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Prayer Man Poll

Page 2 of 7 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

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Who is Prayer Man?

2% 2% 
[ 1 ]
79% 79% 
[ 33 ]
2% 2% 
[ 1 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
10% 10% 
[ 4 ]
7% 7% 
[ 3 ]
 
Total Votes : 42

Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 4:21 am

It's quite telling to me that some people are voicing the opinion that the only argument Sean Murphy has concerning PM being Lee Oswald is the pixelated frames from a home movie film.

This isn't the case.  It was never the case.  It will never be the case.

Perfectly reasonable arguments were given to Robert Harris' questions.  However, they needn't have been because the answers already exist in Sean Murphy's original work over at the Education Forum.  I don't think there is a question or doubt that Sean didn't address.

So to pretend we're trying to ID the figure in the doorway from photos alone is complete nonsense.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 4:25 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:I personally liked Robert Harris' reply, and thought like he that it was an insult to be lumped in with McAdams & Von Pein simply because he had reservations about accepting Prayer Man as Oswald. It may have been an offhand remark, but remarks like that abound around here, where there is a tendency to gang-think behavior, discouraging independent thought & opinions.
He had "reservations?"
 
Robert told Greg "the simple fact is that you have no evidence at all, that Oswald was outside during the shooting." Robert makes it clear that he thinks PM was outside of the TSBD building. It follows, then, that Robert doesn't believe that Prayer Man is Oswald.

Reservations?
 
Most members here believe PM is Oswald. That belief didn't happen overnight. They had to be persuaded. Not with bullshit or harebrained theories but with facts and logic. You can follow the progression in the PM thread. (You did, didn't you?)
 
Once you are persuaded or believe something, that doesn't change just because the wind blows in somebody who throws up a few clods of testimony and tells you that you have no evidence. If you take that bait, you'll spend the rest of your life chasing your tail, perpetually going over ground that's already been covered. (I think this is Lee's main frustration.)
 
That's what bPetey and Billy Bubba tried to do here. Like zoo gorillas that throw feces at you, they throw facts at you. "What about this? *splat!* Ha ha ha! What about that? *splat!* Ha ha ha!" And what did these Bowery Boys primarily attack? The notion that Oswald was PM. It's a real hot button with the faithful.
 
I'm not saying it's not legitimate to have any reservations about PM or the 2nd Floor orgy—I don't think anybody here would say there's absolutely zero evidence for such a belief—but it's not only wrong to say there's no evidence for PM-Oswald, it's narrow minded.
 
The "gang-think" comment makes me bust a gut. Greg...Lee...Dan...Hasan...Albert...Terry...and so on...to say these guys are gang-bang-think-alikers is downright funny. This is the ONLY forum I chose to become a member of because of the freedom I felt to be able to express myself without scorn or ridicule (even when I'm occasionally deserving).
 
So far, so good.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 5:52 am

Seans analysis of the TSBD around the time of the shooting can be gauged by the almost total lack of LN activity during the thread. The frame is simply not clear enough for a definate identification, but he has certainly persuaded me that there is a very strong possibility that the figure is indeed Lee Oswald. Does it count as group think if i find Seans work compelling?.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 5:55 am

Greg, the person I'm referring to in the photo is in the background on the extreme right talking to a policeman. He's the Oswald lookalike and I didn't state nor intend to infer that any tramp looked like Oswald.

I was with the Prayer Man ID from the beginning, at Lancer in 2010. But have to acknowledge that there isn't enough to take it to the bank. One problem I reiterated for deepsnow earlier in this thread is that doubters won't accept photo-evidence that isn't unequivocal, and won't have the patience nor interest to listen to logic that eliminates all possible candidates but Oswald. What I drew from Robert Harris' post is that the lack of corroboration doesn't assist one bit in the PM ID as Oswald. You'd expect, or half-expect, one of the TSBD employees on the steps, or Oswald himself in the DPD hallways, to have mentioned it.

