Which came first?

@Steve_Thomas started this promising thread at the Thirteen Inch Head forum, but it has now been taken over by the Two Oswald clowns.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27729-which-came-first-the-bus-or-the-rambler/

Steve points out the match between the Batchelor report and Holmes' report on what Oswald said during interrogation. These reports together suggest Oswald left at around 12:50. Steve adds "It has always surprised me, not that Oswald left the TSBD so quickly, but that he hung around so long."

It is no surprise at all if he was totally innocent and clueless about being framed.

The fact is that Truly could not report him missing until 12:45 when the lunch break officially ended. Ochus Campbell let that cat of of the bag in a media interview.

The New York Herald Tribune 11/23/63:
"Shortly after the shooting we raced back into the building. We had been outside watching the parade. We saw him (Oswald) in a small storage room on the ground floor. Then we noticed he was gone.” Mr Campbell added: “Of course he and the others were on their lunch hour but he did not have permission to leave the building and we haven’t seen him since.”

No one needed permission to leave the building during the lunch break which was 12 noon to 12:45... but if you were not back in the building by 12:45 - you could certainly be reported as "missing without permission". 

The timing of Kaminski and Truly setting up their checkpoint is just after the end of the lunchbreak, and I do not think that is coincidence.

Edited to clean up typos and to add that they could not have him reported missing DURING the lunchbreak, not only because he was allowed to leave the building at that time, but also because this actually gives him a potential alibi, or at least adds an extra layer of complication to making up a "guilty" narrative.

Good point, Greg.

Hargrove couldn't help himself, could he? I bet he wishes Butler would just go away and find a new hobby. How does he hope to get new recruits to his cult when his most vocal supporter is someone like John 'back-to-front cars' Butler?

I like your Horne comment too:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2565-douglas-p-horne

Butler's ramblings make Hargrove and Armstrong seem quite rational in comparison.

Greg,

Nor could he have been boarding a bus at 12:39, as Bugliosi suggested.

Steve Thomas

The irony of this important observation is that what is really common sense is rendered brilliant (and it is) in the face of all the propaganda, brainwashing, and hysteria surrounding these relatively simple matters. Every time something like this does come to light though, it always enures to Oswald's innocence.

All credit to Steve Thomas for bringing this to light and to Greg for highlighting it further since I would not have seen it otherwise.

Edit: OMG. Just read the EF thread. Those jackasses love to take a crap all over a perfectly good thread don't they? Disgusting.

It's called "Making a Murderer" - The Prequel. This kind of stuff (Credit; Steve and Greg) is outrageous. It's so common place in this case it's obscene. To think this is how easily they manipulated the narrative. This along with many other clues highlights how Truly must have played a role in the framing of Oswald. As Steve rightly points out how could Oswald have possibly been boarding a bus when they claimed he had at 12:39pm. It's as Lee Farley wrote- the whole thing is just a house of cards.

The fact is that Truly could not report him missing until 12:45 when the lunch break officially ended. Ochus Campbell let that cat of of the bag in a media interview.


Yes he did. This was reported by Campbell to a reporter on the 22/11/63 - that's important. Because we now know this information was quickly buried over the ensuing days, weeks and months.

Steve Thomas wrote:Greg,

Nor could he have been boarding a bus at 12:39, as Bugliosi suggested.

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Not that the bus and cab story needed any more stakes through the heart, but this is certainly another one.

I have searched high and low for Kaminski's statement of duties for Nov 22. Seems everyone made one except him - or I have not looked in the right places. 

I do recall reading a report years ago saying that he was demoted or at least tossed out of the vice squad some time after the assassination, but have not yet relocated it.

Vinny wrote:Butler's ramblings make Hargrove and Armstrong seem quite rational in comparison.

LOL.

'fess up. Who hit the  WFT button? I kinda agree with Vinny here. 

greg_parker wrote:

Vinny wrote:Butler's ramblings make Hargrove and Armstrong seem quite rational in comparison.

LOL.

'fess up. Who hit the  WFT button? I kinda agree with Vinny here. 

Ooops! It was me. Must have been the phone hitting the bottle and swaying a bit, causing me to hit the wrong one. Have now unWTF it.  Sorry about that Vinny. Carry on!

No worries, Greg.

greg_parker wrote:

Steve Thomas wrote:Greg,

Nor could he have been boarding a bus at 12:39, as Bugliosi suggested.

Steve Thomas

Steve,


I have searched high and low for Kaminski's statement of duties for Nov 22. Seems everyone made one except him - or I have not looked in the right places. 

I do recall reading a report years ago saying that he was demoted or at least tossed out of the vice squad some time after the assassination, but have not yet relocated it.

