Oswald, Hidell and the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency

September/October, 1962
The Oswald's meet the De Mohrenschildts. Marina moves in with Elana Hall. Lee has an aptitude test at the TEC and rents PO Box 2915, requesting all mail be forwarded to that box. Lee is referred by TEC to Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall, is employed at their base rate, and moves into the YMCA. They had been living on Mercades from August. June is baptized by the White Russian Church without Lee's knowledge.

November, 1962
The Oswald's reunite at 604 Elspeth but Marina moves out the following day to live with the Mellers before moving again to the Ford's, but reunites with Lee at the Elsbeth address on the 17th. Lee and Marina attend a family reunion at Robert's which does not include Marguerite. Marina has a written discussion with John in his notebook talking about various medical terms and drugs. John works in a military hospital and marina had been trained as a pharmacist. The same notebook contains the travel distance from the military base to Robert's house - details usually kept for tax purposes, indicating he may be falsely claiming to the trip as a tax deduction, or it was in fact, work-related.

December, 1962
Lee pays $190 off his State Department debt. The couple attend a New Year's Eve party at the Ford's.

January, 1963
On Jan 9, Lee pays another $100 off his dept. On Jan 14, he enrolls in a typing course. On January 27, he allegedly orders a pistol from Seaport Traders and pays a $10 deposit; the balance to be paid COD. Hearings of the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency into interstate traffic of mail-order firearms are held January 29 and 30. Seaport Traders is one of the mail-order companies of interest.  On January 29, Lee pays the balance owing on his debt of $106. 

February, 1963
The Oswald's attend 2 dinner parties, the first at the DeM's and the second at Everett Glover's on the 22nd. They meet Ruth Paine for the first time at the latter.

March, 1963
March 2, Marina and Lee allegedly move into 214 W. Neely (I believe it was really only Marina and June). March 7, another hearing on mail-order weapons is held by aforementioned senate subcommittee. On March 12, Lee allegedly orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods by mail, purchasing the money order dyring the "early morning". Also on that day, Ruth Paine visits Marina at the W. Neely address and they leave together - Ruth is noncommittal, but thinks they went to a park. Klein's is another company under the scrutiny of the subcommittee. Both pistol and rifle are shipped into Dallas on March 20 - despite being ordered around two months apart from different companies in different states. Also on March 20, Ruth again picks up Marina on W. Neely. Sometime after this, Marina allegedly takes a number of photos of Lee holding the weapons, together with the publications of opposing extreme left wing parties. The camera used is an Imperial reflex. This camera is also used to take some - but not all - of the photos allegedly taken by Lee of Edwin Walker's house in preparation for his alleged assassination attempt on the former general.

April, 1963
Lee is fired by J-C-S and has his last day on the 6th. He and Marina attend another dinner party. This time, both Ruth and Michael Paine are in attendance. On the 10th, a single shot is fired at Walker through his window. It misses. On the 12th, Lee files for unemployment. On April 24, he moves to New Orleans to find work and a now pregnant Marina moves to Irving to stay with Ruth.

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Supplementary information

The weapons
The pistol was shipped by the Railway Express Agency (REA) - an agency which had a very close association with the FBI. There would have been an advice placed in the PO Box to say that the parcel had to be picked up at the REA office and that ID would be needed. REA records show that "Hidell" picked up the parcel and paid the balance owing. How would this be possible? Well, Dale Myers claimed Oswald would have used his fake Hidell ID. The same ID that was obviously a fake. Texas law also required (and Myers concedes) that the purchaser of a pistol or handgun must obtain a letter of good character from a JP, or a County or District judge. This time, the excuse is that REA regs do not specifically state that they would withhold the consignment if such a letter was not produced. This line of thinking, if true, means REA was breaking Texas law. But in addition to that excuse, the head of REA stated that it "has approximately 32,000 of its own employees, with individuals retiring or leaving the service each day, being replaced by new employees...It would be practically impossible to exercise such close control over and communication with all of our delivery employees to keep within the requirements of the law..." - an admission it probably routinely broke the law and had virtually no real checks and balances in place, despite any state or federal law.

The rifle was shipped by US Mail direct to the PO Box. As it would not fit in the box, an advice would also be left for it to be picked up at the parcel pick-up window. Harry Holmes testified that all that would be required to pick it up would be the card left in the box as it would be assumed that the holder of the card had authorized access to the box. To put it another way, if the weapon had fit in the box, all that would be needed to get it was the key - obtaining it with the card from the box was seen as being no different.

Holmes also testified that Lee told him during questioning that he seldom went to the box and that part 3 of the box application was destroyed. Part 3 stated those who had access.

This box was a long walk from where Oswald worked. Given that, and given Holmes' testimony, I believe that Marina had access (and obviously a key) and that she, with the assistance of Ruth Paine, would collect the mail. Alternatively (and this would provide a rock solid reason to destroy part 3 against PO regs), Ruth Paine was listed as having access (and obviously a key) and she would collect the mail  whenever she was going to visit them.

The name game
Lee's father (and therefore Lee himself) was a distant cousin to Gen. Robert E. Lee.

Lee listed as a reference in NO, one Bob Hidell. Thanks to Tom Scully (credit where due - his most lucid and profound post), we know there was a H. Robert Hidell, aged 70 in 2011, who was a descendant of William Hidell, the Secretary to Confederate Army leader, Andrew Stephens. the "H" stood for Henry, but apparently he preferred his middle name.

The names allotted to AJ Hidell - Alek James also hold their own intrigue. Alek means "defender or helper of mankind" and James means "supplanter" which itself means someone who seizes power. The meaning of those names, given the civil war name they are attached to - and importantly, also given the ambush of a Northerner on Nov 22,1963 do give pause for thought. 

But there is one more name to consider: "DF DRITTAL" was listed on the pistol coupon as someone who vouched that Hidell was a US citizen and had not been convicted of any felonies.

Google does not throw out a single person in the world with the surname "Drittal". That in itself is proof that Oswald did not simply pluck the name at of thin air. What it does do is point to it having some other meaning.

