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Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

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Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by James K. Olmstead on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:19 am

Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

For the sake of argument forget concerns dealing with connections to a specific intelligence agency and just consider if "known actions" indicate a connection to
any agency, in some manner, that clearly indicate to any other intelligence agency
"Hands Off Oswald".

 The best example of "Hands Off Oswald" is the A. J. Hidell, photo id card of Lee Harvey Oswald.  In my opinion this card, as well as the shot record, with the Hidell name, was in fact Oswald's get out of jail free card.

 Why do I support that consideration?  Because he played that card on August 10, 1963 and had he lived it might have supported his "Patsy" claim after his arrest in Dallas, in November. Remember Oswald demanded to have the FBI brought in when he was being booked before the NOPD acted on potential interest in this matter to the FBI. 

Many support that this action was to aid him in getting to Cuba, I support the consideration that playing the card was critical in allowing him to continue un-hampered in New Orleans, dealing with 544 Camp St.,the HRWU and the FPCC
operations in New Orleans.

Background basics:

When Oswald was arrested there were in his wallet
1.  Selective Service notice of classification.
2.  Selective Service registration certificate.
3.  A certificate of service in the U.S. Marine Corps

 All three cards being in his own name.

Also in his wallet at that time were a Selective Service notice of classification and a Marine certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell.

On the Hidell Selective Service card there appeared the signature, "Alek J. Hidell," and the photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oswald tells the FBI basically the following during the interview:

During the latter part of May of this year he received a membership card which bore a date of May 28, 1963, and was made out in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD and was signed by V.T. Lee.

He described this card as being grey in color and signifying membership in the national organization.

A short time thereafter, he said, he received in the mail a white card which showed that he was made a member of the New Orleans chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

This card was dated June 6, 1963. It was signed A.J. Hidell and it bore in the lower right hand corner the number 33 which he said indicated membership number.

Oswald was interviewed by S.A. John Lester Quigley on Saturday, August 10, 1963, he explains who A.J. Hidell is and his association to him thru the FPCC, at the time he had on his possession a photo id that shows that Oswald is A. J. Hidell.

 Once Quigly turns over his interview to SA DeBruey, a simple check of FBI records would immediately have indicated to S.A. DeBruey that Oswald was a defector, with a dishonorable discharge from the Marines, who married a Russian woman. Only part of which, was mentioned by Oswald, in the August 10th interview, turned out to be true.

Experts on questioned documents from the Treasury Department and the FBI testified that the Hidell cards were counterfeit photographic reproductions made by photographing the Oswald cards, retouching the resulting negatives, and producing prints from the retouched negatives.

The Hidell signature on the notice of classification was in the handwriting of Oswald. (See app. X, p. 572.)

In Oswald's personal effects found in his room at 1026 North Beckley Avenue in Dallas, was a purported international certificate of vaccination signed by "Dr. A. J. Hidell," Post Office Box  30016, New Orleans. It certified that Lee Harvey Oswald had been vaccinated for smallpox on June 8, 1963, 2 days after
FPCC membership card date. This, too, was a forgery. The signature of "A. J. Hideel" was in the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no "Dr. Hideel" licensed to practice medicine in Louisiana.

The key question here is:

1. How serious was the FBI about the FPCC in New Orleans?

Two conflicting sources of identification on the person of any suspect arrested is a clear warning sign, during the initial stages of any investigation on the suspect arrested. Especially when the investigation concerns a group that the FBI has a great deal of interest in.

The two forms of ID should have rendered Quigley, DeBrueys and the FBI, to be more suspicious of Oswald and the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activities in New Orleans at this point in time, placing Oswald on the National Security Index, that Hoover was later upset about, with his absence. However, any concern dealing with Oswald/Hidell, is dropped, ignored or is it considered a notice of Oswald's "Bona Fides" and he should be allowed to continue his actions, without interference.

jko

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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by James K. Olmstead on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:05 am

70 views no replies or comments.  I must be so far off base, after years of absence in this case on dealing with the use of the Hidell alias, that perhaps I should re evaluate previous work, on this.

