDYCASE on your social bookmarking website

RSS feeds


Yahoo! 
MSN 
AOL 
Netvibes 
Bloglines 


Affiliates
free forum
 



Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Go down

Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by greg parker on Sat 02 Dec 2017, 10:12 am

The first thing to know about the TSBD roll-call is that it never happened. There was no roll-call. Roy Truly mentioned no such thing.  Captain Fritz never said that Truly mentioned anything like that.

The first official information about a roll-call came from Gerald Hill who testified on April 8, 1964 that “I asked the captain why he wanted him [Oswald], and he said, 'Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll-call of the employees.”


But the roll-call story had been printed in the media well before that. For example, on Nov 28, 1963, the Dallas Morning News reported that “When Oswald failed to answer a roll-call in the Texas School Book Depository after a rifleman shot President Kennedy from its 6th floor, officers issued a pickup. Records in the building showed Oswald lived at Irving.

The last we hear of a roll-call came from Buell Wesley Frazier during a 2002 CSPAN interview where he described a roll-call being made, including describing how names were called and how you had to respond. He also added the crucial detail that this was when Oswald was noted as missing, but that this was only adversely regarded when it was realized he was not coming back.

This is difficult to reconcile with the known facts. 

But it’s an implausibility that skates by those not overly familiar with the evidence. It will seem right to those will have a vague memory of reading about a roll-call, and it will seem right to others just because it sounds like something that should have happened.

Moreover, as Ed pointed out, if you had a name, why not broadcast it? Instead, the description put out was not that of Oswald and no name was attached to it. The broadcast description was that of a generic young white male. 

In some ways, the role of the Warren Commission was to unscramble the omelet that the first investigation had created. Case in point:  Captain Glenn King of the DPD gave a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors. In that speech, King stated:

At the location of the assassination investigators were able to quickly determine that an employee had been at work prior to the assassination, but was missing after the offense. A description of this man was secured and broadcast on the police radio. The description was “a slender white male, about 30 years of age, about 5; 10” tall, weighing about 165 pounds, carrying what looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester.”

 It has to be assumed that King had plenty of time to make sure he had the right story. After all, you’re addressing professional fact-checkers. That should be enough to ensure you take care to be accurate.  Yet here we see again, despite claiming they had a name, no name was broadcast -  just an incorrect description.

 How did the Warren Commission address this issue? They addressed it in their rumors and speculation section:
 
Speculation--A detailed and remarkably clear description of Oswald was sent over the police radio in Dallas at 12:36 p.m., November 22, 1963. 

Commission finding--The radio logs of the Dallas Police Department and the Dallas County Sheriff's Office show that no description of a suspect in the assassination of the President was broadcast before 12 :45 p.m. on that day. No reference to Oswald by name was broadcast before he was arrested. The description of the suspect that was broadcast was similar to that of Oswald, but it lacked some important specific details such as color of hair and eyes. The information for the initial broadcasts most probably came from Howard Brennan, who saw Oswald in the window when he was firing the rifle.
 
No roll-call – no broadcast description or name.

Yet there is no doubt that Oswald’s name was given to Fritz by Truly. It was overheard by reporter Kent Biffle.  But Truly had no real basis for giving out Oswald’s name. He had allegedly seen him in the 2nd floor lunch room 90 seconds after the shooting, and in any case, as Ochus Campbell told the press, “Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour…” though Campbell inexplicably then added “but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven't seen him since."  Of course, no one required permission to leave the building during their lunch break… which would be why Truly claimed it took 15 minutes after returning from leading the charge upstairs in search of the sniper to notice Oswald was not around. That now moves him into being missing on company time. It also however should have been of no concern since by now, the police were stopping anyone entering the building, and Truly knew others were not present for this reason.

The cops were making a rod for their own backs.  Now they had to suggest Tippit was killed because he stopped Oswald due to Oswald matching the description from Dealey Plaza even though he only matched with wide margins of error in weight and age. Apart from that, who knows how many others Tippit passed in his driving around who also “matched” this generic description?

It was getting almost schizophrenic in the DPD.

Whilst claiming that the JFK shooter was stopped by Tippit on the basis of the broadcast description, they were ignoring the fact that another description was broadcast from Tippit witnesses that was only vaguely similar to what came out of Dealey Plaza.