And it does. I believe that DF stands for "Dienst Fur" so that the full meaning is  "Dienst Fur Drittal" - which is German for "service for a third party"

From Google Translate



Another timeline for a similar period should be read in conjunction with this one, dealing with Oswald's mail.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1203-oswald-and-forrest-gump

Just throwing this out for consideration:
I think it is possible that Oswald did order the pistol and used the fake Hidell id (without any photo attached) to test whether laws were being followed. He was paid for this work and this helped pay his State Dept debt. The pistol was then dropped off at a pre-arranged point and ended up in the hands of a Dallas police officer for use as a throw-down (after being disabled).

The use of a throw-down is well-documented in this famous Houston case.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1978/04/29/5-houston-policemen-are-fired-1-resigns-in-death-of-suspect/64bb9a5d-0753-4ec2-95ed-2ae102c629b7/

greg parker wrote:The name game
Lee's father (and therefore Lee himself) was a distant cousin to Gen. Robert E. Lee.

Lee listed as a reference in NO, one Bob Hidell. Thanks to Tom Scully (credit where due - his most lucid and profound post), we know there was a H. Robert Hidell, aged 70 in 2011, who was a descendant of William Hidell, the Secretary to Confederate Army leader, Andrew Stephens. the "H" stood for Henry, but apparently he preferred his middle name.

The names allotted to AJ Hidell - Alek James also hold their own intrigue. Alek means "defender or helper of mankind" and James means "supplanter" which itself means someone who seizes power. The meaning of those names, given the civil war name they are attached to - and importantly, also given the ambush of a Northerner on Nov 22,1963 do give pause for thought. 

But there is one more name to consider: "DF DRITTAL" was listed on the pistol coupon as someone who vouched that Hidell was a US citizen and had not been convicted of any felonies.

Google does not throw out a single person in the world with the surname "Drittal". That in itself is proof that Oswald did not simply pluck the name at of thin air. What it does do is point to it having some other meaning.

And it does. I believe that DF stands for "Dienst Fur" so that the full meaning is  "Dienst Fur Drittal" - which is German for "service for a third party"

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1203-oswald-and-forrest-gump

Just throwing this out for consideration:
I think it is possible that Oswald did order the pistol and used the fake Hidell (without any photo attached) to test whether laws were being followed. He was paid for this work and this helped pay his State Dept Dept. The pistol was then dropped off at a pre-arranged point and end up in the hands of a Dallas police officer for use as a throw-down (after being disabled).

Greg,

The "DF Drittal" connection to his purchase of the pistol to aid the government is brilliant! As well the name connections.

What surprises me is Oswald's connection to my great-great uncle, Robert E. Lee. I had no idea we were so closely related!

And the connection of the names A+J with Hidell...

I keep getting the impression Oswald was more deeply involved in the smoke and mirrors than anyone is letting on. The number of tantalizing correlations leading to an interconnecting warren of rabbit holes boggles the mind.

Seeing the above triggers connections in my head but nothing of definite import is immediately forthcoming. I might have to revisit the Ralph Fults tale for whatever is tickling my memory.

Terry W. Martin wrote:

greg parker wrote:The name game
Lee's father (and therefore Lee himself) was a distant cousin to Gen. Robert E. Lee.

Lee listed as a reference in NO, one Bob Hidell. Thanks to Tom Scully (credit where due - his most lucid and profound post), we know there was a H. Robert Hidell, aged 70 in 2011, who was a descendant of William Hidell, the Secretary to Confederate Army leader, Andrew Stephens. the "H" stood for Henry, but apparently he preferred his middle name.

The names allotted to AJ Hidell - Alek James also hold their own intrigue. Alek means "defender or helper of mankind" and James means "supplanter" which itself means someone who seizes power. The meaning of those names, given the civil war name they are attached to - and importantly, also given the ambush of a Northerner on Nov 22,1963 do give pause for thought. 

But there is one more name to consider: "DF DRITTAL" was listed on the pistol coupon as someone who vouched that Hidell was a US citizen and had not been convicted of any felonies.

Google does not throw out a single person in the world with the surname "Drittal". That in itself is proof that Oswald did not simply pluck the name at of thin air. What it does do is point to it having some other meaning.

And it does. I believe that DF stands for "Dienst Fur" so that the full meaning is  "Dienst Fur Drittal" - which is German for "service for a third party"

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1203-oswald-and-forrest-gump

Just throwing this out for consideration:
I think it is possible that Oswald did order the pistol and used the fake Hidell (without any photo attached) to test whether laws were being followed. He was paid for this work and this helped pay his State Dept Dept. The pistol was then dropped off at a pre-arranged point and end up in the hands of a Dallas police officer for use as a throw-down (after being disabled).

Greg,

The "DF Drittal" connection to his purchase of the pistol to aid the government is brilliant! As well the name connections.

What surprises me is Oswald's connection to my great-great uncle, Robert E. Lee. I had no idea we were so closely related!

And the connection of the names A+J with Hidell...

I keep getting the impression Oswald was more deeply involved in the smoke and mirrors than anyone is letting on. The number of tantalizing correlations leading to an interconnecting warren of rabbit holes boggles the mind.

Seeing the above triggers connections in my head but nothing of definite import is immediately forthcoming. I might have to revisit the Ralph Fults tale for whatever is tickling my memory.

The Robert E Lee connection
https://web.archive.org/web/20190410035733/https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-chart.php?name=4640+robert+e+lee&kin=9730+lee+harvey+oswald

I actually came up with the Drittal solution over  years ago and had forgotten about it. I was looking into the ordering of the pistol at the time and when I couldn't establish "Drittal was a bona fide surname, I wondered if it might be German (a language Oswald had been teaching himself in the Marines, along with Russian and Spanish). At the time, I was working in an employment agency and we had a German admin assistant. I asked her if it was German and she said it was. I then asked if there was any German phrase of three words ending in Drittal with the other words starting with DF - and she shot back straight away, "Dienst Fur Drittal". As you can see, Google Translate confirms. The truth was being hidden in plain sight.

