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Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

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Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Sun 20 Mar 2011, 9:26 pm

Mrs Madden worked in the Identification Division of NOPD. She was interviewed by SA Quigley on 11/26/63. She advised that her file on Oswald’s arrest held no information about anyone named “Hidell”.


Mrs Madden FBI Interview

On Nov 30, SA Quigley wrote another report on the August arrest. Copied into this report was another report dated August 12 authored by Sergeant Horace Austin and Patrolman Warren Roberts of the Intelligence Division. They had been among a number of cops who were the first to interrogate Oswald.

What is interesting about this is that one section and one section only of this report (which runs many pages), is incorrectly formatted. It is that part of the August 12 report which mentions that “Hidell’s” signature appears on a local FPCC card allegedly in Oswald’s possession at the time of the arrest.

This is clear evidence that this part of the report was altered in some way at the time it was copied into Quigley's report.


Quigley Report Incorporating Joint Austin-Roberts Report

I believe something similar happened when Qugley's August arrest report was incorporated into Kaack's report.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Guest on Wed 23 Mar 2011, 3:03 am

Hi Greg

I've been a long time promising to come over here and after dealing with Mr. Pig on a Leash, I really need some sanity and balanced discussion.

What are your thoughts on Hidell? Is the name Hidell, in your opinion, completely fabricated for use after the assassination by people other than Oswald or do you think Oswald was playing around with it whilst in NOLA at the behest of other interested parties and it was then later used against him?

The one piece of evidence that I haven't yet come up with a reasonable explanation for is the vaccination card with Dr Hideel stamped on it, using the bottom of a can as the stamp.

I'm really buying the Quigley report manipulation and it makes perfect sense to me.

I checked my e-mail on Friday and saw your question. I told you I didn't go into my personal e-mails very often so apologies for not getting back to you. I will over the next few days. Very, very interesting question.

Guest
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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Thu 24 Mar 2011, 12:16 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Hi Greg

I've been a long time promising to come over here and after dealing with Mr. Pig on a Leash, I really need some sanity and balanced discussion.

What are your thoughts on Hidell? Is the name Hidell, in your opinion, completely fabricated for use after the assassination by people other than Oswald or do you think Oswald was playing around with it whilst in NOLA at the behest of other interested parties and it was then later used against him?

The one piece of evidence that I haven't yet come up with a reasonable explanation for is the vaccination card with Dr Hideel stamped on it, using the bottom of a can as the stamp.

I'm really buying the Quigley report manipulation and it makes perfect sense to me.

I checked my e-mail on Friday and saw your question. I told you I didn't go into my personal e-mails very often so apologies for not getting back to you. I will over the next few days. Very, very interesting question.

Lee,

The "Hidell" name could have been tied to the Dodd Committee weapons investigation, or had use in intelligence as (kind of) described by Nagell.

The vaccination certificate was apparently* an old one which had been revised in '57 and again in '61 with all old stock destroyed. Blanks were not hard to obtain, but in this case, you may have to believe Oswald obtained one before going to the Soviet Union and kept it for unknown reasons for several years before utilizing it in the manner ascribed.

*You could argue that the document doesn't specifically state this was an old outdated form, but if it was not, why include the information about when it was revised and about old stock being destroyed?

vacination certificate FBI inquiry

Apart from that, if he didn't actually go to Mexico City, he wouldn't need any kind of certificate.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Guest on Thu 31 Mar 2011, 1:44 am

Greg,

How about the Reily Coffee company job application? There is on the form listed a Robt. Hidell. I've always thought it strange that he would originally list a second cousin, William Oswald, on the form, who worked at Reily Coffee but claimed not to know Lee, only to have him crossed out on the form and the fake Robt. Hidell name written in.

You think this change on the has been done post-assassination?

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Tue 05 Apr 2011, 9:36 pm

Lee David Farley wrote:Greg,

How about the Reily Coffee company job application? There is on the form listed a Robt. Hidell. I've always thought it strange that he would originally list a second cousin, William Oswald, on the form, who worked at Reily Coffee but claimed not to know Lee, only to have him crossed out on the form and the fake Robt. Hidell name written in.

