The Limo Did Not Stop

First topic message reminder :

I viewed a recent interview with Clint Hill who mentioned that the Secret Service follow up car maintained a 3-5 foot distance behind the presidential limousine at all times regardless of speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WKpHQkHpXo

I reviewed various film clips of the motorcade taken between Love Field and Dealey Plaza and was astonished to see that this was true.  After all, traffic safety experts warn us to maintain a certain distance in multiples of car lengths behind the vehicle in front and those multiples increase with increasing speed. So if the presidential limo stopped, why didn’t the SS follow up car crash into it?

A key insight is gained by imagining two people, each holding the ends of a rope at a separation distance that just avoids having the rope sag. If they walk at the same speed in the same direction, the rope will neither sag nor pull taught. If the leader were to slow down, the rope will sag until the follower also begins to slow down. If the follower slows down at the same rate as the leader but after a delay, the sag of the rope will be maintained. The takeaway is that for identical deceleration rates, the sag of the rope only depends on the initial speed and the delay time of the follower to commence slowing down.

The Delayed Braking Response Distance is the distance a vehicle will travel between the time the driver recognizes the need to brake and the time the brakes are applied.

DBRD = Td * Vi

Where:
Vi = Initial velocity (feet/sec)
Td = Delay time in applying the brakes (seconds)

For a skilled driver, the minimum Td is found to be 0.7 (seconds)

https://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/reactiontime.html

It is assumed that the presidential limousine was initially traveling at 8 miles per hour which is the lowest velocity determined from the Zapruder film. It is also assumed that the initial separation distance between the presidential limo and SS followup car was 5 feet which of the upper range of the Clint Hill estimate. Because this separation distance was tightly maintained, it means that the SS followup car was also traveling at an initial velocity of 8 miles per hour. These values give the maximum margin for avoiding a collision. It will also be assumed that once the brakes are applied, both vehicles will slow down at the same rates. This eliminates the need to know the specific braking characteristics of either vehicle. It also means that the braking distances of both vehicles are the same and cancel each other out.

A collision is determined by comparing the initial separation distance with the Delayed Braking Response Distance. If the DBRD is greater than or equal to the initial separation distance, the vehicles collide.

Evaluating the DBRD for a delay time of 0.7 seconds at a velocity of 8 miles per hour (11.7 feet/sec) it is found that the SS follow up car travels a distance of 8.2 feet before the brakes are even applied. A collision results.

In fact, for a separation distance of 5 feet, a collision appears unavoidable at speeds above 4-5 miles per hour unless the drivers of both vehicles are in communication so that the followup car can begin braking first.

What probably happened was that the gap was somewhat larger and the SS followup car braked far more aggressively than the presidential limo. What many of the witnesses (particularly those further back in the motorcade) who claimed the limo stop actually saw the very abrupt deceleration of the SS followup vehicle and conflated it with the presidential limo coming to a stop. Those witnesses nearby, including the motorcycle escorts noted their relative gain on the presidential limo as well as the narrowed gap between the two vehicles. The stress of the situation filled in the details.

I have sent an inquiry to Clint Hill on how collisions were avoided in the motorcade.

Dont know if yall seen Newman interview by Brownlow.. his answers and statements are clear.
Never waivered.
He notes the Zap film doesnt show, for whatever, reason, the braking, limo nose dive and then flooring it so puff of black smoke rolled out the tail pipes.
Zapruder may have captured it but extant films defy physics again here.
Not everything is fake.
Just the shit necessary to convince you of Lee's guilt. DUH!
Zaps film wasnt used for that.

Cheers for Beers!
Ed

Chris Davidson: “ Your initial concern was why did the QueenMary not run into the limo if the limo braked/hard. At 3.74mph or less, I'm fairly certain it would have moved closer, but not enough speed with a 5/6ft difference between cars for Kinney to actually hit the limo.”


Let’s assume that both the limo and SS car slowed down to 3.74 miles per hour and the SS car was able to maintain 5 feet of separation during the slowdown. The latter is a generous assumption as Kinney’s response would necessarily lag to account for his perceived need to brake and time to apply the brakes. For a very experienced driver, 0.8 seconds is about the best that can be expected. If Kinney was among those that stayed up late and drank the night before, his response time would be considerably worse.


