Mr White T-Shirt

First topic message reminder :


Looks quite a bit like Lovelady but it has been suggested it's Dougherty - which makes more sense if Lovelady never got back in as the exterior film record suggests. Another factor whch suggests Dougherty is that to me the person looks too tall for Lovelady.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:I believe it was the same person caught by Dillard and cropped ever so slightly out of the famous image.


This would be a husky man wearing a white tshirt, slightly balding.
Seen in uncropped version of one of Dillard's photos.

An employee whom admitted to being on an upper floor working (ie in a tshirt) when he heard a shot. Which was the sixth floor as he slipped up and said he went down to five ...from where? Sixth of course, and after his bs talk with Piper, where does he go? He "went back" to sixth of course.
I think like most everyone he ran to a window.
I don't buy the story or intended confusion.
I don't accept he had to go down and have Piper tell him what he heard.

This would be Jack Dougherty, of course, seen just as he was caught in Dillard.

JD is our man. I do not buy it is Billy. Billy three shirts?... nope its JD
Jack Edwin Dougherty.
I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

Billy stuck outside having a ciggy are among the top bits against it being William Lovelady.

No shots were fired from the sixth floor (Me).  But rifles of various makes are on various floors depending on whom you ask and when.
The weirdness with the Dillard and Powell photo/s.
A-B C-D from two negs, yet seemingly not.
Powell taking a building photo before the shooting,,,  (WaltCakebread)

The differing statements from the three blind mice. (Lee)
The lunch bag and chicken bones journey. (Colin Crow)
On and on ... so much is merged to impugn Oswald
But the Powell photo being from a time before Dillard's photos plural would along with films show no rifle no person and no shots came from the so called 'snipers nest'

A body blow the most ardent commission advocate would cough up blood from.

With such a witness on the sixth floor, basically admitting the shot did not come from there as he could not tell where it had come from, is quite another blow, one the commission could not allow.
Much cropping would be done.
Much photographic chronological confusion would ensue.
Much confusion was brought into Dougherty's testimony.

May be a new thread strictly on the Dillard Dilema?

IMO, until shown a better option, it is Dougherty.
Cheers, Ed

Nice one Ed,

I'm with you JD until further notice....

Lots of eyes here Mick.
I'm sure if there is other evidence it'll make itself known.

The military records and FOIA can be our project.

Credit G. Parker


He is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.




Let's try and verify the memory problems through his testimony:

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

"To be exact". Nothing wrong with long term memory, anyhow...

He served his time in Seymour, Indiana while his peers were used as cannon fodder in Europe and elsewhere.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged. 
Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Was there anything about Seymour, Indiana that might be of interest here?

How about this?
SEYMOUR, Ind.  (WDRB) -- Searchers in Seymour, Indiana, look underground for some of the secrets of World War II -- Nazi secrets, to be precise.

The Allies shipped Nazi planes to Freeman Field so pilots and engineers could fly them, take them apart, and put them back together again.

What they learned was important, because American planes weren't as advanced.

What happened to those planes after the war is still a mystery.
 http://www.wdrb.com/story/17041764/nazi-secrets-wwii-planes-buried-under-seymour-ind-airport

I think Jack was pretty good at keeping secrets.

In my opinion, Truly did a sterling job looking out for his man Dougherty...

I've dragged some of the material from an old thread on JD over to here, maybe relevant. 














Credit L Farley:






Regarding Dougherty we have a memo with a title: "Identity of Assassin" that places much suspicion upon him.  Yet we are all left with more questions than answers; we are left with some bullshit story that Dougherty was a "retard" who was accompanied by Truly and his father during his interviews and his testimony; and we are left without a fucking picture of the guy.  


The only pictures thus far found are of a youth military regiment he was in when he was in high school and we don't know which one was him but whichever one he is he is holding a frigging rifle.

I'm sure it has never been the policy of the United States Army to proactively recruit "retards" and let them serve for two years? 

Eisenberg asked the right questions, the Warren Commission let Dougherty walk out without fully answering any of them.  Pat Speer, once again, is spreading his continual crap by using Dougherty's own testimony to categorically state as fact that he was not one of the "floor laying crew" in the TSBD.  He may not have been but I certainly wouldn't be placing much faith in his, and the other 5th and 6th floor workers testimony concerning what the fuck was happening in the building on 11/22/63.




