THE BAD BOYS OF OAK CLIFF -- PART I

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27354-the-bad-boys-of-oak-cliff-part-i/ 

An ed forum post by  @Gil Jesus.

Gil is on the right track. 
https://gregrparker.com/essays/

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Unfortunately Gil is under attack from the uber-conspiracist and Tippit disinformationist, Joseph McBride for crimes against conspiracy groupthink. 

I use the word "disinfornmationist" deliberately when it comes to McBride.

I refuse to believe someone with a long history in the news industry is so blithely unaware that the following constitutes proof of anything - except McBride's deplorably low standards. "Marie Tippit told Edgar Lee Tippit what Mentzel told her about the hunt for Oswald he and J. D. were ordered by the DPD to make shortly after the assassination, by at least 12:45 (Oswald was not officially identified until about 2:10 p.m. at the downtown police station)."


Is there a respectable journalist in the world who would accept 3rd or 4th hand hearsay from a nonagenarian on the cusp of dementia as proof of anything?  McBride makes it clear, he most certainly does accept it as proof - and that belief on his part is simply unbelievable. He may as well claim he believes in fairies at the bottom of his garden because the previous owner's daughter had a friend who said she saw one there. 

And Greg Doudna is probably right about the knifing incident. However, as I show in my piece, there was tesimony that Tippit was answering a disturbance call, and there is a gap in the tapes where siuch a call may have been deleted.

An uberconspiratorial ox being gored by the reared ugly head of a mundane explanationist is never a pretty sight.

Jake_Sykes wrote:An uberconspiratorial ox being gored by the reared ugly head of a mundane explanationist is never a pretty sight.

My head wasn't reared to be ugly! That was the work of nature...! 

Before those couple of cunning linguists " Puddles" Norwood,( Voted Bed wetter and prig of the year at that exclusive boarding school, St Baggins Bulge, motto " Semper Doppelgangus") and Professor Larsen object, I know all about the disagreements between the orthodox Fezzites and the adherents of Demotic Fezzian.

The disagreements centre on the , the orthodox Fezzites claim this is a simple pictogram, an anachronistic throwback to the poorly understood period known as Archaic Pre Fezzian. In the Orthodox Fezzite school the above symbol is as simple abbreviation of the first line of " the Celebration of the Dangling Tassle" long recognised as one of the earliest proto Fezzian chants. Long thought to be the invocation of the Fezzian equivalent of the Eleusinian mysteries..when the young adept dons " the first fez of manhood" and is sent off to doppelgangerise bountifully..

It roughly translates as " They who don't want to learn, will never want to know"

However , after the recent discovery and subsequent translation of the " Spermicidal Stele of Stripling High" the more radical scholars of Fezzian believe the symbol actually possesses some as yet undefined theological symbolism.

Perhaps associated with the , or even the  , both thought to represent the pre Bagginsite view of the highly contentious issue of what has come to be known as " Assumption versus Insertion" Orthodox Fezzites believe HARVEY simply assumed his form, descending to earth as a fully formed, if somewhat puny Hungarian polygot doppelganger,

While the iconoclastic school of radical Fezzism, especially those militant anti pre Bagginsites, believe HARVEY was conceived naturally. Of course there are still some fanatical anti Bagginsites, known as the Upturned Fezzotes who believe HARVEY was paperclipped into into being beneath a Budapest abbatoir.. There is yet another offshoot sect known as the Unlubricated Fezzotes who insist HARVEY was actually scraped off a Budapest laboratory wall...after a New Year's Eve party got a little bit out of hand...quite literally if the Unlubricated Fezzotes are to be believed..

Lengthy preamble aside , in Orthodox Fezzian Greg was wondering if anyone knew a good Fez repairer. As Fran Schubert sat on his favourite fez at last months " Cremation of the unholy tassle" celebration...( If anyone is interested PM me and I'll send you a phonetic translation)

I replied.." No I didn't know any good fez repairers but Professor Larsen ( many radical Fezzites thought this symbol represented Jerome Corsi, but after lengthy intertextual analysis it is almost certain this symbol represents Professor Larsen... phonetically " oink oink") said he bought a nice new fez with shiny tassles last week from Infowars. The professor then  describes  buying 8 stage water filtration systems and drums of dried tomato soup , he heard on the Donald Jeffries Show on Ochelli.com that the inter dimensional shape shifting paedos were planning to ship us all off to underground FEMA slave camps"

Some of Gil Jesus's work is ok, some of his analysis is actually quite impressive. As for McBride?

Quite honestly I don't know what to think. Long term exposure to conspiracy seems to erode( corrode?) certain individuals cognitive faculties. Unfortunately for all his apparent ability McBride seems to labour under the misapprehension that exercising your critical thinking skills, and not swallowing every over sauced poorly seasoned conspiratorial tidbit somehow makes you into some militant lone nutter/ government stooge..

When I read him accusing Jonathan of being a disinformation agent simply for asking a very reasonable question, that was it  credibility wise...

Oh yes and all the stuff about Mary Ferrell being some sort of sinister " Gatekeeper"  I was really disappointed with his Tippit book, after all as Greg wrote he was a veteran journalist and a very well respected film critic..

It was little more than a medley of some of the most mouldy shop worn conspiracy tropes, stitched together with all the literary panache of David Liftons little known collection of love sonnets..." Shall I compare thee to a bruised thoracic cavity? " My love is as real as the leaves that doth dangle from a fake tree" " Cupid wound me not with fake arrows, for my love is deeper than the fist of a cackling surgeon"

In fact putting on my genius detective deerstalker...David Lifton and a time machine?? Ummmm I think i've solved the mystery of the " other" Shakespeare!!

He wasn't Kit Marlowe or the Earl of Oxford!! He was a time travelling ghoul in an ill fitting turtleneck sweater...who got his kicks by gazing at glossy close ups of head wounds and lacerated thoracic cavities...

Trine Day should release Best Evidence- the Superdeluxe Box set...with 3 bonus discs of Lifton dribbling down the phone to Marina Oswald..

greg_parker wrote:

Jake_Sykes wrote:An uberconspiratorial ox being gored by the reared ugly head of a mundane explanationist is never a pretty sight.

My head wasn't reared to be ugly! That was the work of nature...! 

