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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty A Marriage of Connivance?

Thu 15 Oct 2009, 8:45 pm
GRIBBLE & KIRSCH
On April 28, 1961, two American exchange students from Moscow University walked into the US Embassy and announced their intention to marry Soviet women.

The names of the students were Charles Gribble and Leonard Kirsch.

Officials at the Embassy tried, unsuccessfully, to talk them out of this course of action, and immediately notified the State Department of the situation via telegram. State in turn contacted Professor Robert Byrnes, head of the Inter-University [Student Exchange] Selection Committee.[1] Byrnes, a "former CIA officer", was known for his strict moralistic views and obsession with security. No-one with a leftist or promiscuous background need apply.[2] Leonard Kirsch had been "guilty" on both counts. A working class rake from Pittsburgh, Leonard, as well as his father, were the subject of files pertaining to labor union involvement. His application, initially rejected by Byrne's committee, was eventually accepted, but only after the vocal intervention of his Harvard professors.[3]

States reply to the Embassy included Byrnes' assessment that he could not "overemphasize concern and desire for Gribble and Kirsch reconsider matter in terms their whole future life and happiness. Committee strongly hopes students would seriously reconsider, particularly in view (a) difficulty and possible inability for wives obtain exit permits (what would students do if wives cannot leave?) (b) fact emotions may mislead one in strained emotional and physical environment such as experienced by exchange students in U.S.S.R. (Is this time and place to make such important life-long decision?) (c) possible motivations of girls other than or in addition to normal feelings of love including possible desire find means of leaving U.S.S.R. or possible police control of girls (d) possibility for police pressures and dangers to families of girls who remain in U.S.S.R. and through them on girls and ultimately on their husbands." State agreed, and recommended that the Embassy should continue "serious efforts" to discourage the marriages.[4] On May 4, Ambassador Thompson spoke personally with Gribble and Kirsch.

Gribble agreed to postponing his wedding for at least a year. Kirsch however, would not have his plans put off.[5]

THE KIRSCH WEDDING
Leonard Kirsch married a sensitive young woman named Elena Anisimova Knyazkina.[6] She was a specialist in Portuguese literature whose father had fought with the White army against the Bolsheviks.[7] The ceremony was held in the ornate Palace of Marriages the same day that permission was granted and the marriage license issued; May 17.

Marriages in the Palace were held at an assembly line pace; about a half hour allotted to one after another, inclusive of a reception.[8] This particular reception, notwithstanding the country of origin of the groom, was unremarkable, except for one thing: the presence of someone dressed in a stylish suit, cut too well to be of Soviet origin. Moreover, he was not recognizable to the Best Man; fellow exchange student, Loren Graham or his wife, Pat.

Curious as to his identity, the Grahams walked over and struck up a conversation with him. During the course of the conversation, they learned he was an official from the US Embassy; that the embassy "wanted to know about all marriages between US and Soviet citizens, since frequently they led to diplomatic negotiations about place of residence", adding that "this was the second marriage between an American man and a Soviet woman he'd attended". He named this other American as Oswald, and that the wedding had taken place in Minsk. The Grahams would recall the Oswald name after the assassination of JFK, but apart from that, placed no meaning on the conversation with the official. Not drawn by the controversies stirred up over the years regarding the 35th President's untimely demise,  the possible significance of what they had been told remained far from their minds; far from apparent.

That situation would change, if only to a degree, in 1982.[9]

PRISCILLA JOHNSON McMILLAN                 
It was after chairing a seminar at Harvard in the spring of '82 that Loren Graham found himself beside Priscilla Johnson McMillan. Knowing she was the biographer of Marina Oswald, and trying to make what he thought was just small talk, he recounted the story of meeting an Embassy official at a Moscow wedding reception, and how the official had told them of his attendance at the Oswald wedding. Though McMillan's strong response could have been accurately forecast by anyone who has studied this case, to Graham, her questioning his memory of it was entirely unexpected. He nevertheless assured her he was certain of what he'd been told, and the circumstances in which the conversation had taken place. McMillan replied that she hoped the "believers in conspiracy never get hold of this", explaining that there had been speculation about Oswald meeting with American officials while in the USSR, but that the Warren Commission, based on what it had learned from government personnel, had concluded nothing of the sort had taken place. For good measure, she added that Marina had said nothing of any Embassy official being at her wedding.[10]  

THE OSWALD WEDDING
Lee and Marina were married in Minsk on April 30, 1961. The records show that the embassy did not know of this until receiving a letter from Oswald on May 25.[11] If Oswald was only considered to be a confused young man who had tried to defect, then knowledge of a pending marriage should have elicited the same response made in the cases of Gribble and Kirsch; a concerted effort to disuade him. In fact, his case would have been seen as an even more urgent one, given that (a) his citizenship status was complicated (according to the embassy, at any rate) and (b) he had already commenced steps toward returning to the US. What would not happen is the charade of only finding out about the marriage almost a month later, in what was merely an aside in a letter from Oswald about being repatriated. If the US Embassy knew of the wedding all along, and covered up this knowledge, it points to the marriage being made not in Heaven, but in the corridors and ante-rooms of at least one, if not both superpowers.

POSTSCRIPT
Professor Loren Graham was contracted prior to the writing of this article, but was unable to recall any details above and beyond what is contained in his book. Leonard Kirsch returned to live in the US after his wife was issued an exit visa in 1962. He died suddenly of a heart attack in 1977, age 42.

Attempts are now being made to find out if a guest registry was made at the Oswald wedding, and if so, where a copy might be found.

ENDNOTES
[1] Department of State, Central Files, 511.613/5-261. Confidential; Priority. Drafted by Martens (EUR/SES) and approved by SOV, OEE and Siscoe (EUR/SES).

[2] Moscow Stories by Loren R Graham, p218.

[3] Id. p 217.

[4] Department of State, Central Files, 511.613/5-261. Confidential; Priority. Drafted by Martens (EUR/SES) and approved by SOV, OEE and Siscoe (EUR/SES).

[5] Ibid

[6] Warren Commission Exhibit 2756.

[7] Moscow Stories by Loren R Graham, p 47.

[8] Id. P 49.

[9] Id. 50 - 51. The Best Man in Soviet ceremonies was actually known as the First Witness. The mention of concern over marriages and possible disputes over country of residency adds credence to Graham's account - for this was one of the main issues Nixon placed on the table in his meetings with Kruschev in '59.

[10] Ibid. That evening, Graham asked his wife what she recalled of the conversation. Her memory matched his. Asked if it might be possible that the official had only said he'd heard of the Oswald wedding, Pat Graham conceded it was barely possible, but that she really had no doubt he said he'd attended. In fact, since the embassy claimed not to have known about the Oswald wedding until 8 days after the Grahams met this official, the only other way they could have known prior to that would be through contact agents in the Soviet bureaucracy - which seems unlikely - and at the very least - still amounts to a cover-up for reasons unknown.

[11] Warren Commission Exhibit 252.


Last edited by greg parker on Fri 23 Sep 2016, 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Sat 22 Jun 2013, 11:32 am
Some time ago, another researcher told me that Malcolm Blunt - renowned as someone immersed in the archival records - had found "traces" of a CIA program to have agents marry KGB lassies and bring 'em home. He said this program was code-named "REDWOOD".