Credit Lee Farley




http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40395&relPageId=6 Jack was on at least one other person's list, as well.




In addition to Eisenberg's requests, if the WC would have been interested in the truth of the matter, they would have reconstructed Dougherty's movements in relation to those of Baker/Truly, Adams/Styles and gone through what would have happened if each of the events occured as claimed.  As we both know, Victoria Adams specifically asked for a time trial in her Warren Commission pre-meeting as documented by Barry Ernest and was basically told to go swivel.





Credit Lee Farley
 
Doughtery wasn't retarded.  He finished high school and his answers to WC sound reasonably intelligent, its just he keeps missing the the point of the question. His "retardation" was probably a combination of hearing loss and some kind of mental disorder (or "emotional problem" as Eisenberg would call it).  Either or both of those conditions may have first presented while in the Army or they could have been there before but missed by the draft physical (telling the doc he'd been a ROTC cadet could have been all he'd needed to be approved) and just aggravated by the rigors of military life.





At any rate, the fact the Army discharged Doughtery at the end of 1944--- at the same time Eisenhower was screaming for infantry replacements to make up losses from the campaign across France---  is all you need to know about Dougherty's suitability as a solider.  And then he gets home and can't find a job?  The US unemployment rate in 1944 was the lowest it has ever been, the lowest it ever will be, 1.2%.  As I've written elsewhere, you know your economy is at full employment when you're giving German POWs drivers licenses and work vehicles.




http://monetaryrealism.com/this-is-what-full-employment-looks-like/

And Jack Dougherty can't find a job between 1944 and 1952?  Hell, the GI Bill would have reimbursed his employer for half his first year salary. It sounds like the poor guy had a nervous breakdown or a psychotic break and wasn't capable of working until he finally took that TSBD job in 1952. 

There's definitely something going on in his medical history the WC didn't uncover (were I a novelist, I'd say he was treated by a hypnotherapist... who moonlighted for the CIA                     ) but he's definitely a weak reed emotionally.  


If someone told Dougherty they'd kill his parents if he told anyone what he saw, poor Jack would've been a nervous wreck over it but he'd keep his mouth shut (perhaps only confiding in Truly or his father).



Credit G Parker




he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and has been especially confused since the assassination.






Let's try and verify the memory problems through his testimony:

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

"To be exact". Nothing wrong with long term memory, anyhow...

He served his time in Seymour, Indiana while his peers were used as cannon fodder in Europe and elsewhere.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged. 
Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Was there anything about Seymour, Indiana that might be of interest here?

How about this?
SEYMOUR, Ind.  (WDRB) -- Searchers in Seymour, Indiana, look underground for some of the secrets of World War II -- Nazi secrets, to be precise.

The Allies shipped Nazi planes to Freeman Field so pilots and engineers could fly them, take them apart, and put them back together again.

What they learned was important, because American planes weren't as advanced.

What happened to those planes after the war is still a mystery.
 


http://www.wdrb.com/story/17041764/nazi-secrets-wwii-planes-buried-under-seymour-ind-airport

I think Jack was pretty good at keeping secrets.


beowulf wrote:


he US unemployment rate in 1944 was the lowest it has ever been, the lowest it ever will be, 1.2%.  As I've written elsewhere, you know your economy is at full employment when you're giving German POWs drivers licenses and work vehicles.


http://monetaryrealism.com/this-is-what-full-employment-looks-like/


And Jack Dougherty can't find a job between 1944 and 1952?  Hell, the GI Bill would have reimbursed his employer for half his first year salary.
Again from Jack's testimony: Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.\

Okay. So we know Jack is "mistaken" about jobs being hard to come by. We also know that he claims to have used employment agencies.

One thing these agencies are good at is ringing every cent they can out of the government. If I understand the system correctly, the agencies got paid for each person placed in employment - and the more difficult the case, the higher the payment. 

In the case of Dougherty, one would expect any agency to use the GI Bill as a dangle to prospective employees to get him into employment. Combine that with record low unemployment, and it becomes difficult to believe Jack really was unemployed all those years.

The question that arises from that is, if he was not unemployed - why claim to be?
 