So one could even go with this fellow in the tramps photo as having actually been PM. I wouldn't myself, I don't see a strong enough resemblance to even the grainy Darnell image to say this fellow was up in the corner on the TSBD landing. But I'm saying a case could be made. And that doesn't strengthen the certitude of the photo ID of the Darnell image.

Stan, what I was alluding to in the gang-think comment is the me vs. the world scenario that has developed on the lunchroom thread. I should save further comments for the new & improved lunchroom thread, to discuss the new essays, when they appear. Lest I get angry and post a youtube of an enraged cougar.


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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Hasan Yusuf on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 6:13 am

"Lest I get angry and post a youtube of an enraged cougar."

Shove your videos where the sun don't shine.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:33 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:You'd expect, or half-expect, one of the TSBD employees on the steps, or Oswald himself in the DPD hallways, to have mentioned it.
I would've expected a lot of things to have happened with this case that didn't happen. But not this.
 
In the few minutes he had before the press, I WISH Oswald would have blurted out his entire alibi to the whole world. God, I wish it! But he didn't and I understand his not doing so.
 
Why do it? He had all the time in the world to tell his side of the story, didn't he? He was in protective custody, wasn't he? Was he stupid, or did he have enough sense to wait for the right time. His biggest shock, IMO, was that he was actually in custody. He wasn't thinking about his alibi.
 
He was an FBI/CIA informant. He wasn't trained to spill his guts like some Chatty Cathy doll at the pull of a string (assuming you believe he was on the government payroll). Maybe he still thought about keeping certain important operational details under wraps right up to the end. Just sit tight and keep your effen mouth shut for now. His alibi was the last thing he had to worry about.
 
This is speculation, I know. But "expecting" people to talk or do anything under certain situations is speculation too. You like your speculation. I like my mine. 

To me, Oswald not talking is perfectly reasonable.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Stan Dane on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:49 am

One more thing: 

No lone nutter would embrace my speculation.

Therefore I love it!

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by greg parker on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:09 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:Greg, the person I'm referring to in the photo is in the background on the extreme right talking to a policeman. He's the Oswald lookalike and I didn't state nor intend to infer that any tramp looked like Oswald.

I was with the Prayer Man ID from the beginning, at Lancer in 2010. But have to acknowledge that there isn't enough to take it to the bank. One problem I reiterated for deepsnow earlier in this thread is that doubters won't accept photo-evidence that isn't unequivocal, and won't have the patience nor interest to listen to logic that eliminates all possible candidates but Oswald. What I drew from Robert Harris' post is that the lack of corroboration doesn't assist one bit in the PM ID as Oswald. You'd expect, or half-expect, one of the TSBD employees on the steps, or Oswald himself in the DPD hallways, to have mentioned it.

So one could even go with this fellow in the tramps photo as having actually been PM. I wouldn't myself, I don't see a strong enough resemblance to even the grainy Darnell image to say this fellow was up in the corner on the TSBD landing. But I'm saying a case could be made. And that doesn't strengthen the certitude of the photo ID of the Darnell image.

Stan, what I was alluding to in the gang-think comment is the me vs. the world scenario that has developed on the lunchroom thread. I should save further comments for the new & improved lunchroom thread, to discuss the new essays, when they appear. Lest I get angry and post a youtube of an enraged cougar.

Okay. Sorry - have been up all night. Only half with it and forgot about the guy in the background. The two most logical contenders are Lovelady and Oswald. I don't think it rules Oswald out as PM at all and I believe the commonly accepted timing of that photo is crap. Read the testimony of Harkness. There is no way his actions as described from the time of the shots to the arrest of the tramps, took one and a half to two hours. 

I was privy to PM I think, before Sean went public with it. At that time, I was not convinced - despite wanting it to be him as validation of my conviction that the 2nd floor story was fiction. I was won over by the PM thread. Slowly and in line with the building of Sean's case which was far more detailed than I initially discussed it with him.

I started putting your essay up, but haven't had time to finish. Hopefully later today.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 9:52 am

Stan Dane wrote:One more thing: 

No lone nutter would embrace my speculation.