You think this change on the has been done post-assassination?

Lee, sorry - almost forgot about this. Without seeing the original form (I couldn't locate it in a couple of quick searches), it's a bit difficult to be certain, but it does look that way to me.

The investigator for the credit company hired by Reily told the FBI that he interviewed Aunt Lily and two associates who had known Lee for 1 to 2 years. He couldn't recall the names. The FBI could not determine who Evans was and believed Hidell was entirely fictional, and since Oswald had not been living in New Orleans, who were these local associates who had known him for so long? Once again, it's hard not to conclude there is something awfully wrong with this picture.
FBI interview with Henry Coe Desmare

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 9:52 am

Notice in the Austin-Roberts report (as embedded into the Quigley report dated 11/29) it notes that Roberts conducted detailed interviews of Oswald and Hernandez. Yet when Roberts was interviewed on 11/30 by SA Whomsley, he could only recall the NY issued FPCC card signed by VT Lee.

As pointed out before, the Austin-Roberts report DOES state that Oswald had the card signed by "Hidell" - but if the interview had been DETAILED, how would he forget about this card, while remembering the less significant (because it was not issued locally) NY card? Admittedly, in his interview with Whomsley, Roberts did complain that the Oswald interview had been unsatisfactory - but only because of the number of people in the room and the general atmosphere that created. The report jointly signed with Austin clearly is detailed.

But that formatting still bothers me. The ONLY place in the whole document that has the formatting screwed up is the section dealing with Oswald's ID cards.

And there are other things of interest in the joint report.

1. "...it appears as though he is being used by these people and is very iniformed [sic] and knows very little about this organization that he belongs to and its ultimate purpose and goal. Oswald stated that the people that attend these informal meetings are working class such as clerical, trades etc..." and "husky laborers"?

2. The 3 amigos who confronted Oswald were carrying their own sign [something I'd not heard before]. It was described by Carlos B as "about 3 feet by 4 feet with a Statue of Liberty, hand with dagger on end of long chain, and Cuba ringed by two links of the chain. The sign reads, 'danger! Only 90 miles from USA, Cuba lives in chains'"

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 11 Jul 2013, 6:12 am

Does anyone know who Theodore Hidell and his uncle Alex Hidell etc were?

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/6625/rec/18

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Thu 11 Jul 2013, 8:37 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Does anyone know who Theodore Hidell and his uncle Alex Hidell etc were?

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/6625/rec/18

 Hasan,

look for Tom Scully's posts in this thread. I had, for some reason, forgotten what he'd found. Odd, because it should be one of his more memorable posts. 

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7006&page=2

I also located this:


Joseph P Kennedy Jr. Mysterious Plane Explosion

By Alex J Hidell Jr.
http://rfkin2008.wordpress.com/2008/03/17/bobby-brings-daughter-kick-into-the-spotlight/

Notice this one has the "J" middle initial...

 edit to add: obviously this could be just a pen name someone used for ironic purpose, I suppose...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Thu 11 Jul 2013, 11:17 am

Alexander S Hidell, Jr seems to have been an engineer in the Merchant Marines in 1939.
http://archive.org/stream/pacificmarinerev3639paci#page/n17/mode/2up/search/hidell

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

greg parker
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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by greg parker on Thu 11 Jul 2013, 2:48 pm

The Ed Forum material posted by Tom Scully led to some speculation that rabid Confederates may have been behind the assassination.

This was because Alexander Stephens Hidell was named after Alexander Stephens, the Confederate Vice President. Alexander Hidell's father, William Henry Hidell had been Stephen's secretary.

Is it another of those amazing coincidences then that the Chapter President of the FPCC was named as one Alex Hidell with Oswald named as secretary?

Stephens had started out as a Whig but became a Democrat.

The issue which divided those parties was the belief in Manifest Destiny... defined as...  
1. The special virtues of the American people and their institutions; 2. America's mission to redeem and remake the world in the image of America; 3. A divine destiny under God's direction to accomplish this wonderful task.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
The Whigs were agin... the Dems... for...

The issue with Cuba - the one that the FPCC most concerned itself with at least, was US policies interfering in Cuba's right to exist on its own terms.

