the assassination in dot points

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 12:12 pm

JFK killed as a result of a plot by internal enemies, including some in his own party

Oswald was a designated patsy - there were others.

Oswald's background is a reliable path to some involved

There were at least three points along the motorcade route where the assassination may have occurred. First on Main St by pistol, second in Dealey Plaza and third at the luncheon by poison. Main St was aborted for good reason and the luncheon plan was not needed

Had Main St gone ahead, the pistol ordered by Hidell would have been the alleged murder weapon, Hidell would have been linked to a different patsy and the BYP would look different, if they bothered making them at all in this scenario)

Oswald was on the steps during the shooting

The police did nothing out of character in framing him. Standard techniques, amateurish and done on the fly. Other agencies joined in on the frame for their own reasons, as did the new government

Oswald was not killed out of fear he would "talk". He knew nothing. He was killed out of fear of a trial in front of a far less gullible European press.

Oswald had a relationship with potentially all three of ONI, CIA and FBI. Possibly Red Cross and YMCA, too as cut-outs. How witting he was in these relationships is not clear

Coercive persuasion techniques were used on Ruby to secure his services as "hitman". Drugs, sleep deprivation, propaganda, threats, inducements, an alibi and a typical cop-supplied (Reid) excuse to make it somehow seem like a heroic act

Ruby was a police groupie. He wanted to be a detective. He thought he could solve the case and get out of his assignment. It is bullshit that he carried out the hit for the "mob". Though it was mob-related unionists that he turned to next to help extricate him - and when that failed, he turned to phoning through threats to try and get security on Oswald tightened. He did not want to shoot someone he thought looked like Paul Newman for chrissakes

The Odio incident was not related to the assassination. It was most likely an operation aimed at JURE - hated by the CIA and FBI and by the other anti-Castro forces

Mexico City was unrelated to the assassination. Oswald's name and background were used in a separate operation regarding locating double-agents - or creating them. Again, their was a scramble to backstop Oswald's travel and hotel accommodation post-assassination. It could not be admitted he was not there as that would expose the op that did take place. If MC had been all about the assassination from the get-go, they would have used someone with a passing resemblance and similar language capacity. They did not do that because it was not needed for the operation in place. His name and background were all they needed.

There was a lot of backstopping to provide post hoc evidence supporting various claims beyond just Mexico City

The era in which the assassination occurred is endlessly fascinating, layered, misrepresented, and occasionally out-of-kilter (in very particular ways in some instances). But as with MC and Odio, not everything that looks suspicious, was connected to a massive plot re JFK

Roy Truly was the inside man at the TSBD. Oswald was number one patsy, but if he had to be ruled out, there was no shortage of other potential patsies in that building

If Dealey Plaza was aborted, JFK's steak was going to be poisoned by someone in the Secret Service. This would be blamed on the person serving the meal - and that would have been Mrs. Joe Molina or one of her church friends. Joe Molina would then have been tied to the plot To my mind, it is suspicious that the Secret Service made arrangements to protect JFK from poisoning by having one of their own select the steak for him, on the face of it, leaving the server as the only possible poisoner

The only other security measures taken by the Secret Service and DPD involved ensuring that protesters and those carrying signs would be watched closely. Why? Because they did not want to be embarrassed by another incident similar to when Stevenson was hit on the head with a sign. In short, the security on the route was geared toward protecting themselves from an embarrassing scene with protesters, and not on protecting JFK from an assassins bullet

We know a lot more about the psychology of witnesses now. In fact, I would guess little of any study was done back then on the issue. As a general rule, witnesses are unreliable and the further in time you get from the event, the less reliable they become. But in recognizing that as only a general rule, you have to have ways to test each and every witness to determine those most accurate. Then you have the ones who come forward after the event - sometimes well after. They have to be tested even more as to why they did not come forward straight away. Then you have false witnesses and false sightings resulting from everything from a desire to help, psychological need to be part of history, other psychological or psychiatric issues, and honest mistaken identification

The witnesses, faulty investigations, dodgy science, compliant media, recalcitrant agencies and governments, protection of other operations and informants, and the growth and popularity of "conspiracy theories" have all contributed to what we call here a "dog's breakfast" of a case (it's all over the place and in a big mess)

Sat 05 Jun 2021, 8:21 pm

Excellent Greg. Gets right to the point.

Sun 06 Jun 2021, 1:34 pm

Thanks Greg,

It is incredible to think that simple CYA and ego all played its part too. In aiding the absolute mind boggling mess that's been left behind in the way of so called evidence. You've pretty much nailed everything right there mate.

All the other stuff is nonsense IMO. Clutter. I do believe you're right with the way things panned out with regards to how Oswald became a target for the Dallas Cops. Somebody knew how the Dallas cops operated they knew what to lay down in front of their noses and the rest would take care of itself- it was way too easy. The others up State hell they went along with it all - suited them to a tee. They even pitched in with the cover-up, and some good ol' CYA.

A lay down MC rifle found in at the TSBD on that Friday arvo, a treasure trove of incriminating stuff from the Paines on that first search on the Friday, and still more throw down shit from the alleged Beckley rooming house that day too. Fritz and his boys would've known they were being taken - but they did what they do best.

But the best was yet to come - the BYP's the most incriminating material of all miraculously appears on Saturday after the second alleged search by the cops of the Paines house. Just missed those on that first sweep - dog gone it - same with that pesky Imperial Reflex camera.

There's not one ounce of my fiber that believes that those keystone cops didn't smell a rat when they saw those BYP's and how incriminating they were to Oswald and how they came about them. Way too easy - like no one asked the question? I mean really?

Great list mate.

Sun 06 Jun 2021, 6:45 pm

Also could add that the Tippit murder likely had nothing to with JFK.