 
Re: Jack Edwin Dougherty
 by Guest on Wed 14 Aug 2013, 6:17 pm




Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No. 
Mr. BALL - None at all? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.


So, no medical treatment whatsoever whilst serving according to Jack.


Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see a gun around there? 
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?


What kind of lawyer would let the above exchange pass by?  Rhetorical question BTW



Credit Guest
Guest
 
 
 
This "retarded" characterization was used by Truly moments after the assassination, when he and Officer Marrion Baker rushed inside toward the freight elevators. To quote some passages from The Girl On the Stairs (Barry Ernest):



First, p. 347, when Vickie Adams got to the 1st floor about a minute after the shooting:



"I remember saying to a fairly big black man inside the building right near the loading dock right after I got down the stairs that I thought the President may have been shot. I don't know what his name is. I do know that he worked for the Depository and I think he was a warehouse worker."


There's a footnote to this, on p. 417:



"Curiously, Officer Marrion Baker also saw a black man in the same general area. During a December, 2004 telephone interview, the now-retired Baker told me when he and building manager Roy Truly reached the rear of the Depository on their way to the stairs, he noticed an 'older, large black man sitting toward the back stairs, near the elevators there. Baker said the man was the only person he saw in that area. When he asked Truly about him, Truly said the man was an employee and was 'slightly retarded'.


I'm pretty sure this was Troy West, whose wrapping paper work table was approximately 20 feet from the freight elevators. West was 5'9 1/2" but with a sizable Afro. He weighed a scant 155 lbs, but he was 56 years old. I think the years (Adams was interviewed in 2002) added some size to Adams' and Baker's memories of this black man. Troy West also said in basically every interview that he hung around in the vicinity of his wrapping table.

But, although Troy was not the sharpest pencil in the drawer, I wouldn't consider him even slightly retarded. His testimony is lucid enough, for someone with only a 7th grade education. Personally I think West played an ancillary role in the TSBD in-house portion of the JFK conspiracy, keeping an eye on the elevators, while they were being utilized immediately after the assassination. Making extra-sure nobody walked in by surprise, two minutes after the shooting, when the west freight elevator descended. So terming him "slightly retarded" was Truly's way of diverting suspicion.
 
 
Credit G Parker


Truly:  And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has been. 
 




Credit Guest. Lee Farley




Included in the Warren de Brueys report of December 2, 1963, is a list of travelers to Mexico & Latin America in September 1963 departing by air from New Orleans.  The FBI were searching passenger lists to ascertain whether Lee Harvey Oswald was onboard any flights that departed NOLA to Mexico City on or about September 17, 18, or 19.

The lists are contained CD75 pages 600-615.

On pages 604-606 is a manifest of names from Eastern Airlines daily 7:55am flight to Mexico City.



http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10477&relPageId=608

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10477&relPageId=610



On the September 18 list is a James E. Dougherty Jr. who I am mildly interested in.
 
 
Below is a link to the actual record in the National Archives:

http://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=893&mtch=15&cat=all&tf=F&sc=24994,24995,24996,24998,24997,24993,24981,24983&q=Jack+Dougherty&bc=sl,fd&txt_24995=Jack+Dougherty&op_24995=0&nfo_24995=V,24,1900&rpp=10&pg=2&rid=1616146&rlst=6858482,7902841,7923741,8010564,1616146
 
 
 

Here is a screenshot of the record from Ancestry.



https://s1289.photobucket.com/user/richardh11/media/JackDoughertyMilitaryService_zpsc2618233.jpg.html?filters[user]=137721714&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0" />

The lists are important when examined, thanks for the link Mick!They are important enough to post here and discuss.





Lovelady and Dougherty himself have removed Jack from the crew.
Arce I suspect would have done the same.

Lovelady swaps Dougherty for Bonnie Ray Williams
You or I would not confuse a burly white guy for a black man.

Yet Bonnie adds Dougherty and his pal Hank!

All normal accounts are 5 men were laying plywood.
2 white 2 black and one hispanic.

Now I'm sure the boss Shelley would have picked the crew of five and was the same that did floor FIVE... so why nothing from the man who knew exactly whom he had picked for such a task.
Did he let them swap jobs when they felt like it?
Four weeks to lay plywood on floor five?

Okay here is floor five.