There is no doubt he was working for an intel group (or thought he was) - government or private - perhaps with the latter simple being at arms length from a government agency.

I keep ending up back at the CAP program. It fits like a glove. I am certain this program operated with arms length assistance for the CIA externally (missions behind the Iron Curtain, or to third world spots at risk of the so-called domino effect). This is why recruits were taught Russian language, military tactics and culture and trained in courier work. But this program also operated internally - probably at arms length from the FBI, in anti-subversion efforts and in acting as informants in workplaces (which is how I think he was lured to work at the TSBD - From late September, Molina was without anyone keeping an eye on him. 

Bottom-line - He was being used wittingly or unwittingly by an intel group leading up to the assassination and was made an unwitting designated patsy in September/October. I say "a" patsy instead of "the" as I believe there were two or three other candidates should Oswald phone in sick that day or decide to buy a flag and go out and wave it up and down the street during the motorcade.  And I don't say "others" without some evidence, even if it is not rock solid.

FBI search for Hidell in Dallas.

Seaport Traders Mail Coupon:

Are we sure the Witness name is D F Drittall? The Capital D's in the name which I'd assume were written in the same hand are completely different. At least to my untrained eye. The full stops between D and F are weird too.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6i-eBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover


Ultimate sacrifice:
Lamar Waldron.

Talk of a possible connection between the Dodd committee and Oswald purchasing mail order weapons.

This subject is very interesting to me.

What are some good sources for more information and background on the committee and it’s investigators and their investigation into mail order firearms, sent to former juvenile delinquents, using aliases.

My understanding is Dodd was at least partially, trying to prevent surplus European Bolt action rifles from flooding the US market and hurting US companies.

Will Hart wrote:This subject is very interesting to me.

What are some good sources for more information and background on the committee and it’s investigators and their investigation into mail order firearms, sent to former juvenile delinquents, using aliases.

My understanding is Dodd was at least partially,  trying to prevent surplus European Bolt action rifles from flooding the US market and hurting US companies.

That is also my understanding - that Dodd was under a lot of pressure from companies like Colt. 

I am currently looking at the relationship between Dodd and Eastland and trying to determine if the SISS and/or Mississippi Sovereignty Commission could have played any part - or supplied any players.

Greg thanks for the response.

Obviously, Mr. Oswald’s actions parallel the Dodd committee quite remarkably. Lee is a genuine Certified juvenile delinquent, has history of “mental problems”, uses mail order, buys a European bolt action, with an alias. Other than that.......

Could anyone provide some links to the best sources to start with on the Dodd committee?

Will Hart wrote:Greg thanks for the response.

Obviously, Mr. Oswald’s actions parallel the Dodd committee quite remarkably. Lee is a genuine Certified juvenile delinquent, has history of “mental problems”, uses mail order, buys a European bolt action, with an alias. Other than that.......

Could anyone provide some links to the best sources to start with on the Dodd committee?

https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal64-1304349
https://www.archives.gov/legislative/guide/senate/chapter-13-judiciary-1947-1968.html#SSJD
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=wl9FAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA427&ots=avvTS8vuht&dq=The%20Senate%20Judiciary%20Juvenile%20Delinquency%20Subcommittee%20mail%20order%201963&pg=PA427#v=onepage&q=Juvenile%20Delinquency%20Subcommittee%20mail%20order%201963&f=false

have yet to locate any hearing transcripts unfortunately... but there are plenty of references to the material, Google the correct name of the subcommittee and other searches using "Dodd committee" "1963 gun control hearings etc.

greg parker wrote:I keep ending up back at the CAP program. It fits like a glove. I am certain this program operated with arms length assistance for the CIA externally (missions behind the Iron Curtain, or to third world spots at risk of the so-called domino effect). This is why recruits were taught Russian language, military tactics and culture and trained in courier work. But this program also operated internally - probably at arms length from the FBI, in anti-subversion efforts and in acting as informants in workplaces (which is how I think he was lured to work at the TSBD - From late September, Molina was without anyone keeping an eye on him. 

A 1958 newspaper clip found by Steve Thomas and posted at the ED Forum.

A FB friend spotted it and pointed the possible connection between the CAP program noted here and what it says in the second last paragraph.

Note that 1958 is the year prior to Oswald's "defection" so the time-frame fits.



I do not think that the grant given to Eunice Naylor had any connection to the "overseas tours".

Nor I am certain that the overseas tours are connected to the other evidence on anti-subversion programs - but it is at least a reasonable possibility.

A few random thoughts:

There's a lot about the Dodd Subcommittee and investigation of firearms traffic that's intriguing but seems to often get glossed over. Thomas Dodd, for instance, is always painted as a far-right anti-communist-- he was anti-communist and very conservative but had a long history of problems with the truly far-right ideology of military intelligence dating back to the '30s. Many longtime "Secret Americans" were no fans of his. His investigations into both juvenile delinquency and illegal weapons sales seem to have dovetailed with investigations not just of FPCC but also of the existential threat of the early '60s far right, specifically the American Nazi Party.

Like investigations of the FPCC, investigations of the ANP had a counterintelligence component. This seems to have eluded most researchers. The Soviets had been caught making overtures towards ANP members. Multiple members. And the tangentially-connected fringe ideology of Yockeyism with its rapprochement towards the Soviet Union represented a tangible security risk, one that various intelligence agencies were well-aware of even though they did not make much of it publicly.

I'd venture that the fear of youth being infected not only with communism but also then armed, or the possibility of fascists manipulated by the USSR and then armed through pernicious loopholes in American gun regulations, coexisted in the general unease and paranoia swirling about in the minds of leaders like Dodd.

Maybe that helps to explain the creation of the paradox of Lee Harvey Oswald, Commie firearms aficionado, just a bit?

rogerhucek wrote:A few random thoughts:

There's a lot about the Dodd Subcommittee and investigation of firearms traffic that's intriguing but seems to often get glossed over. Thomas Dodd, for instance, is always painted as a far-right anti-communist-- he was anti-communist and very conservative but had a long history of problems with the truly far-right ideology of military intelligence dating back to the '30s. Many longtime "Secret Americans" were no fans of his. His investigations into both juvenile delinquency and illegal weapons sales seem to have dovetailed with investigations not just of FPCC but also of the existential threat of the early '60s far right, specifically the American Nazi Party.