I looked into REDWOOD and couldn't confirm it had anything to do with marrying KGB agents at all, so I let it go. I was right. It didn't have anything to do with it -- but I'll get to that later.

Recently and by accident, I came across this quote: "Oswald was sent to USSR and married soviet girl under CIA instructions" from a book called Peculiar Liaisons: In War, Espionage, And Terrorism Of The Twentieth Century (p 202) by John S Craig. This allegedly came from a CIA memo from Dec, 1963 based on what a Soviet Consul General allegedly said to a CIA agent. Craig cites Russell's The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992 version, p 21) as his source. 

I then confirmed the cite in Russell's book.

By now, I was in my usual state of puzzlement. Couldn't work out why this information wasn't more prominent.

But then I found the CIA report.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=27332&relPageId=2

What it basically says is that the Consul General merely said that Oswald went to the USSR and married a Soviet girl. The bit about doing it on behalf of the CIA - according to the CIA - was added to the quote by a journalist at Blitz - which is an Indian liberal newspaper. 

REDWOOD is mentioned in the document only because it was an intelligence gathering/transmitting operation. 

But the key question is: did the journalist really add the stuff about the CIA? Blitz - according to the CIA and right-leaning sources - was a tool of the KGB. 

But then a different picture emerges when you look into the journalist (who was actually also the founder of Blitz)Russi Karanjia.

This obit says he was "Frank, free and fearless". If it was the only source, I might be a little dubious -- but it's not.
http://www.arabnews.com/russi-karanjia-frank-free-and-fearless

Here is his wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russi_Karanjia

According to this... Blitz "sent bullshitters cowering". Which is a really good epitaph to have...
http://archive.tehelka.com/story_main37.asp?filename=hub160208Russi_Karanjia.asp
 
More sources
http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/story.php?storyid=2916&pg=1&mod=1§ionId=10

And a hope too, for those who sought to take on the wrongdoers. A whistle blower, a peoples' cop. That was his image in our hearts.
http://ia.rediff.com/news/2008/feb/02russi.htm


Plenty more, but you get the picture... you can also locate the accusations of being a KGB stooge through google.

So was the Blitz article accurate? I still can't say...

On the other side of the coin, there were/are those who claim Oswald could have married Marina at the request of the KGB.

Hosty and others for instance, have cited the case of James Mintkenbaugh (who had been recruited to spy for the KGB by Robert Lee Johnson). According to Hosty, when Minkenbaugh came home from the USSR in '59 and was arrested for spying, he told the FBI that the KGB had asked him to marry a young Soviet woman to take back to the States with him when he left.. However, he refused and returned alone.

The similarities between Minkenbaugh and Oswald are inevitably cited. What is never stated is the one big difference. Minkenbaugh was a KNOWN KGB spy. There is no real evidence suggesting LHO was - let alone it being a fact.

Back to the original question: true love, KGB,CIA or joint mission?

-------------------

as a sidebar -- many of the Russian women in Dallas in 1963 were divorced or separated. Maybe the stress of assimilation, or...?

Some of those were also young and had young kids. The records do show a number of sightings of a young Russian speaking woman with one or two kids in tow, presumed to be Marina...

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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Thu 31 Oct 2013, 7:24 am
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Fri 23 Sep 2016, 9:27 pm
With Much gratitude to Phil Hopely for sending me the book, Moscow Stories.

Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Mocows10

Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Mocows10Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow10
Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow12
Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow10Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow13
Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow13Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Moscow11

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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Fri 23 Sep 2016, 9:52 pm
Boiled down, here are the important facts:

1. The US Embassy denied any knowledge of Oswald's wedding until he mentioned it after the fact in a letter.
2. Prof. Graham and his wife are certain they were told otherwise by an Embassy official at another wedding. In fact, the official claimed to have attended Oswald's wedding.
3. Prof. Graham is about as disinterested a party as you can get. That adds much credibility to his story.
4. Priscilla Johnson MacMillan otoh, is a very interested party and her reaction to Prof. Graham's story is very telling. 
5. The experiences of Lennie and Lena can easily be contrasted and compared to that of Lee and Marina.
6. This is possibly the most important point of all: Lennie had to invoke the help of Eleanor Roosevelt and Nina Khrushchev.  That worked because according to Graham, the answer was an automatic NEGATIVE - UNLESS THERE WAS A PUSH FROM THE TOP.

Who pushed from the top for Lee and and Marina?

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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty russian penal code

Tue 23 Jul 2019, 6:20 pm
When reading the Soviet Criminal Code( it's an appendix in a Russian version of Solzhenitsyns Gulag Archipelago) i discovered in the 1946/7 revision they added a clause t Article 58( you could get yourself 10 wonderful years in sunny Solovetski for "excessively praising American Democracy") that made it illegal t have a relationship with a foreigner.
Although after Stalin's death and the subsequent thaw( however by 1959 a hardline reaction had set in) the atmosphere wasn't quite as febrile and the rate of arrests had slackened considerably it would still have been utterly taboo t marry an American.
Everyone I've spoken to about this always emphasises this point. And when i talk about "everyone" i mean recognised experts in Soviet society/ culture.
It's inconceivable Marina could have met and married Lee " innocently". It just wasn't possible.
Taking her rather unconventional background and family into consideration it rises t a near certainty that she was operating in an official or semi official capacity.
My best guess is as a honey trap. Webster, the Afghani ambassador, Oswald himself and who knows who else..hobnobbing in Moscow and Leningrad at diplomatic functions... this 19 year old supposed pharmacist.
Forget it.
Honey traps were a well established and often utilised Soviet intelligence technique.
And they were successful. The top agent of the period, a cipher sergeant at the embassy was ensnared by his housekeeper who turned out t b a colonel in the KGB.
I don't know if this is the right thread or not but i think it's a near certainty that Marina( Uncle Ilya incidentally served as head of the Belorussian timber commissiriat, since Yezhovs days the overall Chief of water and timber was also head of the NKVD NKGB MVD KGB) was operating in an official capacity when she met Oswald.
An American defector in 1950s Minsk would have been placed in politically reliable circles. Soviet methods were subtle. You have t remember Stalin's mini Terror( the Doctors Plot etc) was only 6 years ago at the time.
So much of the stuff I've read about Oswalds Soviet sojourn was written by people who obviously had no conception of how Soviet society actually operated.
I nearly smashed my fucking monitor when i read Trejo saying that Minsk in 59 was the equivalent of Haight Ashbury in the summer of 67.
If Brian had been around back then his shambling peculiarly aromatic presence would have made the hippy chicks ACT like it waa Minsk in 1959..
Brian Doyle- the walking talking human chastity belt..