I still stand by my earlier work dealing with the purchase of the rifle and legal issues concerning the USG seizure of the rifle in two court cases....jko

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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by greg parker on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 9:23 am

James K. Olmstead wrote:70 views no replies or comments.  I must be so far off base, after years of absence in this case on dealing with the use of the Hidell alias, that perhaps I should re evaluate previous work, on this.

I still stand by my earlier work dealing with the purchase of the rifle and legal issues concerning the USG seizure of the rifle in two court cases....jko
Jim,

I slept on this overnight until I had a chance to check something.

The NO arrest is as confusing as hell as to what he had on him and what he didn't and I think you may have gotten confused with it as well (unless it's still me who is!!!???).

The thing is, I don't see anything that says Oswald had the Hidell Selective Service Card and Marine Certificate of Service cards on him at that time - although Quigley's testimony is so vague and confused it may give the impression he did.

In fact Quigley said he could not even positively identify the FPCC cards showed to him and explained this was because they had been taken by the police as evidence...

Which is the crux of more confusion at my end.

Oswald was arrested on the Friday. Quigley's visit was on the Saturday... yet according to Quigley, Oswald showed him those cards. Later when asked to ID them, he suddenly says he can't because the police held them as evidence.

So do police allow prisoners to hang on to evidence against them overnight while in jail?


Mr. McCLOY. One other thing. I have to leave shortly to go to lunch, but on page 7 of this report you described these membership cards. 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir. 
Mr. McCLOY. Did he have the membership cards in his possession at that time? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; he did, sir. 
Mr. McCLOY. You saw them? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; I did, sir. I think the last you will notice, in that last sentence he had in his possession both cards and exhibited both of them. 
Mr. McCLOY. Right. One of them was, at least one of them, was signed A. Hidell? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes, sir; that is correct. 
Mr. McCLOY. Do we have those cards? 
Mr. STERN. I believe we do. I do not have them here. 
Mr. McCLOY. But it is important to have them because the name Hidell was in the handwriting--but these are membership cards purporting to be membership cards in the Fair Play for Cuba organization.
Would you be able to identify these cards if you saw them, Mr. Quigley, as the ones that were shown in Oswald's possession exhibited to you? 
Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't believe I could truthfully say if you showed me a card, these two cards now that those were the identical ones.
From the description and the data that I have recorded I could say they were similar. 

Mr. McCLOY. All right. 
Mr. QUIGLEY. I don't just feel I could identify them. Bear this in mind, sir; this material was evidence as far as the New Orleans Police Department was concerned at the time, we couldn't take this material. 
Mr. McCLOY. I understand. 


Getting back to the Hidell selective service card and the certificate of service card, if he did have those cards on him in the August arrest, why would obviously fake ID be given back to him? And if he did have them, but they were not given back to him, how do they end up (allegedly) in his wallet in Dallas on Nov 22?

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by James K. Olmstead on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:51 pm

Greg: I don't want to rob you of any more sleep, but I might.

quick note from the my H.W. files.

Martello asked LHO for his wallet during the first stages of his interview. I'm not sure when it was returned to him but it was missing two items, that were later turned over to the SS I believe on the 23rd of November when they asked for Oswald's file.

I fully agree that there maybe some confusion on the contents of his wallet on the part of many, including myself. However besides the concerns of other researchers, mine are basically based on the following Ex Session of the HSCA, which can be read at:

JFKcountercoup: 112 MI Fort Sam Houston

HISTORY MATTERS

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/02/112-mi-fourth-army-fort-sam-houston_05.html

Bill Kelly is responsible for a lot of good material available to researchers. This is just one concerning the A.J. Hidell id and LHO's arrest in N. O.

COLONEL ROBERT JONES:

"Upon my assignment to 112, I was appointed the operations officer for the entire group. The 112 MI group had seven regions under its operational control which encompassed a five-state area: Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma.

I was directly responsible for all counterintelligence, operations background investigations, domestic intelligence and any special operations in this area."