Tue 08 Jun 2021, 11:34 pm

I've never heard of the "poison his steak at the Trade Mart" theory. It seems a little too convoluted and low-rent. They took the time at the depository to really make a statement there - the thrown down shells, the backyard photos, which were obviously overdone with the newspaper, the rifle and the pistol. They scream DEPRAVED MADMAN ASSASSIN!!!"

And yet, if all else fails, a muddied "someone poisoned his food during the luncheon" with no clear-cut assassin? Why not just poison him at the breakfast at Fort Worth and be done with it?

Seems way too far-fetched for me.

The pistol on Main Street seems odd too. Everything points to Dealey as the #1 site - who's to say they didn't practice in some undisclosed location set up like Dealey? If you believe, like I do, that there were shots from the front, then it's obvious this was the #1 site well thought out and planned.

Wed 09 Jun 2021, 12:42 am

Vinny wrote:Also could add that the Tippit murder likely had nothing to with JFK.

Thanks Vinny. Yes, most definitely. Had in mind a few others but by the time I got around to doing it, I'd forgotten some.

Wed 09 Jun 2021, 1:50 am

I've never heard of the "poison his steak at the Trade Mart" theory.

That seems to be a common refrain in response to any new ideas I introduce, "Can't be true because I haven't heard about it before."

It seems a little too convoluted and low-rent. They took the time at the depository to really make a statement there - the thrown down shells, the backyard photos, which were obviously overdone with the newspaper, the rifle and the pistol. They scream DEPRAVED MADMAN ASSASSIN!!!"

Obviously didn't scream that to Wade who told the media that the assassin was a cool calculating pro who must have planned the hit over a number of months.

You are making the mistake of thinking a lot of he framing happened prior to the assassination - but that is just not the case. The Hidell ID, the BYP never existed until Saturday and any meticulous planning would not result in confusion over the brand of rifle used. Amateur hour,

And yet, if all else fails, a muddied "someone poisoned his food during the luncheon" with no clear-cut assassin? Why not just poison him at the breakfast at Fort Worth and be done with it?

Kennedy was not leaving Dallas alive and poisoning is historically the go-to method of disposing of leaders and kings. Not sure why you say there was no clear-cut assassin. Since the Secret Service selected his steak at random, suspicion has to fall upon the server.

You may not be aware but the police made an early morning raid on Molina's house and tore it apart - yet the only thing they took was his wife's church list of volunteers for serving at the luncheon. Had this plan gone ahead, The alleged subversive Molina and his wife would have been arrested.

It looks to me like the cops were tipped off about that list and that was what they were specifically looking for. I think this was heading in the direction of arresting Molina and his wife and accusing them of plotting to poison Kennedy if he got past their commie accomplice Oswald.

Fear of WWIII saved Molina.

As for why they did not poison him at the Fort Worth breakfast -- security on the rest of the tour was actually in place. They even rounded up potential threats in Fort Worth.

Seems way too far-fetched for me.

Noted.

The pistol on Main Street seems odd too. Everything points to Dealey as the #1 site - who's to say they didn't practice in some undisclosed location set up like Dealey? If you believe, like I do, that there were shots from the front, then it's obvious this was the #1 site well thought out and planned..

Everything that you're aware of and even then, only if you misconstrue it.

What everything points to is no one caring about where the TSBD patsy was. Maybe partly because they would control the narrative, and if need be, they had alternative patsies in that building. But another reason may be that they were not expecting Kennedy to make it that far.

The pistol on Main Street seems odd too. Everything points to Dealey as the #1 site

[url=https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11503#relPageId=107&search=oxnard_and exchange]The Oxnard caller said Kennedy would be killed at 12:10[/url]. It was amended to 12:30 when that time passed without incident. The caller was not psychic. She had to have been in radio contact in real time, with someone in Dallas providing updates on the progress of the motorcade.

Walt Brown's timeline has 12:10 as the time Det, Arnett chased off a teen brandishing a starter's pistol. Starter's pistols have been used as diversions in other cases. You can read about the incident in Arnett's testimony. The use of a starter's pistol as a diversion, indicates a pistol would have been the assassin's weapon here.

- who's to say they didn't practice in some undisclosed location set up like Dealey? If you believe, like I do, that there were shots from the front, then it's obvious this was the #1 site well thought out and planned.

And whose to say they didn't have midget Billy Lovelady's up their sleeves, or that Tippit wasn't programmed by Soviet agents to kill Oswald .or that Kennedy was not about to reveal the "alien presence? Your speculation here is no better supported by the facts.

The plan was indeed well thought out and executed. But that did not include framing Oswald, Necessity meant he had to be framed after - not before - and that part of it was sloppy - hence the need to kill the patsy. The evidence was never going to get past nosy European press who were far better acquainted with "regime change" and hence were far more cynical.

Wed 09 Jun 2021, 11:05 pm

Replying to Greg's post above. Whew! Where to begin!

The first plot with the gun on Main. I read the Arnett testimony.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arnett.htm

So you're taking this testimony - with kids running around with handcuffs, a knife and blank pistol - as "evidence" to prove that there was another plan to shoot JFK and these kids with a starter gun, handcuffs and a knife was going to be the diversion for the shooters on Main? Wow, talk about a leap of faith. It makes no sense. There were times when the car was going 20-30 MPH down Main and in other parts of the parade.

The prescient phone call. I read that document. Greg, do you not realize there are literally thousands of crackpots out there? The clear giveaway of this being nothing more than a crackpot call is the "thermostat..." part. I mean, come on! Again, you're taking something documented and turning it into "evidence" of someone making this call to reveal the upcoming assassination. I mean, wow! I suggest you watch real detective shows, not the 52 minute solved in an hour scripted ones, but real ones. In them, and when they open tip lines up, they get literally hundreds if not thousands of calls from crackpots trying to solve the case. The same here - nothing but a crackpot call.