See Fig. 1, page 9 “Total Brake Response Latency” from:


https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Heikki-Summala/publication/233039156_Brake_Reaction_Times_and_Driver_Behavior_Analysis/links/00b7d5191bc11c0815000000/Brake-Reaction-Times-and-Driver-Behavior-Analysis.pdf?origin=publication_detail


Using your stopping distance calculator, a hard break of the limo at 3.74 miles per hour (5.5 feet/s) would require 0.6 feet. The SS car would have the same breaking distance once Kinney realized the need to hard brake but the breaking would begin 0.8 seconds later. In the mean time, the SS car would travel 5.5 fps * 0.8 s = 4.4 feet.

Since the braking distances are the same, they make no difference in the change in distance between the vehicles. So the final separation of the vehicles is 5.0-4.4 = 0.6 feet. While the vehicles would not contact under this (very) optimistic case, Clint Hill is either pinned between the cars or the heels of his shoes are scuffed.

Such a deceleration over 0.6 feet would subject the passengers to an acceleration of 0.8 g towards the front of the vehicles. By this time, JFK’s back/neck wound rendered him incapacitated and would be unable to prevent being the thrust into the back of Connolly’s seat. Are you proposing that this accounts for Dan Rather’s claim that the Z-film showed the president “moving violently forward”?

If a more realistic response time for Kinney of 1.0 second is used, the vehicles contact even at 3.74 miles per hour.

If the vehicles were really going at 3.74 miles per hour, Clint Hill could have walked to the limo.

Since the “Swan Song - Math Rules” and “Unveiling the Limo Stop ” threads on the EF collectively total 97 pages, could you summarize what you believed happened in a few sentences? Do you have an article online that does this?

Just prior to breaking, the limo and its passengers were traveling at 7.5 miles per hour (11 feet per second) relative to the street.

If the limo brakes hard, it decelerates at a rate of about 25 feet per second per second relative to the street.

The passengers are still traveling at 11 feet per second relative to the street unless there is some force to restrain them (seat belts, hand holds, seat friction). Seat friction is negligible, they were not seat belted and there is no indication of the passengers restraining themselves. JFK of course, is incapacitated and unable to do so.

The position of each passenger relative to a fixed position in the limo (such as the seat in front of them) is:

S = 11*t  + 0.5*25*t^2 

Where t is time in seconds since applying the brakes.

If the distance to the back of the seat in front of the passengers is assumed to be 5 feet, the passengers will be stopped by impact in about 0.35 seconds.

Nobody reports this happening or having to restrain against a sudden braking, let alone recalling a complete stop.

The braking time would be the initial velocity divided by the deceleration rate

11 (feet/s) / 25 (feet/s^2) = 0.44 s

this all seems a little nuts to me - look at the Nix and look at Zapruder - the limo clearly slows but doesn't stop, and if it seems difficult to see in the Z film, it's because it is in closeup - you need the perspective of Nix. As for whether it came to complete stop - well it did not - but have you ever witnessed a shooting like this? I have, and time freezes, things really do move in strange, sometimes slow-motion ways; people on the knoll only had to see the limo slow down dramatically to think it stopped. It's the nature of the beast, the way witnessing something so shocking hits the brain. I am amazed that no one ever seems to point this out. It's obvious, even if you have never witnessed such a thing.

AllenLowe wrote:this all seems a little nuts to me - look at the Nix and look at Zapruder - the limo clearly slows but doesn't stop, and if it seems difficult to see in the Z film, it's because it is in closeup - you need the perspective of Nix. As for whether it came to complete stop - well it did not - but have you ever witnessed a shooting like this? I have, and time freezes, things really do move in strange, sometimes slow-motion ways; people on the knoll only had to see the limo slow down dramatically to think it stopped. It's the nature of the beast, the way witnessing something so shocking hits the brain. I am amazed that no one ever seems to point this out. It's obvious, even if you have never witnessed such a thing.

You are correct. In stressful situations the brain’s clock speeds up slowing the perception of time much like speeding up the frame rate of a movie camera will result in slow motion when projected at normal speed.

The alterationists also claim that the Nix and other films were also altered.

I can’t rule out that a frame or two were removed but what the limo stopped alterationists would require is at least a second or two of frames removed/altered.

I am astonished that the several PhD. physicists supporting the limo stop have not considered the basic equations of motion and addressed them.

If you don't think Zapruder was altered what do you make of Doug Horne's 2011 interview of Dino Brugioni?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_QIuu6hsAc.
 
Late Saturday night at the CIA lab, Brugioni prepared 2 sets of briefing boards of key frames of what he thought (as do I) was the original Zapruder film.   At 3 AM Sunday morning the film was taken by the Secret Service agents who had brought the film to him, before the briefing boards were even finished, and flown to the CIA lab at Hawkeye Works in Rochester.
   
I suggest the purpose of Brugioni's boards was not to brief McCone, as the story goes, but to identify and eliminate parts of the film that showed shots from the front. As much as possible, given the technology at the time.  Thus the crude blackening of the back of Kennedy's head where a frontal shot exited.  Horne estimates they had about 12 hours to work on the film at Hawkeye Works that Sunday before it was flown back to DC.
 
There were at least three alterations. 1.  The turn on to Elm Street was deleted. I don't know why.  Wild speculation: Perhaps it showed evidence of an early shot from the Dal-Tex building or the book depository which would blow the WR story out of the water.
 
2.The car *did* slow down from an already slow pace, or completely stop briefly. I doubt if it matters which.  I've seen photos that showed its back brake light lit.  The slow down or stop was eliminated from Zapruder.  If you've ever been to Dealey Plaza, the shot front behind the picket fence or somewhere close by was easy.  But a stationary target or close to it, turned an easy shot into a virtual certainty.  Killing a sitting president requires virtual certainty of success.
 
3. Most important, Brugioni is adamant that the single frame in the extant film of the fatal head shot is not what he saw that night.  He said the image of the shot lasted several frames in the original film, in which a spray of blood, tissue, and bone shot several feet in the air. Brugioni's view is consistent with Josiah Thompson argument in Last Second that there were at least two bullets that crashed into JFK's head within a faction of a second of each other (Thompson estimates 3/4 of a second, or about 13-14 frames) .
 
The altered film was flown back to the CIA in DC where another team created a second set of briefing boards from it Sunday night. No one told Brugioni about this, even though he was CIA duty officer that whole weekend. No one told the second team about Brugioni's work.  Needless to say Brugion's boards never saw the light of day.  The boards from the altered film are what survives today at the Archives.
 
One more thing.  I don't think I've ever seen a more credible witness than Brugioni.

1) Doug Horne is an idiot who believes in body alteration.
2) Zapruder matches up with all the other films which would be impossible unless all were altered at the same time -
3) Think about it - then why the F did they not just lose the Zapruder film? Watch it - it is OBVIOUS that the shots came from the front; they did a pretty effin' crappy job of alteration - because this film was a game changer, proving extra gunmen. It makes no sense for them to mess with it and then return it with the proof of a conspiracy. How diabolical; they were thinking "well, we don't know if anyone is ever going to see this, so we might as well change it to prove we are lying, just in case it ever gets out, just so the idiots can claim it was altered, which will further muddy the waters and complete the coverup."  Ingenious.

Roger, I think Horne is correct about the Z-film and/or a copy being examined independently and compartmentalized on November 23 (by Dino Brugioni) and on November 24 (by Homer McMahon) at the National Photo Interpretation Center.

1. None of those that watched the Z-film in Dallas gave any indication of seeing anything to suggest whether the assassination was the result of a single or multiple shooters. Some alterationists suggest that Zapruder switched camera speed to get part of the motorcade in slow motion. The film was played back at normal speed and none of the viewers in Dallas noted any indication of slow motion footage. Nobody else except Dan Rather claimed to see JFK “move violently forward”.

2. On the night of November 23, Dino Brugioni’s crew examined the original Z-film or a first generation copy. There is no indication that this examination suggested multiple shooters, at least Brugioni did not suggest this in his interview with Douglas Horne.

3. Regarding Brugioni’s recollection of the head shot, remember he was recalling what he remembered seeing in the original or first generation copy several decades previously with extant films that are probably a result of several generations of copies. The shock of initially seeing the results of the head shot might also give it particular vividness.

4. I suspect that the film that Homer McMahon’s team examined the following evening was likely another government agency wanting its own copy of the film out of bureaucratic interest.

5. The Kodak “Hawkeyworks” plant in Rochester NY did not deal with 8mm color film but worked with larger format black and white film because of greater contrast and faster processing speed required for aerial and satellite reconnaissance photography. Color film for space reconnaissance was just getting under development and would not be deployed for a year or two. They certainly didn’t have the need to modify 8mm color film by painting frames. They would have had to have “drafted” someone from the commercial side of the house and go through a pain in the ass security clearance literally overnight. These normally take weeks if not months.

6. Neither Doug Horne’s Hollywood connections nor any other alterationist has actually demonstrated just how you would modify an 8mm color film of an action sequence and have it not look “off”. I’m not a photo expert so I can’t say it is impossible but until a researcher actually does it, it is just speculation. I think it would be far easier to fake the backyard photos yet as far as I know, no researcher has done a similar actual demonstration with those.

7. Speaking of the backyard photos, Brugioni is convinced (Brugioni, Dino “Photo Fakery” Chapter 5: Spotting Fakes) they have not been faked.

8. Regarding the brake light, go through a parking lot full of cars on a bright sunny day. Depending on how the sunlight hits the red plastic casings, some look like they have the brakes activated even though the cars are parked and the engine is not running. You would have to see a movie that shows the change in the brake light and even then you have to be sure it’s not just a change in lighting. There are some films of the motorcade which clearly show the warning blinkers flashing but many of these are in shadow making the lighting conditions constant.

My suspicion is that even after Oswald was in custody, high officials in the federal government believed in the possibility in a conspiracy and were probably deeply concerned about it being of Soviet or Cuban origin and the potential implications. I think they wanted to be able to rule that out as soon as possible. I think that is also why a pre-autopsy was likely to have occurred at Bethesda, hence the shell game with the ambulance.

LM:  Roger, I think Horne is correct about the Z-film and/or a copy being examined independently and compartmentalized on November 23 (by Dino Brugioni) and on November 24 (by Homer McMahon) at the National Photo Interpretation Center.
 
RO: If you accept as fact that 2 briefing boards were done separately--each unbeknownst to the other--you must answer the logical questions that follow as to why that was done.
 
*  Why was the film flown to Hawkeye Works at 3 AM Sunday morning as Bruglioni was finishing his work?  Hawkeye Works was then secret CIA lab at the Kodak plant in Rochester.  You say that lab didn't work on 8MM color film.  And it's true as Bruglioni mentions in the clip, they did a lot of work on reconnaissance material like from  the U2 flights.  But neither you nor I can know the full scope of the work done there.  It seems clear, however, that your assertion is wrong.  Why else would the film be sent there on an emergency basis if not to work on it during the 12 hour window that Horne calculates they had?  Brugioni, btw, claims Hawkeye Works was the best film lab in the world at the time.  When he found out the film he worked on was sent there, he didn't claim that couldn't have been because they don't do that work there.
 
*  Why was a second set of boards created from the film that was returned to the CIA on Sunday?  Brugioni says his boss was full of praise for the job he had done on his boards.
 
*  Brugioni was the duty officer that whole weekend. Why wasn't he told about the second set of boards at that time, or ever.  He first found out about them from Peter Janney in 2009.  Horne's interview in 2011 followed that up. Near the end of the clip with Horne, after bringing up his puzzlement about being kept in the dark, Brugioni finally seems to get it. If they were up to no good, he believes they knew he wouldn't be willing to go along with it.  Yep.
 
*  What happened to Brugioni's boards?  The redone boards that match the extant Zapruder film are the ones now in the Archives.  Brugioni tells us what happened.  In the 70's when the JFKA was reopened, Brugioni mentioned to his boss at the time that he still had a copy of the boards he did.  The boss was exasperated.  What the hell are you doing with that? Get rid of them (translation:  you dumbass, don't you know what we did with the Zapruder film?). Brugioni sent them to the CIA Director's office.  They knew what to do with them. 
 
A few loose ends.  Brugioni didn't speculate about shooters.  He just told the part of the story he knew.  It was my speculation that his description of the head wound was likely more consistent with at least two bullets hitting the head close together than by a single shot. It's a minor point.
 
As to Dan Rather's claim of forward head movement, I've watched what Horne said about it several times and still don't understand what he is talking about.
 
The tools available to alter the film in 1963 were crude by today's standards. But the Zapruder film was buried from public view for 12 years while the Warren Report fairytale took hold.  That, and control of the news media, has been good enough for the coverup to work so far.

Having argued that the Zapruder film was altered that weekend at the then secret Hawkeye Works lab, I should add that the alterations were, in an objective sense, largely unsuccessful in concealing shot(s) from the front. There was only so much they could do with the tools they had back then.
 
That was a primary reason that Life magazine went back to Zapruder that Sunday with an additional, more lucrative offer (another $50,000 I think) to buy all the rights to the film, including the right to show the full clip, instead of just publishing some selected frames in their magazine. Then they buried the film, never publicly showing it.
 
When a bootleg copy was shown by Geraldo Rivera on TV 12 years later Life's job was done.  According Horne, they immediately sold all the rights back to Zapruder for $1, revealing, for anyone who cared to look, what their job was in the coverup.  They got nothing for the money they gave Zapruder in their second offer except the satisfaction of helping with the coverup.  CD Jackson, publisher of Life magazine, was a CIA asset.  
 
The reasons for altering the parts of the film showing the limo slowing down or briefly stopping to set up the crossfire, and the depiction of the head shot(s) seem obvious, but what about deleting the turn on to Elm Street?  What did the original film show there that made them want to delete it?  Was there evidence of a shot from the TBD or the Dal-Tex building?  Logical, tho probably not likely, but we may never know.
 
The burying of the film served its purpose while the WC fairytale took hold. But the collective gasp later when JFK was shown to fall back and to the left in Zapruder, helped provide the impetus for the Congressional hearings of the 70s.  The results of which, however middling, were essentially buried by the Justice Dept when they refused to investigate further.  Then Stone's movie in '91 explaining that relevant files on the murder were to be withheld until 2038 caused the JFK Act in '92. Which now Biden is trying to abandon by his "transparency plan".
 
But I sense the flow of evidence on multiple fronts that can destroy the WR is picking up speed barely two months before the 60th anniversary.  
 
Let me list a few things off the top of my head. 
 
*Prayerman, both Bart's book and the MFF lawsuit seeking the release of the Darnell and Wiegman films.
 
*Josiah Thompson's "the Last Second" of last year attempting to prove there were actually at least 5 shots, and from where.
 
* The Landis story that that seems to have punctured a hole in the gatekeeper's gate for the moment.
 
* A slew of presentations at the JFKA meeting Nov 15-17 at Duquesne University. Not only Greg's talk about Oswald, but also these:
 
     # Converging evidence for 2 headshots, JoThompson, Gary Aguilar, Doug DeSalle, and Bill Simpich
     # Audio Forensic analysis of the JFKA, Donald Maue
     # Talk by Paul Landis
     # Forensic reactions to historical Revelations,  Landis, Cyril Wecht
     # Unmasking the Rockefeller Commission medical panel, Russell Kent
     # 2 brain examinations following the JFKA, Doug Horne
 
Interesting times may be straight ahead.

Roger, I’m reviewing the Horne interview with Dino Brugioni as well as his AARB interview with Homer McMahon. I’m also reviewing the history and capabilities of the Kodak “Bridgehead” facility which was where the classified works was done in the building known as “Hawkeyeworks”.

So my response might take a couple of days.

I read the interviews Horne did with McMahon and his helper, Hunter, yesterday. They did the photo blowups on Sunday but the boards were prepared by someone else, including new notes added by those other folks.

The thing that jumps out at me was at the beginning of the job in determining which frames to enlarge, McMahon thought JFK was hit 6-8 times from at least three directions. The secret service agent who brought the film from Rochester and apparently was running things ignored him, he says.  The idea of 3 shots from the rear was to be used.

It seems the second job on Sunday was more tightly controlled. The first job done by Dino was to lay out what actually happened in order to help determine what they wanted the second set of boards to show.

Here is a link to a compilation of the ARRB's interaction (mostly by Doug Horne) with Homer McMahon and Ben Hunter concerning their work on the Zapruder film on Nov 24,1963.  https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10336-10024.pdf.
 
McMahon and Hunter did not make up the boards. They only enlarged selected frames to be pasted on to it. In fact the Secret Service agent who brought the film from Rochester essentially chose the frames to convey 3 shots from behind scenario, overriding McMahon who thought JFK was hit 6-8 times from at least three directions.  Where did McMahon get that idea?  
 
Someone else then finished the job.  At that time (probably at least into December) someone added more pictures  and accompanying notes to the boards.  The extant boards and notes were turned over to NARA in 1993. 
 

The fact that Life had the rights to the film and kept it hidden for twelve years means the CIA had ample opportunity to continue to work on the film beyond the 10-12 hours they had it at Hawkeye Works that weekend.  Small clue:  Hunter says there were "2 or 3" frames showing the head explosion in the film he worked on (towards Dino's characterization of several frames in the film he saw) while the extant film shows only one frame.

Roger Odisio wrote:Here is a link to a compilation of the ARRB's interaction (mostly by Doug Horne) with Homer McMahon and Ben Hunter concerning their work on the Zapruder film on Nov 24,1963.  https://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10336-10024.pdf.
 
McMahon and Hunter did not make up the boards. They only enlarged selected frames to be pasted on to it. In fact the Secret Service agent who brought the film from Rochester essentially chose the frames to convey 3 shots from behind scenario, overriding McMahon who thought JFK was hit 6-8 times from at least three directions.  Where did McMahon get that idea?  
 
Someone else then finished the job.  At that time (probably at least into December) someone added more pictures  and accompanying notes to the boards.  The extant boards and notes were turned over to NARA in 1993. 
 

The fact that Life had the rights to the film and kept it hidden for twelve years means the CIA had ample opportunity to continue to work on the film beyond the 10-12 hours they had it at Hawkeye Works that weekend.  Small clue:  Hunter says there were "2 or 3" frames showing the head explosion in the film he worked on (towards Dino's characterization of several frames in the film he saw) while the extant film shows only one frame.

Thanks Roger! That’s a more comprehensive source than what I have been reading.

While you're contemplating, LMan, I thought I'd offer a fuller, perhaps clearer, picture for you and others to shoot at. When I refer to Life magazine read CIA.  Publisher CD Jackson was a long time CIA asset.
 
The day after the murder, Life won the bidding contest for partial rights to the original Zapruder film.  The story goes that the film was flown to the Life headquarters in Chicago that weekend so they could begin work on some frames for their next issue. 
 
That didn't happen.  The film was diverted to the CIA photo lab in DC where Dino Brugioni took several key frames, enlarged them, and pasting them on two sets of briefing boards. 
 
The purpose was to clearly establish what the film showed.  Particularly how many shots and where they came from.   
 
The frame of Oswald as the lone assassin shooting from behind was already underway. They needed to know to what extent Zapruder contradicted their story.
 
Before Dino was finished making up the boards early Sunday morning, the film was flown to the then secret CIA lab, Hawkeye Works at the Kodak plant in Rochester. They wanted to remove all evidence of a shot from the front.  
 
While they were working on the film, Oswald was murdered, removing a major impediment to their lone assassin story.  As Bart has explained in detail, they had no case against Oswald that could withstand scrutiny, and of course they knew it. 
 
At Hawkeye Works, they made a few changes to the film.  They removed the depiction of the turn on to Elm Street.  They eliminated the frames showing the limo slowing down or briefly stopping to set up the fatal shot(s).  They crudely blackened the back of JFK's head to try to conceal the massive exit wound there.  Most of all they tried to clean up the depiction of the catastrophic head shot(s). 
 
The altered film was returned to the CIA lab in DC on Sunday where a second set of briefing boards and notes were made. This time the work was tightly controlled by the "secret service agent" who brought back the film. For example, Homer McMahon, the putative head of the second project, thought there were 6-8 shots from at least three directions. He was ignored. The purpose of the second set of boards was to show, as much as possible, that there were three shots from behind JFK.
 
But they realized the alterations they were able to do weren't enough to conceal evidence of shot(s) from the front if people could see the film.  So Life went back to Zapruder on Sunday to offer him more money for all the rights to the film, including the right to show the full clip.
 
Life then buried the film, never showing it.
 
The final copy of Brugioni's boards was destroyed in the 70s when he let slip to his then boss that he had kept them.  The second set of boards and notes from the altered film made that Sunday were given to NARA in 1993.
 
When Geraldo Rivera showed a bootleg copy of the film on national TV in 1975, Life's coverup was done.  They "sold" the film back to Zapruder for $1, clearly showing what their concealment role was.
 

Well before that, the Oswald story had taken hold.

Roger, have you ever come across a transcript of the ARRB interview of Ben Hunter? I’ve found a transcript of an interview with Homer McMahon but unsuccessful regarding Hunter.

Thanks.

How about this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uKABlsQqy4V44AgMWIdDS7Nq0IfuCcU9/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zgkhSRysn1668WKB7-CsirOBx3gHJpp2/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uiBam9tWTDd--eapQg049a2SyDghgudn/view?usp=drivesdk

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

barto wrote:How about this?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uKABlsQqy4V44AgMWIdDS7Nq0IfuCcU9/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zgkhSRysn1668WKB7-CsirOBx3gHJpp2/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uiBam9tWTDd--eapQg049a2SyDghgudn/view?usp=drivesdk

Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.

You are THE man!

Thanks for this Bart.  Much of this is from the Black Vault I linked to yesterday, but the piece by David Mantic is new to me.
 
Mantic goes into detail about the major changes he believes were made in the original Zapruder film. Besides (1) the turn onto Elm St, (2) the limo slowing or stopping (3) the altered movement of JFK's head, including the contraction of two head shots into one that I mentioned, he adds (1) the disappearance from the limo trunk of tissue debris, (2) loss of Connelly's left turn, and (3) disappearance of blood on Connolly's shirt front.
 
There will be a session at the symposium at Duquesne U., Nov 15-17 that should be interesting:  "Converging lines of evidence in the case for two head shots", presented by Josiah Thompson, Doug DeSalles, Gary Aguilar, and Bill Simpich.  Thompson's latest book, Last Second in Dallas, makes the case, mainly through acoustical evidence, for there having been 5 shots, 2 of which struck JFK's head. One from the front and one from the back.
 
I'm starting to think evaluation of the Zapruder film, what was done to it and why belongs alongside Darnell and Wiegman as vehicles for the destruction of the Warren Report.
 
The circumstances under which the two sets of briefing boards were made at the CIA lab that weekend were very different and the difference explains a lot.  Before making the first set, Brugioni and his crew viewed the film, which he believed was the original, several times. Then they chose which frames to make prints of for the boards.
 
As I said, I believe that the purpose of the boards was *not*, as was claimed, to  show CIA director McCone and the Secret Service what had happened.  Rumor:  At one point McCone told RFK the board analysis showed there was more than one shooter.
 
Rather, the real purpose of the boards was to make as clear a record as possible about what happened. The framing of Oswald was already underway.  The framers needed to know to what extent the film contradicted their story.
 
After the alteration work was done at Hawkeye Works, the idea for the second set of boards was to create ones that, as much as possible (there was only so much they could do), would verify the story of three shots from behind.  McMahon and Hunter were not in charge of this work, "Bill Smith" the "Secret Service" man who brought the film back from Rochester decided what frames of the altered version were used.  When McMahon suggested there were 6-8shots from at least 3 directions, he says "Smith" ignored him. 
 
According to Hunter, he and McMahon made prints of only 8 frames that night.  Twenty frames and more work notes were later by others.
 

LMan, apparently Doug Horne and crew talked by phone and in person with McMahon and Hunter 3 times each. But only the second meeting with McMahon was taped. Hunter's full name is Morgan Bennett Hunter.  Where did you find a transcript of McMahon?

Dino Brugioni

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lHcu3vo8CG0s54DyINZk75OmR7bgkv5J/view?usp=drivesdk

Homer McMahon

CIA
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G-UIED1D-VJ5oHTmqFcfQt_jjlBazV_0/view?usp=drivesdk


ARRB Ben Hunter
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uKABlsQqy4V44AgMWIdDS7Nq0IfuCcU9/view?usp=drivesdk




Thanks to Malcolm Blunt.
Scans by me.

I found this transcript of an ARRB in person interview of Homer McMahon conducted in 1998 (Doug Horne is the principal interviewer and transcriber). Unlike the focused, articulate Brugioni seen in the interview conducted in 2011 by Doug Horne that you can watch on Youtube, McMahon was hard for me to follow. He admits he was not a photo analyst  but then later claims he is. He claims to see up to 8 shots in the supposedly modified Z-film he worked with. Towards the end of the interview (page 18), he admits that he is suffering from “senile dementia” and is “a recovering drug addict and alcoholic”. I don’t know how one would point this out without compounding McMahon’s personal struggles, but I think it is relevant to McMahon’s credibility and Doug Horne should have addressed it. This is why I am so interested in seeing a similar transcript of the interview with Morgan “Ben” Hunter who assisted McMahon. The site where I obtained the McMahon interview does not have a Hunter interview.

The fact that Hunter admitted his memory of the event was “extremely fuzzy” and that McMahon’s memory was “probably far better” does not inspire confidence in when the second Z-film was viewed at NPIC or what exactly was done.



https://dickatlee.com/issues/assassinations/jfk/homer_mcmahon_transcript_reformat.pdf

Apparently none of the Hunter interviews was taped, tho I suspect Horne's written summary of his interaction with Hunter was pretty thorough.  Only the one interview of McMahon was taped.
 
Given what we know, I don't think this is much of a problem.  
 
After viewing the film several times, Dino picked the frames to be enlarged, made  two sets of boards, and provided notes about what he did. The framing of Oswald had already begun and they needed a clear record of exactly the extent to which Zapruder contradicted their story.  So they could try to alter the film.
 
Dino's boards were later destroyed 
 
After Zapruder was altered at Hawkeye Works, the frames for inclusion in the second set of boards were picked by "Bill Smith" the "Secret Service agent".  Over his objection, McMahon said.  McMahon says he thought there were 6-8 shots from at least 3 directions (and this was even after the alterations).
But he concluded "you can't fight city hall". 
 
"Smith" was only interesting is showing 3 shots from behind,
 
McMahon and Hunter enlarged some frames.  Hunter thought they did 8 frames.  McMahon guessed it was somewhere between 20 and 40.  There are 28 frames in the extant boards now at NARA.  But of that 28 McMahon says some they did are missing and some are included they didn't do.  Some of the accompanying notes were done by someone else.
 
Iow, McMahon and Hunter were minor functionaries in the process.  


Someone else came after them and added and subtracted frames and wrote additional notes. It was all under the direction "Smith" whose sole purpose was the create boards that would, as much as possible, back up the Oswald story.
 
But they realized the boards weren't going to be enough if people could see the actual film, even after the alterations they made. There was only so much alteration they could do back then.  That very Sunday, Life went back to Zapruder and bought the full rights to the film, including the exclusive right to show the complete film to the public. 
 
Then Life buried it, never showing it.  


When a bootleg copy was shown 12 years later on TV by Geraldo Rivera, Life's coverup was finished. They sold the rights back to Zapruder for $1, verifying their role in the coverup.
 
There is an interesting passage in the McMahon interview that I don't think has gotten as much attention as some of the other things. The extant Zapruder film begins with motorcycles leading the motorcade turning on to Elm Street.  There is a gap, then we seen the car with JFK proceeding down Elm.  Zapruder said he never stopped shooting once he had started. The turn on to Elm was obviously removed during alteration. Why?
 
The first frame in McMahon's board is numbered 188.  After the turn on to Elm. So Horn asked McMahon:  Is it your recollection that there may have been other frames prior to 188 (in his initial presentation)?

McMahon: Yeah---where, where there was some action of some sort." 
 
The story is that then limo driver had some problems making the sharp turn on to Elm. That doesn't seem to be a reason for the sequence to be entirely deleted. Was there another reason?  
 
If, e.g., there was evidence of a shot at the time--when JFK was right in front  of both the TBD and the Dal-Tex building, making shots much easier from there than down Elm Street with the limo moving away--that, by itself, would destroy the Oswald story.