Is the Mannlicher Carcano the frame or the art?

This is an open question to anyone and everyone.

The other day I was thinking about the various rifles that were allegedly found in the TSBD (the Mannlicher, the Mauser, and much more apocryphally an Enfield), I found myself wondering why it is that no Warren Commission defender ever glommed onto the idea that the Mauser was the actual murder weapon-- arguing that the Mannlicher was a silly mistake and that the Mauser, which from what little I know about guns was not a humanitarian rifle, was the actual weapon used in the assassination. It would help solve a number of ballistics problem lone nutters have never been able to solve. Is it just fear of contradicting the powers that be and the WC that has prevented that line of argument?

Which leads me to my real question: is the extant Mannlicher the official murder weapon solely because it frames Lee Harvey Oswald?

If so, why is it such a poor frame? Why not choose a better rifle for the frame, one that could plausibly do the job? Was the cheapness of the rifle the point, that it was The Everyman's weapon? Was it that it was available and widely advertised via mail order (and therefore more documented) the point?

Or was it the "art"? For instance I would mention Bill Kelly's recent piece on the rifle sling:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2020/02/the-rifle-sling-ignored-clue.html

Or perhaps the history of the rifle as a subject of the Dodd Committee and its investigation of rightwing groups, or as one of the type of weapons JFK himself attempted to ban from reimportation? Was the Mannlicher Carcano put there to send a message in and of itself? Is its lack of functionality somehow the point?

Frame or art?

rogerhucek wrote:This is an open question to anyone and everyone.

The other day I was thinking about the various rifles that were allegedly found in the TSBD (the Mannlicher, the Mauser, and much more apocryphally an Enfield), I found myself wondering why it is that no Warren Commission defender ever glommed onto the idea that the Mauser was the actual murder weapon-- arguing that the Mannlicher was a silly mistake and that the Mauser, which from what little I know about guns was not a humanitarian rifle, was the actual weapon used in the assassination. It would help solve a number of ballistics problem lone nutters have never been able to solve. Is it just fear of contradicting the powers that be and the WC that has prevented that line of argument?

Which leads me to my real question: is the extant Mannlicher the official murder weapon solely because it frames Lee Harvey Oswald?

If so, why is it such a poor frame? Why not choose a better rifle for the frame, one that could plausibly do the job? Was the cheapness of the rifle the point, that it was The Everyman's weapon? Was it that it was available and widely advertised via mail order (and therefore more documented) the point?

Or was it the "art"? For instance I would mention Bill Kelly's recent piece on the rifle sling:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2020/02/the-rifle-sling-ignored-clue.html

Or perhaps the history of the rifle as a subject of the Dodd Committee and its investigation of rightwing groups, or as one of the type of weapons JFK himself attempted to ban from reimportation? Was the Mannlicher Carcano put there to send a message in and of itself? Is its lack of functionality somehow the point?

Frame or art?

Let's play who's behind the cloak and carrying a dagger

Round One
Rifles planned to be planted as part of a Communist plot
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000920169.pdf

Who? CIA/US Military. It seems to be a first attempt at Operation Washtub -- which did eventually plant rifles - in Venezuela but allegedly to be used by Arbenz and supplied by communists via submarine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Washtub_(Nicaragua)
 
Round Three
From Dec 6 discussion by Special Group

The view was expressed that CIA, in connection with the Department of
Defense, should concentrate on *****attempting to catch Castro red-handed delivering arms to Communist groups in Latin American countries*******. It was determined that during the next 90 days from this date an attempt would be made by means of air patrols and surface ships to identify ships carrying arms for Castro to Latin American countries. It was *HOPED* that a ship with Cuban arms could be picked up. Conversations are to be initiated by the Secretary of the Navy with CIA to map out a three-month operation against Cuban shipping. It was also determined that the Colombian and Venezuelan governments should be asked to join with the U.S. in developing a joint patrol designed to identify ships carrying weapons from Cuba destined for revolutionary groups in Latin American countries.

No Cubans boats found delivering weapons? No problems! We;ll just plant them again!
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP88-01315R000400130122-2.pdf

It's a nice touch that the rifles were stamped with the Cuban coat of Arms!

In both cases, I've read reports that the weapons were crap.

What happened to Round Two, I hear asked? 

I think Roger already played that round...

Funny you should mention Washtub. This is either of paramount significance or absolutely none at all (I'd bet on the latter) but a documented prior Operation Washtub was the Alaskan Stay-Behind network the OSI created with the FBI. It was also called "Catboat, Corpuscle, Stigmatic, Behave, and Countrybred" according to the book The Air Force Office of Special Investigations 1948-2000, edited by Colonel Edward J. Hagerty, p. 118. Both involved burying of weapons caches and subterfuge.

greg parker wrote:

rogerhucek wrote:This is an open question to anyone and everyone.

The other day I was thinking about the various rifles that were allegedly found in the TSBD (the Mannlicher, the Mauser, and much more apocryphally an Enfield), I found myself wondering why it is that no Warren Commission defender ever glommed onto the idea that the Mauser was the actual murder weapon-- arguing that the Mannlicher was a silly mistake and that the Mauser, which from what little I know about guns was not a humanitarian rifle, was the actual weapon used in the assassination. It would help solve a number of ballistics problem lone nutters have never been able to solve. Is it just fear of contradicting the powers that be and the WC that has prevented that line of argument?