After all the dust settled, no cop - wisely - was prepared to say they suspected it was the same guy. How could they? This guy was different in appearance and was wielding a handgun, not a rifle. At that point, no one knew Oswald had allegedly gone “home”, changed and grabbed another gun.
But were those denials by police true? Did one or more in fact “know” it was “the same” person in both murders? Reporter Vic Robertson was a witness at the Texas Theater. During his Warren Commission testimony, he was asked if he had any idea that the person being arrested might be the same person who killed the president. Robertson respondedIf I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there. It seems logical that the only source Robertson could have for that information would be the police.

Let us now return to the TSBD to discover how Oswald really left.

We know Truly told Lumpkin that Oswald was missing, and then went upstairs to tell Fritz. We know from Truly’s testimony that there was some fudging going on with the time-frame for this. We know that this triggered precisely no broadcast of an accurate description or Oswald’s name. We know that Fritz met with Sheriff Decker before going back to the Dallas Police HQ where he found his man already under arrest on the Tippit murder.

What has been missed in all of this however, unravels the whole story of Oswald’s alleged escape. Almost amusingly, the only person not to bury it was Jesse Currie who included the information in his book, otherwise the only place it can be found is in the report of the Texas AG.

Starting on page 21 of that report, it reads:

“As each office and floor was cleared, the employees were stopped by Kaminsky and Mr. Truly, manager of the firm, at the front door where their names, addresses and telephone numbers were written down and they were identified by Mr. Truly as to their employment. “

Kaminksy worked under Revill and the list compiled was later typed and became known as Revill’s list.

The first name on that list reads as “Harvey Lee Oswald”. In the real world, being first named on such a list would indicate you were the first person cleared to leave. But no.  To some, that was never even a consideration. As always happens, conspiracy just grows around such seeming anomalies. The biggest belief along those lines encountered was that the name and address for Oswald on this list had been supplied by Military Intelligence and some vague notion that Col Jones ex of 112th MIG had spilled the beans on it during his HSCA interview.

It’s wishful thinking and the need to create mega-conspiracies and that’s all it is. It never happened. Jones said no such thing and there is not one iota of evidence in existence that supports that information coming from any intelligence source.

It came from Lee Harvey Oswald – not the army, not the CIA and not some imaginary doppelganger.


What the list shows is a person listed as Harvey Lee Oswald, with an address at 605 Elsbeth.  That slightly wrong information only fuels the suspicion.

It does however have a rational, non-conspiratorial explanation. Oswald approached Kaminsky and Truly and was questioned about his identity, was cleared as an employee by Truly and then asked to “step aside” as per the testimony of Postal Inspector, Harry Holmes.
 
But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
 
In context, the above played out at the front entrance, exactly where Truly and Kaminsky were station. At that stage, they were probably still getting themselves organized and when they were ready, Oswald flashed his old library card at Kaminsky. 


The library card upside down now reads left to right "Harvey Lee Mr Oswald". Additionally the smudged "2" upside down could be mistaken for a 5. Read quickly under such dire circumstances, the brain would in my opinion, disregard the “Mr.” Shown below is the top of Kaminsky's list after it was typed.

In short, Oswald left the same way everyone else did and received clearance to leave.  He just happened to be the first.

Oswald could not have known about this process for leaving unless he himself had experienced it. But the information about it was buried, and the incident tweaked and switched to the 2nd floor lunchroom which made it theoretically possible for Oswald to have gotten down in time from the so-called sniper’s nest.

But the evidence does not stop there. Earliest newspaper accounts – quoting police – also confirm this happening at the front door. The cops were giving this information out before it was realized how destructive it was of Oswald’s guilt.

In one early newspaper account, it confirms that “police were posited at exits to the warehouse. Police said a man, identified as Oswald, walked through the door of the warehouse and was stopped by a policeman. Oswald told the policeman that “I work here” and when another employee confirmed that he did, the policeman let Oswald walk away.


From the Sydney Morning Herald. This initial account of the assassination quotes an un-named police source now known to be Det. Hicks

We also have the transcript of the HSCA interview with fellow employee James Jarman:

What we are left with is that Truly allowed Oswald to leave and then reported him missing. He set the rabbit loose and then sent the hounds after him. The roll-call was fabricated to help cover this up.

But we will get to Truly and his role in our final talk.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



https://www.thenewdisease.space
avatar
greg parker
Admin

Posts : 4644
Join date : 2009-08-21
Age : 59
Location : Orange, NSW, Australia

View user profile http:// http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IXOA5ZK/ref=s9_simh_

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Vinny on Tue 09 Jan 2018, 9:36 pm

Great summary,Greg.