Like investigations of the FPCC, investigations of the ANP had a counterintelligence component. This seems to have eluded most researchers. The Soviets had been caught making overtures towards ANP members. Multiple members. And the tangentially-connected fringe ideology of Yockeyism with its rapprochement towards the Soviet Union represented a tangible security risk, one that various intelligence agencies were well-aware of even though they did not make much of it publicly.

I'd venture that the fear of youth being infected not only with communism but also then armed, or the possibility of fascists manipulated by the USSR and then armed through pernicious loopholes in American gun regulations, coexisted in the general unease and paranoia swirling about in the minds of leaders like Dodd.

Maybe that helps to explain the creation of the paradox of Lee Harvey Oswald, Commie firearms aficionado, just a bit?

Thanks Roger. That sounds like a promising line to follow. It reminds me of the 1940 Christian Front conspiracy case where some members were accused of being Communist infiltrators while those members themselves claimed they were being run by the FBI.

The opposition to Dodd's bill from the NRA and concerns about sportsmen having access to the rifles they need recalls the activities and ideology of the very obscure Office of Civilian Marksmanship, which basically has been mandated over the years to get more guns into the hands of civilians.

Their efforts were feeding the paramilitary group The Minutemen throughout the '60s, intentionally or not, and some of the official concern about interstate firearms traffic probably resulted from that relationship. A similar flood of weapons to rightwing paramilitaries and state militias happened in the 1980s, at another acme of cold war tension when WWIII seemed imminent. It's almost as if there's a quasi-official "gun spigot" that seems to turn on when the remote possibility of a land invasion of the continental US looms a little nearer.

Also, bear in mind that the NRA historically enjoyed many official privileges no other private organization did, so much so that there once were a number of quasi-public aspects to the organization.

The ideology of arming American civilians as a goal in and of itself is obscure nowadays but has quite a history that precedes the 20th century, wedded to American concepts of individual liberty as well as civil defense.

#NRA

rogerhucek wrote:The opposition to Dodd's bill from the NRA and concerns about sportsmen having access to the rifles they need recalls the activities and ideology of the very obscure Office of Civilian Marksmanship, which basically has been mandated over the years to get more guns into the hands of civilians.

Their efforts were feeding the paramilitary group The Minutemen throughout the '60s, intentionally or not, and some of the official concern about interstate firearms traffic probably resulted from that relationship. A similar flood of weapons to rightwing paramilitaries and state militias happened in the 1980s, at another acme of cold war tension when WWIII seemed imminent. It's almost as if there's a quasi-official "gun spigot" that seems to turn on when the remote possibility of a land invasion of the continental US looms a little nearer.

Also, bear in mind that the NRA historically enjoyed many official privileges no other private organization did, so much so that there once were a number of quasi-public aspects to the organization.

The ideology of arming American civilians as a goal in and of itself is obscure nowadays but has quite a history that precedes the 20th century, wedded to American concepts of individual liberty as well as civil defense.

The Office of Civilian Marksmanship looks like a valid avenue of research. By my own standards, the research is valid if it might move us forward with the assassination, but failing that, has value in and of itself.

I hadn't heard of, or come across it until this post. Certain groups or clubs, mostly associated with the NRA, were (still are?) entitled to x number of rifles and x rounds of ammunition toward practice. 

"Their efforts were feeding the paramilitary group The Minutemen throughout the '60s, intentionally or not, and some of the official concern about interstate firearms traffic probably resulted from that relationship."

That's the part that I'd like clarified. Why would there be concern if the weapons and ammunition were being sent legally via a program run through some official or semi-official government office?

The next question is, do we know what rifles were usually being sent?  

Here is some background, which includes a telling quote:

'A recruit in basic training has to fire only 250 rounds from an M16 to qualify for rifle use, he said. By comparison, it takes most marksmen six to 10 years of daily practice to qualify for national marksmanship contests. "
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1982/10/14/rifle-group-gets-back-on-target/3562c77d-9a16-42d1-8d55-5c27eafe796a/

So those marksmen who tried to replicate the feat of the assassin, practiced daily for 6 to 10 years? 

But that's not all, although they had to get the shots off and make at least two hits within the time the assassin did, they did have one luxury that the assassin never had -- they could take as much time needed as possible to make the first shot.

I can just see it now... the only practice Oswald needed was Marina imagining him dry firing on the veranda. Then on the big day, a very much under-reported event happened. 

Lee got delayed on the way to his sniper's nest by a 300 pound female in a wig named Sarah who asked he go out and watch the parade with her.

Lee, being the Southern Gentleman to the end, told her he would be watching from the 6th floor and would she care to join him?

Flattered, she agreed... and sent her doppelganger to take her place on the steps. 

Up on the 6th floor, Lee's new friend unpacked her lunch, consisting of 2 whole chickens, 6 corn dogs, a Popeye burger and a family size bottle of Dr Pepper. 

But before starting lunch, she couldn't help looking out the window to see if she could locate her friend, Geraldina Reid-Koustos. In doing so, she was seen by some witnesses who described her later as a tall, elderly and skinny man of color.  Close enough for government work.

Meanwhile, Lee was running behind schedule. He was in danger of  not being ready to take the shots. He only had one option.

He threw Sarah out the window, causing the needed delay in the motorcade while an ambulance arrived to pick up the epileptic who broke her fall. 

Sarah would later tell family members that she fell for Lee in a big way that day.  But please, don't tell Judyth about Sarah, who, in a certain light, was a dead ringer for Marina's tractor driving aunt, Sveat-Lotta. If Judyth finds out, it could get ugly.

Thanks, Greg, for engaging with a very esoteric avenue of research I haven't posted about or seen discussed in regards to the JFK assassination before. I would imagine it sounds pretty out there. But anyway I'd say the OCM / OCMP is most relevant in relation to the history of paramilitarism and gun ownership in the US. There are a lot of weird questions I like to ask the forum. I think it's relevant to the Dodd subcommittee in a roundabout way.