Which leads me to my real question: is the extant Mannlicher the official murder weapon solely because it frames Lee Harvey Oswald?

If so, why is it such a poor frame? Why not choose a better rifle for the frame, one that could plausibly do the job? Was the cheapness of the rifle the point, that it was The Everyman's weapon? Was it that it was available and widely advertised via mail order (and therefore more documented) the point?

Or was it the "art"? For instance I would mention Bill Kelly's recent piece on the rifle sling:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2020/02/the-rifle-sling-ignored-clue.html

Or perhaps the history of the rifle as a subject of the Dodd Committee and its investigation of rightwing groups, or as one of the type of weapons JFK himself attempted to ban from reimportation? Was the Mannlicher Carcano put there to send a message in and of itself? Is its lack of functionality somehow the point?

Frame or art?

Let's play who's behind the cloak and carrying a dagger

Round One
Rifles planned to be planted as part of a Communist plot
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000920169.pdf

Who? CIA/US Military. It seems to be a first attempt at Operation Washtub -- which did eventually plant rifles - in Venezuela but allegedly to be used by Arbenz and supplied by communists via submarine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Washtub_(Nicaragua)
 
Round Three
From Dec 6 discussion by Special Group

The view was expressed that CIA, in connection with the Department of
Defense, should concentrate on *****attempting to catch Castro red-handed delivering arms to Communist groups in Latin American countries*******. It was determined that during the next 90 days from this date an attempt would be made by means of air patrols and surface ships to identify ships carrying arms for Castro to Latin American countries. It was *HOPED* that a ship with Cuban arms could be picked up. Conversations are to be initiated by the Secretary of the Navy with CIA to map out a three-month operation against Cuban shipping. It was also determined that the Colombian and Venezuelan governments should be asked to join with the U.S. in developing a joint patrol designed to identify ships carrying weapons from Cuba destined for revolutionary groups in Latin American countries.

No Cubans boats found delivering weapons? No problems! We;ll just plant them again!
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP88-01315R000400130122-2.pdf

It's a nice touch that the rifles were stamped with the Cuban coat of Arms!

In both cases, I've read reports that the weapons were crap.

What happened to Round Two, I hear asked? 

I think Roger already played that round...

So are you saying the Venezualan arms caches tie into framing LHO via the MC or are they related to operations that would embarrass the CIA or other parties like United Fruit?

I guess what I was asking with the topic is: to what extent is the extant rifle an object created to convey messages other than "LHO killed the president"?

Because it's always done such a poor job of being a convincing murder weapon.

rogerhucek wrote:So are you saying the Venezualan arms caches tie into framing LHO via the MC or are they related to operations that would embarrass the CIA or other parties like United Fruit?

I guess what I was asking with the topic is: to what extent is the extant rifle an object created to convey messages other than "LHO killed the president"?

Because it's always done such a poor job of being a convincing murder weapon.

I'm saying that the CIA and/or MI historically planted crap weapons to frame people.

On that basis, I don't think there was any particular message in using this weapon. 


That is in keeping with police throwdowns used to justify killing suspects. They tend to be pieces of crap - like the pistol in this case.

We have discussed possibilities regarding the Dodd committee in this thread https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2079-oswald-hidell-and-the-senate-subcommittee-on-juvenile-delinquency 

But let's add to that a little if we can

I think the pistol was ordered by someone who knew the German language and Declan Ford's party had between 15 and 25 couples in attendances (along with a few singles), some of whom had spent considerable time in Germany. But very few of the attendees were ever interviewed by anyone.



Looking at the "Hidell" sig again, I wonder how anyone could have actually read it correctly? If I didn't know it is supposed to read "AJ Hidell" I'd have a hard time working out what it actually says. It almost looks like "AJ Hidell" has been written over the top of another name. For a start, the "d" in Hidell looks like it was originally a "t".

I'd say there is also the possibility the date was overwritten - as well as the PO Box number (you can see a lighter line between the tail of the loop in the "5" and the vertical "neck" of the letter. 

The rifle I believe was ordered by Ruth Paine and Oswald knew nothing about it. It was ordered in the name "A Hidell" - no sex listed on the order, meaning a female could be "A Hidell" just as easily as a male and I believe Marina had access to the PO Box. 

If both were ordered on behalf of the Dodd committee, it is unlikely the Dodd Committee itself would need - or want to - take possession of them.  Did they both perhaps end up in the hands of local law officials to be added to the stash of potential throwdowns? 

Just thought bubbles.

One thing I'm quietly confident about is that the rifle now held in the archives and claimed to be the murder weapon is not the same rifle we see in the backyard photographs. 
http://www.freehomepage.com/jfkresearch/c2766.html    Credit Jerry McLeer.

If the photographs in the back yard were taken in late March or early April 1963 or sometime in September as some have proposed then that goes a long way in telling us that the rifle, the Italian Manlicher Carcano model was to be used as the weapon to frame the patsy. 

The patsy, at least according to the photographs in the backyard would need to be linked to a gun and an MC rifle on the 22nd November. It did not matter which model MC rifle was "discovered" in at the TSBD, nor did it matter what model gun was "found" in the theater on Oswald. The illusion had been created. 
How this links into this thread I'm not certain but it does show a possible case of foreknowledge and a sense of some sort of pre-planning.  
That the MC rifle along with a gun would somehow be linked to the alleged killer. Just thinking out loud.