The indications by Col Jones in this session are that their pre-22 November 1963 file on Lee Harvey Oswald, considered that Oswald and Hidell were one and the same, based on their New Orleans agents report to Col Jones on the arrest Aug 9th.

The only item of evidence that could have confirmed that was a ID card with Oswald photo and the name A.J. Hidell.

Before we go on please re visit the transcript....jko

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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by greg parker on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 6:08 pm

jko wrote:Greg: I don't want to rob you of any more sleep, but I might.
Go for it!

On the rest, I know I'm sticking my neck out, but I think I have to disagree with you and Bill here.


JKO wrote:Martello asked LHO for his wallet during the first stages of his interview. I'm not sure when it was returned to him but it was missing two items, that were later turned over to the SS I believe on the 23rd of November when they asked for Oswald's file.
That was a list of some sort, mainly in Russian and a small photo of LHO

From Quigley's testimony:

At this time, Lieutenant Martello went to his files, removed from the files the evidence that had been taken from Oswald on August 9, 1963. In going through these documents, he noted this piece of paper that had what appeared to him to be foreign writing, he felt that it probably was Russian but he did not know. He turned this over to the Secret Service. He related to me that at the time he had questioned Oswald on August 10, 1963, prior to the time that he had called the FBI office, that he had gone through items in Oswald's wallet, which is a normal procedure for the police to do, for background identification, and so forth, and among the items in his wallet was this piece of paper, and in the discussion that pursued, apparently this particular document and a small photograph of Oswald inadvertently became involved with the evidence that was being handled in the case at the time, and the file was then put away, and it was not gone back into, as I understand it, until this interview of the 23d, when he discovered this document. 

The small photo that "got mixed up with the evidence" looks to me like it was used to create the fake Hidell IDs. 
------------------------

Jones, imo, confused himself in the following exchange:

MR. JONES: I do not recall at this time stating that Oswald was carrying a Selective Service card, unless I was told by the source in the police department that he had one. I had no other way of knowing that information. 

It reads: “According to information he has received, Oswald was carrying a Selective Service card having the name Alex Hidell.” If I had made that statement, I received it from the source in the police department. 

The next sentence is, “Jones stated intelligence records here reflect a reference to Ana J. Hidell.” I believe that is a typographical error on the name. I think that should be “Aka and not “Ana.” 

There it is - the whole reason Jones believed that Oswald carried Hidell ID in NO... is that he "believes" "Ana J Hidell" should read "AKA Hidell". I couldn't disagree more with Jones on that.

How it should read is "An A.J. Hidell"

To believe Jones, you would have to believe that the name "Alex" is non-existent on the documents and that the alias was "AKA J HIdell".

What fooled Jones was that the "A" for Alex was written as a large sized small "a" as in which is how some people do write a capital "A"

I don't believe the Hidell ID existed before the NO arrest and I don't believe he had the fake ID when arrested in Dallas.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by James K. Olmstead on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 4:25 am

>MR. JONES: I would estimate the middle of 1963. I cannot be specific, though. Mr. Chairman, because I spent too many years, but I would believe it was the middle of 1963 when he was arrested in New Orleans, and I had liaison with the New Orleans police and through our regional office in New Orleans, they provided me with his arrest, his activities and we carded him under both the name of A. J. Hidell and Lee Harvey Oswald.<

1. Carding him under both the name of A.J. Hidell and Lee Harvey Oswald, through their regional office in New Orleans. Jones is not the man who collected the information on Oswald, he is presenting details on the file.  The id of the "agent" is not mentioned. IMHO if he is abit vague its because of the timeframe from 1963 and the Ex Session.  I don't have details on the New Orleans agent, but I wish I did.

Having a FPCC card with the name of AJH on it does not associate LHO and AJH as the same person.  If that was the case he would also be filed under V.T.Lee. To associate the name to the person
needs a ID card, not a membership card.  If otherwise I find it hard to accept as fact.