Of course I wasn't talking about you Greg. It was Gil Jesus, really. Although, you are the first to suggest that the Tippit homicide was unconnected to the JFKA, at least as far as I know; and I do agree that it was not. So, go ahead and rear your handsome face Greg . It's only natural.

Jake_Sykes wrote:

greg_parker wrote:

Jake_Sykes wrote:An uberconspiratorial ox being gored by the reared ugly head of a mundane explanationist is never a pretty sight.

My head wasn't reared to be ugly! That was the work of nature...! 

Of course I wasn't talking about you Greg. It was Gil Jesus, really. Although, you are the first to suggest that the Tippit homicide was unconnected to the JFKA, at least as far as I know; and I do agree that it was not. So, go ahead and rear your handsome face Greg . It's only natural.

 

Well... despite decades of chemical experients, my face isn't quite dripping off the skull, yet.

Speaking of ugly, I see David G Healy has reared his Zapata'd retarded moot.

I'm Australian. I don't fuckin' wear shoes, you boofheaded bogan galah.  

But you're certainly not fit to polish Ed's glorious winklepickers.

Speaking of ugly, I see David G Healy has reared his Zapata'd retarded moot.


Greg, where has he graced us with his presence? I've got some questions for him. 

Mick, Healy hasn't the cojones to face up to questions from folk like your good self. Someone with decades of real world experience. Someone who knows film inside out. His métier is barely coherent faux hipster stream of consciousness jive,  trying to dazzle the CTwinkie fantasy goofballs

He's the forum equivalent of a bluebottle buzzing around the pile of fresh dogshit on the pavement ( sidewalk to our American friends) Mildly irritating, most definitely insanitary but ultimately inconsequential. As Confucius says " Woman who flies in plane upside down has crack up" sorry eh I meant to post that to another site...Fetzer's Filthiest Filosofers..." Life is measured by more than just years...but man whose proudest moment was landing between the covers of the Great Zapruder Film Hoax should feel fortunate to be measured by years alone"

Yet again the lack of self awareness is quite simply stunning. Here is someone who has spent ( wasted would perhaps be the more accurate description) over two decades serving as guard dog cum bitch cum online flack for a procession of some of the most incompetent buffoons ever to don a tin foil hat in anger, making a complete exhibition of himself ( thankfully not literally, thank Armstrong for small mercies at least..  the fat professor having squandered the catering budget of the 2003 Duluth " symposium" on Cheetos and pickled onion Monster Munch, thus sparing the 30 or so attendees and future generations the truly degrading sight of Healy, after getting   wrecked on fortified wine at lunchtime, and feeling the sudden irrepressible urge to peel off his flared khaki corduroys,  streaking across the podium during Jack White'sPresentation... wheezing , grunting and shrieking " suck on my in camera original you fucking lone neuter trolls" ..poor bemused old Jack just stood there..later he was heard to mutter darkly about " another CIA attempt to assassinate Jack White"... Allegedly during one of David's more energetically provocative star jumps and squat thrusts, the  unusually animated David Lifton, who was studying proceedings with much interest, working himself up into flurry of symphonic flatuence, nudged Dr Costella, who was busy examining his y fronts for hidden bugs, commenting " are those dangly prune like objects an example of pincushion distortion?") casting aspersions on others.. To quote the famous neo Platonic philosopher, Billy Batts.." Go and get your fucking shinebox"..after nearly 30 years of "research" Healy's gone from the heady heights of Jack Whites shoeshine boy, and the guy who let out Fetzer's elasticated corset before an appearance on the New JFK Show, to rolling around in the gutter cradling a half empty gallon bottle of Thunderbird wine and pointing his big toe, peeking out of his disintegrating sneakers at the moon...counting the fake Marilyn Sitzman's he sees balance there..

Almost as ironic as Fezzo upbraiding some hapless COINTELPRO troll for being a " witless minion"... someone who squandered his credibility and his reputation hawking someone else's necrotic confection around various online fora..

Healy may very well be the only ( ahem) " researcher" to boast a truly onomatopoeic name ..his leathery snout resembling the bunioned and calloused heel of a habitual vagrant...

Healy represents the absolute worst excesses of online " research". His sole contribution , apart from his malodorous outbursts and laughable attempts at defending the " alterationists" whimsical japery( yes Mr Healy let's talk PR... your own less than stellar contributions rank up there with  celebrated campaigns such as Dickie Hooke's infamous attempt to flog breath freshening mints..the tagline being " Don't chew 'em".. and David Joseph's attempt to launch a his and hers range of fezzes... let's not forget Jim Fetzer's all too brief stint as the spokesperson for Depend Adult Diapers..) has been two decades worth of semi pornographic homoerotic gibberish over on the Google groups..

Healy, you're a fucking disgrace to all fair minded people, you and your motley crew of fools and shysters have come perilously close to irreparably damaging the public perception of assassination research..

Ed, fuck Healy, as Greg rightly says he isn't fit to shine your winklepickers...

Just don't wear them if you happen to be visiting Kentucky...after State of Kentucky v John Butler et al,  winklepicker means something else entirely to your average Kentuckian

Gil's research is like a breath of fresh air... instead of chasing doppelgangers and fake witnesses down and succession of blind alleys he sticks to the facts. For me reading his work has been something of a mini epiphany. I'd got so jaded and cynical from an endless diet of bullshit research....double doppelganger burgers garnished with hefty dollops of fakery , I'd forgotten it was possible for researchers to consistently produce high quality material... unencumbered by ego and ideological considerations...

Gil obviously understands what makes this forum so unique. Gil, if you happen to be reading this I apologise for not taking your work as seriously as I should have. I disagree with some of your conclusions,  but the overall standard of your work is highly impressive.

As Jeremy wrote it's a joy to read some real research, on a forum that's rapidly descending into farce and self parody.. Reading Gil's work buried amidst the anti vaxxers and corporatist libertarian propaganda was like unearthing a PhD dissertation amidst the colourful barely legible scrawls from Miss Barnard's crèche... Imagination Day at the Ayn Rand Kindergarten! ( "Why Benjamin how did you get Mr Buffalo Horns horns to look so horny?")

Armstrong have mercy on us all...

Mick_Purdy wrote:Speaking of ugly, I see David G Healy has reared his Zapata'd retarded moot.


Greg, where has he graced us with his presence? I've got some questions for him. 

