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A long package...

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A long package...

Post by ianlloyd on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 4:51 pm

Following his attendance at the interview of Oswald on the morning of the 24th, Harry Holmes wrote a "Memorandum of Interview" - this is contained within the WC exhibit CE2064 - http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2064.pdf.

There is a paragraph in the memorandum that reads thus:

When asked if he didn’t bring a sack with him the next morning to work, he stated that he did, and when asked as to the contents of the sack, he stated that it contained his lunch. Then when asked to the size or shape of the sack, he said, ‘Oh, I don’t recall, it may have been a small sack or a large sack, you don’t always find one that just fits your sandwiches. When asked as to where he placed the sack when he got into the car, he said in his lap, or possibly the front seat beside him, as he always did because he didn’t want to get it crushed. He denied that he placed any package in the back seat. When advised that the driver stated that he had brought out a long parcel and placed it in the back seat, he stated, ‘Oh, he must be mistaken or else thinking about some other time when he picked me up'.
 

Did Oswald indirectly admit that he had taken a long package to work with him sometime prior to the 22nd that he'd placed on the back seat of Frazier's car?

Hmmm...

[Edited minor typos]

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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 1:06 am

Did Oswald indirectly admit that he had taken a long package to work with him sometime prior to the 22nd that he'd placed on the back seat of Frazier's car?
 
It sure sounds like it, doesn't it. Maybe he did, but I don't think it had anything to do with the President's assassination.

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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 6:44 am

It depends on how accurately Oswald is being quoted. "Some other time", indicates to me that there were multiple instances of bringing a "long package and placing it on the back seat". If there only been one such instance, I would expect a more specific answer.

If was being accurately quoted AND there were no previous occasions when he did it, then it indicates to me, he knew exactly what was being alluded to and he was being very cagey with his response. 

Is it also possible he said "that was another time" or similar, indicating one particular instance? If so, that might be where Frazier got his curtain rod story... Oswald did take curtain rods... on a previous occasion...

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Re: A long package...

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:16 am

Wouldn't Oswald have taken a bag with him to the Paine residence containing clothes for the weekends if he was allegedly staying in some rooming house somewhere?

And with that in mind, why the fuck would he make a paper bag (that had the shape of a rifle) instead of taking the fucking thing in a canvas duffle bag?  FFS!

The whole paper bag scenario is only believable if you're a complete idiot, surely?  Who makes a rifle case out of paper and then leaves it behind - - with the shells?  Shocked


Last edited by Lee David Farley on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:26 am

I'm more than happy to believe that Oswald never had a paper bag with him, Lee. But my current line of thinking is that he had his lunch inside of it.

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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:29 am

Speaking of idiocy, what kind of an idiot would order a rifle using an alias (to hide the fact he ordered one) and have it delivered to his PO box under his real name LOL!

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Re: A long package...

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:43 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:I'm more than happy to believe that Oswald never had a paper bag with him, Lee. But my current line of thinking is that he had his lunch inside of it.

 Hasan,

I'm with you.  I think it possible, probable and highly likely it was an oversized U.S. grocery bag containing his lunch.  My point is, the story as told is complete lunacy. 

How lucky was this guy prior to the assassination before becoming the unluckiest man alive after it?

He makes a bag to hide the rifle and manages to get the paper without anyone knowing he's taken it.  He manages to only get one palm print on the whole surface of the damn thing while he makes it and no one sees or hears him.  He walks to Frazier's car the next morning and no one other that Frazier's sister sees him approach the car with it and she thinks it's smaller than the rifle.  Frazier is on record stating he always locked his car door and then when pressed during his HSCA testimony with the fundamental question "how the fuck did Oswald get in there then" Frazier then claims one of the back door locks was broken - - which kinda defeats the purpose of locking it - - but lucky Oswald manages to gain access.  Then when they arrive at work Frazier just happens to want to juice up his car battery allowing Oswald the opportunity to walk to the TSBD on his own and get in and hide the fucking thing without anyone seeing him with it. He then puts the rifle back together with nothing more than a dime - - who knows when and how?  He manages to hide in the sixth floor while BRW is gorging his chicken down his neck which leaves him a window of opportunity of about 3 minutes and lucks out when Williams fucks off downstairs.  He then goes through the steepest learning curve in human history by missing the fucking street with the first shot, hitting JFK and Connally with the second and blowing the President's brains out with the third.  He manages to wipe the rifle down to one palm print, the same as the bag and one of the boxes, and floats across the floor, unseen by Styles and Adams.  