Greg,
If you ever find that report of Kaminsky being drummed out of the Vice Squad, please let me know.

Back in 2018, I wrote an essay in the Education Forum entitled, Where Was Bob Carroll?


When Bob Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964, he told them:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm


Mr. Carroll: “Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.”




https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
Page 4.

DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=431


Captain Perdue Lawrence testified before the Warren Commission on July 24, 1964. He was the Captain of the DPD' Traffic Division's Accident Prevention Bureau. He was being questioned about the security measures for JFK's visit. W.P. “Pat” Gannaway was the Captain of the Special Service Bureau. During his testimony, he (Lawrence) stressed several times that his role was to keep the motorcade flowing. Actual security being provided against threats to the President would be coming from someone else.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lawrence.htm


Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then Chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?
Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.


“I assume that some instructions have been given to some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my assumption that this was a part of the assignments given.”


https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190029/m1/1/


This memo is also in the DPD Archives JFK Collection
On December 11, 1963, Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky wrote a memo to Captain Gannaway of the Special Service Bureau. In that memo he wrote,
“Sir: On November 22, 1963, the following Special Service men where(sic) assigned to work the Presidential motorcade. All the men had assignments on Main St. The following is a list of the men and the locations they worked:


B.K. Carroll 1100 block Main
K.E. Lyon 1700 block Main


H.R. Arnold was supposed to have been in the 700 block per Kaminsky's memo. No report of his duties on the 22^nd are in the DPD Archives, and he did not testify to the WC. The 700 block in Carroll's WC testimony is not a mistake, because he told WC Counsel Joseph Ball that this was three to four blocks from the intersection of Main and Houston.
Kaminskyis writing this memo to Gannaway, Gannaway was in charge of the security at the Trade Mart. Had he delegated responsibility for security on Main St. to Kaminsky? And was Kaminsky responsibe for briefing the Detectives?


Captain Gannaway had assigned himself to the Trade Mart.


DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=431


2) Where was Bob Carroll?


When Bob Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964, he told them:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm


Mr. Carroll: “Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.” On November 22^nd, he was serving in the Administrative Section as shown on his after-action report in the DPD Archives.


Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.
Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Along the curb - did you stand along the sidewalk?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.


Carroll was actually in a bar when he heard that JFK had been shot.
“Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it - they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office...”
He commandeered a car and went down to the TSBD where he participated in a search of the basement.


“The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.”


If Carroll had been assigned to the 1100 block of Main, why did he tell the Warren Commission he had been assigned to the 700 block? If he was assigned to the 700 block, what happened to H.R. Arnold?
Did they trade places? If they didn't, who was providing security in the 1100 block?


DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 28
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217801#relPageId=313


Memo from K.E. Lyon to Chief Curry dated December 4, 1963. Lyon was a Patrolman on TDY assignment to the Vice Section of the Special Service Bureau. However, Lyon is not listed in the patrolmen assigned to the Special Service Bureau in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002 - https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf


“On November 22, 1963 at approximately 2:00 PM, Detective B.K. Carroll and I were instructed by Lieutenant E. Kaminsky to go to the Oak Cliff area where Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot.”
K.E. Lyon was in the squad car bringing Oswald back to the station from the Theater. Lyon is listed as one of the arresting officers on Oswald's Arrest Report.


He's a little off on his time. By 2:00 PM, Oswald had already been arrested and brought back to the station.


DPD Archives, Box 4, Folder# 2, Item# 52
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217803#relPageId=249


Bob K. Carroll was a Detective in the Administrative Section of the Special Service Bureau. In a signed memo to Chief Curry, he wrote: “At approximately 2:00PM this date the undersigned officer were (sic) enroute to the vicinity of the 300 block of West Jefferson to aid in the search of the killer of Officer J.D. Tippit.” (Though the memo is undated, he writes “this date”, so it must have been written on the 22^nd.)


Lyon makes the same mistake on time in his memo of December 4^th as Carroll did in his memo of November 22^nd. They also both spell Gerald Hill's name as “Jerry” Hill.


So, by 2:00PM, Kaminsky has left the TSBD where Lumpkin had stationed him at the front door collecting names, and had returned to Headquarters where he was able to instruct Carroll and Lyon to proceed to Oak Cliff. Kaminsky was reporting to Gannaway where Detectives had been placed along Main St. It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD. It was Kaminsky who Carroll and Lyon went to when they wanted to go search for Tippit's killer. Was Kamonsky's role on the 22^nd a larger one than we knew?