Dealey Plaza was it, Greg. It was where it was all going to go down. Period. And your speculation that Oswald was a last-minute patsy is off, too. You write a lot about Ruth Paine and yes, I agree with you. This woman somehow played a role in steering the cops toward Oswald so he could take the blame. But you seem to forget that it was this very woman, Paine, who got Oswald the job almost a month before the murder. And she didn't do it out of the goodness of her heart. That, for me, is not a last-minute plan of Oswald taking the fall for the murder.

-------

- who's to say they didn't practice in some undisclosed location set up like Dealey? If you believe, like I do, that there were shots from the front, then it's obvious this was the #1 site well thought out and planned.

And whose to say they didn't have midget Billy Lovelady's up their sleeves, or that Tippit wasn't programmed by Soviet agents to kill Oswald .or that Kennedy was not about to reveal the "alien presence? Your speculation here is no better supported by the facts.

-------

You're taking what I'm saying out of context. Yes, it's speculation that the planners did dry runs in an undisclosed location. I'm not going to quibble with you on speculation because, believe me, we ALL speculate on this case. Even real detectives speculate when trying to solve a case. Your Oswald had Asperger's is pure speculation and nothing more. What I AM trying to say here, though, is this was a well planned event but even the planners may have wanted to practice somewhere before the actual event.

Thu 10 Jun 2021, 1:04 am

The first plot with the gun on Main. I read the Arnett testimony.

https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arnett.htm

So you're taking this testimony - with kids running around with handcuffs, a knife and blank pistol - as "evidence" to prove that there was another plan to shoot JFK and these kids with a starter gun, handcuffs and a knife was going to be the diversion for the shooters on Main? Wow, talk about a leap of faith. It makes no sense. There were times when the car was going 20-30 MPH down Main and in other parts of the parade.

They were teens - not little kids and they were in some type of military style uniform. ROTC? CAP? Who knows?

And I have not based it solely on this incident, but the fact that this incident happened at precisely the time initially indicated in the Oxnard call as the time the assassination would occur: 12:10 Dallas time.

Also are you acquainted at all with the 1979 arrest of Raymond Lee Harvey?

Raymond Lee Harvey was an Ohio-born unemployed American drifter. He was arrested by the Secret Service after being found carrying a starter pistol with blank rounds, ten minutes before President Jimmy Carter was to give a speech at the Civic Center Mall in Los Angeles on May 5, 1979.

Although he had a history of mental illness,[1] police investigated his claims that he was part of a four-man operation to assassinate the president. He claimed that he had been approached by three Latino men staying at the Alan Hotel who gave him the starter pistol, and asked him to shoot it into the ground to create a diversion, so they could then shoot the president from their hotel room during the distraction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Lee_Harvey

The prescient phone call. I read that document. Greg, do you not realize there are literally thousands of crackpots out there? The clear giveaway of this being nothing more than a crackpot call is the "thermostat..." part. I mean, come on! Again, you're taking something documented and turning it into "evidence" of someone making this call to reveal the upcoming assassination. I mean, wow! I suggest you watch real detective shows, not the 52 minute solved in an hour scripted ones, but real ones. In them, and when they open tip lines up, they get literally hundreds if not thousands of calls from crackpots trying to solve the case. The same here - nothing but a crackpot call.

Prescience | Definition of Prescience by Merriam-Websterhttps://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › presci...
Prescience definition is - foreknowledge of events:.

So what you are saying is that she had foreknowledge of what was going to happen -- but we should ignore her because you think (wrongly through your own ignorance) that she was a crackpot. You also wrongly assume she was trying to inform authorities of what was going to happen and conflate that with people phoning in tips AFTER a murder.

On what planet do you ignore someone whose foreknowledge was absolutely correct?

I try and keep my assumptions to a minimum.

What do we know about this call?

The operators said she was talking softly and rhythmically

She was dialing numbers and and repeating lists of courts in between predictions about the assassination"

She was not connected to anyone, but did tell the operators that she was "using the phone".

She had the phone receiver placed on a table so that she was hands-free.

Her first prediction for the assassination was made at 12:08 and the time she gave was 12:10.She knew almost immediately that nothing had happened at that time, and updated the prediction to 12:30 and that was right on the money.

Having done rudimentary study of the occult, I am aware that groups like AMORC believe they can remotely affect events across the globe. I contacted someone involved in the occult and gave some of these details without saying it was JFK related. He confirmed that the use of props such as phones together with the chanting sounded like an attempt at remotely trying to influence something.

Do I think she caused the assassination with the power of her mind? Of course not. I think she was hands-free because she was in radio contact with someone in Dallas who was giving her updates. She was using her hocus pocus to try and ensure success for the operation. This was the 1960s Michael. Lots of people brought into the occult, which by the late 1960s spawned the New Age Movement and the Hippies. The vast majority were NOT crackpots. It is just a cheap McAdams ploy to throw that label around.

So the timeline looks like this:

12:08: Unknown female predicts JFK will be killed at 12:10

12:10: uniformed teenagers are reported as playing around with what was said to be a starter's pistol on Main St. The one with the pistol runs off when police approach.

12:13 Same woman seems to know that the assassination is not carried out at 12:10 and updates it to 13:30

12:30 JFK is assassinated in Dealey Plaza

Dealey Plaza was it, Greg. It was where it was all going to go down. Period. And your speculation that Oswald was a last-minute patsy is off, too. You write a lot about Ruth Paine and yes, I agree with you. This woman somehow played a role in steering the cops toward Oswald so he could take the blame. But you seem to forget that it was this very woman, Paine, who got Oswald the job almost a month before the murder. And she didn't do it out of the goodness of her heart. That, for me, is not a last-minute plan of Oswald taking the fall for the murder.

