JFK Assassination

First topic message reminder :

I'm curious to know why no one is interested in Boris Pash? A man who lied to Church Senate Committee about his retirement to cover up his knowledge of Oswald

Was Abraham Zaprude born on May 15, 1905, into a Russian Jewish family, in the city of Kovel, moved to US in 1920 as refuaee  and umbrella man  used by Boris Pash as tools and decoys Pash was a master of disguise and detail.
Boris Pash and his Father (Most Reverend Metropolitan Theophilus from 1934 to 1950 head of Russian Orthadox church in NA) both worked for YMCA in southern Russia in 1920 Boris also worked for Red Cross at that time


Mr. RAIGORODSKY. " GODFATHER of white Russians in Dallas" I  escaping from Russia--I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross and the YMCA.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. In December--the 28th, 1920

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together when I say "we," I am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents, myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the eye, the right eye.

http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/jfk-autopsy.html
photo's

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/rewinding-the-zapruder-film/#more-15891

McAdams its interesting to note that driver GREER had no residue on him.
My point is Officer B. J. Martin on far rear left turned on hearing shots looked directly at JFK,Zapruder filming and the sniper behind.
M Baker WC star witness lied about Martin
Mr. BAKER – Yes, I believe Officer B. J. Martin—
Mr. BELIN – Is he a motorcycle policeman?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; he is.
Mr. BELIN – On a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler?
Mr. BAKER – He is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler.
Mr. BELIN – Where was he riding at this time?
Mr. BAKER – He was on the left front.
Mr. BELIN – Of what?
Mr. BAKER – There were five motorcycle officers in front. There were four, two on each right side behind.
Mr. BELIN – When you say in front and behind of what vehicle?
Mr. BAKER – We are referring to the President’s car.
Mr. BELIN – All right. He was on the front and to the left of the President’s car.
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir; that is right.
Mr. BELIN – What did he say to you about blood or something?
Mr. BAKER – Like I say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn’t figure it Out where it came from. He turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield.
Mr. BELIN – Did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say?
Mr. BAKER – It hit all this inside. Now, as far as the inside or outside of the windshield. I don’t know about that. But it was all on the right-hand side of his helmet.
Mr. BELIN – Of his helmet?
Mr. BAKER – On his uniform also.
Mr. BELIN – On his uniform.
Mr. BAKER – That is right.
Mr. BELIN – And he was riding to the left of the President and you say ahead of the President?
Mr. BAKER – On the left-hand side.
Mr. DULLES – But a little ahead of him?
Mr. BAKER – Yes, sir. They were immediately in front of the car
John McAdams says:
August 22, 2014 at 2:07 pm

M Baker WC star witness lied about Martin

You don’t have any evidence he lied. Baker was well back in the motorcade, and he’s either confused about Martin’s position, or perhaps the “in front of” thing is hearsay, with him misunderstanding what Martin told him.
REPLY TO McAdams WE can forgive Baker but can not forgive Allan Dulles for coaching Baker to lie.Dulles new exactly where Martin position was by viewing Zapruder film over and over. Dulles like you knew that story had to have JFK’s Tissue going foreward not sideways

MCAdams reply
Dulles was simply trying to clarify what Baker was saying. Baker had already agreed that Martin was “in front” of the limo.
Is it your claim that Dulles should have argued with the witness?
The WC also took the testimony of Hargis.
But a question for you: do you understand that Kennedy’s brain tissue was blown into the air, and came down all around?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/exploded.htm

MY reply
McAdams i understand perfectly that brain tissue fell on B j Martin more then 12 ft. from JFK. Driver Greer less then 6 ft. from JFK recieved no brain tissue!

Yes, one would think a "shot from behind" (being from the TSBD) would have covered Greer as much as, if not more, that B J Martin.

But I am certain McAdams and Von Pein et al can resurrect Specter to formulate a theory to cover that apparent anomaly.

Gerry and Terry,

             Indeed, the Commission's lack of any unified timeline is their consistent problem. McAdams and Von Pein seem unable to regard the contending evidence equally with the supporting Commission evidence and witnesses. That is what is so "charming" when they try to instruct others how to conduct research and declare the superiority of their methods.

Carmine and Terry,
Any serious research sight needs a devil's  advocate but mcadams and proton are literally the delvil's advocate.

It looks like McAdams has chosen to ignore my evidence.
i was hoping photon would challenge it as i have unfinished business with him on earlier thread

http://jfkfacts.org/assassination/top-6-jfk-files-the-cia-still-keeps-secret/

David Ferrie (second from left) and a teenaged Lee Harvey Oswald (far right) in a group photo of the New Orleans Civil Air Patrol in 1955 (click to enlarge)

DID DAVID FERRIE ID LHO AS A EASY HYPNOSIS SUBJECT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ferrie

Pash had nothing to do with MK/ULTRA, did he? Unless you're suggesting he was the one making use of Dr. Gottlieb's protégés? That would be awesome, if we could get a direct link between the DoD and the Bordentown Reformatory.