What's the line between a private group of individuals and a militia? The latter, contrary to the current definition of the word, once referred to the building blocks of the reserve system of the US army, and is enshrined in the second amendment as the reason for firearm ownership.

Where's the line that separates state-sanctioned activity from from private activity?

What's the difference between the "home guard" concept of WWII and the idea of the "stay-behind army"?

During WWII and slightly theareafter a man named C.B. Lister-- who was, if memory serves, once head of the OCM, NRA President, and editor of American Rifleman-- publicly proposed a home guard organization in America. It was to be called "The Minutemen." It's a common enough name for civil defense groups in America and it seems like it never got off the ground, but one wonders sometimes...

You wrote about "internal mobile security units" in Lee Harvey Oswald's Cold War; groups like this (sports clubs, hunting clubs, civil defense volunteers) formed the basis of the Minutemen of the early 1960s. Robert De Pugh and Richard Lauchli basically amalgamated a number of these groups into their own Minutemen. The Minutemen proceeded to hoard guns at an astonishing pace, burying most of them-- not something a hardscrabble, rural base typically finds financially expedient-- throughout the '60s. Henry Gonzalez, William Fulbright, and the Kennedy White House were alarmed by the rightwing backlash of the late '50s and early '60s; in their own ways these liberals attempted to investigate and thwart this trend-- JFK via the IRS. There was a sense in liberal and Left circles that the far-right was extremely dangerous. But the era of McCarthy was barely over; they had to be tactful and indirect.

The Minutemen always conceptualized themselves as a stay-behind group. What if, at some point, somebody deep in some branch of government agreed with them? Or at least pretended to?

For example, the CIA used the Minutemen as a conduit for weapons ostensibly meant for Cuban exiles. What if a lot of those weapons didn't make it into the hands of the Cubans? And wound up being buried for Der Tag or worse? I could see it being of concern to the White House if the flow of weapons to anti-Castro Cubans was being diverted by the rightwingers who were supposed to be cut-outs. The same thing applies to the mob. What if those weapons were going into the wrong hands-- the hands of people with an active grudge against the Kennedy White House?

Something like the Dodd subcommittee could be ostensibly looking at the deleterious influence of comic books and cheapo rifles, but looming behind this  could be all sorts of larger, darker concerns. Such as: was there treason afoot?

Roger, looks like your concerns were being raised in Congress in 1964. Also has some info on a raid of Harlem gun club members and the stats on the staggering amount of free ammunition distributed during 1963.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=oA7FWILiyJEC&lpg=PA11987&ots=dWZXEw9D4o&dq=%22the%20Tripod%20club%22%20harlem&pg=PA11987#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Tripod%20club%22%20harlem&f=false

The Harlem club story
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/05/13/archives/12000-rifle-cartridges-seized-from-harlem-gun-club-officers.html

Yep, that's one instance from the 1960s. There were many, many more. The biggest clutch of weapons was in California, connected to Nelson Bunker Hunt.

At one point-- I wish I had the source handy on this-- a Minuteman was asked how many guns they had, to which he replied that they were attempting to get ALL OF THEM. All the guns. It sounds insane but the scope of what they were up to is really staggering when you comb through the press accounts and books. I'm not looking to derail this thread but the gun hoarding thing + the federal government's covert complicity in it is major. Here's an article I found  a few years ago:

THE RIFLEMAN

By Patrick Symmes May 7, 1995
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/1995/05/07/the-rifleman/242805a1-8721-440a-ba96-3244976061f6/
[...]
"The rifles are being sold through a little and little-known Army agency called the Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, founded in 1907 after U.S. soldiers had proved unable to shoot straight during the Spanish-American War. Nearly a century later, the DCM has a $2.5 million budget, operates from a small suite of offices near Union Station, organizes the national shooting championship held annually at Camp Perry, Ohio, oversees a network of more than 1,300 affiliated shooting clubs, and gives away 15 million rounds of ammunition every year to those clubs and groups like the Boy Scouts of America.
The symbolic core of the program, however, is the arming of the American public with surplus M-1 rifles. The standard U.S. infantry weapon of the 1940s and 1950s, the M-1 is a high-powered semiautomatic rifle that can be accurate up to a thousand yards. The DCM is allowed -- in fact, required by congressional charter -- to sell 6,000 of them a year to those members of the public who can prove they are U.S. citizens over the age of 18, have not been convicted of any felony and have participated in high-powered rifle "activity." That is why I spent a Sunday standing, sitting and lying in the mud in Bridgeville. I am buying a rifle from the DCM, to see how the program works.
The entire purpose of this civilian marksmanship program is to make sure that Americans -- preferably younger, draft-eligible ones -- know which end of a gun goes bang. Whatever else the program may be -- useful instruction that saves lives or a waste of taxpayers' money, character-building recreation or a subsidy to hobby shooters -- it is certainly odd.
How Johnny got his government gun is a story of an enduring American romance -- the romance of the rifle. THERE IS A Catch-22 built into the civilian marksmanship program. In essence, the government won't sell me a high-powered rifle until I have demonstrated that I already know how to use one."
[...]
"The arsenal of democracy produced no more important weapon: Designed at the Springfield Armory in 1936 by Canadian John Garand, almost 7 million M-1 rifles were issued during World War II, and yet more during the Korean War. The M-1 splashed ashore at Normandy and fought through the jungle on Guadalcanal; it was virtually all that stopped the German army at the Battle of the Bulge, and it was what the Marines carried on their bitter retreat from the Chosin Reservoir in North Korea; it was the M-1 that gunned down four students at Kent State in May 1970. This is the rifle that made the American century.
The M-1 was replaced in 1958 by the M-14 and then later by the M-16, but the rifle didn't go away. The obsolete weapons became a strategic reserve in the Cold War, a massive stockpile that could be used to defend America in some unforeseen conflagration. More than 400,000 of the rifles -- the exact number is a national security secret -- have been kept in that warehouse in Anniston, Ala., and are occasionally dispensed to friendly countries.[****See note below] Last year the United States gave 50,000 of them to the Mexican army. When U.S. forces landed in Haiti, they faced Haitian soldiers with M-1s given to them by the American government."
[...]
"The relationship between the NRA and the DCM is something curious. The organizations work "in parallel," Metaksa notes: Both were founded long ago to promote sharpshooting, they share the cost of conducting the national high-powered rifle championship at Camp Perry, and NRA members are heavily represented in the ranks of M-1 buyers and DCM-affiliated club shoots. Both organizations are rooted in the history of America as a gun-owning nation, a Second Amendment culture in which rifle training is considered a threat to our enemies, not to ourselves.
Once upon a time, the relationship between the two groups was more than just cozy. Until a lawsuit in the 1970s, one requirement for purchasing a government M-1 was that you be a member of the NRA. Although those formal ties have been severed, the two organizations are still close enough that Maloney blasts the DCM as "an arm of the NRA" and blames the defeat of her amendment on NRA lobbying.
Metaksa is happy to take the credit. The issue is national defense, she says, and America's preparedness to fight real wars."