Vinny

Posts : 434
Join date : 2013-08-27

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Mick Purdy on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:49 pm

Great Stuff Greg.


Truly surely is a prime suspect for the frame. Don't know whether he's the ring master, pretty damn close I'd say.
Off topic but my mind turns to Jack Dougherty and his relationship with Truly.

Truly is in this up to his neck, and he surely was the one who would have signed off authorising Jack to be the gatekeeper of the TSBD. An interesting thought if Jack is the eyes and ears.

Truly whom we know is dirty, gives the authority to open shop and possess the buildings keys outside of business hours to Jack Dougherty. Now where was Jack just before the assassination?

2 weapons brought in the building in two separate cartons on Wednesday or so says Warren Caster and Roy Truly, but what if there had been three instead of the two. What if the third was hidden in one of those cartons. You know like a magicians trick. Taken to Truly's office as stated and the unseen weapon was hidden in the office without anyone's knowledge. Waiting for the ever reliable trustworthy Jack to retrieve it later to throwdown on the sixth floor. Speculation of course  Cool
avatar
Mick Purdy

Posts : 395
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Jake Sykes on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:41 pm

Excellent Mick. It certainly would justify an otherwise crazy coincidence. Fits like a glove.

_________________
Release clear scans. Reveal the truth about Prayer Man. Preserve the history of the assassination of JFK.
avatar
Jake Sykes

Posts : 230
Join date : 2016-08-15

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:58 pm

Biffle in the DMN 1981.

. . . only two of us [reporters] had arrived at the ambush building [ the Depository] by this point. . . . Getting in was no problem. I just hid my press badge . . . and went in with the first wave of cops. . . . Hours dragged by. The building superintendent showed up with some papers in his hand. I listened as he told detectives about Lee Oswald failing to show up at a roll call. My impression is that there was an earlier roll call that had been inconclusive because several employees were missing. This time, however all were accounted for except Oswald. I jotted down the Oswald information. . . . Neither the police in the building nor the superintendent knew that Oswald already was under arrest.

barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 5:58 am

This is from a post by Donald Willis in 2002 and a cool read.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/rK_YGcJilHw

The employee who was missing from the TSBD--William Shelley
"Earlier, while the police were questioning the employees, Truly had observed
that Lee Harvey Oswald, 1 of the 15 men who worked in the warehouse, was
missing.... Fritz... arrived at HQ shortly after 2pm & asked 2 detectives to
pick up the employee who was missing from the TSBD." (p9)
"After the President's accident, I started checking around & I missed Lee.  I
asked Mr Truly about him & he told me he had not seen him.  I didn't see Lee
until the Police brought him in to the Police Homicide Bureau." (affidavit,
William H Shelley/v24 p226)
Probably not one word of the above two statements is true.  Shortly, it will be
seen just how ironic it is that it was *Shelley* who said that he had brought it
to the attention of his boss that Oswald was missing.... This is a good example
re how suborned witness testimony shaped, or mis-shaped, the story of 11/22/63,
until it bore little or no resemblance to what actually happened....
In installment 3, I noted that it was odd that B.W. Frazier did not "hear
anybody there asking for Lee Oswald"--his neighbor & co-worker--during the
checking-out of TSBD employees. (v2p236)  And now it will be shown to be odder
still--even comical--that it was supposedly Shelley who was leading the
murmuring of employees asking where Oswald was.  For there exists a remarkable
police document listing the employees of the TSBD (CE 2003 pp127-Cool, both those
who apparently were officially checked out that afternoon by Lt Jack Revill
("We... took names, addresses, & phone numbers of all these people before they
were permitted to leave"/v5p34), & those who either simply left before the
checkout, or left & returned around 3pm.
One name is missing from the composite list, & it's not Oswald's.  It's
*Shelley's* name which is not there, although the names of the two other
employees who were reported to have been driven downtown from the TSBD with
Shelley--Danny Arce & Bonnie Ray Williams--are listed, with checks next to their
names.  Just a clerical fluke?  In that case, it would have to have been a
double fluke, because not only is Shelley not shown to have checked out, he is
not shown to have checked back in, tho he testified that "I went up later [to
the 6th floor] that day, I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall"
(v6p330).  At least four TSBD employees are listed as having missed the
checkout, left, then returned, & Shelley's name is not among these either....
How, then--in the official DPD version--did Shelley get from the TSBD to City
Hall?  Det TL Baker says that "Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce...
accompanied" Homicide Dets BL Senkel & CW Brown (CE 2003 p164).  Brown concurs
that he & Senkel "brought 3 of these [TSBD] employees to the office, & I took an
affidavit from a William Shelley" (CE 2003 p190).  And Brown provides the most
detailed version of the trip:  "Brown stated he had a car & would drive me to
City Hall.  Brown & I left the TSBD with witnesses William H. Shelley, Bonnie
Ray Williams, & Danny Garcia Arce" (CE 2003 p244).
Pretty conclusive.  Just a fluke, then, that Shelley's name was not among those
who either checked out of the TSBD or checked back in, later.... Or was it? 
Film footage on one of the History Channel's JFK documentaries shows Williams &
Arce being directed to Brown's car.  And a Jack Beers photograph (Pictures/Pain
p549) again shows Williams & Arce, seated in the car.  Where is Shelley?  Has
anybody here seen Shelley?  Maybe he was simply cropped out of the photo....