Therefore I love it!

And I love it too, for the same reason.

Oswald was more concerned about baby Junie having new shoes than almost anything else. He told his wife he was fine and being treated well. He mentioned baby shoes to his mother, Marina, his brother, and Ruth Paine, I believe.

Alibi?

Who had the time?

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by greg parker on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 11:57 am

I believe our very own Goodbye Mr Chips has some very interesting ideas about this - ones that I am now fully embracing after a generous period of allowing such detritus to roll around in the scull cavity.

It really is all about shoes.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:28 pm

Stan Dane wrote:
Richard Gilbride wrote:You'd expect, or half-expect, one of the TSBD employees on the steps, or Oswald himself in the DPD hallways, to have mentioned it.
I would've expected a lot of things to have happened with this case that didn't happen. But not this.
 
In the few minutes he had before the press, I WISH Oswald would have blurted out his entire alibi to the whole world. God, I wish it! But he didn't and I understand his not doing so.
 
Why do it? He had all the time in the world to tell his side of the story, didn't he? He was in protective custody, wasn't he? Was he stupid, or did he have enough sense to wait for the right time. His biggest shock, IMO, was that he was actually in custody. He wasn't thinking about his alibi.
 
He was an FBI/CIA informant. He wasn't trained to spill his guts like some Chatty Cathy doll at the pull of a string (assuming you believe he was on the government payroll). Maybe he still thought about keeping certain important operational details under wraps right up to the end. Just sit tight and keep your effen mouth shut for now. His alibi was the last thing he had to worry about.
 
This is speculation, I know. But "expecting" people to talk or do anything under certain situations is speculation too. You like your speculation. I like my mine. 

To me, Oswald not talking is perfectly reasonable.

This goes to the heart of Richard's nonsense, Stan.

Oswald not blurting out his alibi during the midnight press conference or in the hallway has to also presuppose that Oswald somehow knew he would be dead less than 36 hours later whilst in the custody of the people paid to protect him.

He only found out he had been charged during the press conference and you can see his face deflate like he's just been hit with a hammer.  I'm sure his alibi, whatever that alibi may have been, was furtherst from his mind at that point.  His almost explosive reaction in the hallway immediately after when he shouted he had only been taken in because he had lived in the Soviet Union and was "...just a patsy" gives us an interesting insight into the place where Oswald's mind went and it was not to any alibi but very much big picture reasons as to why he was now in the situation he was in.

He knew sod all as to what was being written outside of the Homicide Office.  

"I don't know what dispatches you people have been given, but I EMPHATICALLY deny these charges."

How many details did Oswald have concerning the mechanics of the assassination upon his arrest and subsequent custody?  I'm guessing virtually none.  I very much doubt Fritz and his boys gave Lee any details whatsoever so he was probably clueless about how it occurred.

It's a damn shame that Sean's work was tainted by the insanity of Fetzer and Cinque prior to the interest in PM developing because there are elements of the Altgens 6 tomfoolery that have unfortunately permeated Sean's work and other people's minds concerning this as we saw in the comments section of Greg's article in his local newspaper.

For certain individuals to spew allegations of "group think" and "narrow mindedness" against people who have pieced this thing together in minute detail is insulting beyond words.

Yeah, we have to speculate regarding certain things - on both sides of the argument - but there is a string of evidence that lends its support to Oswald watching the parade.  Far more than people are giving the credit for - - especially when they run their own unshakeable confidence in the correctness of their position that a black man shot the President of the United States.


Here is something to ponder for a minute.  If Baker, whilst driving down Houston Street did actually see pigeons flying off the roof of the TSBD immediately after the shots can we honestly believe the following:


a)  That he did not see Harold Norman hanging out of the fifth floor window looking up?
b)  That if he thought the shots came from the roof seven floors up in the air, as per his testimony, and if he was inside the TSBD in the very short period of time defined by the home movies, why the hell did he feel it necessary to follow a guy into a second floor lunchroom and stick his gun in his stomach?