Some more from wiki:

Manifest destiny provided the rhetorical tone for the largest acquisition of U.S. territory. It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico and it was also used to divide half of Oregon with Great Britain. But Manifest destiny always limped along because of its internal limitations and the issue of slavery, said Merk. It never became a national priority. By 1843 John Quincy Adams, originally a major supporter, had changed his mind and repudiated Manifest Destiny because it meant the expansion of slavery in Texas.[4]
Stephens was joining the Dems for the same reasons Adams was leaving...

So to try and extract a simple southern racist/states rights theory from the leads Tom produced may prove a bit too simple... too pat...

Oswald himself stated verbally and in writing that a motivating forces was his stand against US imperialism.

And just on the Whigs... they were supported by famed newspaper editor Horace Greeley who once used Karl Marx as a European correspondent. 

I should find my material on Horace and post in a separate thread...

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Fri 12 Jul 2013, 7:30 am

Greg, that's some great research by you and Tom.

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sat 13 Jul 2013, 6:26 am

From the following Baylor file:

“FPCC handbills distributed by Oswald bore the name of ‘A.J Hidell, P.O Box 30016’, which box was determined to be nonexistent.  Cuban sources at New Orleans have no pertinent information regarding anyone named HIDELL and there is no record of any such name in the New Orleans directory or from credit sources. No activity of subject organization observed since 8/16/63.”


http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/11979/rec/24

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Tue 30 Jul 2013, 5:54 am

According to the information on page 2 of the following Baylor file, Harry Holmes was Dallas T-2:
 
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/52291/rec/6

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Faroe Islander on Sat 05 Nov 2016, 5:39 am

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/National%20Enquirer%20FBI%20Records%20From%201-8-78%20Releases/Item%2005.pdf

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by barto on Sat 05 Nov 2016, 8:40 am

Nice find FI, I had not seen this before.
Thank you!

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Faroe Islander on Sat 05 Nov 2016, 8:57 am

thank you Barto
I had never seen this before either, I was looking for something else when I found this and by now I can see when I read something "new" or something I have not seen before...

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 4:16 pm

Aloha,

Odd thought I had reading the link by Faroe.

Did he grab the Po Box key which was found on his person from the rooming house, or did he have it in hand everywhere he went, a loose key in hand / pocket...?

Change of clothes would require not only the key but the bus transfer to be swapped over to new clothes.

Wouldn't the key be found in the wallet?
Was it? I didn't think it was among the wallet content.

Carry on,
Cheers, Ed

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 4:52 pm

Outstanding work on finding this insertion Greg!

So much seems altered when examined, just like the time of death for Tippit.
Almost all documents were edited to adjust that time.

And this Quigley Down Under docu-drama is the typical mo for a frame up.

The lack of Hidell going out over the radio from either the Tippit scene wallet find, or the supposed wallet with two names Hidell/Oswald.
The lack of anyone saying HIDELL upon the arrest or any reasonable time thereafter beggars belief.

The Walter Potts allegation the DPD went to the rooming house to search for an Oswald or Hidell is not supported by Roberts or Johnson's statements which say only Lee Harvey Oswald was the suspect roomer they asked for. Potts said this Oswald/Hidell info came from Fritz.
The only card Fritz would be questioning Oswald about on Saturday would be the NO FPCC card with AJ Hidell signature as Chapter President.



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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 5:03 pm


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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 5:09 pm

H dell is what I see when I remove the l and d from below.


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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 5:15 pm


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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 6:45 pm

Was thinking of Robert Oswald as the SGT in the Marines... and the W.S. was crossed out but later line was extended/ maybe?

But anyhow, (double oswald?) don't show this to H&L fans.


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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Mon 07 Nov 2016, 7:40 pm

"WILLIAM STOUT OSWALD, III, who is a school teacher
in Metairie, and has some responsible position in one of the
military reserve units."

Which branch?

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by barto on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 4:52 am

Ed. Ledoux wrote:

I read Hidell

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

Post by Ed. Ledoux on Tue 08 Nov 2016, 7:32 am

As I do too

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Re: Hidell: the frame was bold and ruthless

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