BK: 
We know now that Shelley was in the car there is better quality footage about.


Here is crystal-clear testimony from Williams:
I think they took me & another fellow, Danny [from the TSBD]--they took us in
one car.
Ball:  You were with Danny Arce & one or 2 police officers?
Williams:  Yes, sir.
Ball:  Anybody else?
Williams:  That's all. (v3 p182)
Maybe 50 million Frenchman can't be wrong, but it appears that 3 police officers
were.  Document & film evidence supports Williams, & undercuts Baker, Brown, &
Senkel.  But why would the DPD want to make it appear that Oswald's foreman was
shepherded to police HQ along with the other employees?  Why would the DPD want
to make it appear, that is, that Shelley was in the TSBD, when he was not?  When
did he leave, & why?  Oh, yes, maybe, ah! I begin to see--the latter is a
question usually asked re *Oswald*, "the employee who was missing from the
TSBD."  And if Oswald was *not*--and it appears that he was not--the only
warehouseman absent from the checkout--from the TBSD--without explanation, why
was he already being singled out?  Or was he patsied out, er, singled out only
in retrospect?
At the very least, the unexplained absence of *Shelley* from the TSBD, between 1
& 2, tends to undermine his testimony that he did not "tell Oswald to go home."
(v7 p390)  That is, if he, Shelley, left the building, it seems unlikely that he
would have told *Oswald* not to leave.   File under Unintentional
Assassination-Day Humor:  The missing Bill wasn't there to check around & miss
Lee.  The absent Shelley affirms his presence by commenting on Oswald's absence.
A surreal footnote to an all-around bad day....
Even more perplexing is why the warehouse *foreman* would leave the building
during such an emergency.  And why wasn't the building manager, Truly, concerned
that his foreman was absent?  Shelley should have been his right-hand man then,
but Shelley's affidavit claim that he "went with the police on up to the other
floors" (CE 2003 p59) rings pretty hollow.  Truly's own affidavit claim that he
"asked Mr Shelley if he had seen Lee" (CE 2003 p62) now also rings hollow, if
not downright existential.  As Katharine Hepburn said in "Bringing Up Baby,"
"There's nothing there!"
Where *did* Shelley go, & why?  Probably nothing at all sinister about his early
departure--it's the cover-up of same that's at issue.  In one of his affidavits,
he stated that he went inside the TSBD & phoned his wife.  Perhaps he told her
he was coming home, & did, & ran into Oswald either before or after the call,
told him of his intention, & heard Oswald say that *he* was going home, too...
Apparently, Shelley--like Charles Givens--was picked up *outside* the TSBD, &
taken to police HQ for affidavits on 11/22.  But the DPD--and the TSBD--covered
up Shelley's innocent absence, the better it seems to make it look as if Oswald
was on the run, rather than leaving his place of work with the knowledge &
permission of his foreman....
Donald Willis

Basically Shelley went in and told Roy Truly what's what and this is where the shafting of Leroy, a goddamn commie and a cop killer, begins, now I wish I was a fly on the wall at that time!
I need to add on that DW is wrong with his suspicion of Shelley being gone, as he was memerly making sure those two coloured kids got treated all right at the DPD I do not see any suspicion in that either, merely as protecting yer own folk.

barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Mick Purdy on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 9:48 am

No suspicion of Shelley maybe correct, but if the article is accurate- the cover-up of his whereabouts is a cause for concern. I don't know enough of Shelley's movements that day to comment. Good piece though.
avatar
Mick Purdy

Posts : 395
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Sun 28 Jan 2018, 11:01 pm

Nothing suspicious with his absence, he made sure Garcia and Williams did not get "the treatment" at DPD

But he came back and then of course hada pow wow with Roy, about Oz who was a cop killer and about to be braodcasted as a filthy commie as well.