I never said Oswald was a last minute patsy. I said he was one of a number of potential patsies on the route. He would be used if needed - and that is hw it played out. The cops inadvertently caused the Main St option to be aborted.

The assassination plot began in June and started to get serious in Sept/Oct - which was when Oswald was selected as a patsy.

What I am saying to you is that because there were a number of possible patsies, there was no point in planning to frame them ahead of time. No one in their right mind could possibly claim this was a professional, well executed and well planned frame of LHO. It was absolutely none of those. It was a mess. A big mess.

Different rifles identified as found. Evidence not photographed in situ. No chain of possession. Wrong shells identified at Tippit site. No mention of finding any Hidell ID by arresting officers. Wrong description going out, His name not going out. On and on.... just a mess.

But no one gave a shit, That was how the cops operated Find someone who fits your suspect profile and start making the case with real or manufactured evidence.

You're taking what I'm saying out of context. Yes, it's speculation that the planners did dry runs in an undisclosed location. I'm not going to quibble with you on speculation because, believe me, we ALL speculate on this case. Even real detectives speculate when trying to solve a case. Your Oswald had Asperger's is pure speculation and nothing more. What I AM trying to say here, though, is this was a well planned event but even the planners may have wanted to practice somewhere before the actual event.

If you don't think you need evidence, you can speculate and invent any scenario. Mine may be wrong - but it does make sense of the evidence as noted. I have not just pulled it out of whole cloth, as you seem to want to suggest.

My "Oswald had Aspergers" is not evidence-free speculation. Michael. He was diagnosed at Youth House as having a schizoid personality disorder. Aspergers was not recognized in the US at the time. But he ticks every single box for a high functioning spectrum disorder - which is very similar to the schizoid personality. Do you not understand the difference between that type of evidence-based speculation and your evidence-free speculation about dry runs? I mean, I know that happened in Executive Action but that was pure fiction.

You also tried to suggest before that poisoning was convoluted and silly.

I should have added in reply that you need to tell the CIA that.

Exploding sea shells.
Poison
Contaminated diving gear

Those were components of just some of the assassination plots the CIA had for Castro.

Thu 10 Jun 2021, 4:42 am

I've never heard of the "poison his steak at the Trade Mart" theory. It seems a little too convoluted and low-rent. They took the time at the depository to really make a statement there…

Main Street by pistol or luncheon by poison seems a little too convoluted and low rent?

Of the three options posited by Greg, the Dealey Plaza/TSBD option—the one that "worked"—was the shakiest and flimsiest in my view. Any "time taken to really make a statement" was after the fact following caveman-like brute force.

All of the best, most reliable evidence (interrogation records, affidavits, and news reports, etc.) place Oswald down in front with his boss and co-workers as the motorcade passed by the TSBD.

Want to see something convoluted? Try this:

After the shots, a police officer enters the TSBD and encounters Oswald near the entrance or just inside the entrance. Oswald is vouched for.
The cop runs up to the roof with Truly, ostensibly via the rear stairs, and encounters a man on the third or fourth floor. This dude is vouched for, and on up they go.
This cop, Baker, fills out a statement that evening in the general presence of Oswald who had earlier gotten nabbed at the Texas theater. Baker mentions nothing about a second floor lunchroom encounter nor Oswald as the man he saw.
When it became clear that Oswald's airtight alibi had to be deflated, he was moved to the second floor in a series of "refinements" by Truly (Oswald's "damn the bad luck" elimination at police headquarters made these story "refinements" much easier).
Refinement #1: Oswald is seen sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom (2FLR). *
Refinement #2: Oswald is brought to his feet leaning at a counter in the 2FLR.
Refinement #3: Oswald is standing by the Coke machine in the 2FLR sipping a Coke.
Refinement #4: Oswald is seen (a "glimpse") to be walking into the 2FLR toward the Coke machine.

Refinement #4: was the story presented to the Warren Commission.

Then six months later when Baker was asked to clarify whether or not there were any additional people in the 2FLR, he never mentions catching a "glimpse" of him, something he did multiple times in his WC testimony, nor does he even mention Oswald by name. No, he just sees a man standing in the lunchroom. Pretty much what he said back in November 1963.

Talk about convoluted! Low rent? Hell, this is skid row!

Luncheon poisoning is much more simple and straightforward than this hideous monstrosity.

* The Secret Service did a video in late 1963 where they try to show how a man could have left the sixth floor "snipers nest," ditched the rifle, and then make it down four flights of stairs and into the 2FLR and sit down at a table in 90 seconds. But in doing so, they had the actor descend the four flights of stairs in a mere six seconds!

Sat 12 Jun 2021, 6:00 pm

Very interesting, Greg. I was particularly impressed by the absence of doppelgangers, presidential body-snatchers, and little green men.

Focussing on Ruby's police contacts rather than his mob associations is something I wouldn't have thought of myself, but it makes sense.

Another thing I hadn't thought of myself but which looks convincing is the Secret Service being more concerned with protestors than with potential assassins.

I'm coming over to your idea that the Odio incident was unrelated to the assassination. Timing-wise, though, it still serves as a handy way to cast doubt on the story of Oswald travelling alone to Mexico.

Ditto the Tippit murder, as Vinny points out. In the absence of strong evidence that it was done by either Oswald or an Oswald impostor, the simplest explanation is that it was an unrelated crime that was gratefully seized on after the event.

It's a long time since I studied the back yard photos in any detail. Given that the late Mr White was keen to claim them as fakes, I've worked on the assumption that they should be treated as genuine until any undeniable evidence of fakery comes along. If it really is Oswald who's holding the two ideologically opposed newspapers, that's enough to show that his activities in New Orleans weren't sincere, whether he chose the newspapers himself to support his false persona or whether someone chose them for him.