The whole story, as written in the history books, is utter crap and that included the bogus lunchroom encounter.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by greg parker on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 9:04 pm

It's a damn shame that Sean's work was tainted by the insanity of Fetzer and Cinque prior to the interest in PM developing because there are elements of the Altgens 6 tomfoolery that have unfortunately permeated Sean's work and other people's minds concerning this as we saw in the comments section of Greg's article in his local newspaper.

Was speaking to Chuck Ochelli off air prior to broadcast earlier and one of the things he said to me was, (paraphrasing) I saw where you believe that stuff about Oswald on the steps in the photo and I'm going to have to disagree with you about that.

In the brief time I've known Chuck it has become clear he's no dummy, and has a good grasp of the case. My instincts told me he'd seen something (maybe the news article) just briefly and assumed it was to do with Altgens. I was right. I think he was quite relieved to find out I agree Altgens shows Lovelady, and this was from a different film showing a different individual. I think the relief was derived from understanding I'm not associated with the supporters of the doppleganger Lovelady theory.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 9:43 pm

greg parker wrote:
It's a damn shame that Sean's work was tainted by the insanity of Fetzer and Cinque prior to the interest in PM developing because there are elements of the Altgens 6 tomfoolery that have unfortunately permeated Sean's work and other people's minds concerning this as we saw in the comments section of Greg's article in his local newspaper.

Was speaking to Chuck Ochelli off air prior to broadcast earlier and one of the things he said to me was, (paraphrasing) I saw where you believe that stuff about Oswald on the steps in the photo and I'm going to have to disagree with you about that.

In the brief time I've known Chuck it has become clear he's no dummy, and has a good grasp of the case. My instincts told me he'd seen something (maybe the news article) just briefly and assumed it was to do with Altgens. I was right. I think he was quite relieved to find out I agree Altgens shows Lovelady, and this was from a different film showing a different individual. I think the relief was derived from understanding I'm not associated with the supporters of the doppleganger Lovelady theory.

I am amazed how many people are still trotting out the Altgens photo claiming it is Oswald. I had thought that chimera was settled decades ago. But I suppose with the lousy media coverage on the better work being done being difficult to find for so many people people are liable to believe anything.

A couple of months ago I came across a blog proclaiming "Proof of Oswald's innocence" and it was Altgens.

Pathetic. But what can we do but try and spread the word one person at a time.

I sure hope your interview can have some effect in this regard.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 10:09 pm

terlin wrote:
greg parker wrote:
It's a damn shame that Sean's work was tainted by the insanity of Fetzer and Cinque prior to the interest in PM developing because there are elements of the Altgens 6 tomfoolery that have unfortunately permeated Sean's work and other people's minds concerning this as we saw in the comments section of Greg's article in his local newspaper.

Was speaking to Chuck Ochelli off air prior to broadcast earlier and one of the things he said to me was, (paraphrasing) I saw where you believe that stuff about Oswald on the steps in the photo and I'm going to have to disagree with you about that.

In the brief time I've known Chuck it has become clear he's no dummy, and has a good grasp of the case. My instincts told me he'd seen something (maybe the news article) just briefly and assumed it was to do with Altgens. I was right. I think he was quite relieved to find out I agree Altgens shows Lovelady, and this was from a different film showing a different individual. I think the relief was derived from understanding I'm not associated with the supporters of the doppleganger Lovelady theory.

I am amazed how many people are still trotting out the Altgens photo claiming it is Oswald. I had thought that chimera was settled decades ago. But I suppose with the lousy media coverage on the better work being done being difficult to find for so many people people are liable to believe anything.

A couple of months ago I came across a blog proclaiming "Proof of Oswald's innocence" and it was Altgens.

Pathetic. But what can we do but try and spread the word one person at a time.

I sure hope your interview can have some effect in this regard.

Terry,

I think there is a possibility that the Altgens 6 photo and its history still bears relevance in all of this to some extent.