He popped up in Gil's 13 inch head forum thread accusing Ed of being my "shoeshine specialist" and "selling pineapples".   Who knows what the fuck he's babbling about?

But if Ed's perfected the art of faking our pineapples, depite all the anti-counterfeit features, I'll take a bunch of 'em.

a pineapple.

The official story is that Oswald was ambushed and arrested for the murder of Tippit and then later when they lerned he worked in the TSBD, he became a JFK suspect, as well.

I call bullshit on this. It was the other way around. They want it this way further pin him for Tippit. 

I call bullshit because

1. No way no how did Nrewer hear about the Tippit murder on the radio as he claimed.
2. The person who allegedly phoned the cops, Julia Postal, never claimed to hear it. However, she was aware of the assassination.
3. A cop was overheard yelling at Oswald, "Kill the president, will you!"
4. The crowd that gathered were baying for Oswald's blood, but it was over JFK, not Tippit.
5. Reporter Vic Robertson testified in the following manner:
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President?
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there.

The obvious next question should have been "How did you know" - but instead, Griffin changed the subject.

The only logical way Robertson could have known that a JFK suspect was cornered would be from a cop.
-----------
The idea to pin the Tippit murder on Oswald came after he was arrested. And my best guess it came from Decker in that secretive meeing he had with Fritz after Fritz left the TSBD and before heading back to HQ. 

This decision meant changing the shells that were found in order to match with the throwdown pistol used at the arrest. It meant leaning on witnesses and it meant changing the timeline and Oswald's post-assassination movements. We know all of those things were done. And they were obviously not done as part of any pre-planning because it was all so very sloppy.  

That pistol had to have been supplied to the cops by whoever ordered it, if not directly, them through a go-between.  

In fact, the two alleged murder weapons are the only things that really connect the two murders, since both were ordered by "A (J) Hidell". 

Taking that a step further, the pistol / Hidell evidence was followed up with the rifle being switched out for the MC - which would explain the early "Mauser" call.  We now have two weapons purchased by the same person (A Hidell) and, miraculously now a fake Hidell ID "found" on Oswald.

The dominoes were falling in place. The pistol. The rifle. The ID.

According to the DPD radio transcripts, at 1:33 the following discussion takes place. Do you think it was added later?

19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)	19.
	Dispatcher	19.
	19	Do you know what kind of call he was on?
	Dispatcher	What kind of what?
	19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)	Was he on a call or anything?
	Dispatcher	No.

The common conspiracy-theory explanation for Tippit's murder-- that it was done by the conspirators after JFK's murder to make the Dallas police really, really mad-- never made sense to me. At best it seemed like an unintended SNAFU.

Who would plan a fantastically daring, illegal, risky, complicated covert operation to kill the president of the United States of America in broad daylight in front of hundreds of people, and then append the murder of an utterly unremarkable beat cop in a bad neighborhood at the end?

That's like proposing to steal the Mona Lisa from the Louvre and throwing in the theft of a newspaper from a newspaper stand as the grand finale. Not only "who does that?" but also "who plans that?"

lanceman wrote:According to the DPD radio transcripts, at 1:33 the following discussion takes place. Do you think it was added later?

19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)	19.
	Dispatcher	19.
	19	Do you know what kind of call he was on?
	Dispatcher	What kind of what?
	19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens)	Was he on a call or anything?
	Dispatcher	No.

Lanceman,

We know some of the versions of the transcripts offered up in evidence were missing some things, so I guess it is possible that some things were added. But the honest answer is, I don't know.

What I do know is that in a 1967 media interview, Murray Jackson stated that he tried to contact Tippit about a disturbance call but allegedly failed to reach him. And then he got the citizen call from Tippit's car.

At a stretch, you could suggest that the "disturbance" call being referred to was in fact the Tippit shooting itself. But a cop killing hardly qualifies as a disturbance call and Murray clearly starts out placing the disturbance call before the citizen's call from the Tippit car - which presemably went straight to him anyway, whereas he talks about details of the disturbance called being handed to him to take action on. This is on page 13 of the essay. I believe rather than not being able to reach Tippit, he did reach him and Tippit was on that call when he was killed.

On page 12 you can read testimony from  Det. Potts stating that he was told by another cop that Tippit had been killed while on a disturbance call. There was no attempt by the WC to try and elicit the name of the cop.

The young gang in the area was made up guys in their teens and early 20s who were on parole or had other  criminal legal issues hanging over them. Any arrest and it was back to jail.

I think the regular cop was on the take, along with Fritz and Decker -- and when Tippit showed up instead of the regular guy, the person (or persons) involved in the disturbance, panicked and killed him. 

A former member of the Barrow gang, Floyd Hamilton, had taken these boys under his wing ostensibly to put them on the right path - but I think it was more along the lines of acting as a Fagin figure, not a father figure. 

Hamilton was a cousin to Helen Markham and Markham's son James was a member of the gang and on parole. 

At one stage, Marguerite and her enterage paid the Markham home a visit. Helen would not talk to them - but James did - pretending to be his broher, William.

Soon after that, the police raided the place and James "fell" from a second floor window allegedly trying to escape. He broke his leg in the process and eventually admitted that the cops had thrown him out. His parole was revoked after the police allegedly confiscated stolen goods from the property.

In his talk with Marguerite and her group, he claimed to have met Oswald and that Oswald was associating with another individual.  But that's for another post. There is a person who fits the bill as being this associate and who has an extremely interesting background. 

He is a good candidate for being the person handing out the weapons to trace back to Oswald.

I read McBride's book many years ago. My recollections of it are similar to Greg and Alex above.  McBride claims that Tippit was a major part of the conspiracy. That he was quite likely the grassy knoll shooter. After firing the head shot at JFK his next role was to hunt down the patsy Oswald in Oak Cliff and kill him. However he was double crossed by his fellow conspirators and was himself killed.

 All this based on some flimsy claims made by Tippit's dad. If I recall correctly Tippit's dad was 105 years old when MvBride interviewed him. Somehow I doubt that the memories of a 105 year old person can be reliable.

Rogerhucek, that's probably the finest,most cogent and to the point short summation of the problems with the accepted version of the Tippit shooting i've had the pleasure of reading. 

Let's just say after reading  Greg's essays on the subject,  I'm really starting to have second thoughts. Although I'm still on the picket fence.