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Tue 23 Jul 2019, 8:28 pm
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-----------------------------
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:19 pm
Thanks Greg for moving my post t the appropriate thread.
If we combine your excellent research on Red skin/ Redsox etc with a proper appraisal of Marinas true role we could finally reveal Oswald true status t the deniers, naysayers, the true believers and the anti ROKC activists. ( Certain personages would say Oswald shot JFK rather than admitting ROKC got it right)
I think both Marina and Lee were expendable low level assets caught up in subterranean Cold War machinations( sounds like a Dylan lyric)
Marinas " mission" may not necessarily have had nefarious purposes.
Like Lee she may have been used by the "dove" factor. People supporting the Khrushchev/ Furtseva thaw. This would tie in with your "Oswald as courier" hypothesis.
You have t remember Khrushchev only came t power relatively recently and thanks t a military supported coup. It was no less a personage than Marshal Zhukov who arrested Beria. With military support he managed t out maneuver Malenkov and Beria and t a lesser extent Molotov
His secret speech triggered a backlash from the hardliners that culminated in his removal by Brezhnev in 64.
I think Lee and Marina albeit at an extremely low level( and probably unwittingly) were pawns in this power struggle.
This arguably was the hottest period of the Cold War with the military hardliners on both sides fighting against leaders who sought t diffuse the tension.
Khrushchevs first letter t JFK, written at his dacha on the Black Sea is revelatory in this regard.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was hardline elements " above cosmetic Cold War differences", t paraphrase GM Evica who engineered the assassination AND Khrushchevs subsequent removal.
The parallels are uncanny..in the US we had LBJ Vietnam Nixon Watergate culminating in Team B and Reagan..while in the USSR we had Brezhnev the rise of Andropov and the KGB( Bush and Andropov two ex Intelligence chiefs who ascended t power) the economic stagnation caused by increased military spending culminating in Afghanistan..the Soviet Vietnam.
The parallels may not be exact but they are eerily suggestive.
Armstrong and the orthodox conspiracy narrative of Oswald in the Soviet Union is wild eyed psuedo Bondian claptrap.
IMHO we should seriously pursue this angle. Oswald the low grade operative would be placed in a carefully controlled environment. It makes perfect sense a young attractive woman is dispatched. Pillow talk has been the downfall of many an agent. I think Lee and Marina gives us an insight into the ground floor maneuverings at an extremely fluid time.
Soviet society was in flux. Many interested parties were vying for greater control. Remember this is all happening within a decade of Stalin's death.
If Stalin hadn't died the Soviet Union would have been plunged into another terror. The campaign against "rootless cosmopolitans"( jews) was ramping up( for example a famous Jewish actor Solomon Mikhoels, whod ironically enough performed King Lear for Iosif Vissarionovich at the Kremlin was hacked t death in the back of a truck by KGB thugs and dumped in the street). The barracks were already built for the expected waves of Jewish deportees. Molotovs own wife Polina who was Jewish was in the Lubyanka awaiting execution at the time of Stalin's death.
Oswalds time in the USSR may not be directly involved with the assassination but if we discover his true milieu..who controlled him who he thought he was working for etc it might reveal some of the plotters.
I'm certain Lee and Marina moved in the subterranean levels of the intelligence community. They were footsoldiers..employed t do the dirtiest of dirty work.
As soon as i get some time i plan t research this angle thoroughly.
Thanks again Greg for moving my post and bumping it. I've read quite a bit about Soviet era politics( in my very shaky Russian for alas I'm no JVBesque polymath who could translate Soviet scientific journals after a few night classes at a community college(!)) and your work/ hypotheses made the most sense.
I'll find out anything i can about Keenan and give you an email.
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Tue 23 Jul 2019, 9:59 pm
Wow. Great research. Looking forward to reading more about Lee's life in the Soviet Union.

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Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:42 am
I have always wondered what her mission was in the U S and how much Lee was supportive of it.

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Thu 25 Jul 2019, 2:11 pm
To speculate (sorry in advance!) I feel like the question of why Marina was attached to LHO by the KGB is much simpler than it's been portrayed. I think it was a cold war tit-for-tat.

When LHO defected the Soviets were confronted with someone who clearly was not genuine, who was part of some game the US was playing. They knew this and rather than bust him as law enforcement would have done, they allowed him to do what he was going to do in the USSR-- watching him like a hawk the whole time. Maybe he knew very little about why he'd been sent there. Maybe he never actually did anything of any significance in the USSR-- a frustrating thing for those monitoring him. They could never prove he was a spy, because he was inert, he wasted their time.

And when eventually his game was done and he wanted to go home, the Soviets deviously decided to do to the Americans the exact same thing that had been done to them. LHO would not be allowed to leave without a retort by the Soviets. They sent the US someone who practically screamed "KGB" to those who were in the business of looking for spies. Clearly Marina was not what she claimed to be, but could the US government prove it? (Moreover, did they want to?) Like Oswald in Russia she didn't ever do anything. But like her husband she looked fishy as could be. She could be just the thing to drive the Americans nuts-- a sleeper agent that, as fate would have it, never woke up.

In that sense, I think she and Lee were a perfect pair.
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Thu 25 Jul 2019, 5:42 pm
rogerhucek wrote:To speculate (sorry in advance!) I feel like the question of why Marina was attached to LHO by the KGB is much simpler than it's been portrayed. I think it was a cold war tit-for-tat.

When LHO defected the Soviets were confronted with someone who clearly was not genuine, who was part of some game the US was playing. They knew this and rather than bust him as law enforcement would have done, they allowed him to do what he was going to do in the USSR-- watching him like a hawk the whole time. Maybe he knew very little about why he'd been sent there. Maybe he never actually did anything of any significance in the USSR-- a frustrating thing for those monitoring him. They could never prove he was a spy, because he was inert, he wasted their time.

And when eventually his game was done and he wanted to go home, the Soviets deviously decided to do to the Americans the exact same thing that had been done to them. LHO would not be allowed to leave without a retort by the Soviets. They sent the US someone who practically screamed "KGB" to those who were in the business of looking for spies. Clearly Marina was not what she claimed to be, but could the US government prove it? (Moreover, did they want to?) Like Oswald in Russia she didn't ever do anything. But like her husband she looked fishy as could be. She could be just the thing to drive the Americans nuts-- a sleeper agent that, as fate would have it, never woke up.

In that sense, I think she and Lee were a perfect pair.
As speculation goes Roger, I've heard worse.

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Thu 25 Jul 2019, 8:11 pm
Hope she will write a book explaining everything one day.

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Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:36 pm
greg parker wrote:
rogerhucek wrote:To speculate (sorry in advance!) I feel like the question of why Marina was attached to LHO by the KGB is much simpler than it's been portrayed. I think it was a cold war tit-for-tat.

When LHO defected the Soviets were confronted with someone who clearly was not genuine, who was part of some game the US was playing. They knew this and rather than bust him as law enforcement would have done, they allowed him to do what he was going to do in the USSR-- watching him like a hawk the whole time. Maybe he knew very little about why he'd been sent there. Maybe he never actually did anything of any significance in the USSR-- a frustrating thing for those monitoring him. They could never prove he was a spy, because he was inert, he wasted their time.

And when eventually his game was done and he wanted to go home, the Soviets deviously decided to do to the Americans the exact same thing that had been done to them. LHO would not be allowed to leave without a retort by the Soviets. They sent the US someone who practically screamed "KGB" to those who were in the business of looking for spies. Clearly Marina was not what she claimed to be, but could the US government prove it? (Moreover, did they want to?) Like Oswald in Russia she didn't ever do anything. But like her husband she looked fishy as could be. She could be just the thing to drive the Americans nuts-- a sleeper agent that, as fate would have it, never woke up.

In that sense, I think she and Lee were a perfect pair.
As speculation goes Roger, I've heard worse.

Agreed. That by far is the most sensible interpretation I have seen.