Sat 12 Jun 2021, 9:01 pm

Very interesting, Greg. I was particularly impressed by the absence of doppelgangers, presidential body-snatchers, and little green men.

Was telling Vinny I forgot some things I meant to include. I think you nailed all three. Very Happy

Focussing on Ruby's police contacts rather than his mob associations is something I wouldn't have thought of myself, but it makes sense.

Having arrived at the conclusion that Oswald was not only innocent, but knew nothing of the plot, the actual plotters had nothing to fear from him - depending on who the plotters were because he could still reveal details of whatever ops he wittingly participated in and also the MC op could be exposed by him proving it was not him down there, Not only expose that op - but expose how they tried to add to the frame by manufacturing evidence and using false witnesses.

But the most urgent need to kill him would come from Fritz being exposed as a criminal, not a hero. If this was just a local crime, covered by local media - no problem It goes to court and Oswald fries.

At the time, the JBS was trying to lose its anti-Semitic tag in parallel with the DLCU trying to lose its "Lefty" tag by defending Walker and holding meetings where it reinforced that the JBS was every bit as entitled to protection as any other group. And you had the ever helpful Mike Paine mingling with all stops on the political spectrum - allegedly in a quest to unite them or some such bullshit.

Then in this social shifting of goal posts, you have Jack Ruby - proudly Jewish on the one hand and an absolute police groupie on the other. He had a brother-in-arms there, even if he didn't know it. WO Banskston was given a police siren and radio and often rode with cops out on call-outs. That's the sort of status with cops that Ruby would have loved.

Edit to add: Jack did obtain his murder weapon frrom Ray Brantley in 1960. Ruby had Detective Joe Cody and a boxer with him. Cody had been good friends with Ruby since 1951. He left the force around then and joined the army, working in Army Intelligence before rejoining the police as a detective with Special Services narco division. I believe the Colt Cobra was favored by detectives...

Interestingly, in 1961, Ruby asked Brantley to clean up a rusty old blue steel 38 cal Smith & Wesson. I cannot see it among lists of Ruby possessions and anyway, he already had his Colt. Did this perhaps become a police throw-down?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=535

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=149273#relPageId=41

And Banskton's police radio is a wild card in all of this...

Coercive persuasion:
Brainwashing someone or using coercive persuasion isn’t simple. You have to use different techniques to get someone to actually change their belief system, thought process, and the way they feel and act. These coercive persuasion techniques can be divided into four types: social environmental, emotional, cognitive, and those that induce dissociative states.
https://exploringyourmind.com/brainwashing-coercive-persuasion-techniques/

I have little doubt that Olsen worked on him over that late night-early morning session. and supplied amphetamine through Bruce Carlin who was dealing in in all sorts of shit. The techniques were not totally successful as shown by Ruby's three-pronged attempt to get himself out of the job. They simply did not have enough time to completely fuck him up - but that effort continued behind bars.

I'm coming over to your idea that the Odio incident was unrelated to the assassination. Timing-wise, though, it still serves as a handy way to cast doubt on the story of Oswald travelling alone to Mexico.

It won't have to serve that role for much longer. I'm sitting on stuff that will blow MC apart. Half of it is being worked on with a member here and that will be published in the Dealey Plaza UK magazine. The other part, I am still pondering. If I just post it on the web or on a forum, it is just preaching to the "community"- and inviting theft - bad enough in itself but worse when it is misused to prop up whatever snake oil the author is peddling.

We just need an ounce of luck. Recently, in association with others, I came within an inch of getting this and other material on TV here. It was eventually knocked on the head because the makers of the show decided they have insufficient resources and too small a production team - but they were interested enough to do a taped interview with me.to take to the production meeting. The show reinvestigates old cases and current issues. A suburban cold case murder at one end and Putin's poison squad at the other.

Another thing I hadn't thought of myself but which looks convincing is the Secret Service being more concerned with protestors than with potential assassins.

It jumps out when you read all the preparation reports. Constant references to protesters carrying signs and what would be done to lesson the risk of another Stevenson incident.

But maybe they knew those signs actually shot poison darts.. Lifton should investigate.

Ditto the Tippit murder, as Vinny points out. In the absence of strong evidence that it was done by either Oswald or an Oswald impostor, the simplest explanation is that it was an unrelated crime that was gratefully seized on after the event.

Also in the absence of any reasonable explanation for killng Tippit as part of the overall JFK plot and in the absence of any sign whatsoever that it was planned. Auto shells being called in but not an automatic used to plant on Oswald? That is the Keystone Kops, not regime changers.

WO Bankston and Floyd Hamilton are two among many who have flown under the radar...

It's a long time since I studied the back yard photos in any detail. Given that the late Mr White was keen to claim them as fakes, I've worked on the assumption that they should be treated as genuine until any undeniable evidence of fakery comes along. If it really is Oswald who's holding the two ideologically opposed newspapers, that's enough to show that his activities in New Orleans weren't sincere, whether he chose the newspapers himself to support his false persona or whether someone chose them for him.

LOL Yes, that is a tempting way to look at various things.

But as Jack was fond of saying.... "I only have to be right about one thing and I win the Kewpie Doll!"

Well, Jack's one thing was this -- even if his analysis was wrong and looking at the wrong areas. Let's not nit-pick!

And again... with that ounce of luck, your proof will arrive in our life time. The person involved is relentless in pursuit. I get to sit back and watch in awe.

There are some who refuse to die wondering... members here for sure...

Sun 13 Jun 2021, 11:53 am

The Hidell ID, the BYP never existed until Saturday and any meticulous planning would not result in confusion over the brand of rifle used. Amateur hour.