Meanwhile, you know what makes that roll call such bogus?
Take a look at Revill's list and see at what time Lloyd Viles managed to get back in, and the women at the bottom of the list.
Roll Call my azz

 

Virgie Rackley does not get back in till 2:55 and is seen inside being interviewed by Biffle! So while Oz is already an hour in custody Biffle is still inside taking notes. And his questions would have been Oswald oriented had he known, instead he monitored and wrote up people's experiences. Would I love to see Kent Biffle's JFK Assassination notes  bounce



barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Mick Purdy on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 12:34 pm

So would I Barto, so would I.
gone for all money I'd say.

Roll call my arse!

Stuff me this is insane. Thank-you Ed Ledoux for originally bringing this thread to life and Greg for reprising this amazing topic.

Your on fire Bart

Drinks soon my friend  Cool
avatar
Mick Purdy

Posts : 395
Join date : 2013-07-26
Location : Melbourne Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 11:52 pm

Thanks Mick and yeah any time m8!

The reason I brought this up is because earlier Biffle stated HOURS DRAGGED BY when Truly came out with some  papers in his hands....

The whole notion of Oswald being missing and Fritz knowing this when he arrived back at DPD is bollox.

barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by BC_II on Sat 03 Feb 2018, 12:19 pm

Dammit...so theres no such thing (historically speaking) as Biffle's notes from the day in question? I swear studying this damned case makes me want to......its so frustrating.

BC_II

Posts : 54
Join date : 2017-06-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 4:38 am

So there are several employees missing, some of which did not return until just after 3PM
Shelley leaves the TSBD an hour after the shooting and is filmed doing so, without a record of him leaving, to escort Garcia and Williams to City Hall.
The only APB going out is generic in nature and had Truly been missing Lee by that time, due to Shelley missing Lee BEFORE he left at half 1 it sure as hell would be blasting over the air waves. Fritz knew nothing besides a suspect was in custody for the Tippit killing.
At City iHall s where they give their statements, Shelley even gives two and makes sure the coloured boys are treated right.
Shelley sees Oswald being paraded in by the DPD and comments that Oswald works at the TSBD. What he does not do is point him out as the man missing at 1 PM..
Now why not as that would have sealed the deal.
He finds out Oz is in for killing a cop
Then Shelley finds out he is a dirty commie as well, either while at City Hall or through the TV/Radio when it is all broadcasted about.
Even if the last bit did not happen until much later.
Oswald is arrested for killing a cop.
And now Shelley returns to the TSBD.........and has a chat with Truly.

And let's not forget Biffle "Hours dragged by".

Neither Shelley nor Truly were in on it if you ask me. But they did lend a huge helping hand once Shelley came back.


Last edited by barto on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total

barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by barto on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 6:25 am


barto

Posts : 512
Join date : 2015-07-21

View user profile http://www.prayer-man.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by BC_II on Tue 06 Feb 2018, 9:26 am

We may have to keep a careful eye on Shelley Bart. I mean I've only come across comments here and there concerning him and his alleged past work for the Agency? I also remember rumors of a photo of a man in New Orleans that resemble Shelley but I've not come across any definitive evidence that he is the man in the photo from before 11/22/63, however his past, if shown to be accurate, begs the question as to a bigger role than what we've come to realize over the years.

Any info and study by you guys (being FAR more seasoned than I am) that can show that its either concrete or hogwash is gold in my book but I don't know....I'm hesitant to let Shelley off the hook.