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Fri 26 Jul 2019, 7:58 am
Lets speculate Lee was a spy, low level, etc. Do we believe he had some sort of tradecraft training? If according to Roger's theory (sensible theory to boot) and the Russians couldn't prove he was a spy, etc, could that be as a result of Lee utilizing good tradecraft and not getting openly caught? I'm certainly not implying or saying Lee was "James Bond" as many seem to do but that he certainly did as he was told and, according to this speculation of mine, what he was taught. Just musing and what better place to do it than here.
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Fri 26 Jul 2019, 8:43 am
BC_II wrote:Lets speculate Lee was a spy, low level, etc. Do we believe he had some sort of tradecraft training? If according to Roger's theory (sensible theory to boot) and the Russians couldn't prove he was a spy, etc, could that be as a result of Lee utilizing good tradecraft and not getting openly caught? I'm certainly not implying or saying Lee was "James Bond" as many seem to do but that he certainly did as he was told and, according to this speculation of mine, what he was taught. Just musing and what better place to do it than here.
Brent, the Korean War POW situation caused the military to do a lot of reevaluating regarding training. This training centered on reinforcing American values and way of life, and training in escape and evasion and in resistance in interrogations.  New recruits also now had to sign a loyalty certificate.

From LHOCW:

QUOTE ON
On October 24, 1956, Oswald signed the Loyalty Certificate for Personnel of the Armed Forces.

The number one provision of this certificate read

The Department of Defense has the authority to establish procedures
implementing the national policy relating to loyalty of persons entering
on duty with the Armed Forces. This has been determined by proper
authority to include restrictions as to certain standards of conduct and
membership in, or sympathetic association with, certain organizations.”


Which brings us back to Lee’s letter to the Socialist Party requesting
information on the YPSL. As explained in Part One, the YPSL had been booted from the Socialist Party for getting too friendly with the enemy – the Socialist Youth League.

As a result, the two youth groups united to form the Young Socialist League (YSL).

The YSL (effectively the new name for the YPSL) was listed on the Loyalty Certificate as one of the groups designated by the Attorney General as a subversive organization. This means not only was Lee making an inquiry with the Socialist Party which would make them suspect a provocation, he was now signing a legal certificate denying any membership of, association with, or sympathy for such an organization. It was unequivocal. Inquiring about becoming a member would be seen as being simpatico.

Unless of course, it was a provocation.

Section 3 (a) of Executive Order 10450 stated that the scope of investigating a potential or current employee (including armed services personnel) in no event “shall include less than a national agency check (including a check of the fingerprint files of the Federal Bureau of Investigation), and written inquiries to appropriate local law enforcement agencies, former employers and supervisors, references, and schools attended by the person under investigation.”

Any inquiries to schools attended by Oswald in New York City should have uncovered his truancy and worse – his refusal to salute the flag. Even if the school system, under siege from communist witch hunts,
failed to equate the flag saluting refusals with a lack of loyalty to Uncle Sam, it is hard to envisage the USMC being quite so understanding. 

The letter to the SP is more problematic. Authorities had no legal reason to open it cold, and no legitimate excuse to do so on suspicion.
The USMC records show that an FBI check was done. But the only other action taken was an interview with Oswald himself - consisting of a “tick and flick”. The security check on Oswald not only fell short of mandatory requirements, it was insufficient for the purpose under which it was conducted.

If some do not see the real Lee Harvey Oswald, it may well be because he is obscured by the herd of elephants populating the extant records, or else he is lost in the Fortean Seas of fertile imagination and furtive agendas.
QUOTE OFF

Lee had come from NYC, a place rife with commie witch hunts, including one in which his older brother participated, back to New Orleans and into CAP which had it's own secret anti-subversion programs, including training in Russian - which could only mean missions overseas. It is on record that one of Ferrie's recruits into such a program, was used as an inter-continental courier by Ferrie.

And it was a courier, Lee would be trained.

Again from the book:

QUOTE ON

Gerald F Tujague, Inc
Gerald F Tujague, Inc is a familiar name in JFK assassination lore – though very little has been written of its history. The company – a freight forwarding business, commenced operations on August 2, 1923 as A.E. Hegewisch, Inc. 

The founder, Adolfo Hegewisch, was born in 1878 at Veracruz, Mexico to wealthy parents of German descent. He grew up well-traveled and well-connected and fought in the war for Cuba’s independence before his 20th birthday. His life of adventure and intrigue did not end there. Hegewisch made numerous trips to Mexico during the revolution, and was a supporter of Adolfo de la Huerta’s attempted revolt against
President Álvaro Obregón. 

Hegewisch settled in New Orleans sometime around 1917, opening up a branch of the family freight business six years prior to striking out on his own. It is possible the decision to stay however was predicated on his support of de la Huerta. In any event, from that time, he acted as de la Huerta’s US representative.

New Orleans remained Hegewisch’s home city throughout the rest of his life and he spent the next 30 years building his business to a preeminence among the city’s freight-forwarding companies while also promoting New Orleans as a port city. The end of WWII saw him become a co-founder and second president of New Orleans
International House (IH) – a sister organization to New York IH which had opened in 1925 following recommendations from the YMCA. The idea behind IH was to facilitate the networking of elites in various countries and to provide accommodation for students who would be the next generation of corporate high-flyers. The YMCA, the Council on
Foreign Relations (CFR), the Institute of Pacific Relations (IPR) and IH all had supporters and members in common, with the epicenter of it being W. Cameron Forbes of United Fruit, John D Rockefeller, Jr., Bernard Buruch and Julius Rosenwald.  It can easily be inferred that IH served intelligence gathering or clandestine operational purposes; perhaps both. In addition to hosting students, Hegewisch hosted many
business leaders, government officials, presidents and dictators through IH.

If experience maketh the man, Adolfo Hegewisch had to be the ultimate expert on New Orleans wharves, shipping terminals and truck docks and warehouses. If you wanted to know what was coming in or going out of the city; if you needed to know the best and safest way to transport contraband or weapons, Adolfo would make the ideal man to approach. In fact, smuggling may have been another string to his bow. 

During WWI, Hegewisch had been investigated by the FBI on suspicion of smuggling goods to an embargoed Germany via Spain.

It almost goes without saying that politically, Hegewisch was a vociferous anticommunist and that post Cuban revolution, he was a leading anti-Castroite in New Orleans. By then, he had firm ties to Alton Oschner, William Gaudet and Clay Shaw, all of whom would later come under scrutiny regarding the JFK assassination.

One more aspect of Hegewisch’s background is also very telling. He was an early president of the CIA front, the Cordell Hull Foundation. Officially, the foundation was set up in 1951 in Nashville to offer programs designed to improve relations between the United States and other countries, primarily through educational and cultural exchanges, but it relocated to New Orleans in 1954 and made home base inside
IH. Underneath the glossy exterior, it funded dictators and anti-Communist operations in Latin America. Alton Oschner took over as president in 1956. The foundation’s contract with IH terminated in 1963. 

Hegewisch died of what was determined to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound on August 9, 1966. It was the day following his wife’s funeral. 