Joseph Cardinal Mindszenty in1948 was brainwashed by Soviets I think Pash spent the next 25 years to outdo the Soviets
http://www.whale.to/b/west_q.html
Jolly West had a lot todo with Patty Herst
 a better link to black assassin

http://www.whale.to/b/ross.html

gerrrycam wrote:I also don't buy OSWALD getting on local bus,making transfers with a 8lb rifle under his coat and returning same way. One more piece of frame up
i'm trying to make the point that Oswald was MKULTRA GUINEA PIG that went wrong

In 1952 Ruby stated that he had a "mental breakdown," and "hibernated" in the Cotton Bowl Hotel in Dallas for 3 or 4 months, declining to see his friends.
MY ? is was Jack Ruby Treated in Veterins hospital. DR  WEST had long career in Texas Military Hospitals

Okay, so that's why I asked the specific question I did. Is there any evidence that Boris Pash ever made any use of the MK-ULTRA work product(s)?

(NOTE: he specifically claims he didn't).

Second, is there any evidence that Oswald was ever in the Bordentown Reformatory?

Seems to me, the answer on both counts is "no". (I'm just a know-nothing n00b though, so... I'm all ears).

Gerrycam, in this story we have literally hundreds of individuals and small groups who "could have" killed Kennedy. Maybe their "jobs" put them in that position, or just the "activities" they happened to be engaged in at the time - but I am completely unaware of any direct link between Oswald and Boris Pash. Or even between Oswald and any kind of CIA mind-control experiment(s).

If we're going to talk about Oswald and drugs (which we can), then of greater interest would seem to be the relationship with Kerry Thornley.

My best understanding of history is that Boris Pash was actually not involved in MK-ULTRA, like almost "not at all". He was the "titular" head of a superorganization that also included Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, but in real life that means next-to-nothing.

Can you come up with even one document instance of Boris Pash making use of one of Dr Sidney Gottlieb's work products?

There is a ton of inference  that Pash worked with Dr Sidney Gottlieb.Gottilieb seldom wrote things down and what he did Helms destroyed  Pash himsalve riped out his military carreer after 1957 (Stanford papers)
John Macks book Manchurian Candidate  has money trall. I'm thinking Pash along with Lie detector teck used MKULTRA on N Korean POW and its documented to a degree that Pash and POW where in Japan at time
 CIA meeting on Nov 29 1963 on UNWITTING MKULTRA
SUBJECTS inferes to me they where talking about LHO
 Still no smoking bonb but i keep searching

gerrrycam wrote:There is a ton of inference  that Pash worked with Dr Sidney Gottlieb.Gottilieb seldom wrote things down and what he did Helms destroyed  Pash himsalve riped out his military carreer after 1957 (Stanford papers)
John Macks book Manchurian Candidate  has money trall. I'm thinking Pash along with Lie detector teck used MKULTRA on N Korean POW and its documented to a degree that Pash and POW where in Japan at time
 CIA meeting on Nov 29 1963 on UNWITTING MKULTRA
SUBJECTS inferes to me they where talking about LHO
 Still no smoking bonb but i keep searching

Okay, thanks. That's a very good response to a direct challenge, and I apologize for being so forward. (I do it in the interest of efficiency, mainly - 'cause being painfully nice usually takes a painful amount of time and it's sometimes better "not" to mince words and cut straight to the chase).

So, excellent! I like money trails, they're usually the gift that keeps on giving. Nov 29 1963? ??? Gee, that is interesting, I was unaware of that. I'm currently reviewing the stack of CIA documents at Mary Ferrell (which includes Oswald's 201 file), is the document you referenced included and is there a RIF number or something?

Let's get specific - what exactly about that discussion/document would lead you to believe that it's Oswald they're talking about?

(Not trying to be a stickler, I'm trying to get to and understand your model. This is interesting enough to where I'd like to spend some time understanding it, and at this point you're the expert and I'm the n00b so I'm just trying to pick your brain a little, mainly asking "why").

And there is one additional thing I find curious = the bit about 'unwitting' subjects. Weren't all the MK-ULTRA subjects "unwitting"? Were any of them actually 'witting', that we know of? (I mean, not including the hookers and johns in San Francisco, which loosely speaking might be considered a part of MK-ULTRA even though it really wasn't, it was part of a separate MK project of which there were many).

Dennis Hyman Ofstein, the military intelligence officer assigned to Jaeggers, Chiles, and Stoval
 nonsqtr if you track down Master Sargent Ofstein who may now be  Dr Ofstein psychiatrist or psychologist and may have accompanied LHO  or drove LHO to Gen Walkers home. He may have right INFO on MKULTRA

Ha ha - good old Mr Ofstein eh?