But only just.

I agree with your point; the type of professionals with the knowhow, and crucially the balls to pull something of this magnitude off... and we're talking in world historical terms here, would surely be experienced enough to keep the variables to an absolute minimum. Like the Vatican the people who planned this thought in terms of, if not centuries,  then most definitely decades and continents..I can't imagine them needlessly complicating and perhaps endangering such an incredibly sensitive operation for the sake of the Dallas Police and Sheriff's departments...All that mattered was Kennedy's death. Everything else could be taken care of post facto. To paraphrase a famous historical aphorism: he who controls the cover up controls the future.

The cover up was the real key. Once the fix was in there was absolutely no need for all the massively complicated fakery that's been alleged. Like all successful psy ops the cover up relied upon simplicity. Hammering home simple emotive images. Portraying Oswald as near destitute wife beating commie loving malcontent... the antithesis of the vigorous permatanned war hero president. With his glamorous wife and photogenic kids the very epitome of the well adjusted all American nuclear family...

The active conspirators could rely upon their brethren ; who drank in the same clubs, married into the same families, knew each others secrets, they knew they would fall obediently into line. Over the decades, intentionally or not, the line between conspirators and collaborators has become blurred. Anyway I don't want to derail the topic any further..

I think Larry H and Greg have pretty much nailed it. People who had the requisite muscle used Ruby as a local mr fixit. Maybe Ruby hired Tippit for some minor job. Maybe as a chauffeur. Making sure someone got out of Dodge. The rather forlorn image of the policeman's tunic, hanging from a peg in the back seat of the slain patrolman's car has always struck me as suggestive.

Maybe the combination of the " poor dumb cop" messing up whatever it was he was supposed to do, and Oswald living to see the sun rise through the bars of his cell on the 23rd, set the train of events in motion that culminated in the basement of the DPD on the Sunday morning.

The sheer amount of loose ends; the contortions required to fit the original commie frame into the hastily constructed lone nut mold..imho something on the ground went drastically wrong. Maybe a combination of unseen factors . From my reading and understanding your average covert operation( multiply by at least  a couple of hundredfold for something on this epic scale) is kept as simple as possible. Any unnecessary complications just adds to the variables, anyone of which could be fatal. Simple cause and effect..each action causes a multiplicity of ripples...any one of which could turn into a tsunami. I don't want to divert the thread, but I have to say that Liftons " real world conspiracy" scenario...faking autopsies bodies and any number of home movies , shooting from the front but putting your patsy in the rear... it's laughable. Best Evidence was to real world covert operations what Garth Marenghis Dark Place was to hospitals...

I figure there were three operations; the actual assassination, the set up and the cover up. All strictly compartmentalized. And linked only at the very very top. I doubt the people who did the shooting knew who the intended patsy was ..likewise the patsy handlers would have no inclination about the other facets of the operation. I doubt they'd have even known who the intended target was. I agree with Drago, insofar as the Chicago and Miami operations, maybe others, were dummies, designed as bodyguards. The Paines were perhaps kind of poachers turned gamekeepers...if they were manipulated pre assassination they sure made up for it, especially in the immediate post assassination scramble to make sure Oswald's corpse got squeezed into the lone nut frame...

When dealing with lies Churchills truism , about the truth being so precious it requires a bodyguard of lies , still stands. Many investigators, probably including Garrison, picked up some of these false trails...

The actual assassination itself, imho, would have relied on tried and tested methods. Seperate shooter teams/ logistics teams, one or maybe two on the ground facilitators ( one of whom would have subcontracted a trusted local , Ruby, who in turn would have turned to a couple of reliable cops...Sgts Dean and Hill for example,) The original story ( commie conspiracy) only necissitated Oswald and/ or his rifle to be discovered.

Team A- kill Kennedy and get the fuck out of Dodge asap...Team B make sure incriminating evidence linking Oswald to the international commie Conspiracy is found , and Oswald himself is killed " resisting arrest" etc..

Something obviously went seriously awry... triggering a series of hastily, sometimes poorly thought out improvisations , that lead ultimately to the basement scenario and the equally shambolic lone nut cover up.

The first two involving small highly motivated, fiercely loyal and disciplined teams . To imagine professionals who operated on this scale , playing for these stakes would entrust the key shot( I know fuck all about firearms thus imI assuming that the low trajectory frontal shot would be the optimum shot) to an nondescript Dallas patrolman, with neither the skill set or the experience, is taking a trip too far through the looking glass into Conspiracy La La Land.

The Tippit shooting , although tangentially linked via the overall plan , was certainly not planned ,and it most likely had nothing directly to do with Oswald.

Although Greg could well be right. The Tippit shooting could have been completely unconnected, and used, as a cynical afterthought to further strengthen the frame.

Eitherways, like Ruby's star turn in the basement framing Oswald for the Tippit shooting was an ultimately fortuitous improvisation. 

My guess is the big boys back in DC, some actively complicit, others mere sympathisers, whose talents would soon be called upon to help engineer the cover up, must have been spluttering into their post prandial snifters, or their glasses of Chateaux Pereguey , having ordered a pre 1867 vintage  to celebrate Jack's demise.. watching these redneck hicks and bumpkins tarnish the carefully manicured image of America the Free.

The Tippit case has been buried under so much fantasy bullshit over the intervening decades...so much so the only real way forward is throw out EVERYTHING...most especially your own preconceptions...

alex_wilson wrote:Rogerhucek, that's probably the finest,most cogent and to the point short summation of the problems with the accepted version of the Tippit shooting i've had the pleasure of reading. 

[...]

I figure there were three operations; the actual assassination, the set up and the cover up. All strictly compartmentalized. And linked only at the very very top. I doubt the people who did the shooting knew who the intended patsy was ..likewise the patsy handlers would have no inclination about the other facets of the operation. I doubt they'd have even known who the intended target was. I agree with Drago, insofar as the Chicago and Miami operations, maybe others, were dummies, designed as bodyguards. The Paines were perhaps kind of poachers turned gamekeepers...if they were manipulated pre assassination they sure made up for it, especially in the immediate post assassination scramble to make sure Oswald's corpse got squeezed into the lone nut frame...

When dealing with lies Churchills truism , about the truth being so precious it requires a bodyguard of lies , still stands. Many investigators, probably including Garrison, picked up some of these false trails...