It was 13 years prior to his death that he handed the company over to 5 long-term employees. They were Gerald F Tujague, L. Thaller, Evelyn M Burt, Max Heinemann and Frank G. Di Benedetto. In 1955, Gerald F. Tujague took over the presidency and renamed the company Gerald F. Tujague, Inc. But another seminal moment for the company also occurred in 1955. On November 10 of that year, it hired a “runner” named Lee Harvey Oswald. It is this writer’s contention that young Lee‘s ability to deliver “goods” and messages around the ports to the various networks of agents, informants and assets was being tested and closely monitored. He would, by the end of the decade, be performing the same task on a much grander scale. How he obtained the position in the first place, was apparently something of a mystery. The FBI enquired of local employment agencies, all of whom checked and came back negative for any records pertaining to Oswald. However, it must be noted that Gerald Tujague, along with other local businessmen including Guy Banister, joined the Friends of Democratic Cuba at its inception on January 6, 1961. This was the fund-raising arm of the New Orleans branch of the Cuban Revolutionary Council (CRC) headed by Sergio Arcacha Smith. The CRC itself was put together by the CIA three weeks prior to the Bay of Pigs invasion and was meant to coordinate and direct the activities of the Cuban Democratic Revolutionary Front. So what we see here, is a CIA front made up of local anti-communist businessmen raising support and funds to form the CRC. That front included Gerald Tujague. The recipient was Sergio Arcacha Smith. Smith in turn, was on friendly terms with one, David Ferrie who as shown, was very likely Oswald’s recruiter into intelligence work. In short, though some of these relationships could not
have developed until the late 1950s or early 1960s, the networks in which these individuals moved, did exist then and did include Ferrie.

One way or the other, whatever services Adolfo Hegewisch, Inc had rendered to intelligence agencies, it continued under Tujague’s direction. 

JR Michels, Inc
Lee Oswald left Tujague’s employ on January 14, 1956. On January 17, 1956, he commenced work with the JR Michels Co. located in the same building. His work there consisted of running Export Declaration forms to the Customs Office for authentication. This task required that a file with photo be kept on Oswald in the Export Control Section of the Customs Office. This file however, was destroyed circa 1958. 

Oswald’s employment with Michels terminated after two weeks without any known reason. A two week employment term running paperwork to Customs of sufficient importance that a file had to be made and kept on the 16 year old, sounds pretty much like a two week training program.
QUOTE OFF

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Sat 27 Jul 2019, 5:28 pm
BC_II wrote:Lets speculate Lee was a spy, low level, etc. Do we believe he had some sort of tradecraft training? If according to Roger's theory (sensible theory to boot) and the Russians couldn't prove he was a spy, etc, could that be as a result of Lee utilizing good tradecraft and not getting openly caught? I'm certainly not implying or saying Lee was "James Bond" as many seem to do but that he certainly did as he was told and, according to this speculation of mine, what he was taught. Just musing and what better place to do it than here.

It very well could be that he had some training. Unless there wasn't much for him to do besides go-- which dovetails into what Bill Simpich has been saying about him being a marked card of some sort. In that case he wouldn't need to be James Bond or even Austin Powers. Or know anything that could be tortured out of him. It might help him stick to his story to be ignorant.

But LHO's about as difficult to truly figure out as any individual in history.

Marina is not. But she is a paradox. Her being a completely naive, random Soviet woman who happened to wind up in the US with Lee (after dating Webster etc.) seems highly unlikely to me. The question is: why would someone have so many tell-tale signs of being a KGB plant and then (as I believe all sides of the JFK debate would agree, a rarity) never do anything clandestine once she's in Texas? I've never even seen it alleged that she carried on any sort of active espionage. So why would the KGB send her?

That's why I've been wondering if her mission was either interrupted prematurely or didn't require much of her-- if her defection was part of someone else's game entirely, a pawn for a pawn, tit-for-tat.
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Sat 27 Jul 2019, 5:47 pm
To bring it back to the specific topic: what if Oswald married Marina in order to get out the USSR? What if marrying her was the key that unlocked the KGB's door and allowed him to leave?

Because, as I've speculated earlier, she was an analog to him, to frustrate the American government, rather than an active, witting, operational agent of the KGB.

And the Americans watched this happen, let Oswald and sketchy wife into the US as if everything was OK, spied on them, and continued the grand game rather than call foul.
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Sat 27 Jul 2019, 9:30 pm
Your speculations are pretty much spot on Roger. I'm certain Marina married Lee at the bequest of someone. A quid pro quo perhaps. With her family background, her unexplained 6 month absence and most importantly the fact that she could meet openly with foreigners. She just HAD t have been working for someone. It's just that simple. What exactly it was she was doing is still open t informed speculation.
She and Lee were in the trenches on the frontline of the Cold War.
I can't emphasise this enough ;associating with foreigners wasn't just a taboo it was a criminal offence.
Punishable by 10 years of corrective labour.
Not only the law but the memories of the Terrors would have made an ordinary Soviet citizen run at the merest sound of a foreign accent.
We ,who've never lived under a totalitarian dictatorship can't even begin t comprehend the levels of fear and paranoia that were endemic.( Read about Pavlik Morozov t see how the State tried t obliterate family live. The Party sought t control and politicize everything. From childhood on.)
The "organs" were everywhere. ANYONE- father mother lover spouse or sibling- could be an informer. Imagine not being able t trust anyone. This is only 1959 remember. Stalin's mini Terror is only 6 years ago. And the Stalinist apparatchiks are everywhere. Already the icy winds blowing from the Lubyanka are hardening the Thaw again..
The Stalinist era is still a very recent memory and despite this so called Thaw the security services still maintained a dread hand.
And how much worse in the imagination of a population terrorised and cowed by decades of arbitary arrests? I knew the grand niece of a Czech dissident who managed t escape via Finland, right up t his death in the early 2000s he couldn't sleep until dawn. Even decades later the memory of his arrest haunted him. This was the climate. It's totally inconceivable Marina could have met Oswald or Webster or whoever else unless she was working officially.
I agree completely Roger maybe whoever it was who was controlling Marina and Lee married them for a purpose. In Greg's( very viable) courier scenario the marriage may have been a quid pro quo. What about Marinas letters t the Soviet Embassy? And her relatives? Mentioning how Alik brought her books back from NYC.
The work you guys have done exposing the Neely St charade etc I think allows us an enigmatic glimpse behind the banal public facade. Minimum wage loser and his Russian wife. Something far deeper and subtler was going on behind the scenes. Both Lee and Marina were most probably hapless pawns. Unwitting and expendable.
In the Soviet Union millions and millons had fllowed through the sewage system( Solzhenitsyns term) of the GULag. Millions never returned. Ground t dust in the camps or shot in the Lubyanka basement( incidentally the torture and execution chambers became the a self service cafeteria under Andropov) Solzhenitsyns work was considered the acceptable face of GULag literaure by many of the subsequent zek authors. Kolyma Tales was considered the most authentic.
My mum once interpreted for a Baptist minister who had survived over 40 years in the camps. Solovetski, Vortuka, the Lena goldfields and he was involved in the uprising in 1953. I was only a kid when i met him back in the late 80s. He was released on compassionate grounds in 1985 or 86 and was allowed t emigrate. My mum was hired as his initial interpreter. I can still remember him. A tiny sparrow like man with a deep musical bass. He moved t Dorking and lived til he was nearly 100. Imagine 40 plus years in a fucking labour camp!! I wish I'd spoken t him about Marina!
But every ex Soviet citizen I did manage t speak to about this insists categorically and without hesitation that Marina MUST have been working officially.
And I've spoken to people on both sides: prisoners and ex Intelligence functionaries. Including an ex KGB colonel who escaped from Iran t Turkey just after the Khomeini revolution.
He came from a background similar t Marinas( his old man had worked for SMERSH. Indeed he knew both Abumakov and Ryumin..and only escaped by a miracle when they fell.
Marina probably didn't have a choice. A pretty young niece of an MVD colonel( Uncle Ilya had his own private phone, a luxury only enjoyed by the nomenklatura)..it was probably her chance t serve the Motherland..running around with Americans in 1959, marrying her lover and being allowed t emigrate.
I've read people who say emigration from the Soviet Union wasn't really too hard..that's just not true. Only highly trusted individuals were ever permitted abroad. Under any circumstances.
People forget how close the Great Patriotic War still was and how strongly it was imprinted on the Soviet psyche. The most modern industrialised regions were devastated( In Belorussia alone over 1000 small towns and villages were utterly destroyed) Anyone whod been abroad was suspect because they had seen how backward the Soviet Union really was.
Stalin and his successors weren't out for world domination, they wanted t build a cordon sanitaire t prevent another 1941 or 1812. That was THE KEY t Soviet Foreign Policy. They knew full well how far ahead America and the West was.
Remember the so called Missile Gap? In reality the Soviets had no more than five outdated rockets compared t the American arsenal of thousands.
WW2 guaranteed the survival of the Soviet Union in the short term but damned it t medium/long term destruction.
T understand ANY aspect of Soviet/ Russian culture you must first abandon Western preconceptions. I grew up amongst academics/ dissidents and i still struggle.
The Soviet mindset was completely alien. Inward fatalistic paranoid.
T understand Marina i think you have t see her through Russian eyes.
Every ex Soviet citizen I've spoken to stated categorically she was involved officially. Most probably as a honey trap at first. Then perhaps a sleeper. Find out who was watching who.
This was the seedy underbelly of the Cold War.
Marina and Lee were two outsiders utilised by a system they barely comprehended t perform tasks they only had the vaguest understanding of.
Read Marinas Warren Commission testimony. She's obviously someone accustomed t telling officials what they wanted t hear.
She knew the difference between TRUTH and truth.
As a child she would have had t thank Comrade Stalin for her glorious childhood, standing before his portrait in worn shoes and with an empty stomach.
Those on the inside saw clearest of all how empty the facade was.
It's a miracle the Soviet Union survived as long as it did and it did so thanks t American misperceptions and ineptitudes.
And to an excellent espionage system.
They kept the Cold War just hot enough. They dealt in provocations, psy war tactics..the great terrible Soviet bear his claws glistening and ready t strike..
Sorry for venturing off topic but i think, using Greg's work as a starting point, we need t completely re evaluate Marina and Lee's meeting, their time in the Soviet Union and how the people behind the scenes link t those behind the assassination.
I think Lee was hijacked. Taken over and manipulated. Perhaps a bona fide official mission was infiltrated and subverted by the plotters.
As soon as i have time I'm going t seriously delve into the Soviet angle. I honestly think ROKC has come closest t reconstructing the conspiracy narrative, both on a micro and a macro level.
I think we can safely start from the premise that both Marina and Lee were low grade operatives.
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Mon 29 Jul 2019, 12:27 pm
Let's look at the known knowns, the known possibles/probables, and known unknowns.