I should clarify the above. They never existed until Saturday in the form they now appear, depending on which, if either, the following options apply:.

My current thinking fwiw is that

the photos were either taken in late March/early April by the Paines and/or some White Russians as an Oswald piss-take - thus the note on the back of the DeM photo - "Hunter of Fascists hahaha". In this scenario, someone was used to be Oswald and they then stuck Oswald's head on. Oswald knew nothing about it. It was a big laugh at his expense. I think the rifle that was ordered was the one used. That is, the 36 inch model. Whatever happens to it, it was no longer available by the time of the assassination and they have to use a 40 inch model. This all implicates Klein's in a large deception. But it was for the government - a government that was trying to severely limit their business model, so you can bet your bottom dollar they were going to cooperate.

Another alternative put to me recently is that they were taken in late September/early October - the only other time of the year they could be taken because of the foliage. From memory, the building had been broken into during this period. Oswald of course, was out of town at the time... in this scenario, it would be a case of being part of the frame because this is the time period he was picked out. Thinking about, this is a live option.

As for the Hidell ID, as I have said elsewhere, I think it was made by Oswald as practice using the complex equipment at Jaggers. See testimony of his employers about the need to learn using the equipment.

But he had his own name on it. Someone changed it to Hidell post-arrest. And he sure as hell wasn't carrying it around

Tue 15 Jun 2021, 5:38 pm

Greg wrote:I'm sitting on stuff that will blow MC apart. Half of it is being worked on with a member here and that will be published in the Dealey Plaza UK magazine. The other part, I am still pondering.

That's very interesting. It would be great to have all your ideas together in one place. Volume 3, perhaps?

Recently, in association with others, I came within an inch of getting this and other material on TV here.

Tremendous! Not only for nearly succeeding this time, but also that genuine criticism doesn't get automatically dismissed by TV producers.

In this scenario, someone was used to be Oswald and they then stuck Oswald's head on. Oswald knew nothing about it. It was a big laugh at his expense. I think the rifle that was ordered was the one used. That is, the 36 inch model. Whatever happens to it, it was no longer available by the time of the assassination and they have to use a 40 inch model.

If the rifle in the photos can be shown to be the 36" model, that would be a real breakthrough. The evidence for this would need to be absolutely solid, though, to overcome the Jack White factor.

As for the Hidell ID, as I have said elsewhere, I think it was made by Oswald as practice using the complex equipment at Jaggers.

Yes, that makes sense.

Thu 17 Jun 2021, 5:00 pm

greg_parker wrote:

Had Main St gone ahead, the pistol ordered by Hidell would have been the alleged murder weapon, Hidell would have been linked to a different patsy and the BYP would look different, if they bothered making them at all in this scenario)

The only other security measures taken by the Secret Service and DPD involved ensuring that protesters and those carrying signs would be watched closely. Why? Because they did not want to be embarrassed by another incident similar to when Stevenson was hit on the head with a sign. In short, the security on the route was geared toward protecting themselves from an embarrassing scene with protesters, and not on protecting JFK from an assassins bullet

Hey Greg, your post gave me a lot of food for thought.

Maybe the two points above are linked. Dallas was such a clearly rightwing city, synonymous with conservativism, that had been in the news for the assault on Adlai Stevenson. If Oswald was only one possible fall-guy, chosen at the last minute, might his alternates have been more in keeping with the majority of would-be patsies: far-right, as Thomas Arthur Vallee or Richard Pavlick and most others were?

Imagine another scenario happening on 11/22/63: some conservative (maybe a Minuteman-type or disaffected Cuban exile) shoots JFK in Dallas. What a comparatively simple narrative that would have been.

Motive? Political bias and hatred. Maybe anti-Catholicism. Maybe mental illness. Just another lone nut-- a term that fits right-wingers then and now like a glove-- or it's modern day far-right equivalent, "lone wolf." "Lone nut" never really quite fit lefties. The Left is often popularly understood to be the political polarity of communism, of the suppression of individuality, of collective action. Think of how well the term "lone nut" would have fit a rightwing patsy, though. He wouldn't have to be so nutty that his motives defy explanation.

Method? Rifle. Just like the ones being advertised in men's magazines for dirt cheap.

Location? Dallas, the City of Hate.

It would have been a truly open and shut case. Or at least it would have made some sense. And best of all, having a rightwing fanatic patsy would never, ever potentially risk WWIII, unlike the selection of a former Russian defector.

But that's not what happened. Or, rather, that's kinda sorta what happened-ish, only with the Marxist Oswald confoundingly slotted in a role that would have been perfect for a patsy of the opposite political tendencies, a square peg jammed in a round hole and left there, dead within two days. It still took place in Dallas. It still followed in the wake of the Adlai Stevenson attack. It was predicted by an obscure Southern racist, Milteer, whose only skill seems to have been networking. WTF?

To me it seems like the template for a rightwing attempt on Kennedy's life was allowed to go through but with an impossibly unlikely patsy chosen for a starring role.

The juxtaposition of diametrically opposed left and right elements, with no discernible motive on LHO's part, and the possibility of WWIII erupting and destroying the entire world from this mess leads me to another one of your points:

Greg Parker wrote:The witnesses, faulty investigations, dodgy science, compliant media, recalcitrant agencies and governments, protection of other operations and informants, and the growth and popularity of "conspiracy theories" have all contributed to what we call here a "dog's breakfast" of a case (it's all over the place and in a big mess)

I heartily agree. The reason anyone is still arguing over this case is because rather than being a perfectly-executed, marvelously coherent conspiracy by very few, it was a total, utter clusterf*ck before it even started. Too many cooks were involved. A horse was assembled by committee. The official narrative makes no sense; it never did, and one need not be even vaguely intelligent or rooted in reality to poke holes in it.