2.  >HSCA: Upon learning of the name A. J. Hidell, what did you do?<

>MR. JONES: I then went through my card index and checked the name A. J. Hidell and found that it had also a name of Lee Harvey Oswald, aka – which is “also known as”. And I pulled the file for Lee Harvey Oswald, and it was at that time that I learned the information of Oswald’s defection to Russia, his travel in Russia and his return along with his pro-Cuba activities in New Orleans.<

The card index contained two card, one for A. J. Hidell with the name of Lee Harvy Oswald as a alias.  Jones was first asked of the name AJH not LHO.

3. >MR. DODD: I am just curious on one point, Colonel. You again, responding to Counsel’s questions initially, you mentioned that you had a file on Hidell, A. J.

MR. JONES: A. J. Hidell, yes sir.

MR. DODD: Aka Oswald. I am curious if you can tell us, tell the Committee how it was that you did not have two files, given the fact that this seemed to be information pointing to two individuals.

MR. JONES: We do not, or we did not, I should clarify that, keep two files on an alias. We would have two cards, but not two files on an alias. We would have two cards but one file. And in the cross reference, the Hidell card would refer to the Oswald card, and there we would look at the Oswald card and file and pull the Oswald file.<

As noted in the question, it would seem that the information was pointing to two individuals, but the card would direct the investigator to Lee Harvey Oswald. Therefore, the card only indicates that this is a known alias of Lee Harvey Oswald and not another individual.  The
only way any field agent could make this notation is if there was photo id that confirms that fact.  Since there is no known AJH associated with the FPCC as a individual, in his area of operations, it is only associated with LHO and New Orleans.  If the card was another individual it would have all the known info about that person as did the Oswald card.  They considered AJH and LHO the same person.  One has to ask how they arrived at that conclusion.

Two considerations:
  A.  They had evidence such as a photo id, from New Orleans.
  B.  They created the AJH card on or after 22 Nov 1963. (possible but unsupported)

4.  This where confussion starts:

>MR. DODD: How did you establish that it was an alias?

MR. JONES: Because we had him listed – I do not know what you have available here. There is a piece of paper, the literature that he was passing out, that had his name at the bottom of it as A. J. Hidell and he was arrested as Lee Harvey Oswald.<

 Col Jones does not know what they have and he only mentions "a piece of paper" and "the literature" with the name AJH, he does not mention or indicates they have a copy of the ID card in question, in his file.  We have no idea what material was actually in the file,
there may have only been a field report or there could have been copies of the material examined in New Orleans. We only know that the file indicates A. J. Hidell was "arrested as Lee Harvey Oswald" and not as a individual named A. J. Hidell.

5.  Second point of confussion:

>"MR. JONES: I do not recall at this time stating that Oswald was carrying a Selective Service card, unless I was told by the source in the police department that he had one. I had no other way of knowing that information.<

>It reads: “According to information he has received, Oswald was carrying a Selective Service card having the name Alex Hidell.” If I had made that statement, I received it from the source in the police department.<

>The next sentence is, “Jones stated intelligence records here reflect a reference to Ana J. Hidell.” I believe that is a typographical error on the name. I think that should be “Aka and not “Ana.<

A.  Others assume that the 2nd comment above applies to the 22 November arrest and not the New Orleans arrest, which it might.  However, I don't think does. I believe Col Jones is reading a section of the New Orleans field report and the agent saw the SS card.  I maybe wrong. 

B. I believe the third comment applies to what Col. Jones reported to the San Antonio FBI office and that report was sent thru SA to Dallas and may have had typos from SA and not Jones, and wants to
clear that up.

The only details Col Jones knows concerns what he has from New Orleans, not Dallas.  Since he was not questioned after 22 November, 1963 by any offical body, details concerning what Oswald
had on his possession at the time of his November arrest, does not apply to what one must consider dealing with the 112 MI file.  I think the first two comments confirm that.

6. >MR. DODD: Can I interrupt here, counsel, for a second? Is it possible, Colonel, that Anna J. Hidell could be “an A. J. Hidell”?<

I honestly believe that is a spacing typo issue "an" and "A" are spaced apart but someone put "anA" from the SA field office forward.