The actual assassination itself, imho, would have relied on tried and tested methods. Seperate shooter teams/ logistics teams, one or maybe two on the ground facilitators ( one of whom would have subcontracted a trusted local , Ruby, who in turn would have turned to a couple of reliable cops...Sgts Dean and Hill for example,) The original story ( commie conspiracy) only necissitated Oswald and/ or his rifle to be discovered.

Team A- kill Kennedy and get the fuck out of Dodge asap...Team B make sure incriminating evidence linking Oswald to the international commie Conspiracy is found , and Oswald himself is killed " resisting arrest" etc..

Something obviously went seriously awry... triggering a series of hastily, sometimes poorly thought out improvisations , that lead ultimately to the basement scenario and the equally shambolic lone nut cover up.

The first two involving small highly motivated, fiercely loyal and disciplined teams . To imagine professionals who operated on this scale , playing for these stakes would entrust the key shot( I know fuck all about firearms thus imI assuming that the low trajectory frontal shot would be the optimum shot) to an nondescript Dallas patrolman, with neither the skill set or the experience, is taking a trip too far through the looking glass into Conspiracy La La Land.

The Tippit shooting , although tangentially linked via the overall plan , was certainly not planned ,and it most likely had nothing directly to do with Oswald.

Although Greg could well be right. The Tippit shooting could have been completely unconnected, and used, as a cynical afterthought to further strengthen the frame.

Eitherways, like Ruby's star turn in the basement framing Oswald for the Tippit shooting was an ultimately fortuitous improvisation. 

My guess is the big boys back in DC, some actively complicit, others mere sympathisers, whose talents would soon be called upon to help engineer the cover up, must have been spluttering into their post prandial snifters, or their glasses of Chateaux Pereguey , having ordered a pre 1867 vintage  to celebrate Jack's demise.. watching these redneck hicks and bumpkins tarnish the carefully manicured image of America the Free.

The Tippit case has been buried under so much fantasy bullshit over the intervening decades...so much so the only real way forward is throw out EVERYTHING...most especially your own preconceptions...

Thanks, Alex. I appreciate it! I think we're on the same page about a lot. If you didn't know it, you're the poet of this forum. The funniest writer, too.

I think Greg and Gil are really on to something, regardless of whether or not they are entirely correct. Important pieces of the puzzle start to fall into place when you take their hypotheses seriously.

Just yesterday I happened to read about the attempt on Warren Reynolds' life in his basement in Belzer's Hit List, and thought Belzer nailed it by calling it "amateur hour." Shot in the head at close range and Reynolds lives? Somebody had never done this sort of thing before. This is not Z-R Rifle wetwork, this is K-Mart wetwork: street hoods, ornery enough to kill someone but not at all professional about it or good at it. That sure fits what Greg and Gil are saying.

A piece fits into place.

I would gladly plunk Ruby into the category of happenstance too if I could, but I can't. He was too active and clearly knew too much in advance and in the immediate aftermath. I think you're right when you write, "Eitherways, like Ruby's star turn in the basement framing Oswald for the Tippit shooting was an ultimately fortuitous improvisation." While it made the whole Dallas affair highly suspect, it did have the ultimately advantageous effect of throwing another entire angle of "crazy" into the mix, and ultimately adding to the mafia (and for the knuckle-dragging set, Jews) into the jumble of sponsors and patsies and agents... creating the strange bullshit-flavored ice cream (or is it ice-cream flavored bullshit?) we have today.

Tippit as "badge man"? McBride really outdid himself on that one. Talk about posthumous character assassination.

The thing I'm beginning to differ with nearly everybody on the CT side on is that the more I think about it, the more I think looking at Oswald does not tell you who killed Kennedy, as fascinating as Oswald's life is. It tells you who set up Oswald. What he maybe thought he was doing. It tells you about various covert ops at the time, which were numerous and of profound importance in their own right. But it doesn't lead to the actual people behind the guns who killed JFK.

Because Oswald really truly was the patsy he said he was. Patsies are compartmentalized like animals in the kill room at the end of a slaughterhouse. They don't know anything. They're best at their jobs when they are a hunk of dead meat or a jabbering mad imbecile like Sirhan that might as well be a different species for all the sense it makes.

I think Sylvia Meagher was and you are right to wonder about what the point of Jim Garrison's crusade ultimately was. Behind LHO is Banister. Behind him is ONI but let's just say it's the CIA. They coordinate teams of agents and assets and informants and unwitting assets all over the globe simultaneously, 24/7. I think they could keep Lee from meeting the actual assassins in this big old world. I think they probably do compartmentalization expertly.

Gil's essay has  caused our dear Brian to have a major relapse.

This was brought to my attention by someone on Facebook.
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/GhVq7gV13b0

The boy has all the depth of a wet sidewalk.

Thanks Roger for your very kind remarks. They are much appreciated. I only hope my attempts at humour don't needlessly deflect attention away from the serious work that's being done here.. Talking of humour...in this case the unintentional comedy gold type of humour..

Poor old Brian...he'll never learn . 

Watching him in action is like watching a goofy big kid who has dragged his ACME Stuart Hall signature " It's A Knockout" comedy goalposts to the abandoned strip of waste ground next to Old Trafford....trying to convince the thousands of mildly amused but generally disinterested and contemptuous football fans, streaming past on their way to big match , that instead of going to a proper venue to watch top class performers they should stop and watch as some buffoon in pink sandals, the greatest free kick specialist since David Healy's contortionist cousin stuffed a leg up his highly accomodating arsehole before surreptitiously entering the one legged man arsekicking olympics, boot the ball over the bar. With a depressingly predictable monotony..

Pink sandaled Pele missing open goal after open goal equals the most skilful researcher/ detective/ psychologist/ expert in animal husbandry with his scribbles, his woman's face, his cutting edge science and his super spook invisible rabbit, in his invisible workman's clothes, who, using his intellectual international CIA spook training sat upstairs with the white collar workers to blend in, with his  " real" research...and not just the fantastical delusions of basement dwelling uberCTwinkie...

Gilbride is nothing but a jumped up pissant with serious delusions of grandeur...

Honestly , Brian for your own sake...for the sake of your mental wellbeing, you should find yourself another hobby.