BC_II

Posts : 54
Join date : 2017-06-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Steve Thomas on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 2:58 am

barto wrote:  For there exists a remarkable
police document listing the employees of the TSBD (CE 2003 pp127-Cool, both those
who apparently were officially checked out that afternoon by Lt Jack Revill
("We... took names, addresses, & phone numbers of all these people before they
were permitted to leave"/v5p34), & those who either simply left before the
checkout, or left & returned around 3pm.
One name is missing from the composite list, & it's not Oswald's.  It's
*Shelley's* name which is not there,

Warren Commission Exhibit 2003, located in (24H259) is a list submitted to Captain Gannaway through Lieutenant Jack Revill of Texas School Book Depository employees. It is dated November 22, 1963. Heading that list is Harvey Lee Oswald at 605 Elsbeth. Page 3 of CE 2003, found on page 260, is signed by R.W. Westphal, Detective, Criminal Intelligence Section and P.M. Parks, Detective, Administrative Section. R.W. Westphal and P.M. Parks were both Detectives in the Special Service Bureau.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=277&tab=page
 
Though that list of employees is dated 11/22/63, in Westphal's interview with Larry Sneed in No More Silence, he talks about going home, and then returning to his office at the Fairgrounds to write up his report of a man at the Trade Mart with a “Free Cuba” flag. So, I'm not sure what time of the evening that list was actually typed up. While he was writing his Report, Captain Gannaway called and asked him to check the names of the TSBD employees against the Department's Intelligence files. Westphal said, “We had handwritten, partial lists; some of them, you couldn't read the names”.
 
You can see this reflected in the list in the entry in CE 2003 for Marg Lee Williams (actually, Mary Lee Williams)
In the DPD Archives, there is no interview or affidavit for Ms. Williams, just a handwritten note with her name and address.
DPD Archives, Box 3, Folder# 17, Item# 7
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm
 
 
Westphal did recognize the name of one man, Joe Molina however. Gannaway instructed Westphal to “bring the entire file down to his office”
[url=https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+"+Roy+Westphal"&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas " Roy westphal"&f=false]https://books.google.com/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Dallas+%22+Roy+Westphal%22&source=bl&ots=eii6yRhLo8&sig=nr0C2_dukxaBfdcQiFnDLg3ugKM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt-9Xpi8nRAhVpwFQKHZBBDX0Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Dallas%20%22%20Roy%20Westphal%22&f=false[/url]
 
 
V.J. Brian testified to the Warren Commission on May 13, 1964. He told the Commission that he was a “detective in the criminal intelligence section”, as was Roy Westphal. When the shooting occurred, he was at the Trade Mart. He said that, “...four of us detectives down there got in a car and we went to the Book Depository and we arrived there a short time, I don't know what time it was, a short time after the shooting occurred.
Mr. RANKIN. Who were the four you are describing now?
Mr. BRIAN. Lieutenant Revill, myself, a detective, O. J. Tarver, and a detective, Roy W. Westphal and we gave a man a lift, and I don't remember whether he was a CID, I don't know the man, I don't remember whether he was a CIC agent or a CID or OSI, he was some type of, as I recall, Army intelligence man.
 
He only describes searching the TSBD and said, " in fact, I didn't have time to (write a report of the Hosty/Revill conversation) because when I got back there (to the second floor office of the Special Service Bureau, located directly below Captain Fritz's office on the third floor ) they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "Start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people."
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40#relPageId=57&tab=page
(5H33)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brian.htm
 
I thought it would be interesting to cross reference the employee with the person who interviewed them, and to see if they were actually interviewed, or just had an affidavit taken. Most of the interviews were conducted by Detectives in the Special Services Bureau,
Batchelor Exhibit 5002 p. 3. Page 120 of the pdf file.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
 
although James Leavelle, Guy Rose, and E.R. Beck were Detectives in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Captained by Will Fritz.
Batchelor Exhibit 5002 p. 28. Page 145 of the pdf file.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
 
 
The list of employees is arranged in three columns. The first column is an employee name. Some names are misspelled. The third column had their address and phone number. The second column is headed, “REF.INT.” Almost all of the names in that column have the word, “NONE” in that entry. Two names: Joe Molina and Mrs. J.E. Dean (Ruth Dean) have the letters, “INT” and a number. I believe that these are people who were listed in the Police Department's Intelligence Files, as described by Roy Westphal to Larry Sneed. And V.J. Brian in his WC testimony.
 
If what I believe is true, I noted a couple of things:

  1. Harvey Lee Oswald was not in the DPD Intelligence Files
  2. Charles Givens, who had a record of narcotic arrests; and as such, would fall under the purview of the Special Service Bureau is listed as NONE. Is this possibly an indication that Givens was an undercover informant to the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Special Service Bureau?
  3. There is no record of an interview of Buell Wesley Frazier. There is an affidavit, but no record of this arrest by the Irving Police Department, or of the hours he spent in the Dallas Police Department Headquarters.