Mr. Jenner.Had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when you became employed by-Jaggars-Chiles Stovall?Mr. Ofstein.No, sir.Mr. Jenner.You are still employed by them?Mr. Ofstein.Yes sir.Mr. Jenner.You were initially a trainee as well as Oswald?Mr. Ofstein.Yes sir.Mr. Jenner.And how did you become employed there?Mr. Ofstein.I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission.Mr. Jenner.Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission?Mr. Ofstein.I don't recall who the person was at the time.Mr. Jenner.A lady or a gentleman?Mr. Ofstein.I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.Mr. Jenner.Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?Mr. Ofstein.The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know.Mr. Jenner.Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission?Mr. Ofstein.Yes, sir.

And there is this nice little summary of the Jaggars-Stovall time: http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2009/12/u2-photos-of-cuba-oct-62.html

“Oswald also couldn’t resist impressing Dennis Hyman Ofstein, who had taught him how to use some of the photographic equipment, with his fluent Russian. Ofstein, who was about the same age as Oswald, had learned Russian himself when he served in the Army Security Agency (the predecessor to the National Security Agency). He was, however, not nearly as proficient in the language as Oswald and therefore tried to practice it by speaking to him in Russian during the working hours.”

“Oswald was initially closemouthed about himself and volunteered little more than he had been a Marine who had served in Japan. Then he asked Ofstein to help him blow up an odd-looking photograph he had brought into the shop. It showed a river in the foreground and an interesting-looking building in the background. When Ofstein asked whether this was a picture Oswald had taken during his tour of Japan, Oswald answered, ‘No, it wasn’t in Japan.’ Then he changed the subject, as he generally did when he didn’t want to answer a question.”

“A short while later Oswald told Ofstein that the picture had been taken in Minsk, Russia. The building in the picture was a military headquarters, which was tightly guarded by soldiers who had orders to shoot to kill any trespassers, Oswald said….Little by little Oswald told Ofstein more about his stay in the Soviet Union. He said that the MVD secret police had one of their headquarter buildings in Minsk. He mentioned that he had traveled within the Soviet Union and spent one May Day in Moscow observing Soviet military equipment on parade....Oswald casually revealed to Ofstein that he had married a ‘White Russian’ while he was in Minsk.”

“As they grew friendlier, Oswald asked Ofstein if he knew what the term ‘microdot’ meant...Oswald then explained that it was a technique used in espionage. A mass of documents could be reduced through a special photographic process literally to a dot which could be hidden ‘under a postage stamp.’ Spies used such microdots for sending data…In his personal address book, next to the entry for Jaggers-Chiles-Stoval, Oswald carefully wrote the word ‘microdot,’ connecting the place where he worked with a basic technique of espionage. Some eight months after Oswald left JCS, the FBI conducted an investigation of his employment there. Agents showed his fellow workers a photograph of a leather pouch that they believed Oswald might have used to conceal a miniature camera, but no one recalled seeing Oswald with either the pouch or the camera.” [6]

Doesn't sound like an MK-ULTRA relationship though, what do you think?

And this: Soon after going to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, Lee had persuaded his colleague, Dennis Hyman Ofstein, to teach him techniques he did not know, using the company's lab and materials after hours, a practice the company tried to discourage. First, Lee made sample calling cards for himself and for George de Mohrenschildt.[12] Then he made other samples of his work, which he sent to two left-wing newspapers in New York: the Militant, newspaper of the Socialist Workers Party, the Trotskyite party in the United States; and the Worker, the newspaper of the Communist Party. Lee had begun corresponding with both organizations soon after his return from Russia, and he subscribed to both newspapers. Now he offered his services in printing and photographic work. In reply, the Worker thanked him for his "poster-like blow-ups" and said that "from time to time we shall call on you."[13] http://www.rulit.net/books/marina-and-lee-the-tormented-love-and-fatal-obsession-behind-lee-harvey-oswald-039-s-assassination-o-read-346189-95.html

As you can tell from my bio, I work at Southern Methodist University ("SMU"). When I moved to Dallas in 1999 I got a job at SMU's Center for Media & Instructional Technology ("CMIT"). The CMIT media librarian at the time (introduced to me as "Judy Childs") was in fact Judy Chiles, wife of Bill Chiles, part owner of Jaggars Chiles Stovall.

Well, you know, when I found that out I just went through the roof! So at one of our Chritmas parties, I approached Bill (who is a sweet guy) and I asked him point blank about Lee Harvey Oswald working for his company.

Bill stated that Oswald was generally a crappy employee, that we wore thick black military-type boots, was surly, and to the concern of Bill at least, walked around speaking in Russian.