The FBI shit a brick when this photo surfaced and took it very seriously.

I've always had reservations about what it depicts and do actually believe it shows evidence of touching up.  The unfortunate situation that The Nutty Professor and Ralph Cinque, bullshitters extraordinaire, created around this photograph has turned any rational discussion of it, and its place in history, radioactive.  Fetzer et al have done the same thing with the Zapruder film.

But there do actually exist pertinent question about James Altgens most famous photograph.  There are copies of it printed in certain newspapers after the assassination that look a bit strange compared to the one we are all used to.  There does appear to be anomalies within it.  The negative appears to have long gone walkies.  

I agree it is Billy Lovelady.  My question is whether the photograph was interfered with to make it look more like Billy Lovelady and completely put to bed any speculation that it could have been Lee Oswald, especially now we know the distinct possibility exists that he may have been stood no more than six feet away?

After my long battles with Cinque I seem to have dispensed with all of the details I was once an expert on because never in all my life have I had to deal with anything like the absurdities that Cinque flung my way...

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 10:34 pm

Goodbye wrote:Terry,

I think there is a possibility that the Altgens 6 photo and its history still bears relevance in all of this to some extent.

The FBI shit a brick when this photo surfaced and took it very seriously.

I've always had reservations about what it depicts and do actually believe it shows evidence of touching up.  The unfortunate situation that The Nutty Professor and Ralph Cinque, bullshitters extraordinaire, created around this photograph has turned any rational discussion of it, and its place in history, radioactive.  Fetzer et al have done the same thing with the Zapruder film.

But there do actually exist pertinent question about James Altgens most famous photograph.  There are copies of it printed in certain newspapers after the assassination that look a bit strange compared to the one we are all used to.  There does appear to be anomalies within it.  The negative appears to have long gone walkies.  

I agree it is Billy Lovelady.  My question is whether the photograph was interfered with to make it look more like Billy Lovelady and completely put to bed any speculation that it could have been Lee Oswald, especially now we know the distinct possibility exists that he may have been stood no more than six feet away?

After my long battles with Cinque I seem to have dispensed with all of the details I was once an expert on because never in all my life have I had to deal with anything like the absurdities that Cinque flung my way...

Lee,

Thanks. I feel your pain in having to deal with Cinque. I have never had the "pleasure".

I had heard about alterations having been done to the photo but thought it was the usual BS fantastic claims people have made. Usually they imply it is still Oswald but his aspect has been altered to look like Lovelady, as you say.

But as we know it was Lovelady, what would be the point in messing with the film (and disappearing the negative)? The FBI was frantic for a few days when they thought it was LHO in the picture but pretty much nailed down the fact that is was not Oswald.

Do you have any notion why the film would be altered? It seems such an action would only be more misdirection.

And a further thanks for keeping up the work even in the face of such obnoxious opposition for years. I don't think I would have had the stamina!

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Albert Rossi on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 10:40 pm

I walked into the forum scene middle of last summer, so I really don't know the entire history of either Cinque/Fetzer on Altgens or Sean on the PM image, but stepping back from this I am wondering whether something a little more sinister might be afoot here.

Isn't it convenient that the pretty much dead controversy concerning the identification of the Altgens image as Lovelady is resurrected around the same time that one of the most extraordinary pieces of argumentation concerning the whereabouts of Oswald is emerging on a widely read forum?  A posteriori, one must admit (as many on this thread have noted) that this "coincidence" has pretty much successfully muddied the waters. 

But perhaps this coincidence can simply be written off as not so extraordinary, given the surge of activity leading up to the 50th anniversary.

When one constantly has counterintelligence on one's mind, it tends to color one's instincts, I admit.  But the whole business does seem a bit curious to me.  Is my sense of timing incorrect here?  Did the Cinque nonsense precede Sean's revelations?


Last edited by Albert Rossi on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 11:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : »Ex post facto« misused. Without my morning coffee, my head is in the sink.)