To compare this to his luck 45 minutes later and you have the dichotomy of dichotomies.

I cannot for the life of me understand why the fuck anyone would make a rifle bag out of paper

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Re: A long package...

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 7:44 am

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Speaking of idiocy, what kind of an idiot would order a rifle using an alias (to hide the fact he ordered one) and have it delivered to his PO box under his real name LOL!

 Once again, he lucked out because he should never have been able to pick it up and Harry Holmes must have been having an off day watching his P.O. Box What the?

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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 8:03 am

I totally agree with you, Lee. Also, how incredibly lucky he was that the money order was deposited; without a single bank stamp on the back of it!

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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 8:36 am

Lee David Farley wrote:Wouldn't Oswald have taken a bag with him to the Paine residence containing clothes for the weekends if he was allegedly staying in some rooming house somewhere?

Lee, how dare you ask a question that has never been asked before!

Yes, I do believe that makes perfect sense. But it doesn't really answer Ian's question about Oswald's alleged comment. If he took a bag of clothes on the Thursday and took the bag back with him Friday morning, then ( a ) why not say so?  ( b ) why no mention of the bag taken TO the Paine residence on Thursday and ( c ) why no mention of anyone seeing him with said bag walking into/out of - or actually inside - the TSBD?
 

And with that in mind, why the fuck would he make a paper bag (that had the shape of a rifle) instead of taking the fucking thing in a canvas duffle bag?  FFS!

This bag had special shape-shifting qualities. It took the shape of lunch to some and to others as curtain rods or spades and tent pegs.  Only to the police did it take the shape of a rifle.

I think I've just cracked the case! Oswald was framed by a shape-shifting alien bag which appeared to him as a small five and dime grocery sack!


The whole paper bag scenario is only believable if you're a complete idiot, surely?  Who makes a rifle case out of paper and then leaves it behind - - with the shells?  Shocked

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A long package...

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 8:55 am

greg parker wrote:
Lee David Farley wrote:Wouldn't Oswald have taken a bag with him to the Paine residence containing clothes for the weekends if he was allegedly staying in some rooming house somewhere?

Lee, how dare you ask a question that has never been asked before!

Yes, I do believe that makes perfect sense. But it doesn't really answer Ian's question about Oswald's alleged comment. If he took a bag of clothes on the Thursday and took the bag back with him Friday morning, then ( a ) why not say so?  ( b ) why no mention of the bag taken TO the Paine residence on Thursday and ( c ) why no mention of anyone seeing him with said bag walking into/out of - or actually inside - the TSBD?
 

And with that in mind, why the fuck would he make a paper bag (that had the shape of a rifle) instead of taking the fucking thing in a canvas duffle bag?  FFS!

This bag had special shape-shifting qualities. It took the shape of lunch to some and to others as curtain rods or spades and tent pegs.  Only to the police did it take the shape of a rifle.

I think I've just cracked the case! Oswald was framed by a shape-shifting alien bag which appeared to him as a small five and dime grocery sack!


The whole paper bag scenario is only believable if you're a complete idiot, surely?  Who makes a rifle case out of paper and then leaves it behind - - with the shells?  Shocked

 I'll ensure I stick to questions that have been asked a minimum of 2,547 times in future alien 

What I meant by Oswald taking a bag to work containing clothes was on the other weekends he allegedly stayed in Irving.  I guess if the trip on November 21st was spur of the moment then I can accept no bag.  But if Oswald's alleged statement to Holmes has any basis in fact, and isn't just more HDH bullshit, then could Oswald have meant Frazier may have given him a lift with a bag (containing clothes) some other time?

From memory, I don't think anybody at the TSBD was ever asked if they ever saw him with a bag on any other day other than November 22nd, were they, Greg?  Is Paine or Marina on record stating he arrived with a bag for any of his weekends?

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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:49 am

Mr. JENNER - Yes, I am interested, and I would like to stick with the duffel-bags for a moment. Was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard---- 
Mrs. PAINE - I assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded. 
------------------------------
Mr. JENNER - Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing. 
Mrs. PAINE - No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday. 
Mr. JENNER - So that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry? 
Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. 
Mr. JENNER - At least during the time that Marina was with you. 
Mrs. PAINE - At least during the fall; yes. 