Marina 

KNOWNS
-Born 1941
-Raised by mother and step-father in northwest area of USSR
-Moved to Minsk at 16 to live with her uncle Ilya Prusakov, a colonel in the Soviet Ministry of Internal Affairs
-Studied Pharmacy
-Had dental work done in Dallas by a dentist associated with a CIA front. This was just prior to the thanksgiving reunion with Robert Oswald and John Pic in which Marina and Pic swapped medical terminologies and drug information in Pic's notebook. The notebook also included mileage from the AFB to Robert's place - something that is usually done for work-related travel so the cost can be claimed as a tax deduction.
-Was picked up by Ruth Paine twice in March of 1963 - first time coincided with the putative date the rifle was ordered - the second coincided with the putative date both the rifle and pistol were shipped.
-Marina had access to Oswald's PO Box the weapons were shipped to. She did not have access to subsequent boxes.
-FBI agent Hosty opened a file on Marina claiming it was because of the possibility she could be approached in order to spy for the USSR (if she was going to be approached by the KGB to spy in the US, surely this would be done done prior to her leaving her homeland?)

KNOWN POSSIBILITIES/PROBABILITIES
-Was "promiscuous" and used as a honey trap by KGB 
-May have met/dated Robert Webster 
-Was enlisted by Michail Platovsky - an NTS/CIA agent parachuted into Minsk and ordered to recruit "Morally loose elements" for espionage. Marina was recruited by Platovsky for honey traps
-Was ordered to pursue a relationship with Oswald by her uncle/KGB/Platovsky and marry him
-Lived at the Neely apartment with June, but not Lee - and had moved in in January

KNOWN UNKNOWNS
-The actual state of her teeth in the US
-Her actual ability with English in those early days in the US
 
Lee

KNOWNS
-Born 1939 in New Orleans
-Father deceased prior to Lee's birth
-Raised partially in orphanage, partially by aunt and others, but mostly in care of mother

-Had step father who was associated with future disgraced Navy Secretary Fred Korth
-Had half-brother who worked in the intelligence unit of the Coast Guard during the time Lee lived in New York with and later, near him.
-Had uncle by marriage named James Coker who was based in NYC who was very influential in the areas of agriculture and commodity exchanges. He also had a business partner named Joseph Himes who, like Fred Korth, was a General Dynamics board member
-Came under the influence of David Ferrie in New Orleans. Ferrie was running secret anti-communist/anti-subversion groups within the CAP squadron and used cadets as couriers
-Joined the Marines at 17 after writing a letter of inquiry to the Socialist Party (not listed as subversive by the Attorney General) but inquiring about it's youth arm which had joined with another youth group which was listed by the Attorney General.
-Requested work in aircraft maintenance - the same area of interest to a study conducted by Sylvia Hoke for the CIA and which was wound up just prior to Oswald enlisting. The specific maintenance in this study was for a precursor to the U2.

-After not doing all that well in the testing for aircraft maintenance, Oswald was switched to Aviation Electronics Operator.
-his only prior work experience had been as a stock boy - at which we was no good - and as a courier.
-He spent time in SEA including at a U2 base in Japan

-He got an early out from the Marines after applying to go to a small college in Switzerland named the Albert Schweitzer College. This college was closely associated with Percival Brundage - the head of Treasury under Ike. It was also supported heavily by outlier religions like the Theosophical Society. Schweitzer would later be claimed by the Theosophical Society as sharing their worldview. Schweitzer had been an Evangelical (work is currently being done on the influence of books by Evangelicals on young Oswald)
-2 days prior to Oswald receiving his passport, Richard Bissll issued a memo outlining increased focus on targeting programs at the USSR - this included REDCAP and REDSOX which were aligned with the NTS infiltration and exfiltration efforts and the securing of agents in place. It also included the legal travelers program known as REDSKIN.
-He traveled to the USSR via Helsinki - the only place at that time it was possible to obtain a quick visa. This had been made possible only via the influence of the CIA on the Russian Consular officer involved in issuing the visas. The information about quick visas was not known to the general public.
-Agent in place Popov was caught exchanging notes with US Embassy head of Security Russell Langelle. Langelle was in reality, CIA and was Popov's contact. In Germany Popov had supplied information that a KGB Colonel bragged about having full specs on the U2 spy plane, but since arriving back in Moscow from Germany, Popov's information had deteriorated. He was executed and Langelle was made Persona Non Grata. 