P.S. WTF is John Corbett when he's at home?? You don't need to be Sigmund Freud, or even Dr Ruth to realise someone who signs off as " Big Dog" has, how shall I put this politely?..some outstanding issues...

He should get together with the esteemed Professor Larsen and " measure" " IQs"

He is suing Youtube.

P.P.S. 

I'm sick and tired of reading bitter, twisted unimaginative self proclaimed researchers referring to this forum as some sort of cult. 

Ironically enough the only thing most ROKCers DO have in common is an inbuilt aversion to certain cult like " theories" and their duplicitous adherents who have come perilously close to destroying whatever vestige of credibility that remains with their tawdry theatrics, intellectual bankruptcy and, most of all , their shockingly underhanded tactics .

I've disagreed with Greg, as have many of the core members, but such disagreements are healthy,  they should be welcomed, as it is often  the spark from such mutually respectful debate that causes the flame to be lit...the flame that eventually illuminates the darkness of doubt and ignorance.

I've never once written " Prayerman is Oswald" . I don't know who Prayerman is. Oswald most certainly remains a likely candidate. Greg, Sean, Stan, Barto and the core ROKCers, plus other brave souls elsewhere, have had the courage and the perseverance to continue with a line of research that threatens the status quo. That suffocating ( insufferable) air of lethargy and smug arrogance that so often characterises both side of the spurious debate .

Anyone remotely interested in solving the case, rather than using the various fora as pulpits for whatever their specific worldviews or adolescent fantasies happens to be, should be doing everything possible to assist with what may very well be the last best chance to make a significant breakthrough.

The tactics, by and large, over the past half century or so , have veered between the catastrophic and the merely comedic..

What is the use of knowing the truth if that truth is almost universally derided as the hallucinatory fantasies of a bunch of deluded crackpots?

What's the use of the truth if that truth has been knowingly transformed into a shadow? To offer comfort and succour to a nest of viperish lies?

JFK assassination research has transformed into the palimpsest of our times... beneath the surface; the endless recitations of bullet trajectories etc a deeply unpleasant subtext bleeds through... revealing the various social political delusions certain researchers nurture as daydreams..

I'd forgotten just how cringe enducingly horrendous that shit hole truly is... that Brian would think of lowering himself , to rub shoulders with the likes of Healy, Bigdog and other such peddlers of hateful bilge and banality says it all...

Brian, it's hardly Greg's fault Armstrong's theory proved incapable of withstanding proper scrutiny. Looking at his methods, that could be politely described as tendentious, and some of the "evidence", that bordered on the outright deceptive, it was less a research project, more a workshop on PR , marketing strategies and the cynical manipulation of a certain type of " researchers" seemingly unquenchable desire to " believe" in something...no matter how farfetched and outlandish..

The central , overarching premise; puny malnourished Hungarian HARVEY the polyglot , with his dumpy unibrowed non smiling fake mom, and the husky athletic all American LEE, with his statuesque forces sweetheart fashion plate of a fake mom( or was she his actual mom? Armstrong could give the medieval chroniclers and the Old Testament Patriarchs a run for their money when it comes to genealogy) aside from being patently ridiculous goes against the basic tenets of intel tradecraft. In fact one of his own examples, Molody aka Lonsdale, actually DISproves his argument. 

Molody , after all was provided with the identity of a deceased Canadian, not a live doppelganger.

Brian, in the final analysis this is about the assassination. Yes, Armstrong provided an invaluable service by accumulating, and making available, a vast collection of primary source materials, but if his central premise is false, and if it's most forceful proselytes had turned the doppelganger table into an impediment and a source of ridicule, what should we do?

Ignore it? 

Close our eyes and keep believing?

If you think I'm mistaken don't just call me a troll before launching into a vitriolic spleen fest,yes Lord Gordo is an absolute joke, but so what? 

Explain why you think Armstrong's thesis has so much merit.

As for Prayerman, you knowingly took my comments out of context. Never once, not ever since I've been a member here , have I written " Oswald is Prayerman" Never once have I been asked to write it. The only arguments dismissed here are the sort that quite honestly dismiss themselves. Arguments reliant on wild flights of fantasy, arguments lacking any basic evidentiary foundation...

Prayerman of course is far more than just the footage. I honestly think this forum has developed serious, potentially case breaking leads ..the sort of leads that returns this case to the land of the possible...instead of floating around in the airless voids of make believe, or the sewers of cynical tabloid fancy

I know you won't believe me Brian, but if I genuinely thought you'd made a strong, cohesive and compelling argument I'd have no problems saying so 

I'm sorry Brian, whoever Prayerman is, he's not a diminutive 300lb grey haired woman. 

Oh wait, what's that you say? Vince Palamara says Prayerman is actually Sarah Stanton? Well that settles it...after all how could anyone possibly disbelieve a Trine Day stalwart? So  Judyth Vary Baker was a " witness" too?... I'm sold!! Are Trine Day still offering 30% discounts if you buy Me and Lee, David Ferrie and Dr Mary's Monkey??

Brian, until you realise your personal opinions are not universal truths, and that disagreeing with you isn't tantamount to dishonesty. Until you are mature enough to accept criticism , and you stop trying to blame others for your mistakes. Until you actually start to present reasonably coherent, structured arguments,  aspiring to something more weighty and meaningful than " I'm a genius detective/ psychologist and if you disagree with me you're obviously a troll, booby or dishonest noodnick, who spends their days craving the darkness of Jim DiEs ample behind , and their nights sipping tea and nibbling playfully on Miss Euphemia Fflange's notoriously soggy crumpets with Lord Gordo, the eyebrow twitching terror of Tipton on the Thames topless tombola nights" ....what's the point? I'm just wasting my fucking time..you'll call me a troll, insinuate I'm part of some nefarious cabal dedicated to denying the world ( and JFK assassination research forums) the opportunity to bask in the luminous bounty of ScrumDrums towering genius...

I don't care what you write about me Brian. How could I? If I did that would make me a hypocrite of Bagginsonian proportions. But unless you possess actual evidence, evidence you can post, unless you can put up I think its high time you shut up, and stop making spurious claims about Greg. 

I've known Greg for a few years now, and he's a decent honourable man. Whose worked damn hard, too fucking hard in fact, to the detriment of his health. By all means disagree with him, but unless you have any real evidence, please Brian, quit making those quite frankly fantastical allegations... that he agreed with you , saying "  Prayerman is Sarah Stanton". 