Since they did some work for the US Government, Bill was concerned about this guy enough to call the FBI. Bill told the FBI that this guy named Oswald was clunking around in military boots, speaking in Russian and making a nuisance of himself. Bill said the FBI put him on hold, and then came back with (and I am paraphrasing here) "...yeah, we know about Oswald, he's okay."

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=10719&page=2

I'm sure you've seen this stuff already. And I'm still trying to figure out your model. How do you get from this to MK-ULTRA?

This stuff takes me in an entirely different direction, which is more along these lines: [url=http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/H Disk/Haller Paul/Item 41.pdf]http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/H%20Disk/Haller%20Paul/Item%2041.pdf[/url]

My best understanding of MK-ULTRA is that it was a dismal failure in terms of its national security objectives. Someone who was a "subject" would certainly NOT thereafter become an "ordinary CIA agent", involved in the analysis of U-2 spy plane photographs (or even photographs from space).

The more promising direction, IMO, would be the microdot. That word has another colloquial usage, doesn't it? But then I find myself asking, if LHO was an expert with microdots then why was he fooling around with JCS "at all"? And why was he asking Ofstein to "teach" him how to use photographic equipment after hours, in contravention of company policy? And what about the photograph Oswald was looking at? Was it his, or did JCS just happen to be processing some material from Minsk, whereupon LHO said "hey, I recognize that"?

Gallahue Mental Health Services - Indianapolis, IN, (Indiana
 address of 74 year old Dr Dovid Ofstein
I read some where David was changed to Dovid

Dovid Ofstein, LMHC
2040 Shadeland Ave #200 Indianapolis, IN 46219
+1 317-355-1800

Doctor

gerrrycam wrote:Gallahue Mental Health Services - Indianapolis, IN, (Indiana
 address of 74 year old Dr Dovid Ofstein
I read some where David was changed to Dovid

Dovid Ofstein, LMHC
2040 Shadeland Ave #200 Indianapolis, IN 46219
+1 317-355-1800

Doctor

This sounds like a real stretch for a photographer though, don't it? http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/archive/10080301.smb.html

Also there are other Dovid Ofsteins floating around (even in Indiana): http://www.advancedbackgroundchecks.com/d/dovid-ofstein/150746677

http://www.peekyou.com/dovid_ofstein

Here's a really interesting one - this is a Ham Radio license, issued to Dovid Ofstein. http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applAdmin.jsp;JSESSIONID_APPSEARCH=C5sLT9TNbnyFQtptQ1xpD7z9hhgWPCvTMjJ5GpPl2S2lYbZZGq9v!-383152034!-1325714141?applID=4463356

The call letters are N5OVA, and the last update (and payment) was in 2008, which means the license is now expired.

And that's because..... the call sign changed! Here's the new one: http://www.qrz.com/db

And, here's what it says:

Served in theU.S.A.S.A. from 1957 to 1960. In addition to other (assigned) duties, I served as an operator at a MARS station, AE1SAC, in Heilbron, Germany. Vietnam era service in the U.S. Navy from 1974 - 1978, as a journalist. Received my Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Akron in 1991.

What do you think? Same person?

I dunno gerrycam. The guy's apparently still alive. Why don't we just call him up?

nonsqtr wrote:I dunno gerrycam. The guy's apparently still alive. Why don't we just call him up?

His e-mail address is there on the facebook page too...

USA SA ? What is that?

(sorry, my n00b brains needs more coffee this morning)

I allso see a Junior 20 years younger in - Indianapolis
it all fits
 ITS now close to midnight in Thailand
GOOD NIGHT
US  ARMY SECURITY ?

gerrrycam wrote:I allso see a Junior 20 years younger in - Indianapolis
it all fits
 ITS now close to midnight in Thailand
GOOD NIGHT
US  ARMY SECURITY ?

Well, to the best of my knowledge it usually stands for "Secretary Of The Army", which is basically a high ranking DoD personnel officer.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Secretary+of+the+Army

But, like I said, I'm havin' a bad day, so... someone else can correct me as soon as possible please.

To the end of his life,General  Walker believed that another man had also shot at him, acting as Oswald's accomplice. He spent decades trying to learn the identity of that accomplice. Unsatisfied with the Dallas Police investigation into the shooting, Walker hired a private investigator and Walker personally interviewed witnesses. In his testimony before the Warren Commission, Walker accused the Commission and the FBI of blocking his access to a man named Walter Kirk Coleman.^[35] Colman was a neighbor of Walker who, according to Dallas Police Department records, witnessed two men at the scene of the crime, and speeding away.^[36][37] Walker testified in a letter to the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) that the bullet that the committee called the "Walker bullet" was not the bullet that almost killed him: "It is not the bullet that was fired at me and taken out of my house by the Dallas City Police on April 10, 1963. The bullet you have was not gotten from me or taken out of my house by anyone at anytime