-CIA agent Ed Keenan was inside the embassy waiting to see Snyder when Oswald came in to denounce citizenship. Keenan would later be made Persona Non Grata for spying and was deported. At the 50th anniversary of the Davis Center, formerly the Harvard Russian Research Center, Keenan, during a speech, recalled his stay in Russia as being “tricky” with a “few little problems, like getting arrested and harassed. And you had to worry about the vulnerability of your sources.
-The REDSOX/REDCAP programmed incursions into the USSR ceased in late December 1960 - probably as a result of the capture of Plotovsky and one other agent. Oswald has a Jan 4 entry in his diary stating he is having second thoughts about staying. The following month, he advises the Embassy he wants to return to US
-Oswald was able to marry Marina and bring her back to the US. He was not charged with any offences, nor was it ever admitted by any agency that he was even debriefed. This is particularly odd since the US thirst for data coming from the USSR was almost insatiable. Regardless of how mundane some information may be to the ordinary citizen, it all had potential intelligence value. Oswald did however bring back an essay that he named "The Kollective" which included a great deal of detail about the factory where he worked and life in Minsk. The true meaning of this title, to my knowledge has never been discussed in any books on Oswald. Had it been understood, it would be much clearer that this essay was a piece of intelligence work. The Soviet Kollectiv was to ensue continuity of social structure and order through propaganda and surveillance. (See: The Komsosol Kollectiv as an Agency of Political Socialization by Jeffrey Hahn and Foreign Visitors in the Late Soviet Union, the KGB and the Limits of Surveillance by Alex Hazanov)
-Oswald would hook up with White Russian Solidarists/NTS types on his return to the US
-Someone used his name in Mexico City

KNOWN POSSIBILITIES/PROBABILITIES
-The mail he received in the Marines may not have been Communist in nature as claimed. He told one fellow Marine it was "White Russian" and this was supported by the description of the seal.
-He may have worked for/been used by the FBI on his return

KNOWN UNKNOWNS
-If he had any formal training in the Russian language (he did have some informal training while working at the Horizon Factory in Minsk to knock off some of the rough edges)
-The story behind the name "Hidell"
-The exact questions and answers during his interrogation


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 7:05 am; edited 3 times in total

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rogerhucek
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Mon 29 Jul 2019, 1:31 pm
These two jumped out at me:

"-Was picked up by Ruth Paine twice in March of 1963 - first time coincided with the putative date the rifle was ordered - the second coincided with the putative date both the rifle and pistol were shipped.
-Marina had access to Oswald's PO Box the weapons were shipped to. She did not have access to subsequent boxes."

Wow. I'd never thought about that before: Marina being active in the pre-framing of her husband. Do you think she did some sort of intelligence-related work while in the US? Or was Ruth Paine just using her presence as an excuse?

Would Marina be involved with the interstate mail ordering of weapons? Lee's movements seem to correspond with a series of investigations regarding right-wing subversion, threats to the president, and clandestine gun traffic-- all of which inter-relate-- but his wife's connection to such things (if any exist) is completely obscure to me.
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Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA? Empty Re: Oswald's marriage: true love or a mission for KGB or CIA?

Mon 29 Jul 2019, 2:28 pm
rogerhucek wrote:These two jumped out at me:

"-Was picked up by Ruth Paine twice in March of 1963 - first time coincided with the putative date the rifle was ordered - the second coincided with the putative date both the rifle and pistol were shipped.
-Marina had access to Oswald's PO Box the weapons were shipped to. She did not have access to subsequent boxes."

Wow. I'd never thought about that before: Marina being active in the pre-framing of her husband. Do you think she did some sort of intelligence-related work while in the US? Or was Ruth Paine just using her presence as an excuse?

Would Marina be involved with the interstate mail ordering of weapons? Lee's movements seem to correspond with a series of investigations regarding right-wing subversion, threats to the president, and clandestine gun traffic-- all of which inter-relate-- but his wife's connection to such things (if any exist) is completely obscure to me.
Mr. JENNER - As long as you have the letter I don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. She responded advising you of a change of address. There would be some delay, I gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. And this exchange of letters took place approximately when? 
Mrs. PAINE - It was early March some time. 
Mr. JENNER - 1963? 
Mrs. PAINE - I think her letter is postmarked the 8th of March. 
Mr. JENNER - 1963? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. 
Mr. JENNER - After that exchange of letters, did you see Marina Oswald? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes. 
Mr. JENNER - Did you go to her home or did she come to yours? 
Mrs. PAINE - I drove to her home. There would be no way for her to come. 
Mr. JENNER - Had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home? 
Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe so. 
Mr. JENNER - You just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am I correct in my summary? 
Mrs. PAINE - She suggested Tuesday, as I recall in her letter, but what Tuesday I don't know. If it was written the 8th that would be Tuesday the 12th. There is no notation on my calendar. 
Mr. JENNER - But you do have her response to your letter? 
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; that is what I have. 

The rifle - according to the evidence to hand - was ordered on March 12.

Later in her testimony is this: "And she told me--now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the 20th of March, it says, "Marina" and I judge I went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, I am not certain which. But I judge, also, that this was the second visit." The 20th being the day both weapons are shipped.

Those are the only 2 visits Ruth makes apart from picking Marina up in April to take her back to Irving.

--------------
From Holmes' testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell?
Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box 2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said, "Absolutely not."
"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?"
He said, "No."
"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?"
"No, absolutely not."
"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?"
He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it is possible she could have."
"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him.
And he said, "I don't know any such person."
I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said, "Well, that is my wife, so what?"
And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell."
"Well, I don't know anything about that."
That is all he would say about it.

I should have said previously that this PO Box was the only DALLAS one Marina had access to.  She did also have access in NO. But the one he had after returning to Dallas only shows access to himself, the FPCC and ACLU.

I think Ruth playing the role of Marina, accessed the box. 

To me, Marina's original pleas that Lee was innocent and that he was a good man etc seemed genuine. But she was someone, as I think Alex alluded to, who was used to telling authorities what they wanted to hear. She caved in to this under the watch of the Secret Service. Lee was dead and they had her incommunicado. What they did then was get someone from Immigration to assure her that she would not be deported - thus taking away the threat that the FBI was intent on using, and in the meantime, having men counting all the donated money coming in for her and doing it within her line of sight. They were virtually saying, we have protected you from the FBI and we have all this money coming in for you ($80,000 as it turned out) - and it is yours - if you cooperate. She did what she had to do to survive. But after that experience, the cynic in her kicked in and she would just tell anyone anything that popped into her head... and this is no more evident than in her interviews with the FBI, Warren Commission and a slew of authors.  She knew she was safe and she started playing them all for suckers. She was even quoted as saying those who sent her money were "mugs".

So... the short answer is, no. I put this all on Ruth before the assassination, with Marina coming into line after the assassination.

On Ruth -- the Quakers back east were among the most vociferous of all anti-Communists. There is some evidence that she was working, with Mike and at least one other, on some type of intelligence work. The metal files full of names of Castro sympathizers (if memory serves?); Mike grilling students in a cafe near MSU about Cuba, Mike going to meetings of groups of the left and right, and later, Ruth making lists of names while working for Pro Nica in 1991. 