7. >MR. DODD: I have two other questions. You mentioned when you would receive information through your source on the police department about the apprehension, the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald, in search of your files that you then called the FBI office, the FBI office in Dallas or San Antonio.

MR. JONES: I called the FBI office in San Antonio.

MR. DODD: Did you then call the FBI office in Dallas.

MR. JONES: I either called them or they contacted me. I do not know who got to them first, but I know within just a few minutes, I was talking to the people in Dallas, the FBI people.

MR. DODD: Do you recall specifically who you spoke to?

MR. JONES: I knew Mr. Gordon Shankin, the FBI agent in charge of Dallas. I would have asked for him. Whether I spoke to him, or whether he took down all the information, I am not sure. But I am sure that I would have asked for Mr. Gordon Shankin when I called to give him the information because I knew him personally and met with him and talked to him and would have called the person in charge.

MR. DODD: Did you have any reason, or were you contacted on that day or the next day, by any other agency of government, the CIA, the DIA, regarding this information that you had in your files?

MR. JONES: No, sir. I personally was not contacted again. They may have contacted an assistant, I had a military assistant and a civilian assistant.<

I have no problem with anyone showing my errors in judgement, I just do not feel Oswald had time or access of equipment and materials to create the fake ID after his New Orleans Arrest. I consider he had time and ability to create it pre moving to New Orleans, UNLESS it was prepared for him after the arrest for the trip to Mexico......jko

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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by greg parker on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 9:27 am

Jim, thanks for the detailed reply. Just quickly:-

1) I am one of the others who assumes that the 2nd comment  you refer to applies to the 22 November arrest and not the New Orleans. It just seems to me that Dallas is the context.

2) I firmly believe that the document read "an AJ Hidel"  (in other words it was referring to an alleged separate person) and did not say "Ana J Hidell" as originally thought, or "AKA J Hidell" as claimed by Jones - and which is the only way this name gets turned into an alias.

3) The two pieces of pocket litter that got caught up in the evidence in NO included a "small photo". I agree, Oswald did not have time to make fake Hidell ID, and if you take away Jones incorrect reference to "AKA", there is no evidence that any HIdell ID existed at that time.  But the small photo which ended up with the Secret Service could be used to make such false ID to be found on Oswald's person in Dallas. Trouble is, Oswald never had it, and that is supported by no mention of it in the reports of any of the arresting officers. Rose later claimed that Oswald gave his name as Hidell, but Rose is now known to be a liar and a framer of innocent men.

4. Jones either lied or misremembered about the index cards. I think he lied. 

It would be highly unusual if we agreed on every single aspect of this case. This is one of those areas where we diverge, but that in no way derails all the crossover areas we have. Where I am, I owe a great deal to standing on your shoulders.


Last edited by greg parker on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by James K. Olmstead on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 10:00 am

I can agree to disagree on points.  The use of the name
A. J. Hidell, by Oswald has many concerns.

One which can fit into both areas of research.

You may consider Col Jones as not telling the truth.  I
can to.

Consider the one factor not presented. 

Jones evaluates the arrest report by the N.O. agent of LHO.

As presented in the Ex Session he considered LHO a
threat to National Security. YET, he did not forward the name/file to be included into the National Security
Index of Subversives, which was within his responsibility to do so.  Why?  Was it known to Jones
LHO was a "spook" operating in his area of operations?   Was the name A. J. Hidell Oswalds get out of jail card to the FBI and the 112th MI?

Poker game starts tommorrow not today....jko

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Re: Oswald's get out of jail free Patsy card.

Post by greg parker on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 1:59 pm

Poker game starts tomorrow not today....jko

Time zones get me every time! I'm sure he'll make an excellent pupil.

_________________
Mixing Pop and Politics he asks me what the use is
I offer him embarrassment and my usual excuses
While looking down the corridor
Out to where the van is waiting
I'm looking for the Great Leap Forward

            Billy Bragg
-----------------------------
 Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
             Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me

“God favors drunks, small children, and the cataclysmically stoned...” Steve King
"The worst thing about some men is that when they are not drunk they are sober." Billy Yeats
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dino Martin



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