*** It's the reimportation of rifles like that that were sold to foreign governments that JFK himself was opposed to when he was a senator. One of his signature pieces of legislation was the banning of re-importation of rifles like this. See The Gun by Henry Bloomgarten.

rogerhucek wrote:Yep, that's one instance from the 1960s. There were many, many more. The biggest clutch of weapons was in California, connected to Nelson Bunker Hunt.

At one point-- I wish I had the source handy on this-- a Minuteman was asked how many guns they had, to which he replied that they were attempting to get ALL OF THEM. All the guns. It sounds insane but the scope of what they were up to is really staggering when you comb through the press accounts and books. I'm not looking to derail this thread but the gun hoarding thing + the federal government's covert complicity in it is major. Here's an article I found  a few years ago:

THE RIFLEMAN

By Patrick Symmes May 7, 1995
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/1995/05/07/the-rifleman/242805a1-8721-440a-ba96-3244976061f6/
[...]
"The rifles are being sold through a little and little-known Army agency called the Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, founded in 1907 after U.S. soldiers had proved unable to shoot straight during the Spanish-American War. Nearly a century later, the DCM has a $2.5 million budget, operates from a small suite of offices near Union Station, organizes the national shooting championship held annually at Camp Perry, Ohio, oversees a network of more than 1,300 affiliated shooting clubs, and gives away 15 million rounds of ammunition every year to those clubs and groups like the Boy Scouts of America.
The symbolic core of the program, however, is the arming of the American public with surplus M-1 rifles. The standard U.S. infantry weapon of the 1940s and 1950s, the M-1 is a high-powered semiautomatic rifle that can be accurate up to a thousand yards. The DCM is allowed -- in fact, required by congressional charter -- to sell 6,000 of them a year to those members of the public who can prove they are U.S. citizens over the age of 18, have not been convicted of any felony and have participated in high-powered rifle "activity." That is why I spent a Sunday standing, sitting and lying in the mud in Bridgeville. I am buying a rifle from the DCM, to see how the program works.
The entire purpose of this civilian marksmanship program is to make sure that Americans -- preferably younger, draft-eligible ones -- know which end of a gun goes bang. Whatever else the program may be -- useful instruction that saves lives or a waste of taxpayers' money, character-building recreation or a subsidy to hobby shooters -- it is certainly odd.
How Johnny got his government gun is a story of an enduring American romance -- the romance of the rifle. THERE IS A Catch-22 built into the civilian marksmanship program. In essence, the government won't sell me a high-powered rifle until I have demonstrated that I already know how to use one."
[...]
"The arsenal of democracy produced no more important weapon: Designed at the Springfield Armory in 1936 by Canadian John Garand, almost 7 million M-1 rifles were issued during World War II, and yet more during the Korean War. The M-1 splashed ashore at Normandy and fought through the jungle on Guadalcanal; it was virtually all that stopped the German army at the Battle of the Bulge, and it was what the Marines carried on their bitter retreat from the Chosin Reservoir in North Korea; it was the M-1 that gunned down four students at Kent State in May 1970. This is the rifle that made the American century.
The M-1 was replaced in 1958 by the M-14 and then later by the M-16, but the rifle didn't go away. The obsolete weapons became a strategic reserve in the Cold War, a massive stockpile that could be used to defend America in some unforeseen conflagration. More than 400,000 of the rifles -- the exact number is a national security secret -- have been kept in that warehouse in Anniston, Ala., and are occasionally dispensed to friendly countries.[****See note below] Last year the United States gave 50,000 of them to the Mexican army. When U.S. forces landed in Haiti, they faced Haitian soldiers with M-1s given to them by the American government."
[...]
"The relationship between the NRA and the DCM is something curious. The organizations work "in parallel," Metaksa notes: Both were founded long ago to promote sharpshooting, they share the cost of conducting the national high-powered rifle championship at Camp Perry, and NRA members are heavily represented in the ranks of M-1 buyers and DCM-affiliated club shoots. Both organizations are rooted in the history of America as a gun-owning nation, a Second Amendment culture in which rifle training is considered a threat to our enemies, not to ourselves.
Once upon a time, the relationship between the two groups was more than just cozy. Until a lawsuit in the 1970s, one requirement for purchasing a government M-1 was that you be a member of the NRA. Although those formal ties have been severed, the two organizations are still close enough that Maloney blasts the DCM as "an arm of the NRA" and blames the defeat of her amendment on NRA lobbying.
Metaksa is happy to take the credit. The issue is national defense, she says, and America's preparedness to fight real wars."

*** It's the reimportation of rifles like that that were sold to foreign governments that JFK himself was opposed to when he was a senator. One of his signature pieces of legislation was the banning of re-importation of rifles like this. See The Gun by Henry Bloomgarten.

I'm not looking to derail this thread 


Far from it Roger, this is great stuff mate. Keep going.

OK. Here's a bit more. Archived posts from a few years ago tying this stuff together a bit:

From Wikipedia site on American Rifleman magazine:

(With an odd bit of a coincidental twist at end.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Rifleman
[...]