It's not a dastardly clever riddle to be solved; it's a mess. And it's only gotten messier with decades of speculation.

As for whether this is all part of some huge plan, I think of what that Coca-Cola executive said about their failed attempt to make New Coke, ""We are not that dumb, and we are not that smart."

I applaud your efforts to trim off some of the limbs of speculation from this overgrown shrub. I'm really interested to hear what you've learned about Ruby.

What do you make of E. Walker and the shooting? Do you think Milteer knew what was up or was he just guessing? Do you think the Secret Service was at all complicit in the assassination?

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 11:15 am

Rogerhucek,

Interesting points you've made.

The juxtaposition of diametrically opposed left and right elements, with no discernible motive on LHO's part, and the possibility of WWIII erupting and destroying the entire world from this mess leads me to another one of your points:

There is some evidence early on in the first hours of Lee Oswald having been held in Police custody that some of the authorities were known to have leaked misinformation of Oswald's alleged right wing leanings. This of course was overshadowed by what was to follow.

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 11:56 am

Mick_Purdy wrote:

There is some evidence early on in the first hours of Lee Oswald having been held in Police custody that some of the authorities were known to have leaked misinformation of Oswald's alleged right wing leanings. This of course was overshadowed by what was to follow.

Hi Mick-- besides the "Free Cuba Committee" mix-up at the press conference are there any other mixups you know of?

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 12:06 pm

Roger, I'm never totally confident that I get across in text what is in my head so it is a pleasant surprise to see you and others here, get what I am saying.

On Ruby: I don't have any information to add to what is out there, just a different emphasis leading to alternative speculations. It is well-known he was a police groupie. I do think the mob angle is a blind alley.

To understand him in relation to his place in Dallas, you need to go back to the attempted bribery of Sheriff Guthrie to allow the Chicago mob in. Guthrie and some reporters in Chicago were certain Ruby was part of the effort and was earmarked to run the restaurant that would act as HQ for all the operations.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=955#relPageId=528

Guthrie didn't play ball, and as you probably know, set up a sting to have the attempt taped.

What followed was the removal of Guthrie to be replaced by Decker, bankrolled by WO Bankston who was named in the tapes as a local liaison to various fences. That is when Ruby moves to Dallas and changes his name to something more "acceptable".

Eventually Bankston, Decker and others including Rev Criswell, helped get Floyd Hamilton a pardon. Bankston would employ Floyd as head of security for his dealership - which no doubt gave a lot of free time for his real work. He started up a "charity" to help young offenders on parole stay out of jail. That would have included his cousin, James Markham. I am certain what was really happening was that Floyd, a break and enter man, was actually teaching these guys how to break into houses and cars. The stay out of jail bit was simple. The stolen goods and cars would be sold through Bankston's contacts and part of the proceeds would go to Decker and and head of Homicide and Robbery in the DPD, one Will Fritz. This would be why Fritz resisted several offers of promotion. In short, justice in Dallas was about as corrupt as it can get.

Bankston was another police groupie - but one with money and influence. That got him a police siren and radio, and a number of chances to ride with cops on callouts - as opposed to Ruby who who had to buy his own "detective special". Although to be fair - he did get an easy run with law enforcement. Until shooting Oswald at least.

The cops virtually owned Ruby.

On Walker: This intelligence report pretty much spells it out.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145526#relPageId=312
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145526#relPageId=313

The report shows that demonstrations during the motorcade by Walker supporters were planned out in early November. The second page specifically references the Stevenson incident by way of showing what to expect.

These protests never materialized - though a small number of protesters were arrested, I do not think they were part of this group - more redneck than politicized students. Not only were the students a "no-show", but Walker made sure he had an alibi being mid-flight. I gather from the withdrawal of the protests and Walker skipping town, that he/they were warned to make themselves scarce.

The propensity of Dallas authorities for misreading (or maybe "misreading") a situation is found in Curry's testimony in relation to Oswald's security during the transfer:

Mr. HUBERT - Was any consideration given to the action of the single individual in the security precautions discussed?
Chief CURRY - Was what?
Mr. HUBERT - Was any consideration given to the possible action of a single man in setting up the security measures that you did, as opposed to mob action, as I understand it?
Chief CURRY - Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT - Your security was really directed toward mob action more than to a single man action?
Chief CURRY - That's right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him, that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that had been made during the night was, "this is a group of one hundred and we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail," so we really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and not an individual.
Mr. HUBERT - Is it fair to state then that there was not any consideration given to the probability of a one- man action?
Chief CURRY - It was not discussed at all, that I know of, in our discussions of security. It was based on the fact that we thought a group of people might try to take action.
Mr. HUBERT - What I wanted to get at is this. Actually, a single-man action would, or rather protection or security against a single-man action would be virtually impossible with a mass of people around even if they were news media?
Chief CURRY - That's right.

So there you have it. They claim they were trying to protect Oswald from a large lynch mob, not a single assassin. So you can't represent a hundred people and act on their behalf. They have to act as a mob, apparently.

Curry earlier had put the entire blame on the individual who "slipped up" and let Ruby in. The real blame of course, was entirely on Fritz... the same Fritz who Curry had claimed could have captured or killed Oswald before he got out of the building, had he not been told by Secret Service, his help wasn't wanted.

From Curry: It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.

On Milteer: It seems to me on balance, that he did have some sort of knowledge. Shot with a rifle from a building - a commie or a "nigger" taking the fall. Pretty specific, yet I get the impression he had only heard echoes of the plan and was no "insider".