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Terry W. Martin on Sun 27 Apr 2014, 11:02 pm

Al,

I recall seeing the resurrection of the Altgens photo late last spring and figured it had to do with the increase in interest heading up to the 50th. I did not pay much attention to it.

Perhaps someone had wind what Sean was up to and was trying to derail it before it was even revealed. And sure, in Sean's presentation is not just about the picture but I should imagine most people won't spend the time to go through the evidence he has presented.

A picture is worth a thousand words and bashing a "front entrance picture" might have been all that was needed as a pre-emptive strike against Sean's front entrance picture.

Something stinks for sure.

illegitimi non carborundum

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:46 am

terlin wrote:Al,

I recall seeing the resurrection of the Altgens photo late last spring and figured it had to do with the increase in interest heading up to the 50th. I did not pay much attention to it.

Perhaps someone had wind what Sean was up to and was trying to derail it before it was even revealed. And sure, in Sean's presentation is not just about the picture but I should imagine most people won't spend the time to go through the evidence he has presented.

A picture is worth a thousand words and bashing a "front entrance picture" might have been all that was needed as a pre-emptive strike against Sean's front entrance picture.

Something stinks for sure.

illegitimi non carborundum

That kinda sums it up.  You do have to consider that Sean had been developing this theory for a number of years prior to the spark igniting on the EF so it was known about by a handful of people before the surge in interest.

I agree that something stinks.  It did then and it does now.

Terry, I toyed with the idea that the photograph was slightly changed to make it look more like Lovelady.  Copies of the photo first published in some newspapers has it looking more like Lee Oswald.  I'd have to dig them out but they do exist over on the Education Forum somewhere.  At the end of day I don't really know why but this photograph's history does has some problems associated with it and the OIP group led by Cinque has now associated crackpotism to anyone who wants to discuss any of those issues.

If you question any aspect of the content or provenance of Altgens 6 you can quickly get tagged with also believing in a plethora of Billy Lovelady doppelgängers hanging around the TSBD, CIA mobile photograph vans whizzing around Dealey Plaza and rotoscoped midgets being inserted into Dallas Police Department HQ film footage.

But many researchers have long been attracted to this photo, the most famous being Harold Weisberg, and there must be a reason why people keep coming back to it.  It's just a crying shame that it's now linked to two of the biggest nut cases the internet has to offer.

Do a search for 'Oswald in TSBD doorway' and see what pops up.  Hint: Sean Murphy won't be in your results.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Albert Rossi on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:00 am

Someone, somewhere in this discussion (was it you, Lee?) actually suggested that the FBI focused on Altgens precisely because they were aware there was other evidence confirming Oswald in the doorway.

Funny, I was just reading about Harold's interest in the Altgens photo in Kelin's book.  It is really fascinating to see some of the hypotheses of the early critics being resurrected.  Another one is Vince Salandria's probably mistaken view of a late Connally hit (around Z290) reappearing in Harrison Livingstone.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Terry W. Martin on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 2:32 am

Goodbye wrote:Do a search for 'Oswald in TSBD doorway' and see what pops up.  Hint: Sean Murphy won't be in your results.

Yes, I tried that some time ago after Sean disappeared last December.

Sadly, that was what I found.

They seem to be hogging the bandwidth.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 7:56 am

Further to the question of the Oswald lookalike in the tramps photo,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm

I don't think the case for photo-alteration/forgery is very good at all. Richard Trask interviewed the Fort Worth Star Telegram's George Smith, who said he'd gone from Ft. Worth to Parkland and then, about 2:00 PM, to the Sheriff's Office on Houston Street.
By the time of his photo, Oswald was in custody, and Lovelady was giving his affidavit at DPD HQ. Even the theoretical Lee Oswald was driving away from the El Chico parking lot. The fellow in the photo is someone entirely different.

The policeman may possibly be Herbert Sawyer, who wore a white cap that afternoon. The fellow he's talking to seems to be affiliated with the TSBD, and it's a tad strange that he's in an Oswaldesque pose, as if arguing some point with the policeman. A wild guess would be someone who worked at the old warehouse and came over to see what was going on. This is the point in the day when people were being dismissed from work.