Following its move into NRA control, Arms and the Man, which had primarily focused on shooting competition results and discussion of rifles, began to expand into hunting stories, ballistics, handgunning, shotgunning and new shooting products^[7] In June of 1923, the publication changed its name for the fourth and final time to the current title, The American Rifleman. In the aftermath of the name change, the scale of the magazine widened and four influential writers that would help shape the future of both The American Rifleman and shooting sports in general joined: Julian S. Hatcher, Charles Askins, Townsend Whelen and C.B. Lister. Also during this time, Hatcher began his column "The Dope Bag," a write-in question and answer column, which still continues today. By 1928, "The Dope Bag" had grown to 3 staff members, answering over 5000 letters that year. The prominence of rifle shooting, as well as the decision to include all NRA members with free copies of the magazine, helped boost the circulation to over 30,000, making the publication self-sustainable for the first time in its history.^[8]
Despite the harsh economic climate that caused the Great Depression in the 1930's, American Rifleman only continued to gain readers, eventually reaching a circulation of 56,000 and carrying its first full-color advertisement from the Packard Car Company^[9].
During World War II, The American Rifleman Editor Bill Shadel received press credentials from CBS and shipped overseas to cover the European Theater. His duties were taken over by his associate editors, and The American Rifleman carried articles and interviews by Shadel up until the end of the war.^[10] Also during World War II, the physical size of the magazine had to be cut in half due to wartime paper shortages. Due to the poor quality of paper that was used, The American Rifleman began to rely on artwork more heavily than photography. Pulitzer Prize winning cartoonist John T. Berryman was brought in as art director. Following the war, C.B. Lister retained editorship of the magazine.^[11]

The American Rifleman continued to develop in scope following World War II. In 1966, Ashley Halsey Jr. became editor for the magazine, bringing much more focus to the political realm, given the prominence of the bills proposed by senator Thomas Dodd restricting the sales of firearms across state lines.^[12] Halsey Jr. was a former writer at the Saturday Evening Post for 18 years, and became known for his prominent editorials and investigative articles.^[13] In 1971, The American Rifleman published a special centennial issue that was 168 pages long, by far the largest in the magazine's history. The centennial edition also included the first full-sized, full-color photographs of firearms ever printed in the magazine.^[14] Shortly afterward, in 1973, hunting stories, reviews and tips were spun out into a separate publication, American Hunter, which was operating profitably within two years of its premiere. ^[15]

[edit] Trivia

Lee Harvey Oswald killed US President John F. Kennedy with a rifle purchased from a Klein's Sporting Goods ad in the February 1963 issue of American Rifleman.^[16].

Notes

[list=yiv9756566993references]
[*]^ Top 100 Consumer Magazines
[*]^ May 1885, The Rifle
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p. 114.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p. 138.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p. 141.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p.180.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p. 201.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p.223.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p.234.
[*]^ Roberts, Joseph B. The American Rifleman Goes To War (Washington D.C.:1992) p. 135.
[*]^ James E. Serven, ed. Americans and Their Guns, (Harrisburg, PA: 1967), p.248, 251.
[*]^ [1] "Glory of Guns", Time, August 25, 1967.
[*]^ Rodengen, Jeffrey L. NRA: An American Legend, (Fort Lauderdale: 2002), p.142.
[*]^ Rodengen, Jeffrey L. NRA: An American Legend, (Fort Lauderdale: 2002), p.157.
[*]^ Rodengen, Jeffrey L. NRA: An American Legend, (Fort Lauderdale: 2002), p.171
[*]^ Alexander DeConde, Gun Violence in America: The Struggle for Control, Northeastern University Press, 2001, page 170
[/list]
------------------
Also from GoogleBooks result: http://books.google.com/books?id=yXQ9ATM6SfYC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=%22lister%22+%22american+rifleman%22&source=bl&ots=9CfhQMqMyd&sig=dBt_0zkJsvseFWspFSi6TMHOhKs&hl=en&ei=O5U2TOSKHsL-8Aa30qGEDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22lister%22%20%22american%20rifleman%22&f=false



Moral controversies in American politics: cases in social regulatory policy
 By Raymond Tatalovich, Byron W. Daynes

 On pg. 167 we learn that Lister assumed leadership of the NRA in 1921, he was a "promotions manager" and that "due to his efforts, the NRA became associated with two thousand local sportsmen's clubs; it's membership grew tenfold by 1934. The NRA swiftly became the largest and best organized association of firearms users in the nation."

[...]

"Beyond this, the NRA has benefited from  a kind of quasi-governmental status; federal law for decades stipulated that surplus military arms could be sold only to civilians who belonged to the NRA. This led to an ironic occurrence in 1967 when four hundred members of the Detroit Police Department has to join the NRA to obtain surplus army carbines for riot control. [size=13]14 A court order ended this special privilege in 1979" due to a challenge by the National Coalition to ban handguns, the author notes, adding that the federal gov. continues to sponsor NRA activities "by allowing the organization to hold shooting matches at federal military installations at no expense to the NRA, and allowing it the special favor of building target ranges on federal lands. 15"
[/size]

Presenter: Mr. Kenneth H. Bacon, ATSD PA April 27, 1995 1:00 PM EDT

[At today's Regular DOD News Briefing, Mr. Dennis Boxx, DATSD-PA, took the place of Mr. Kenneth H. Bacon, ATSD-PA, following a brief statement by Mr. Bacon]

[...]

[Reporters quiz Boxx on McVeigh, John Doe 2, alarming Special Forces mid-90s Right-wing activity, and then this....]

Q: Can you talk about the Office of Civilian Marksmanship and how a lot of these paramilitary groups seem to be getting on military bases and using military facilities?



A: I would be happy to, but I'd disagree with the premise of your question.