The Oxnard caller, to my mind, is a country mile ahead of any other person claimed to have foreknowledge. She says 12:10 only minutes before that time. It passes. But we later learn something did happen at that time. She seems to know Kennedy is alive though and updates it to 12:30 and is right on the money. The call is reported to the supervisor immediately and he in turn, reported it immediately to the FBI after the assassination news came in. Unfortunately the call could not be traced. All that could be determined was that it came within the boundaries of Oxnard and Camarillo. The inability to trace it, plus the strangeness of the call, led the operators and everyone since, to claim she was just some nut case.

Based on the FBI report, my profile of her is that of an intelligent middle-aged female who dabbled in the occult and who was most likely a member of the John Birch Society. This person was obviously aggrieved not just by the government, but the entire system of government - and also had a huge grievance against the courts. That profile smells like a Bircher to me, while the chanting and dialing and etc has the hallmarks of an occult ritual. She remained hands free during the call and was NOT talking to another party.

Their were trucks parked along the parade route. Could such trucks house the radio equipment needed to pass updates on the motorcade to Oxnard?

My profile - if correct - matches at least one person. Lucille Connell. She was an intelligent middle-aged female. A Bircher. And according to Odio, was a member of AMORC and spent a lot of time in the state where they had their HQ.

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 12:09 pm

rogerhucek wrote:

Mick_Purdy wrote:

There is some evidence early on in the first hours of Lee Oswald having been held in Police custody that some of the authorities were known to have leaked misinformation of Oswald's alleged right wing leanings. This of course was overshadowed by what was to follow.

Hi Mick-- besides the "Free Cuba Committee" mix-up at the press conference are there any other mixups you know of?

Not trying to answer for Mick - he may have other information. But there is the consideration that Oswald ha started going to right wing events - possibly under the encouragement of Mike Paine who was trying to get a foot in both "houses". And also the alleged effort to infiltrate Bringuier's group in NO.

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 12:24 pm

greg_parker wrote:

rogerhucek wrote:

Mick_Purdy wrote:

There is some evidence early on in the first hours of Lee Oswald having been held in Police custody that some of the authorities were known to have leaked misinformation of Oswald's alleged right wing leanings. This of course was overshadowed by what was to follow.

Hi Mick-- besides the "Free Cuba Committee" mix-up at the press conference are there any other mixups you know of?

Not trying to answer for Mick - he may have other information. But there is the consideration that Oswald ha started going to right wing events - possibly under the encouragement of Mike Paine who was trying to get a foot in both "houses". And also the alleged effort to infiltrate Bringuier's group in NO.

I haven't got the link or documents at hand but Greg has pretty much summed it up. It was the Dallas DA's office who sought to leak this information at first to the press as I understand it. Bill Alexander was keen to tag Lee Oswald as a right wing nutter at first until Washington and the Feds got a hold of him. Mike Paine should have been considered as one of the primary persons of interest in my opinion in the setting up and framing of Oswald. I'll try and hunt down the appropriate docs.

Fri 18 Jun 2021, 6:10 pm

Some info about Guthrie here.

https://www.angelfire.com/country/DallasHistory/orgcrime.html

Mon 05 Jul 2021, 9:50 pm

Re Jeremy's comment that he's yet to see any evidence of fakery in the backyard pix. Just grab a copy of Photoshop or similar and check the size of the newspapers Oswald is holding relative to his height in the photo. Best done using a high-res copy of 133A. You'll find backyard Oswald's height is around 5 feet or a fraction over. Feel free to draw your own conclusions!

Tue 06 Jul 2021, 10:08 am

orangebicycle wrote:Re Jeremy's comment that he's yet to see any evidence of fakery in the backyard pix. Just grab a copy of Photoshop or similar and check the size of the newspapers Oswald is holding relative to his height in the photo. Best done using a high-res copy of 133A. You'll find backyard Oswald's height is around 5 feet or a fraction over. Feel free to draw your own conclusions!

They were faked despite Jack White saying they were. He always said he only had to be right about one thing. And this was it.

To play Devil's Advocate though... what do you make of using someone only around 5' tall to portray Oswald in fake photos? It would seem a far more difficult task to find a 5' adult male rather than one 5' 9" to play the part and not to mention riskier in terms f getting away with it.

Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:51 pm

Interesting point, Mr or Ms Bicycle. I don't have access to a high resolution copy, and my Photoshop skills are limited (I use GIMP, the cheapskate's version of Photoshop), but I may run an experiment at some point.

One thing that makes me wary of claims that the photos were altered is the lack of agreement about what's supposed to be wrong with them: Oswald's chin is cropped, or the shadows don't match up, or the figure is genuine but the face is pasted in, or the face is genuine but the figure isn't, and so on. It reminds me of the numerous claims about what's wrong with the Zapruder film. I mean, the Bad Guys in the CIA's film-alteration laboratory must have been working around the clock, altering every element of the Zapruder film several times over. And of course there's the Jack White connection, which doesn't inspire much confidence.

Having said that, I'm certainly open to the possibility that the backyard photos are not genuine. Unlike the Zapruder film and Altgens 6, there don't seem to be any practical reasons why they couldn't have been altered, and there are plausible reasons why they might have been. I'll wait to see what the proof turns out to be.

Tue 06 Jul 2021, 10:44 pm

Greg, I have to admit that had me stumped for a while. I mean, why would you choose a 'midget' for an Oswald stand-in? The answer has to be in the way the composite was put together. Photograph the back yard - probably done shortly after the Oswalds left, when both apartments were vacant. Take shots of a 'man in black' (my guess, a Dallas cop in on the 'plot') somewhere entirely different, holding papers, rifle, etc. Get a head shot (no pun intended) of Oswald, paste the elements together, then re-photograph, just as Oswald himself suggested it was done. Where it falls down, and reveals some amateurishness on the part of the fakers, is that the 'man in black' paste-in is slightly out of whack with the other elements. So could be the fakers didn't realise this, or they were under pressure and had no time to fix it.

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