More specifically, at least one project I think they had going was one aimed at JURE... and this was the reason for the Odio incident - nothing to do with Oswald or the assassination. 

2 of the visitors I believe were Leon Lee of 1026 N Beckley and  [url=https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11941&relPageId=196&search=pino_and odio]Osvaldo Aureolo Pino Pino[/url].  

The purpose of the visit? To have people allegedly associated with JURE make threats to kill Kennedy as a way bringing JURE down. It was not liked by any of the other groups as it was seen as just as to the Left as Castro.

After the assassination, Sylvia saw Oswald-- who looked a little like Leon Lee and she also remembered the names Leon and Osvaldo and put them together when she heard the name Lee Oswald. I think the Paines were "in" on this sting.

All speculative... but fits the evidence and helps make sense of it.


Last edited by greg parker on Mon 12 Aug 2019, 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
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Mon 29 Jul 2019, 2:42 pm
I should add that this doesn't mean Marina was not part of someone's Cold War games in coming to the US in the first place...just not part of setting Lee up...

_________________
Australians don't mind criminals: It's successful bullshit artists we despise. 
              Lachie Hulme            
-----------------------------
The Cold War ran on bullshit.
              Me


"So what’s an independent-minded populist like me to do? I’ve had to grovel in promoting myself on social media, even begging for Amazon reviews and Goodreads ratings, to no avail." 
Don Jeffries

"I've been aware of Greg Parker's work for years, and strongly recommend it." Peter Dale Scott

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Mon 29 Jul 2019, 3:48 pm
Thanks for that explanation of your comments, Greg. The narrative element of this whole thing sometimes seems to get lost. The question of who these people actually were seems crucial in making sense of what happened.

I remember reading that Ruth & Michael Paine had info on right-wing groups as well in those file cabinets somewhere. I think that's important in understanding what they were up to-- as anti-communist, intelligence-connected, well-to-do, liberal normies.
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Mon 29 Jul 2019, 6:21 pm
You make a cogent and compelling case Greg.
The Odio Incident is still something I'm on the picket fence about. Its so rich with nuance and suggestion. A crazy gringo marine with a grudge against JFK.. Plus it's one of the holy cows of conspiracism.
But then again maybe that's where everyone has been going wrong; bowing down t graven images just because they appeared to be holy. To me its the height of folly not t mention hypocrisy just t cling t a fact simply because it hints at conspiracy. I still believe someone was trying t set Lee up but i am by no means certain. I'm trying my best t follow the evidence t where IT leads. Not where I'd like it t lead
Also I wasn't suggesting for a moment Marina was involved with the assassination. She was merely a passenger. Flotsam helplessly carried on the rising tide, blown by a restless wind towards an immortality of sorts .But i definitely think she knew enough t know the Warren Commission was a travesty.
She would know enough about the Show trials- about Vyshinsky and Ulrikh, about Zinoviev and Kamenev admitting t preposterous crimes- t know she was witnessing political theatre of the highest and the lowest order. The cynic and the survivor eclipsed the grieving widow. And the good man who no shoot anyone quickly became the violent wife beating malcontent. Why should she destroy her life defending a dead man?
Plus she had two daughters. Would she want them t go back t what she had escaped from? No, she played along. Learned her lines then attempted t vanish into comfortable obscurity.
Parasites like Lifton make me sick. Circling her like a slimy under sexed octopus, trying t weave her into his morbid fantasies. Compare Eds quietly respectful demeanour t Liftons grotesque bombast.
Lifton is the Dean Koontz of JFK research. Regardless of their intentions( and with several notable exceptions) the post Oliver Stone generation of "researchers" did more harm than good. They turned this case into a lurid tabloid side show. Without ROKC Prayerman would have ended up on the dungheap of their fetid overheated imaginations; along side Wyatt Greer- the fastest gun in the West, the toupee wearing Jack Ruby lookalike, Loveladyfied Lee and good ole Harvey..the Hungarian doppelganger with a song in his heart and a fake mastoidectomy scar on his neck..maybe one of Vary Juddufkis undead relations got their teeth into him before she did..
I digress again Marina was a victim. Another one of the countless millions of faceless( and not so faceless) victims sacrificed before the altar of the Janus headed monster/ demi god that was the Cold War.
She did what she had t to survive. She knew too well the power of a hostile state.
Perhaps as she sat before Warren Dulles et all she heard the ghost of Stalin whispering in her ear;" Do you know how much the USSR weighs?" hed once asked an ashen faced interrogator who hadn't managed t beat a confession out of a particularly recalcitrant prisoner.
I think Marina knew full well how much the good ole US of A weighed.
I think she could feel it start t press down on her waif like shoulders when she inquired of the august gentlemen before her if she was telling them what they wanted t hear.
Greg, this is an extremely valuable thread and one i think should be expanded upon.
I've got t b honest here, I haven't properly studied this aspect closely in over 3 years. I'm basically running on memory, half remembered snippets of conversations and vague recollections of paragraphs. Padded out with great sweeping generalities.
It was stumbling across the Soviet Criminal Code that reignited my interest.
If you're kind enough t humour me and give me a couple of weeks in my spare time i can re read the notes i made, re check my sources and contact a few people. Then with your permission maybe i could write an essay/ timeline on the site. Maybe on this thread, if no one has any objection. Detailing what's known of Marinas background, her family, Uncle Ilyas true rule( the MVD had a very precise role at this time. His official job title was almost certainly an euphemism for monitoring the ports and the mood of the workers). I
Perhaps with your permission i could expand this; an overview of the Soviet intelligence agencies at this time. The hierarchy and their preferred methods of operating. Off the top of my head i can recall 3 seperate incidents from this particular era- late 50s/ early 60s- of Westerners( 2 Americans and a Brit) being compromised in honey trap operations. This puts Marina and her putative role in their proper context.
Basically you've convinced me Oswald was sent t the USSR on a time sensitive mission. As a courier. That makes perfect sense. Marina was used as bait t see if if he had been given any other missions.
I think it was pretty much a wait and see scenario. Each side trying t figure out what the other was up to. Pretty low level stuff. The intelligence community equivalent of flipping burgers.
Oswald- snitch low grade provocateur and courier- maintaining the facade for the next mission. The mission that was hi jacked and subverted by the plotters.
You're spot on too about the Paines. Salandrias essay when he describes them almost toying with him is deeply sinister.
The Paines especially Ruth were obviously deeply implicated. Remember what we were talking about? About how the first generation of OSS /CIA officers were trained by and heavily influenced by British methods?
The right sort of chap or in this case chapess, right families, right schools made of the right stuff. The ancient ties bonded by blood, the tap on the shoulder;" i say would you be interested in serving your country?"
The Paines fit that profile exactly. The arrogant WASPish blue bloods who believe their duty is t rule. T them Kennedy was the living personification of everything they despised. The jumped up arriviste.
Anyway i digress.
With your permission again I'd like t expand on some of your work. Purely from a Soviet perspective. I really genuinely believe we could craft a narrative, on both the macro and micro levels, that would be a quantum leap regarding the understanding of just who exactly Lee and Marina were.


I think with your in depth understanding of Oswald and my knowledge( however rusty) of and background in Soviet history we could collaborate on something that really important.
Maybe i could email you my essay/ timeline then we could proceed from there?
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