The Civilian Marksmanship program was Congressionally established under Title X, United States Code, which the Army administers. There is no evidence of any relationship, formal or informal, between the Civilian Marksmanship program and any of these self-styled, citizen militia organizations. The Civilian Marksmanship program was established in 1903. The primary emphasis of the program is teaching firearm safety and the sport of competitive marksmanship to young people between the ages of 10 and 20. The program promotes supervised marksmanship training and practice for individuals who already have an interest in marksmanship. The program is focused, entirely, on teaching firearm safety and the sport of competitive marksmanship.

Q: But in the process of continuing training -- not for 10 and 20 year olds, but continuing training -- do you concede that some military activists, or some paramilitary activists, might be getting on bases and learning how to use weapons?



A: No. By policy, the program does not grant club status to citizen militia groups, nor does it support their activities. We have ties to programs like the Boy Scouts and 4-H. That's where the program is intended, that's where it is directed, and that's where it is...

Q: An individual just can't walk into a base...



A: That's correct. Remember that military installations have facilities including rifle ranges -- where active duty, civilian, retirees, dependents are entitled to use some of those facilities. So I cannot stand here and be absolute and say that not anyone ever associated with any of the military organizations as an individual has not been on one of our installations and used it. I simply can't say that.

Q: Do you have any figures of how many people have gone through these programs over the last few years?

A: Actually, I did see some figures. I didn't bring them with me. There is a fact sheet on this program that we'll be happy to provide you through DDI.

Press: Thank you.


[...] [So... who was this inquisitive reporter and where was he getting his information?]

U.S. Department of Defense Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Public Affairs) News Transcript

On the Web: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=3803 Media contact: +1 (703) 697-5131/697-5132 Public contact: http://www.defenselink.mil/faq/comment.html or +1 (703) 428-0711 +1

Re: Lister and the Minute Men

These are old links but I think they still work.


The article "Modern Minute Men Urged As Home Defenders," Ellensburg Daily Record, October  25,1949, details a scheme by C.B. Lister of the National Rifle Association to create an anti-communist home guard to mirror supposed Communist movements and to protect key installations. Lisker had "helped draft the first manual on home guard organizing in World War II":

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3WYKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-EoDAAAAIBAJ&dq=minutemen&pg=5413%2C3275521


Here is the Prescott (Arizona) Evening Courier of Oct 21, 1949 reprinting the same AP story:

[url=http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZK5aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5E8DAAAAIBAJ&dq=lister minute-men&pg=2878%2C6165112]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZK5aAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5E8DAAAAIBAJ&dq=lister%20minute-men&pg=2878%2C6165112[/url]

And here is the Reading Eagle's:

[url=http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ybwhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=s5wFAAAAIBAJ&dq=lister minute-men&pg=5589%2C921389]http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ybwhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=s5wFAAAAIBAJ&dq=lister%20minute-men&pg=5589%2C921389[/url]

Note that the idea was proposed to the board of the NRA and the organization was to made up of civilians. Also note that Lister talks about mimicking the cellular organizational model of the Communists with 1-2 patriotic cells per Communist cell. These Minute Men would focus on industrial installations and most likely never be "called up" for actual battle.

To tie in this thread about the NRA and surplus rifles and Oswald, let me quote the WC vol. 10, p. 220-221, from Adrian Alba's testimony about his garage:


Mr. Liebeler. The address of the garage is 618 Magazine Street?

Mr. Alba. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. It is right next door to the William B. Reily Coffee Co.?

Mr. Alba. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever become acquainted with or observe in your garage
Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Alba. Through conversations and Outdoor Life magazines in the office —
I have a coffee pot there, and a coffee table, and some chairs, and a magazine
rack, where he frequented the magazines quite often and drank coffee. And I
have a coke machine there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did this fellow, did you tell us what his name was?

Mr. Alba. All I knew him was as “Lee.”

Mr. Liebeler. Just Lee?

Mr. Alba. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you are a gun enthusiast, is that correct?

Mr. Alba. That is correct.

Mr. Liebeler. And that you kept in your office in the garage various magazines
relating to outdoor life and guns?

Mr. Alba. Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever discuss guns with you?

Mr. Alba. Yes, he did.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us what he said, and what you said on the subject?

Mr. Alba. He pursued the issue of ordering guns, and how many guns had I
ever ordered, and how long did it take to get them, and where had I ordered guns
from--

Mr. Liebeler. Go ahead. What did you tell him? Just tell us the conversation that you had with him.

Mr. Alba. I told him that I had a gun on order at the present time, a U.S.
.30-caliber carbine, and he asked had I received the gun, on several occasions,
after that. I told him no, that I hadn’t. And he asked me would I consider
selling him the gun if and when I got it. I told him no.


Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything peculiar about this particular rifle that
made Oswald want it? Or why did he want you to sell this rifle? Do you
know?

Mr. Alba. He told me he had a couple of guns, and he would like to have
the carbine. He was familiar with the carbine from the service, I believe.

Mr. Liebeler. And this was the regular M-l carbine?

Mr. Alba. Regular M-l carbine, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. From whom had you ordered that carbine? Do you recall?

Mr. Alba. Through the National Rifle Association.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you what other kind of rifle or weapons
that he had?

Mr. Alba. No ; he didn’t, He did make a remark that he had — I think he said
he had several rifles and several pistols, but he did not go into the nature of the
arms, or how 7 much, or what they were.

----

It seems to me that Oswald was intent on learning more about Alba and his ordering of rifles-- specifically one via the NRA, which ties into what I posted earlier about the NRA's programs to encourage gun proliferation, the programs that the Minutemen were exploiting at the time. A number of researchers have stated that Adrian Alba was a member of the Minutemen, but I have yet to find a good source for this assertion. If true, it would be consistent with LHO's investigating right-wing individuals in New Orleans and Dallas; specifically, it seems, ones on record as threatening the president. Alba's garage was used by a number of government agencies including the Secret Service; perhaps Alba's proximity to the Secret Service was troublesome to their PRS or another agency?

I do think it's clear from that little snippet of Alba's testimony that Oswald seemed to be very purposeful about the questions he was asking, trying to investigate Alba and get him to go on a record as ordering a rifle. I think it's a tiny window into what LHO perhaps thought he was doing in the months before the assassination, whether it was wild goose chase or not.