The lack of photos of TSBD employees is the major hurdle preventing ID of this fellow.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by greg parker on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 8:55 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:Further to the question of the Oswald lookalike in the tramps photo,

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm

I don't think the case for photo-alteration/forgery is very good at all. Richard Trask interviewed the Fort Worth Star Telegram's George Smith, who said he'd gone from Ft. Worth to Parkland and then, about 2:00 PM, to the Sheriff's Office on Houston Street.
By the time of his photo, Oswald was in custody, and Lovelady was giving his affidavit at DPD HQ. Even the theoretical Lee Oswald was driving away from the El Chico parking lot. The fellow in the photo is someone entirely different.

The policeman may possibly be Herbert Sawyer, who wore a white cap that afternoon. The fellow he's talking to seems to be affiliated with the TSBD, and it's a tad strange that he's in an Oswaldesque pose, as if arguing some point with the policeman. A wild guess would be someone who worked at the old warehouse and came over to see what was going on. This is the point in the day when people were being dismissed from work.

The lack of photos of TSBD employees is the major hurdle preventing ID of this fellow.

Looks too young to be Sawyer. I'm not arguing that the photo is altered. I'm arguing that it could be Oswald because I don't believe the photo was taken at the time everyone says it was. Again I refer you to the testimony of Harkness. There is no way it took one and a half to two hours to do what he he said he did between the time of the assassination and the arrest of the tramps. It could have been done in time for Oswald to catch a lift in a car as seen by multiple witnesses.

The person seen talking to the cop could be being vetted to leave, no?

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Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:20 am

The problem with relying on Harkness' testimony for establishing a time for the photo is it conflicts with measurements of shadow angles against the TSBD during the sequence of 7 tramps photos. They establish a time very near 2:00 PM. One example of this analysis is in the Richard Bartholomew article "The Gun That Didn't Smoke". Scroll down about 1/3 of the way at

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/gtds.html

Have to agree that the cop looks too young to be Sawyer. But don't know who else it could be. The resolution isn't that good and couldn't rule him out.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by greg parker on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 11:27 am

Richard Gilbride wrote:The problem with relying on Harkness' testimony for establishing a time for the photo is it conflicts with measurements of shadow angles against the TSBD during the sequence of 7 tramps photos. They establish a time very near 2:00 PM. One example of this analysis is in the Richard Bartholomew article "The Gun That Didn't Smoke". Scroll down about 1/3 of the way at

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v1n2/gtds.html

Have to agree that the cop looks too young to be Sawyer. But don't know who else it could be. The resolution isn't that good and couldn't rule him out.
Bartholemew is relying on a McAdams approved Nutter analysis.

Harkness's testimony is not alone in indicating a quick timeframe. The same can be seen in the arrest reports. "...taken off railroad box car right after president was shot." http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/10/1023-001.gif
 
"Right after" can't possibly mean somewhere around 2 hours in the context of a report that was typed up only three and a half hours after the assassination. If the report had been written months later, I might accept "right after" as possibly meaning anything up to a couple of hours.

There is a theory that there was more than one lot of tramps pulled off those box cars... but I'm not all that familiar with it. I do suspect it is an attempt to reconcile the extant arrest reports with the shadow analysis - that is, Abrams etc arrested "right after" as per arrest reports (and testimony) and the fake CIA tramps arrested a couple of hours later as per the "shadow analysis". 

Apparently even tramps have dopplegangers!

Ain't this case a hoot?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

Post by beowulf on Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:04 pm

Someone, somewhere in this discussion (was it you, Lee?) actually suggested that the FBI focused on Altgens precisely because they were aware there was other evidence confirming Oswald in the doorway.

Yup, it does look like both the Altgens photo and the lunchroom story were stressed to sidetrack researchers from reality that Oswald was by the front door.

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Re: Prayer Man Poll

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