Kaminski is also the Officer who was given the jacket found by James Larue on Industrial Ave. under the Ft. Worth Turnpike. (DPD Archives Box 4, Folder# 3, Item# 26, page 3)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217803#relPageId=330




Carroll put Oswald in car# 226.
DPD Archives, Box2, Folder# 7, Item# 12
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217801#relPageId=282


From the Dallas Dispatch Tapes:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
1:53 PM:
Dispatcher: Where is he (Oswald)? Who's Got him?
550/2 (Gerald Hill): Special Service unit is with us also. We're in his car, 492. (492 is a Special Service Bureau car).

Steve Thomas

Steve Thomas wrote:

greg_parker wrote:

Steve Thomas wrote:Greg,

Nor could he have been boarding a bus at 12:39, as Bugliosi suggested.

Steve Thomas

Steve,


I have searched high and low for Kaminski's statement of duties for Nov 22. Seems everyone made one except him - or I have not looked in the right places. 

I do recall reading a report years ago saying that he was demoted or at least tossed out of the vice squad some time after the assassination, but have not yet relocated it.

Greg,
If you ever find that report of Kaminsky being drummed out of the Vice Squad, please let me know.

Back in 2018, I wrote an essay in the Education Forum entitled, Where Was Bob Carroll?

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/24568-where-was-bob-carroll/#comment-367998

In it, I explored a little bit of Kamisnky's role on the 22nd.

In the 1950's and 60's, Police Departments around the country formed what they called, Red Squads. These Red Squads had some special areas of responsibility. One was investigations of non-Mafia related cases involving organized crime (like narcotics, gambling, and prostitution). Another area was providing extra security for visiting VIP's.

You can see this reflected in Bob Carroll's testimony to the Warren Commission:

When Bob Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964, he told them:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm


Mr. Carroll: “Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.”

In Dallas, their Red Squad was called the Special Service Bureau. It was Captained by Pat Gannaway, and he reported directly to the Chief of Police, Jesse Curry. Erich Kaminsky was a Lieutenant in that Special Service Bureau.

Jack Revill and F.I. Cornwall were fellow Lieutenants.

See Batchelor's Exhibit# 5002

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf
Page 4.

 (Cornwall would later play a major part in the DPD’s internal investigation into how Ruby got into the basement on 11/24/63).

During JFK's visit to Dallas, Pt Gannaway assigned himself as the Head of Security at the Trade Mart.

DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=431

He delegated responsibility for security along the parade route to Erich Kaminsky.

Captain Perdue Lawrence testified before the Warren Commission on July 24, 1964. He was the Captain of the DPD' Traffic Division's Accident Prevention Bureau. He was being questioned about the security measures for JFK's visit. W.P. “Pat” Gannaway was the Captain of the Special Service Bureau. During his testimony, he (Lawrence) stressed several times that his role was to keep the motorcade flowing. Actual security being provided against threats to the President would be coming from someone else.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lawrence.htm


Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?
Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then Chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?
Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.


“I assume that some instructions have been given to some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my assumption that this was a part of the assignments given.”


https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190029/m1/1/


This memo is also in the DPD Archives JFK Collection
On December 11, 1963, Lieutenant Erich Kaminsky wrote a memo to Captain Gannaway of the Special Service Bureau. In that memo he wrote,
“Sir: On November 22, 1963, the following Special Service men where(sic) assigned to work the Presidential motorcade. All the men had assignments on Main St. The following is a list of the men and the locations they worked:


B.K. Carroll 1100 block Main
K.E. Lyon 1700 block Main


H.R. Arnold was supposed to have been in the 700 block per Kaminsky's memo. No report of his duties on the 22^nd are in the DPD Archives, and he did not testify to the WC. The 700 block in Carroll's WC testimony is not a mistake, because he told WC Counsel Joseph Ball that this was three to four blocks from the intersection of Main and Houston.
Kaminskyis writing this memo to Gannaway, Gannaway was in charge of the security at the Trade Mart. Had he delegated responsibility for security on Main St. to Kaminsky? And was Kaminsky responsibe for briefing the Detectives?


Captain Gannaway had assigned himself to the Trade Mart.


DPD Archives, Box 1, Folder# 11, Item# 8
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217800#relPageId=431


2) Where was Bob Carroll?


When Bob Carroll testified to the WC on April 3, 1964, he told them:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/carroll.htm


Mr. Carroll: “Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.” On November 22^nd, he was serving in the Administrative Section as shown on his after-action report in the DPD Archives.


Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.
Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.
Mr. BALL. Along the curb - did you stand along the sidewalk?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.


Carroll was actually in a bar when he heard that JFK had been shot.
“Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it - they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office...”
He commandeered a car and went down to the TSBD where he participated in a search of the basement.


“The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.”