75' X 75' or 5625 sq ft.
interior likely 70x70 of floored area. or 4900 sq ft
each sheet of plywood is 4x8 or 32 sqft
divided into the area we get 153 sheets of plywood to re-floor 5.
Four weeks or 4 x 5 would equal 8 sheets laid down per day!
Whoa is that slow.... 5 guys laying 8 sheets a day?

It only gets worse if they had more help and or worked Saturday.


Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Speech disorders during WWII;
http://jshd.pubs.asha.org/article.aspx?articleid=1742883


Good show Mick!
Cheers, Ed

I'd say it's possible he had mild dysphasia 

Dysphasia is a type of disorder where a person has difficulties comprehending language or speaking due to some type of damage in the parts of the brain responsible for communication. The symptoms of dysphasia vary based on the region of the brain that was damaged. There are different regions responsible for understanding language, speaking, reading, and writing, though typically they are found in the left side of the brain. Sometimes dysphasia is also referred to as aphasia, though generally it's considered a less severe version of aphasia.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-dysphasia-definition-causes-symptoms.html

Something like that could certainly lead to emotional distress at times.

We know that five employees were taken to the PLO vice station before 2pm. Arce, Williams and Shelley in one car and Dougherty and Lovelady in another. What was the criteria used to select the five? I suspect they were identified as the floor laying crew.

Agreed Colin.
Likely based on what Shelley said to the cops as he poured them coffee and chatted.

Greg if he had a speech disorder I suspect your conclusion would be a good one.
The temporary conditions that would not require "medical treatment" were the best fit for his testimony. Unless we get some record otherwise

But have we ruled out tourettes?
Who would hire a confused cursing burly guy? 

Seriously there are mentions in the newspapers in Seymour of measles and scarlet fever outbreaks.

If you consider Jack an adult he could have have severe reaction.
Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM) is a neurological, ... side of the body (hemiplegia), seizures, slurred speech, cranial nerve paralysis (palsy), ... has been reported in adults with ADEM, but appears to be a rare occurrence in children. ... identified as resulting in ADEM include influenza, measles, mumps, rubella, ...
Just a guess though.

Would Jack have special duties he performed on base, besides playing an instrument in the band what exactly was his MOS
http://www.army-portal.com/jobs/band/

And when I read his testimony it is odd he knows his service length but messes up the TSBD start date. Is it he has some Asperger or Autism Spectrum Disorder?
Would it be September 17, 1952?

...put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.
Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.
Mr. BALL - 1940 what?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---
Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.
Mr. BALL - 1952?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.


And what of Freeman Field and the 405th?





Freeman Field is located in Seymour, Indiana, about 60 miles south of Indianapolis. It was named to honor Captain Richard S. Freeman, a 1930 graduate of West Point. Captain Freeman helped establish Ladd Field in Alaska and was its first commander. He held the Distinguished Flying Cross, was awarded the Makay trophy, and was one of the pioneers of the Army Air Mail Service. At the time of his death, he had 6,000 flying hours. Captain Freeman was killed on February 6, 1941, in a crash of a B-17 he was piloting near Lovelock, Nevada.

The aircraft was equipped with the then secret Norden bomb sight and had extensive equipment for cold weather flying experiments, The B-17 was on its way to Wright Field when it exploded in mid-air. Sabotage was suspected, but never proven.

Being exact is important to Jack.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.
Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

well the field did close shop soon after.
May 5th, 1945 Field deactivated

But if he was in the band,

405th Army Air Force Band activated, 1 Jan 1943
STATIONS: Freeman AAF, IN
and again
405th AAF Band (activated 01/01/1943)

or

July, 1943
Open House for Visiting Youths to Mark July 4th Celebration.
405th Army Band formed here 6 months ago.

although another source has this to say,

The first 500 men arrived in December 1942. Initial organization was 35th - 36th - 1079th and 1080th Two Engine Flying traing Squadrons (TEFT). Included were the 447th Base Headquarters and Air Base Squadron, 2nd Weather Squadron, Medical Detatchment, 856th Signal Service, Army Nurse Corps, 1087th Guard Squadron, 742nd WAC Post Headquarters Company, Women's Airforce Service Pilots (WASP), 320th Aviation Squadron (Colored) (arrived January 21st, 1943), 405th Army Air Force band and 907th QuarterMaster Corps

Could be Jack was first of 500 to take up residence in the newest airbase around?