Likewise calling Greg a criminal...simply because he has the temerity to disagree with you? 

Nevermind the endless boasting, you sound like a 13 year old suburban kid attempting to make a rap song...or Professor Larsen trying to sing the blues...
" What can a cowboy hatted polymathic genius do? When he's got 'em ole IQ measurin' blues?"

Forget the endless self aggrandising rants and adolescent braggadocio, nevermind James Gordon; you obviously think I'm mistaken, you obviously think HARVEY existed , IMHO the one and only Lee Oswald was a native English speaker. What makes you think otherwise?

You do know the so called Oswald Project contradicts the major tenets of Doppelgangerism? Being one Oswald light and commencing when Oswald ( singular) joined the Marines? Not when HARVEY was paperclipped into being beneath some abandoned mortuary , somewhere in deepest Budapest...

You should be thanking Greg, RC D , Jeremy and co, ultimately this is about the assassination, right? If their efforts have brought us a little closer to the truth shouldn't they be applauded?

To Gil, I'm sorry if i've hijacked your thread, and apologies to the other members and lurkers too  Brian, I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say. What do you think makes H and L so persuasive?

"Brian, until you realise your personal opinions are not universal truths, and that disagreeing with you isn't tantamount to dishonesty. Until you are mature enough to accept criticism , and you stop trying to blame others for your mistakes. Until you actually start to present reasonably coherent, structured arguments,  aspiring to something more weighty and meaningful than " I'm a genius detective/ psychologist and if you disagree with me you're obviously a troll, booby or dishonest noodnick, who spends their days craving the darkness of Jim DiEs ample behind , and their nights sipping tea and nibbling playfully on Miss Euphemia Fflange's notoriously soggy crumpets with Lord Gordo, the eyebrow twitching terror of Tipton on the Thames topless tombola nights" ....what's the point? I'm just wasting my fucking time..you'll call me a troll, insinuate I'm part of some nefarious cabal dedicated to denying the world ( and JFK assassination research forums) the opportunity to bask in the luminous bounty of ScrumDrums towering genius..."

Bears repeating.

The idea that Tippit was a part of the JFK conspiracy is laughable. He does not seem to have been much intelligent. Hardly the type of person the plotters would be interested in recruiting .

Vinny, I could buy Tippit being involved, perhaps Ruby or whomever, offered him ,$50/100 to carry out some seemingly innocuous little errand: A chauffeur, or a courier.

I've been reading Larry Hs " Tipping Point", specifically the part where he describes Ruby's state of mind. How he immediately goes from cheery and upbeat to morose and introspective, then to positively frantic ,as the day progresses, and news begins to filter in.

Just because he may have been involved in gunrunning etc( and I tend to believe his actual role has become overexaggerated, and over romanticised too perhaps, as his post assassination notoriety continued to grow.) it doesn't necessarily mean he knew the purpose of the operations he may have participated in. 

Ruby strikes me as the eternal wannabe; his life one long hustle to be considered worthy of sitting at the big boy's table. Exactly the type; desperately insecure and craving status, who could have been somehow persuaded, or leant upon , to commit, what would have rightly seemed to more ordered , rational minds, an act of suicidal folly. Whatever pressures were brought to bear, and whatever financial enducements were offered, his lust for recognition and respect could easily have been manipulated,; you can almost imagine him hunched in some phone booth, perspiring heavily as he feels the amphetamine rush surge through him, hypnotised by his own reflection staring back at him, " You say i'll be an honest to God hero, huh? I sure won't be wearing those new pants Eva bought me, they make me look real swish, hey Lew, do yah think those pants make me look swish?"

Along with Greg, RC D and the good folks hereabouts, Larry H is the only one who seems to understand how compartmentalization works. And how high risk disavowable cover ops were governed on a ruthlessly enforced need to know basis...

More than likely Ruby was hired to handle relatively menial on the ground roles; logistics, recommended " friendly" law enforcement personnel etc.

Imho something went seriously wrong with the original plan, meaning one of several back up scenarios were hastily put into motion. I don't know, maybe with events in Dallas threatening to spiral completely out of control, when the actual reality of the situation hit the plotters, and their allies( remember none other than Napoleon himself cautioned : no plan, no matter how perfect ever survives contact with the enemy), and the barely exorcised shades of the Missile Crisis began to stir anew... that was perhaps when the top level continuity of government types stepped in, and put their foot down. Bundy's  " No Conspiracy" the soft thump of hand stitched Italian leather 

But Tippit as an actual conspirator? No fucking way. Badgeman is just a mirage...a phantasy conjured up from imperfections , both in the film stock and in certain so called photo analyst's imaginations.

Watching Greg and Gil glide over the fetid scum polluted surface of acjfk is like watching fucking Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo dropping in on the Dunny on the Wold over 75s Ladies 5 a side league ..

Big Dog really is an utterly reprehensible piece of excrement. Someone who gets his jollies by taunting people whom he believes, in his infinite wisdom, to be mentally handicapped.

If he'd have been alive in Georgian London he'd have spent his days off( John Corbett , Junior Under Assistant Latrine bucket emptier , Marshalsea Debtors Prison) with his face pressed up against the bars of Bedlam, giggling toothlessly and the poor souls imprisoned there. 

A soulless bloated wretch...inflated with windy rhetoric and  empty pomposity.

Brian, unfortunately simply repeating " I'm a skilled researcher" over and over ad infinitum, does not magically transform you into a skilled researcher. 

Like Professor Larsen's jocular offer to " measure IQs", ones level of skill, and indeed,  the quality of one's IQ is measured by the content  their arguments.

I don't want to seem overly harsh Brian, honestly I don't, compared to heartless automatons and intellectual ( and moral) parasites like Big Dog, (who seems to take a pathological delight in leeching of the suffering of others. Of course the irony is his own senses have become so dulled, and his thought processes so atrophied, he doesn't realise that he is suffering too.) you are a virtual paragon!

However your argument is so rife with fallacious reasoning and hysterical non sequitur, to the impartial observer, indeed to any observer you come across as anything but skilful.

You've allowed yourself to become consumed by bitterness and rancour, endlessly jousting against  shadows and phantasms of your own creation

Brian, us mere mortals can only deal with empirical evidence. Evidence that is tangible, that actually exists, in a materialistic sense, in this world of 5 senses and 3 dimensions.

In the one thread that actually exists , the only person who thought Chris's enhancement looked like a woman ,was the venerable Professor Larsen. Only briefly, before changing his mind..

Likewise Chris gave his opinion. He thought the resultant frame looked like a woman. The key word being THOUGHT

This is not proof Brian, these are simply opinions. 

Your argument seems, to a greater or lesser extent, to rely upon this enhancement. An enhancement you further enhanced by drawing on. Come on Brian, none of these enhancements look remotely human. I'm sorry , when it comes to film I tend to give a great deal of credence to Mick. Someone who has spent his professional career dealing with the medium. In his words Brian, it's artwork, an overpixelated blob. 

Neither the original enhancement ( especially not the colourised version) nor your own version looks remotely human. Obese arms? Chubby cheeks " measured photogrammetrically" OK Brian, give us the details so we can attempt to repeat the phenomenon..

You can't seriously claim that blurry mess resembles Sarah Stanton? Brian, you DREW over the photo!! Does that qualify as cutting edge science? Come on, man..this is getting ridiculous.. You, and that loathsome jumped up pissant Gilbride have become lost in some bizarre faux Arthurian quest...a lurid psychodrama..both of you consumed by  your fantasies of revenge..

As for the Altgens photograph? Are you denying half the Depository front " platform" is obscured by Secret Service agents? Or are you claiming a mysterious cabal of spook forgers magically " Secret Servicified" the photo in the half hour or so before it went out on the wires?
Sarah's own contemporaneous FBI statement rules her out. She states unequivocally that she went inside " immediately" after the shots..

Were back to dealing with metaphysics again, discussing the essence of reality..Buell's statement " we stated at each other for the longest time" seemingly only exists in some twilight zone, an interstitial gap between dimensions perhaps..

And in his book he states quite clearly he doesn't know who the Prayerman figure is..

As for Sarah's photograph? It does indeed confirm her obesity,  her grey hair and her diminutive size and rotund figure. Any one of those features rule her out of contention..

James Gordon couldn't care less about Prayerman. Far from masterminding some underground cabal dedicated to keeping your " superior evidence" off the internet, draped in his cable knit scarlet inquisitors robe and cackling maniacally as he summons one of his phlanxes of zombified droog like minions , ordering them to go forth and expunge all trace of Brian Doyle's highly skilled material...for the sake of lesser intellects and internet nitwits...
Look through the threads Brian, look at the way the likes of Josephs, Hargrove and co behaved. With that cringing lickspittle Don Jeffries cowering in the shadows, bucket and shovel poised at the ready...Apart from the one thread, and a couple of others, Prayerman is persona non grata...the very subject threatens to many vested interests...especially Lord Gordo..who has a particular fondness for string vests ..

For a time the place was quite literally swamped with H and L fantasy propaganda. With Lord Gordo, in all his tanktopped munificence, even swooping down to maintain the yin Yang doppelibrium , defending John Butler's delicate sensibilities from the harsh intrusions of reality..

Lord Gordo quite literally bent over backwards ( there's a thought that'll forever haunt me...Lord Gordo, au naturel, with only a couple of strategically placed soapy bubbles to preserve his modesty, scuttling crab like a la the Exorcist across the polished oak floorboards of his sumptuous salle de ban..." Fe Fi Fo Fum I smell the herbal scented suds of an Englishman" Kathy Beckett calls out , from beneath the brace of her gimp mask, lying spreadeagled on Lord Gordo's Louis XV Emperor sized bed, restrained by a quite bewilderingly complex assortment of straps, hoists and pulleys... Armstrong have mercy on us all) to accommodate the H and L fantasy cultists. Talk about credible moderation!! He did less than fuck all as Baggins bombarded the place with his bogus propaganda tracts, and Fezzo, in between his incontinent spurts of nonsense, made the most scurrilous allegations...

Brian, there's absolutely no shame in being mistaken. Learning from our mistakes is the surest way to ensure we don't make them again...

By the way the whole British bastard, British cowardice routine is getting kind of old . You understand you're just underlining your own ignorance and intolerance?

And to keep alleging Jim DiE knowingly sabotaged the chance to get first generation prints just to spite you is bordering on the downright libelous.

Calling people trolls, and liars, regaling us all with a litany of wholly spurious allegations and endlessly repeating a list of half truths, falsehoods and outright fabrications does not a skilled researcher make..

Meanwhile over on the 13 Inch Head forum we've been treated to  DR Neiderhuts( Harvard Medical school class of 83) masterclass in pompous buffoonery. Rising to almost Fetzeresque heights of obfuscation and obsequiousness..with Little Barnie, resplendent in his new ACME Buster Crabbe autograph waterwings splashing about deliriously in the background.. only stopping to bless us with more of his esoteric profundity..

According to the good doctor to learn the truth about Lt Col Prouty you must read Of Col Proutys own works... Adding as an ominous postscript, " And ignore the CIA disinformation"

All righty then ill add Secret Team to my reading list... along with Me and Lee, Files on JFK, Chauncey Holt's " memoirs" and Harry Dean and Tosh Plumlee's " confessions"

No one's denying Prouty was who he said he was... some of his stuff is of interest, but the vast percentage of his JFK work is blighted by lurid over exaggeration , and , on more than one occasion,  outright fabrications

Reading Larry Hs valiant attempts to talk some sense into the inhabitants of CIA through the looking glass dreamworld is like reading Evelyn Waugh trying to teach Miss Barnard's crèche English composition, or AJP Taylor trying to teach Miss Cole's class at the Ayn Rand Kindergarten about 20th century history...

Imagine trying to pull rank on a fucking internet forum... I'm a doctor doncha know... there's a big sit com just waiting to be written...Are You Being Troofed?

Starring Kathy Beckett as Mrs Slocombe ( and Don Jeffries as her pussy) Lord Gordo as doddering old Mr Grace ..Jimbo Baggins and Fezzo as Mr LEE and HARVEY Humphries..

" I'm free but my doppelganger ain't!".." Oohh I bet he'd look nice with a fake mastoidectomy scar".." You're not kidding HARV! I'd stick me Dremel drill into his neck anytime"

Armstrong save us all..