If Carroll had been assigned to the 1100 block of Main, why did he tell the Warren Commission he had been assigned to the 700 block? If he was assigned to the 700 block, what happened to H.R. Arnold?
Did they trade places? If they didn't, who was providing security in the 1100 block?


DPD Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7, Item# 28
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217801#relPageId=313


Memo from K.E. Lyon to Chief Curry dated December 4, 1963. Lyon was a Patrolman on TDY assignment to the Vice Section of the Special Service Bureau. However, Lyon is not listed in the patrolmen assigned to the Special Service Bureau in Batchelor's Exhibit 5002 - https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf


“On November 22, 1963 at approximately 2:00 PM, Detective B.K. Carroll and I were instructed by Lieutenant E. Kaminsky to go to the Oak Cliff area where Officer J.D. Tippit had been shot.”
K.E. Lyon was in the squad car bringing Oswald back to the station from the Theater. Lyon is listed as one of the arresting officers on Oswald's Arrest Report.


He's a little off on his time. By 2:00 PM, Oswald had already been arrested and brought back to the station.


DPD Archives, Box 4, Folder# 2, Item# 52
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217803#relPageId=249


Bob K. Carroll was a Detective in the Administrative Section of the Special Service Bureau. In a signed memo to Chief Curry, he wrote: “At approximately 2:00PM this date the undersigned officer were (sic) enroute to the vicinity of the 300 block of West Jefferson to aid in the search of the killer of Officer J.D. Tippit.” (Though the memo is undated, he writes “this date”, so it must have been written on the 22^nd.)


Lyon makes the same mistake on time in his memo of December 4^th as Carroll did in his memo of November 22^nd. They also both spell Gerald Hill's name as “Jerry” Hill.


So, by 2:00PM, Kaminsky has left the TSBD where Lumpkin had stationed him at the front door collecting names, and had returned to Headquarters where he was able to instruct Carroll and Lyon to proceed to Oak Cliff. Kaminsky was reporting to Gannaway where Detectives had been placed along Main St. It was Kaminsky who Deputy Chief Lumpkin had positioned at the front door of the TSBD. It was Kaminsky who Carroll and Lyon went to when they wanted to go search for Tippit's killer. Was Kamonsky's role on the 22^nd a larger one than we knew?


Kaminski is also the Officer who was given the jacket found by James Larue on Industrial Ave. under the Ft. Worth Turnpike. (DPD Archives Box 4, Folder# 3, Item# 26, page 3)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217803#relPageId=330




Carroll put Oswald in car# 226.
DPD Archives, Box2, Folder# 7, Item# 12
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=217801#relPageId=282


From the Dallas Dispatch Tapes:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm
1:53 PM:
Dispatcher: Where is he (Oswald)? Who's Got him?
550/2 (Gerald Hill): Special Service unit is with us also. We're in his car, 492. (492 is a Special Service Bureau car).

Steve Thomas

Steve, am beginning to think I have confused Kaminski in my memory with someone else who got demoted because I cannot find what I thought I recalled. Searches are made more difficult because both first and surname are under multiple spellings. 

I always had the inpression that they were not at all worried about a potential assassin on the route. The were exlusively zeroed in on protesters. Security had little to do with protecting Kennedy from snipers and everything to do with protecting Dallas from further embarrassment ala the Stephenson incident.

Heads up on McAdams site. The testimony is no longer there.

Here is a usable link:  
https://web.archive.org/web/20190412100151/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olds.htm

greg_parker wrote:

Heads up on McAdams site. The testimony is no longer there.

Here is a usable link:  
https://web.archive.org/web/20190412100151/http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/olds.htm

Greg,

Thanks.
The old url was shifted to:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/wit.htm

I will correct my notes.
Thank you
Steve Thomas

Ah, just shifted? Thank you

After Mcadams died his entire website was moved over to a new host.

Steve, according to Carroll they requested permission to go to Oak Cliff from an unnamed officer.

According to Lyons, Kaminski ordered them to go.

As you say, it had to be before the time they claim, so I can't see how it could be Kaminski ordering them unless they swung by the TSBD because Kaminski was still on site taking to reporters that afternoon. 

And that is what is stated in this posted by Ed in his Kaminski thread. Not sure but it is possibly from one of the books filled with witness interviews.

Greg,

You're right. 
In Carroll's WC testimony, he says that while still at the Depository, he learned about Tippit's shooting, and using one of the phones in an upstairs office, called into Dispatch to get the details.
After learning what was up, he got permission to go to Oak Cliff. I would assume that permission was given by his superior in the Special Service Bureau, Erich Kaminsky.
-QUOTE -
":but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement Well, I went into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.
- ENDQUOTE -
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/carroll.htm


Kaminsky must still have been at the Depository.


Steve Thomas