October 24 '42 - Jan 1 '43 is 2months 7days or nine weeks, not sure about WWII but Army recruit training is 10 weeks. So it is very close!

Jake Sykes wrote:Good points Paul. Well said. In line with what you are saying, it is also significant to consider that there absolutely had to be a consciousness on the part of the entire work crew there that if they didn't work to successfully isolate the focus of the authorities' attention (LHO) then they were drawing the attention of those very same authorities crushingly down upon themselves. Big time. I'm quite sure they were all quite eager to see it pinned on one person and one person alone, and that would be without some possible ulterior motive one or more may have had due to a possible level of involvement in whatever kind of a plot they may have been led to believe was afoot that day.

Hey Jake,

just casually re-reading through this thread and came across your post.

What you have said here highlights the fact that even though Lee Oswald had a rock solid alibi (out front on the steps with witnesses) the other male workers would have all been shitting themselves. 

Imagine if the likes of Frazier and others standing next to Oswald or close by, sensed that the authorities were going after Lee, when clearly Frazier and the others would have known where Oswald was at the time of the shooting. The terror and the fear would have been overwhelming for most. If they did remember Oswald out on the steps, chances are they kept their mouths shut, we have Frazier to support that notion.

JD as far as I can tell was charged with opening up in the mornings and no doubt had responsibilities in doing so and no doubt had keys to the warehouse.

Until I see a medical report to suggest otherwise I'm not buying the retard card, not just yet anyways.

Who gives an employee these resposibilities if they are mentally challenged, especially back in '63.

I may have this wrong but something doesn't seem right here imo

Credit Lee Farley 2012


The Eisenberg memo.


Identity of the assassin.

Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty


March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository.



The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission.



Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates. 



The “retardation” is simply a cover story.



Here is the memo:



MEMORANDUM

TO: J Lee Rankin

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin



I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty.



On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department.

They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department.



In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22,

Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[


SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7)



I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons.



(1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD.

Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone.


(2) His story is very thin.

(a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch.

(b) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project.



1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367)





(c) Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor.

(d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor.

(e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched

(f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45.

(3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.”



cc: Ball

Belin

Craig

Adams

Specter

Redlich

One often becomes confused with times etc. when one has to incorporate a lie into their statements, as it doesn't fit and causes problems and inconsistencies. Just look at Marion Baker, also not a retard but looks ridiculous under examination as he had to merge two stories, and couldn't.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:One often becomes confused with times etc. when one has to incorporate a lie into their statements, as it doesn't fit and causes problems and inconsistencies. Just look at Marion Baker, also not a retard but looks ridiculous under examination as he had to merge two stories, and couldn't.

Yes, and that is why we have the situation where MORE THAN ONE person "has been especially confused since the assassination."

Truly's comment is suspicious especially in regard to its prophetic qualities... or its intent as a subtle warning.

Ed. Ledoux wrote:One often becomes confused with times etc. when one has to incorporate a lie into their statements, as it doesn't fit and causes problems and inconsistencies. Just look at Marion Baker, also not a retard but looks ridiculous under examination as he had to merge two stories, and couldn't.

And of course Linnie Mae. 

https://youtu.be/FnwhfOQz3Fg

Did Lovelady smoke? Did Dougherty smoke?

The man sitting in the chair at the DPD as Oswald is led past seems to me to be one of the same as the guy out front at the TSBD steps smoking. Just my take. Certainly seems a little different to Lovelady, again just my take and I could be way off.



Man at DPD as Oswald is led passed                 Bill Lovelady early '64                              Smoking man at front steps TSBD

All the same guy.

Id bet a railcar o cash those are cigs Mick.



Ed

"All the same guy."

Bart, clearly youve not sniffed enough glue.
There needs to be two, possibly three Loveladys for all the doubling of Oswalds in the Depository.
Cant have a stray unaccountable Oz with no extra BNL to cover for it.
Sheeesh

Barto has KO'd Hargrave with Hosty's note, which makes me wonder, Did Armstrong completely strike out in terms of unearthing the Hosty note? For one who is idolized for his vast range and depth of research, is this not a significant embarrassment? After all, it stops the clock for Oswald being on the 6th floor. Stops it dead in its tracks.