 

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:36 am

Why has it taken me 13 years for this to sink in? 

Thank you Ian for raising the issue. Thanks Lee for (possibly*) resolving it.

As I said in my initial post, if Oswald was being quoted accurately, he seemed to suggest there were multiple instances of bags to and from the Paine's via Buell's car.

And there it is - right there in Ruth's testimony...

Friday evening... dirty clothes taken to work, then to Irving... Monday morning, washed and ironed clothes taken to work, then to....wherever he really was living...

* The qualifier is because up till now I was harboring a deep suspicion that Oz was actually staying at the Paine's based on lack of real evidence for his living on N Beckley, a slew of otherwise inexplicable Irving sightings, and comments made by fellow employees which were suggestive of Buell taking Oz to work every day. If he was actually living at the Paine's, there'd be no need to take his washing anywhere.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Re: A long package...

Post by beowulf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 12:18 pm

"And with that in mind, why the fuck would he make a paper bag (that had the shape of a rifle) instead of taking the fucking thing in a canvas duffle bag?  FFS!"

That's a very good point. He's a Marine, he still has his seabag. When he picked up his rifle, he could have tossed the dissassembled parts in covered with clothes or random junk to hide the shape.  Instead he leaves his seabag at the Paines where the FBI finds it with his Minox camera inside. Dissembled rifle's longest piece is 34.8".  Navy/Marine seabags are 37" x 12" x 12".
https://www.atthefrontshop.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=USGMSB


My favorite "Just so" Oswald story is after he shoots at General Walker, he flees the scene (WITH rifle) by bus.

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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 1:22 pm

My favorite "Just so" Oswald story is after he shoots at General Walker, he flees the scene (WITH rifle) by bus.

I have that BS covered. As with the BY photos, and as they say in the classics, it's ... "based a true story..."
 
Answer in Chapter 5 Cool

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
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I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 6:53 pm

I have that BS covered. As with the BY photos, and as they say in the classics, it's ... "based a true story..."
 
Answer in Chapter 5 

Look forward to it, Greg. I have always wondered what the purpose of the Walker shooting really was.

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Re: A long package...

Post by greg parker on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 9:50 pm

Sorry Hasan -- I wasn't talking about the purpose of the shooting. Any ideas I have on that are speculative.

I was talking about the getaway bus.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
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            Billy Bragg
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 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
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Re: A long package...

Post by Guest on Wed 24 Jul 2013, 11:46 pm

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96062&relPageId=1
 
Above link to investigation of travelling bags that belonged to Oswald.  The FBI and subsequently the Warren Commission were incredibly interested in these bags.  They asked question after question of multiple witnesses as to whether they had seen Oswald in possession of them in a wide variety of locations.
 
As I suspected, no question was ever asked of Gladys Johnson, Marina Oswald or Ruth Paine as to whether Oswald ever left or arrived with either of these bags on his alleged weekend travels to and from 2515 West Fifth Street.  Conspicuous by its absence IMO.
 
Also of interest at the link below from the same document is this statement from Marina:
 
“MARINA was again questioned concerning the method of transportation of LEE HARVEY OSWALD to the PAINE house on his first visit after his Mexico City trip.  She said she recalled she previously had advised in an interview with the FBI that Mrs. PAINE had picked OSWALD up at the bus stop in Irving, Texas, after he telephoned the PAINE house and brought him to the PAINE house.  She said she cannot be definite in this, however, because she does recall that on one occasion when OSWALD caught a ride with a Negro person somewhere in Irving and was brought to the Paine house.  She said it was possible that Mrs. PAINE had not driven OSWALD from the bus stop in Irving to the PAINE house on the occasion of his first visit to the PAINE house after the Mexico trip.  She said she recalled on one occasion when OSWALD visited the PAINE house that Mrs. PAINE’s automobile was being repaired.  She said it was possible this was the same occasion that OSWALD had caught a ride with the Negro person.  She said, however, that she is not completely sure of this as she has no way of connecting the two incidents."
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=96062&relPageId=13

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Re: A long package...

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 5:21 am

greg parker wrote:Sorry Hasan -- I wasn't talking about the purpose of the shooting. Any ideas I have on that are speculative.

I was talking about the getaway bus.

Damn. I was hoping you had it figured out, Greg. In any event, I look forward to reading what you have to say about the so-called getaway bus.

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