Anti Prayer Man Campaign

First topic message reminder :

Is it my imagination only or does it seem like there has been an increase in PM bashing lately?

For example

Bill Miller returns to the Education Forum and starts criticizing the Prayer Man theory.

Glenn Vikund recently posted some stuff on a Facebook group and also mentioned Prayer Man in a negative way.

James Gordon too recently seemed quite critical of Prayer Man.

Even Paul Trejo who in the past seems to have hardly noticed Prayer Man is now criticizing the Prayer Man as Oswald theory.

Duncan has deleted the Prayer Man threads at his forum and Deep Politics Forum does not allow any new Prayer Man threads to be started.

I don't mean to be rude Karl - I'm presuming English is your second language and trying to take this into account - but your posts rarely ever rise above the garbled or the downright incoherent. 

If you think it would help you getting your point across I can speak and read rudimentary German. Why not write your posts in your mother tongue? Either posting them directly or sending them to me via PM for translation?( naturally I would of course send you the resultant translations before posting,  so you can be absolutely certain I am not misquoting you or putting words in your mouth)

All I'm seeing is a collection of random non sequiturs ,clumsy attempts at metaphor and/ or wit.

I think,  by accident or design , you're missing the bigger picture. 

The clue is in the subtitle,  " MORE than just a Fuzzy Picture "

Barto ( and apologies for presuming to speak for you) , imho, is attempting to move forward. Focus on the vast trove of accumulated evidence,  rather than remaining locked in an endless folie de deux,  squabbling over the images. 

This sort of " research "( namely claiming to " see" hidden clues in blurry multi generational copies of decades old photos/ film footage) is fraught with difficulties. One notorious example involves your very own Judyth Vary Baker,  who , at one time or another,  claimed to be ALL THREE of the Latina girls in the background of the photos ( film footage?) taken of her Lee, in New Orleans,  outside the Trade Mart, handing out his FPCC flyers.

Trying to retrospectively preempt people,  " Oswald SHOULD have said this etc" is another waste of time. Unless you are privy to the full inside details of his incarceration and " interrogation " by the DPD et al. 

This so called " scoop necked dress " photo is absolutely useless. Did you check its provenance before plastering it over the internet? I'm no photo expert but even I can tell it looks blatantly photoshopped. 

Check back through my posts, never once have I said " Prayerman is Oswald " 

For what it's worth,  ive always accepted there's a lingering element of doubt,  until clearer images emerge. But,  saying that the images we have are clear enough to make certain deductions. 1 the figure is obviously male( maybe you can take a shot at pointing out " Prayerwoman 's" cleavage 2 he has dark hair and a visibly receding hairline 3 He is wearing dark coloured clothes 

The idea that he is really a 300lb morbidly obese grey haired barrel of a woman wearing light coloured clothes is an insult to the intelligence. May as well claim day is night, night is day and Judyth Baker was the double of Marina Oswald 

You seem to have completely misconstrued and misunderstood the entire argument ( again,  if this is down to language issues I apologise and repeat my offer to help translate. I know from bitter experience how difficult it can be articulating oneself succinctly in a foreign language) Trying to view it through the jaded worn out " Them and Us" JFK prism. 

Prayerman,  at least my perception of it, is diametrically opposed to this utterly discredited bullshit method. Trying to focus on the actual facts,  admitting errors whilst trying to assemble a coherent portrait of the on the ground mechanics of the frame up job that ensnared Oswald. 

And ,crucially imho, doing so without relying upon ridiculous fairy tales about doppelgangers,  CIA Potemkin villages, swarming with agents cum warehouse supervisors,, magical mystery mobile photo alteration trucks etc..

Yes, Oswald was more than probably involved with one or more US intelligence agencies,  but at just about the lowest level possible,  tasked with doing the dirtiest jobs, the Cold War equivalent of cleaning the Augean stables, all the fanciful tales of Lee Harvey Oswald,  international man of mystery are pure hokum,  dreamt up by the unscrupulous and the unethical to bewitch and befuddle the gullible and the credulous. 

I wonder if we know anyone like that 

If the 1st generation prints revealed some anonymous workman,  lounging in the doorway,  drinking his coke or doing whatever,  then why wasn't the footage released decades ago?

Maybe I'm just being naive or succumbing to conspiratorial illogic. 

I don't know 

Whomever he turns out to be,  Oswald or not, Prayerman most certainly isn't a figment of some conspiracy theorists over active immigration,  a la Badgeman,  or his fellow exhibits in the Grassy Knoll Conspiracy Freak Show: Dwarf Succulent man, Bulbous Headed Ewok Man, Pogo stick girl, Black Dog man, Uncle Tom Cobbley an' all man...

He's real, he exists and he bears a startling,  albeit superficial resemblance to the accused assassin. 

So, if it turns out NOT to be him, so what? There's nothing to lose that hasn't been lost already 

Decades ago 

Thanks to the irresponsible antics and bare faced hucksterism of certain " researchers "

Thanks to the tireless efforts of Greg,  Barto ( who,  imho stands unchallenged as the leading archival researcher) Stan, Sean, Ed, Mick, Jake, Steely,  Vinny and all the other ROKCers , past and present,  at the very least,  a whole new understanding of the actual day one mechanics has emerged,  due to the hitherto unknown treasure trove of documentary evidence they have unearthed 

If you think Prayerman wasn't Oswald,  fair enough,  but do try to rise above clumsy attempts at hit and run trolling 

This ain't the 13 inch head forum

Karl Kinaski wrote:I love that page: It substitutes research with sarkasm. CTer nihilism at its finest. Always some fun. 


Back ON. 

But explain me one thing: Why Oswald at 7h55min Nov 22.11. 1963 when he had a short but good opportunity to talk with the press didn't say the few words: I was in front of the building during the shooting? as you Prayman folks all claim?  How stupid is your Oswald actually?

If you can't answer this question a sarcasm or good meme will do.

Karl, this has been asked and answered across multiple platforms across multiple years. 

I won't insult your intelligence by repeating those answers here when that would deprive you of an exciting evening of googling and discovery.

Nor will I attempt to match your wit. Not since another wannabe German took his act touring across Europe have so many been left rolling in the trenches aisles.

Enjoy your time here, Mr K.

@Greg Parker.  1. I appreciate your attempt to be funny. 

2. A question. Do you have an estimate how dumb  Oswald in the Prayerman-sermon must be to shout: "I am a patsy" but not: "I was in front of that building during the shooting?" IQ 100? 80? 65? 

In order to make the Prayerman-scenario plausibel one must amputate Oswalds brains.

@alex_wilson, said, quote:

He's (prayerman) real, he exists and he bears a startling,  albeit superficial resemblance to the accused assassin. (Oswald)

 Thank you for providing the result of your Fuzzy-picture Rorschach test.

Still the same old excuses

It is a blurry image
Just a mass of pixels
It is a woman
Why did not nobody report seeing Oswald with them on the steps
It is a stranger
Why did Oswald cry out to the reporters that he was out on the stairs etc.

Vinny wrote:Still the same old excuses

It is a blurry image
Just a mass of pixels
It is a woman
Why did not nobody report seeing Oswald with them on the steps
It is a stranger
Why did Oswald cry out to the reporters that he was out on the stairs etc.

Yep. It has all been asked and answered many times, including at least one of those points in this thread. 

Some CTs use the same MO as LNs. Just keep asking the same questions over and over and pretend they have never been answered. 

But I am sure Karl is not like that. I am sure once he looks into these questions via google, he will find all the answers he wants. With his curiosity then satiated, he will have no need to ask any of them again. He can move on to either accepting those answers, or attempting to rebut them. That is how we make progress.

@Vinny said, quote:

Why did Oswald cry out to the reporters that he was out on the stairs etc.

He did not but you wish he had, ain't ya? Thx for the Freudian  slip ... 

BTW Uncle Google provided me with this: 

Maybe so, Karl. But in Fritz's handwritten notes and in the Hosty note, they both wrote that LHO said he was outside to watch the parade. And if he was, where exactly was he? You can see Lovelady up on the steps. Frazier. Others, all from the same building. It doesn't make sense that he would have gone down onto the street, and there's no photos showing him down there. It makes more sense that he'd be up there on the steps with his co-workers. And unless you're being disingenuous and ridiculous like many others have been claiming it's a woman, it certainly does have a resemblance to Oswald.

This was dealt with ten years ago already by SM
If Kinaski had the book he would have known about it!

Karl Kinaski wrote:@Vinny said, quote:

Why did Oswald cry out to the reporters that he was out on the stairs etc.

He did not but you wish he had, ain't ya? Thx for the Freudian  slip ... 

BTW Uncle Google provided me with this: 

Aren't you the one claiming all the interrogators lied? This is called cherry-picking. 

Here is what Kelley said in his interrogation report about the same interrogation session:

 Mr. Sorrels and my presence was as observers, since Oswald was being held for murder and his custody and interrogation at that time was the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm

In other words, he asked Oswald exactly diddly-squat. The undated report you cite is merely another attempt to put words into the mouth of Oswald after the fact. Hosty's note was made at, or soon after the time of the interviews - when they had no clue what happened or what they would need to "tidy up". There was no need to lie or put words in his mouth at that time. They had to wait until they had a more complete picture of what did happen and of what other witnesses were saying. 

All of your presumptions are crap.

Your presumption that Oswald should have said this or that to reporters is at the top of the crap list. 

You presume he had to be stupid not to tell them he was outside.

That is based on a bunch of other erroneous presumptions.

You presume he does not know what to do under arrest for his own good. Rule one: get a lawyer. Rule two: don't give anything away before talking to a lawyer.

You presume he had to be stupid not to tell them his alibi, when in fact what we see is a lifelong issue. Several reports from Youth House state he would not volunteer information about himself and that he only gave short answers to direct questions. This is all noted time and again in interviews of people he knew or worked with. It goes way beyond being "private" or "shy". It is a deeply ingrained psychological issue which the psych at Youth House characterized as a personality disorder.

You must presume he had psychic ability to know that Shelley was outside, and at what point Jarman and Norman re-entered the building. Those of us in the real world presume only that he saw those things for himself.

You presume he knew that the assassination happened in the very short time he was out there - instead of thinking like everyone else that it was a backfiring bike. If that is what he thought just prior to going back in then, it is natural that he thought the actual assassination happened after that when he saw everyone rushing back in, including Campbell who told a reporter he say Oswald at that time inside on the ground floor after he himself rushed in with others.

Thus when he said he was IN the building at the time, he was not lying, because as far as he knew it did happen after he went back in. 

You presume he knew he had limited time to save himself and needed to urgently get his alibi out - with or without a lawyer. Again, you are giving him psychic abilities to foresee Ruby shooting him dead on Sunday. 

The "fuzzy picture" line of attack is also bullshit.

This was never about the film. This was about what Oswald's movements were pre and post assassination,. That work goes back to 2003 and the PM figure was found to support THAT work 10 years later. Yes, Bart, myself and others have found more evidence since. But again, it is to support his alibi, which exists with or without a fuzzy picture. 

But as far as it goes, every photo expert who has weighed in on the issue has said the same thing. The most likely outcome of getting the films scanned is ( a ) we can definitively rule Oswald in or out as PM and either way, the films are preserved for history. Why anyone would not only not want to help in this effort, but also actually work to subvert it, is beyond my comprehension. 

Unlike other forums, we don't have a list of rules. That just encourages some to try and work out ways around them. Here is how it works. I will only tolerate shit for so long. If it keeps going, regardless of who started it or who is to blame, it will be you who is shown the door. Tough if that seems unfair. This place was built to pursue a means of getting the case reopened and your actions here so far, seem counter to that aim.

I regret I can only give one BAM! to the post above.

Bye Karl.
Hello Brian.
Some rules Brian.
No lying.
No bullshit.
No whinging.
Bye Brian.

steely_dan wrote:Bye Karl.
Hello Brian.
Some rules Brian.
No lying.
No bullshit.
No whinging.
Bye Brian.

No point in sugar-coating this anymore. I just went to ACJFK and admitted what really happened here.

As you know Steely, I fought forumotion tooth and nail to allow Brian on here, but they have maintained throughout our correspondence that they will close us down if he posts here again. 

Completely out of my hands, unfortunately.

It is odd that Bart is using the very same document shown by me above in his book. But not in the context of  "Ossi in the doorway".He used it in the context of the Hidell ID found in Oswald's wallet. There is a link to the document shown by me above in Bart's book. Bart highlights a paragraph dealing with the Hidell ID. Obviously this paragraph rings true for him. Guess what is not highlighted? The very next sentence which is a blow to the Prayerman scenario and far more important than this Hidell thing which has nothing to do with the premise of his book. 
" I ASKED HIM (Oswald) IF HE VIEWED THE PARADE AND HE SAID HE HAD NOT."
This sentence is not highlighted. 
Bart is OK with Kelley dealing with the Hidell-ID. For that this document is good enough for him, but he intentionally overlooked this very next sentence " I ASKED HIM (Oswald) IF HE VIEWED THE PARADE AND HE SAID HE HAD NOT" which is directly connected to the premise of his book and a blow to it. 

This is a crude instrumentalisation of a document and a willful misleading method. 

Here is the document as linked in Bart's book. 

@Greg Parker said, quote:

Aren't you the one claiming all the interrogators lied? 

Sorry, that must be another person. I never said such a stupid thing.

Karl Kinaski wrote:@Greg Parker said, quote:

Aren't you the one claiming all the interrogators lied? 

Sorry, that must be another person. I never said such a stupid thing.

Deleting the post in which you said it, is the last straw, Karl. I gave you the chance to a ct like you give a shit about the case. You paid no attention. 

In fact by quoting Kelley claiming Oswald said he never watched it, is just a round about way of calling at least some in that room liars - because others did say Oswald said he went out. 

Further, as I said before, you - you have to ignore what Kelley said at the start of that report in order to believe what he inserted into it later.

"The interview was not recorded. Mr. Sorrels and my presence was as observers, since Oswald was being held for murder and his custody and interrogation at that time was the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department."

Goodbye, Karl.

greg_parker wrote:

Karl Kinaski wrote:@Greg Parker said, quote:

Aren't you the one claiming all the interrogators lied? 

Sorry, that must be another person. I never said such a stupid thing.

Deleting the post in which you said it, is the last straw, Karl. I gave you the chance to a ct like you give a shit about the case. You paid no attention. 

In fact by quoting Kelley claiming Oswald said he never watched it, is just a round about way of calling at least some in that room liars - because others did say Oswald said he went out. 

Further, as I said before, you - you have to ignore what Kelley said at the start of that report in order to believe what he inserted into it later.

"The interview was not recorded. Mr. Sorrels and my presence was as observers, since Oswald was being held for murder and his custody and interrogation at that time was the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department."

Goodbye, Karl.

And yes, folks - he really did say it. It was in the post that was roundly criticized for its damnably horrible attempts at metaphors. That post got deleted by Karl.

Go smoke some Sanibel Gold, Karl.

Cya!

Every now and then have disruptive people joining here.  They are not interested in debating just to troll and disrupt. In the past we have had David Josephs, Bill Brown and now Karl. Enough is enough.

Auf Weidersehn Herr Kinaski. 

I don't think our friendly neighbourhood Juddufkist gave Greg any sort of alternative. 

If he was here to argue his case seriously, then I'm sure no one would have had any issues with him 
In fact,  being forced to revaluation your own position, can often be healthy, putting your own most deeply cherished beliefs under the microscope prevents them from getting stale, or hardening into dogma. 

But, it was blatantly obvious,  from his very first post, Karl was here to make mischief. 

Scribbling some of his characteristically semi coherent graffiti,  sticking out his virtual tongue,  before scurrying off, back to into the welcoming embrace of his fellow Juddufkists. 

Like our chum Brian he doesn't seem to realise the utter intellectual bankruptcy of his " argument " actually serves to diminish his cause...

And what a fucking cause!!

Trying to outdo Dr Franken Furter himself!!

Turning a slim male figure with a dark visibly receding hairline and dark clothes, into a morbidly obese 300lb grey haired barrel of a woman in light coloured clothes..

Armstrong hab erbermann

Well said, Alex. He did not come here in good faith.

I had a feeling that Herr Kinaski wouldn't be around for long! At least he might now have enough time to read the other 80% of Bart's book.

Incidentally, I was pleased to see that David Josephs has been making some Prayer Man-friendly noises. I'm not sure how he reconciles that with his beloved double-doppelganger theory, though. If and when the figure is definitively identified as Oswald, when even the lone-nutters finally accept that there was no-one named Oswald up on the sixth floor, the H&L believers will look a bit silly if they claim that, actually, there was an Oswald up there firing at the motorcade, but this one was a couple of inches taller (or shorter, I can never remember) than the one on the steps, and he had a 13-inch head, and it's all true because just look at the school records, and his mother put on a bit of weight as she got older which proves that she was two people, and ...

In general David has been a Prayer Man supporter for many years. He claims that PM is likely to be Harvey Oswald. Lee was somewhere else perhaps even on the 6th floor to help frame Harvey for the assassination.

In nigh on a quarter of a century it apparently hasn't dawned upon Fezzo,  our hibernating hobbit chum, Jimbo Baggins,  the Arch Guru himself and all the other intellectual heavyweights who have fastened their standards to the creaky somewhat leaky poop deck of the good ship Doppelganger,  that by doing so they are buttressing , if not actually supporting the original Warren Report lie 

A salutary reminder of the debilitating effects of cult like ( non) thinking 

Throw in a couple of doppelgangers add a soupcon of faux glamour and garnish with the glitter of cod James Bond intel spook mystique and voila!! 

Suddenly the idea they originally ridiculed- the American born Lee Oswald taking aim from the 6th floor window- an idea , in all fairness,  a considerable majority have spent several decades arguing against,  often in the most vehement belligerent manner,  becomes eminently reasonable 

Likewise the Tippit murder. 

The only conclusion this poor benighted unbeliever can draw is American born doppelgangers (  I suppose,  technically speaking,  Lee, sorry LEE was the doppelganged, (the nomenclature of the doppelganger cosmology is infinitely perplexing,  like trying to decipher one of Fezzo's more feverish posts, or one of Chris Davidson's more esoteric equations) was somehow imbued with mystical powers ( from birth or via CIA obstetrician/ spatula/ test tube/ syringe or years of intel spooktastic conditioning/ mind kontrol , perhaps the initial indoctrination and even " a doppelgangeders guide to rudimentary invisibility techniques,  ideal for slipping in and out of Book Depositories in Dallas." WARNING Not designed for use by doppelgangers or natives of Butler County,  Kentucky. If you see anyone with a ponytail or " I'm a HeeHaw Honey " T shirt,  please do not appro9. Contact Col Boris Pash immediately, might have taken place out at the Ilusory Warfare School at Nags Head) plain old American born doppelgangers simply did not possess. 

Could you just imagine the eruption of cognitive dissonance,  in Fezzos studio/ biological warfare laboratory? When this horrendous prospect finally permeates the anti HUM and microwave beam resistant titanium coating encasing Fezzos skull?

His fez will start spinning lfaster than an aircraft hanger full of Paperclipped Hungarian polyglot would be doppelgangers undergoing their initial MK Ultraing 

This could well prove to be the conspiracy approximation of the Mexican standoff 

The Fezzian Standoff....