 
Witness and Interviewer
The numbers that are listed are the Box, Folder and File numbers in the DPD Archives. For example 3-17-7 is Box 3, Folder#, 17, Item# 7.
There is a quick access to these Archives Boxes here:
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html

Mrs. Avery Davis B.L. Senkel 5-6-54 Interview
Judy McCully W.E. Potts 5-6-6 1Interview
Ruth Nelson B.L. Senkel 5-6-64 Interview
Mary Hollis W.E. Potts 5-6-59 Intrview sp. Hollies
Vickie Adams James Leavelle 5-6-49 Interview
Charles Givens James Leavelle 5-2-25 Affidavit 5-5-31
O.V. Campbell James Leavelle 5-6-52 Interview
Otis Williams W.E. Potts 5-6-68 Report Missing
Doris Burns B.L. Senkel 5-6-51 Interview
Mrs. Jim Reese O.J. Tarver and L.D. Stringfellow 1-8-15 Interview “Madie Bell Reese” 5-6-66
Edna Case O.J. Tarver and L.D. Stringfellow 5-6-53 Interview
Mrs. H.G. Whitaker B.L. Senke l5-6-67 Interview
Pat Lawrence Roy Westphal and V.J. Brian 5-6-62 Interview
Danny Garcia Arce W.E. Potts 5-2-5 Affidavit 5-2-3
Bonnie Ray Williams B.L. Senkel 5-2-62 Affidavi t5-2-3
Ray Edward Lewis M. H. Brumley and P.M. Parks 5-6-60 Interview Repeated twice
Lawrence Ford No Report
Ray Edward Lewis M.H. Brumley and P.M. Parks 5-6-60 Interview of Roy Edward Lewis of 5906 Woodville
Terrence Ford F.A. Hellinghausen and T.T. Wardlaw 5-6-56 Interview Not an employee. With Pierce Allman
Eddie Piper M. H. Brumley and P.M. Parks 5-6-65 Interview
Mrs. Robert Reid James Leavelle 5-2-51 Affidavit
Joe Molina INT# 2370-9-49 B.L. Senkel 5-6-63 Interview
Sandra Sue Kramer T.T. Wardlaw1-8-16 Interview Kelly Girl temp.
Mrs. J.E. Dean INT# 2392-16 Roy Westphal and V,J, Brian 5-6-55 FBI interview (Ruth Dean)  CE 1427
Jack Dougherty W.E. Potts 5-2-19 Affidavit 5-2-3
James Jarman (see Joe Jarman)
Billy Lovelady James Leavelle 5-2-34 Affidavit 5-5-31
Harold Dean Norman No Report
Carl Edward Jones No Report
Buell Wesley Frazier Guy Rose 1-6-21 and 1-6-25, 5-2-24, 1-7-5, 2-2-11 Affidavit No Interview
Joe Earl Jarman No Report (This is actually James Earl Jarman)
James Earl Jarman Unknown 5-2-32 Affidavit
Dorothy Garner handwritten on employee list No Report
Jane Berry No Report
Betty Foster No Report
Elsie Dorman
No Report
Mrs. Oliver Hopson No Report (not home)
Mrs. Alvin Hopson int'd by FBI agent Bardwell Odum 12/3/63 CE 2085
Betty Thornton No Report
Sandra Styler  No Report
Mrs. R.A. Reid James Leavelle 2-2-17 Affidavit
Geneva L. Hine E.R. Beck and FBI agent, Albert Sayers 1-8-20 Interview
Martha Reed No Report
Sara Stanton No Report
Mrs. Robert E. Sanders No Report
Herbert Lester Junker No Report
L.R. Viles No Report list says left bldg at 12:15 and ret'd at 3:10 was across the street
Mrs. A.D. Dickerson No Report
Marg Lee Williams No Report3-17-7 Handwitten note with (Mary Lee Williams) with address of
Mary Lee Williams by unknown author
Mrs. Herman M. Clay No Report
Georgia Ruth Hendrix No Report
Peggy Bigler Hawkins No Report
Mrs. William V. Parker No Report list says was across the street)
Delores P. Koonas (Koomas?) No Report (list says was across the street)
Virgie Rackley T.O. Trotman and I.E. Shelton (Patrolmen) 4-3-25 Interview (list says was across the street)
William Shelley C.W. Brown 5-2-56 Affidavit 5-2-3 (not on list)

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas

Posts : 109
Join date : 2016-10-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Roll-call Remedy Reprise

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum