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Brian says...Sat 30 Dec 2023, 4:33 pmEd.Ledoux
last drinks before the bar closesSat 30 Dec 2023, 2:46 pmTony Krome
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Prayer Man with a rounded collar.

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barto
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sandylarsen
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Thu 26 Oct 2023, 8:36 pm
First topic message reminder :

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Darnell-new-frame-cropped

I first saw this a few years ago and thought it was an image altered by someone in Duncan's crowd to poke fun at those who support Prayer Man as a man. Note the feminine collar.

But yesterday a guy name Alan Ford posted it on EF (here) and said that Bart Kamp published it "a while back." Then he claimed that a James Hackerott had predicted years earlier that the neckline on PM would prove to be a problem for Prayer Man supporters. (He had seen the copy of Darnell frames at the Sixth Floor Museum.)

What do you guys think about this?

Ed.Ledoux
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 1:57 am
I would defer to William Allen,

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Downlo11
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Ed.Ledoux
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 2:46 am
Traffic barricades were moved to block off sidewalk.

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Downlo13
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Screen31
barto
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 3:31 am
"Photo Experts" at the JFK Assassination & Education forums..........................


Last edited by barto on Tue 31 Oct 2023, 2:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Chris_Davidson
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 6:03 am
Chris_Davidson wrote:
alex_wilson wrote:

Plus (and I'm not questioning Chris's ethics or motives) ive lost whatever meagre respect I had for Davidson's photographic ability. Whatever talent he may once have possessed,  imho he's pissed it all away,  wasting his time on frivolous alterationist bullshit -anyone in the mood for looking at a gif of a bush?. Or how about 30+ pages of equations that would make even Mr Noseybonk's bonk of a nose do cartwheels across the paisley patterned psychedelic sky....

I find Chris Davidson's work highly unconvincing. Sometimes I get the impression he himself has no real idea of what exactly it is he's attempting to " prove "  I just don't think he possesses unparalleled skills and a savant like insight,  enabling him to illustrate and illuminate that which has remained occluded for 60 years. 

Once you start meddling with an image then , imho , it looses whatever forensic value it may once have possessed. 

I'm sorry,  until and unless he provides his data and until his images have been successfully reproduced, I'm highly dubious. How come he and he alone can conjure up images that fly in the face of 60 years worth of photographs,  with well established , traceable provenance. 

Did you miss the running woman's shadow under the mailbox or the paper bag? swaying.
Sometimes there is nothing to prove.
Were these frames scaled, stabilized and contrasted to bring forth a better viewing experience?
Was the existing scenario somehow altered after these changes were implemented?
You might think long and hard about questioning someone's abilities when you haven't a clue as to what is being presented.
So the image in Wiegman(which I brought forth from the shadows) and pointed out to Sean some 16 years ago is a figment of everyone's imagination because I used a shadow contrast filter to lighten that area. lol
Maybe someone else can explain to you what is in the Bell frames and its importance if that's your reference to bushes.
It's obvious you have no clue as to how an equation would be implemented to alter a film, but believe me, sooner rather than later, you'll be finding out.
It's called "thinking outside of the box"
So question whatever you desire about my work, but since you're pretty much clueless to what is being presented, I take your disposition with a grain of salt.
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 S8KPw
You can refer to Sean's email if you don't understand what I've been pointing out in Bell.
Unfortunately, it took about 15 years from his email to obtain a decent enough Bell copy to support it.
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 S8Niu
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 11:31 am
Chris_Davidson wrote:
alex_wilson wrote:

Plus (and I'm not questioning Chris's ethics or motives) ive lost whatever meagre respect I had for Davidson's photographic ability. Whatever talent he may once have possessed,  imho he's pissed it all away,  wasting his time on frivolous alterationist bullshit -anyone in the mood for looking at a gif of a bush?. Or how about 30+ pages of equations that would make even Mr Noseybonk's bonk of a nose do cartwheels across the paisley patterned psychedelic sky....

I find Chris Davidson's work highly unconvincing. Sometimes I get the impression he himself has no real idea of what exactly it is he's attempting to " prove "  I just don't think he possesses unparalleled skills and a savant like insight,  enabling him to illustrate and illuminate that which has remained occluded for 60 years. 

Once you start meddling with an image then , imho , it looses whatever forensic value it may once have possessed. 

I'm sorry,  until and unless he provides his data and until his images have been successfully reproduced, I'm highly dubious. How come he and he alone can conjure up images that fly in the face of 60 years worth of photographs,  with well established , traceable provenance. 

Did you miss the running woman's shadow under the mailbox or the paper bag? swaying.
Sometimes there is nothing to prove.
Were these frames scaled, stabilized and contrasted to bring forth a better viewing experience?
Was the existing scenario somehow altered after these changes were implemented?
You might think long and hard about questioning someone's abilities when you haven't a clue as to what is being presented.
So the image in Wiegman(which I brought forth from the shadows) and pointed out to Sean some 16 years ago is a figment of everyone's imagination because I used a shadow contrast filter to lighten that area. lol
Maybe someone else can explain to you what is in the Bell frames and its importance if that's your reference to bushes.
It's obvious you have no clue as to how an equation would be implemented to alter a film, but believe me, sooner rather than later, you'll be finding out.
It's called "thinking outside of the box"
So question whatever you desire about my work, but since you're pretty much clueless to what is being presented, I take your disposition with a grain of salt.
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 S8KPw
If people do not have a clue what you are talking about, that is on you for talking in riddles, technical jargon, and all generally mixed with what looks like pure mumbo jumbo. 

If you want mere mortals to understand and follow what you are saying, then start communicating without all of that. Or simply confine your postings to like minded forums where they can at least pretend to understand. 

Until you find that attitude adjusting app, go and fuck yourself.
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 1:24 pm
How dangerous can a bush be? Chris was right....deadly

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Checkmate.

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Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Empty Excellent eye, Ed! And who is Toni Glover waving at? Looks like PM waved at her!

Sat 28 Oct 2023, 2:18 pm
Ed.Ledoux wrote:Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Oswald10

I see Oswald's T-shirt and its bright white collar,,, which I assume was even less distorted and shall I say "round" before the cops roughed him up and his clothing.

Billy Lovelady gif, enlarge on your screen and Watch as Billy leans out as Limo rounds the corner placing right hand over his eyes peering out at the limo. He drops his hand, and then leans back, turns to his right and then his head turns to the right and behind him twice, as if speaking to someone behind him and then back to front. Billy was either looking back at or conversing with PM.
TSBD entrance

https://gifyu.com/image/S8sXM
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Tsbden10

Besides that Billy moved.
Billy not just moved a bit... Billy moved to the other side of the railing,,, between time the limo passes the entrance and Weigman filmed, Billy moved from shaded side of railing to sunny side, or from left side of the entrance past PM up around the railing and over to the right side. He is now next to the ladies.

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Weig3_11
There are then two documented instances where Billy had either interacted with or went by PM.
That or Billy jumped the railing which no one mentioned.

Good Luck Mr. Ford
Cheers, Ed
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sandylarsen
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 6:38 pm
alex_wilson wrote:
Armstrong knows I certainly ain't no photo analyst , but the frame just looks so phoney. Where has Prayerman's white T shirt/ undershirt gone? It's visible in all the other frames/ stills- bar this one.

...

Whatever talent [Chris] may once have possessed,  imho he's pissed it all away,  [Chris Davidson] wasting his time on frivolous alterationist bullshit -anyone in the mood for looking at a gif of a bush?.


You can declare a photo to be altered, but Chris and others can't? A bit hypocritical, don't you think Alex?

(I think I feel more anti-Larsen "humor" coming on in the debunked board.  Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 1f60b )
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 8:33 pm
sandylarsen wrote:
alex_wilson wrote:
Armstrong knows I certainly ain't no photo analyst , but the frame just looks so phoney. Where has Prayerman's white T shirt/ undershirt gone? It's visible in all the other frames/ stills- bar this one.

...

Whatever talent [Chris] may once have possessed,  imho he's pissed it all away,  [Chris Davidson] wasting his time on frivolous alterationist bullshit -anyone in the mood for looking at a gif of a bush?.


You can declare a photo to be altered, but Chris and others can't? A bit hypocritical, don't you think Alex?

(I think I feel more anti-Larsen "humor" coming on in the debunked board.  Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 1f60b )

Alex has clearly stated many times he is no photo expert. A non-expert eyeballing a photo and offering a throwaway opinion on it is a far cry from declaring fakery based on voodoo math re the z film. Especially since what is being posted was not possible in 1963. Go to the most  expensive Hollywood blockbuster from 1963 and check out the special effects.

So no. Your attempt at equivalence on which to hang a charge of hypocrisy fails.

And I don't believe the humor is anti-larsen.  It is anti faulty logic and conspiracy-think.. anything said about you personally is just a piss-take. I think you'll find he actually thinks you're a decent person.
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Sat 28 Oct 2023, 9:08 pm
Chris_Davidson wrote:Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 S8Niu



It's good to know that Sean Murphy agrees with me, that Lovelady's left arm is really Carl Jones's raised right arm and hand. Now if I could only convince Andrej.
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Sun 29 Oct 2023, 9:06 am
I am bored with CTers, even more with 'em than the LNers.
They know absolutely nothing about photography, they do not understand film types, processing, lighting, generational loss and so on. Not one iota they get.

Now then, is this a round neckline then?
Answers on postcard please you dumb ignorant fucks.

Perhaps they should dig Oswald up again.....see if it is Harriet or Lillian.

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Last edited by barto on Tue 31 Oct 2023, 2:15 am; edited 2 times in total

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Sun 29 Oct 2023, 8:41 pm
They are grasping at straws. They just want Prayer Man to go away. The deniers will latch on to anything no matter how ridiculous.

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 12:33 am
Mr. Ford has changed his mind. on one aspect of his recent claims I am not going to belittle him for that. It is something not to be discouraged.

But he does need to reflect on what it may mean for other of his claims. 

Up until the change of heart, Mr. Ford looked at this image 

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Womanp11

And divined from it that it depicts a female who has rushed to the scene to inspect a long paper sack dumped there by Lee Oswald and that this sack is the one and the same sack now in the archives.

His replacement claim is that it is a male - specifically Bill Shelley. 

  1. The person is not Shelley
  2. It is not an established fact that the object is a paper sack, let alone THE paper sack


The area and the people in it have no significance to the investigation whatsoever save anything they saw and heard as the motorcade passed.

Mr. Ford is equally mistaken about the PM figure who if the claims were true, must have almost thrown his shoulder out. so vigorously was he waving his flag in patriotic delight. 

This is so egregious a depiction of the real life Oswald, I  am sincerely lost for words. 

He might do this playing a role, but he would not be very convincing. 

This is the guy who was in trouble as a kid for not saluting the flag at school. This is the guy who was uncomfortable in social situations. This is the guy you couldn't get so much as a "boo" out of even if you gave him the role of Casper the Ghost.

The launch of this latest campaign to derail the PM train has imploded just when its comedic elements were starting to shine through.


Last edited by greg_parker on Mon 30 Oct 2023, 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 1:20 am
greg_parker wrote:Mr. Ford has changed his mind. on one aspect of his recent claims I am not going to belittle him for that. It is something not to be discouraged.

But he does need to reflect on what it may mean for other of his claims. 

Up until the change of heart, Mr. Ford looked at this image 

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Womanp11

And divined from it that it depicts a female who has rushed to the scene to inspect a long paper sack dumped there by Lee Oswald and that this sack is the one and the same sack now in the archives.

His replacement claim is that it is a male - specifically Bill Shelley. 

  1. The person is not Shelley
  2. It is not an established fact that the object is a paper sack, let alone THE paper sack


The area and the people in it have no significance to the investigation whatsoever save anything they saw and heard as the motorcade passed.

Mr. Ford is equally mistaken about the PM figure who if the claims were true, must have almost thrown his shoulder out. so vigorously was he waving his flag in patriotic delight. 

This is so egregious a depiction of the real life Oswald, I  am sincerely lost for words. 

He might do this playing a role, but he would not be very convincing. 

This is the guy who was in trouble as a kid for not saluting the flag at school. This is the guy who was uncomfortable in social situations. This is the guy you couldn't get so much as a "boo" out of even if you gave him the role of Casper the Ghost.

The launch of this latest campaign to derail the PM train has imploded just when its comedic element were starting to shine through.

All true. Oswald aggressively waving a flag at JFK also kinda kills the idea that he slipped out on the steps unnoticed, does it not? 

I think Ford’s theory that Lovelady in Hughes is actually Oswald is kinda interesting though just for the facts that PM also appears to be taking a sip from a drink in Weigman, and Lovelady is clearly visible in that film. If it could somehow be demonstrated that the figures in Hughes and Weigman are identical that’s basically game over, so it’s a reasonable line of inquiry at least. The guy in Hughes looks too much like Lovelady though, and more than one person could have brought a drink outside, so meh.

I do think the alleged sack is intriguing, and worthy of an explanation, but Ford’s conclusions are so disproportionate with the quality of the images that he’s damaging his own case. Bill Shelly? Really?
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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 5:23 am
He's polluting whole discussion. An age old tactic that really thrives on the internet. Now when all the newbies come round on the 60th, they'll have a poo poo platter to feast on till they get sick of that sh*t.

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 8:30 am
The following clips are taken from this video. https://youtu.be/-2CH8shbEXg
AF rejected the idea of curing blankets and construction debris. More eggy face for Mr. F.

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Slide1

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Slide2

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Slide3

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Slide4

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 11:03 am
Yep. My old man was a concreter. The lighter paving indicates brand new work. Everything else you said is also true. I watched my old man do all that when I went to work with him during school vacation, thanks, Jake.

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 11:24 am
Great stuff Jake. Now that we have a blanket like that on film, in basically the exact same location, I see zero reason to believe that it’s not the same object in Darnell. I bet strings, etc. or even just a loose piece of fabric are the thing twirling in the wind on the end.
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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 11:29 am
So are we all agreed that Bill Shelley was not drawing attention to an enormous bag that Oswald brought containing a Cuban flag and curtain rods to wave it with?

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Checkmate.

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 12:09 pm
JFK_FNG wrote:Great stuff Jake. Now that we have a blanket like that on film, in basically the exact same location, I see zero reason to believe that it’s not the same object in Darnell. I bet strings, etc. or even just a loose piece of fabric are the thing twirling in the wind on the end.
All is not lost for those with a plank in their eye. 

All they have to do is one more pivot - this time from paper bag to another objet du cadre, the rifle-encasing blanket. 

What Jake shows us is that the cops picked up the blanket and took it to the Paine garage in time for it to be "found". That was in fact, the reason for the delay as they waited outside the Irving ranchette. Had nothing to do with waiting for local cops. They were waiting for the blanky. 

We now need to embrace this and drop all else. It is the sane and proper thing to do.

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 12:40 pm
Thank you all. Or as Lawrence Welk used to say, "Thank you boyz-a."

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 1:44 pm
Once again I defer to William Allen.
Here are close ups of Elm Ext pavement and Elm Ext Sidewalk. (due to "misfiring" camera)
Neither appear to be in new condition or freshly layed.
Could one section have been poured on 20-21st as part of curb and gutter or sidewalk repair not readily visible... sure, of course.

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Zombod83

I looked at weather for 21st, it was cool but well above the 55° threshhold for needing curing blankets. About the same for 20th -14th (7 days)

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Screen32

But it did have light rain, a possible reason for protecting fresh crete. Tarp to avoid pock marks in fresh pours?

Long before I sold, stocked and used concrete blankets, they were made of burlap. Burlap retains moisture, and adds some minor thermal barrier.
Modern world uses reflective, foam filled, poly "padded" blankets.

Is the guy carring a burlap blanket or a coat?

Cheers, Ed
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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 1:51 pm
Here is the little sign with light atop it.
Probably a no loading zone marker(?)

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Zombom40

Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Zombom42

Barricade on end of Houston.
Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Zombom41

Possibly DPD officers (Smith) moved the two from the middle, of four, across Houston and moved them to block Elm Ext...?

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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 1:53 pm
Little yellow sign....

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Prayer Man with a rounded collar. - Page 2 Screen42
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Mon 30 Oct 2023, 1:55 pm
steely_dan wrote:So are we all agreed that Bill Shelley was not drawing attention to an enormous bag that Oswald brought containing a Cuban flag and curtain rods to wave it with?
 
His hiding place for the flag was the very reason he was standing in the theatre when approached by Big Macca. 

It was also the real reason he complained about not being allowed to shower. He needed to get some soap, pronto. Damn thing was getting painful. 

It was in situ at the first autopsy but missing at the second, thus proving it was Harvey and not Lee (or Lee and not Harvey) in that grave!

so................! it is proven that Sarah was really Pauline and Lovelady was a hunchback. Now............! If you move your pawn en passant, you can capture the opponents pawn but...............! only if he is a flag-waving Communista who has recently discarded his security blanky.........!

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"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
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