Was Eddie Piper on the 6th Floor?

First topic message reminder :

The discrediting of a witness
Arnold Rowland testified before the Warren Commission on March 10, 1964 that he observed two men on the 6th floor between 12:15 and 12:30. He described one as being an "elderly Negro" and gave the following description:

very slender, very thin
bald or practically bald, or very thin hair if he wasn't bald,
50, possibly 55 or 60
5' 8", 5' 10"
very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark, can't recall detail but it [his skin] was either very wrinkled or marked in some way
had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color

The Warren Commission was determined to have this investigated, but with a bias toward discrediting Rowland. The Commission wrote to the FBI on March 16 advising of the "allegations" concerning this "elderly Negro" and asking that "appropriate background investigation be conducted to verify Rowland's testimony" related to this, as well as his academic record.[1]

The letter also stated that Rowland had indicated he "might be able to identify the Negro person whom he saw, although he did not definitely say he would do so."

On March 23, the FBI interviewed Bill Shelley at the Texas School Book Depository. After being furnished with Rowland's description, Shelley advised that the only employees who fit it were Troy Eugene West and Eddie Piper.[2] These two employees also happened to be the only Black employees who stayed inside the building during the assassination without anything approaching solid alibis.

West was a wrapper who worked at the mail desk on the first floor. Piper's official job title was Janitor, though he actually did performed a variety of duties. One additional note: Piper's hours differed to other employees, commencing at 10:00am and finishing at 7:00 to 8:00pm.

Shelley could not recall the type or color shirt either of these men wore on Nov 22.

The FBI next spoke to Piper, and took three full length photos of him, one showing full face, the other two in profile. Piper advised he had worked at the depository for over 5 years; that he seldom worked on the 6th floor, and had not gone there on the day of the assassination. He further stated he had watched the motorcade alone from a first floor window as he ate his lunch, denied owning a red and green shirt on that date, and also that he had worn a red and green shirt on that date. Recall however, that Rowland had only suggested they might be the colors. His only firm memory was that it was “very bright”. Piper added that he wore glasses at all times while working and only took them off to sleep.

Piper's description in the report is as follows:
Born: Jan 23, 1908.
Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 140
Hair: gray
Eyes: brown
Build: slender
Facial characteristics: wears moustache; no scars or marks visible

The same procedure was followed with Troy West; photos and description taken, questions asked. West advised he generally worked at the mail desk on the first floor and in addition to his other duties, also made the coffee for other employees. On the day of the assassination he had been on the first floor all day, and at the time the shots were fired, had been preparing a pot of coffee, and had been alone.

West's description was given as:
Born: Mar 11, 1907
Height: 5' 91/2"
Weight: 155
Hair: black
Eyes: brown
Complexion: dark
Build: medium
Facial characteristics: wears moustache, no visible scars or marks

As with Piper, West denied owning a red and green shirt, or ever wearing such a shirt to work.[3]

The rest of the report is dedicated to tearing down Rowland's testimony regarding his IQ and his scholastic achievements. Though he had clearly overstated his academic record, the report does indicate he had an IQ test in 1959. Unfortunately, the FBI, in its wisdom, blacked out the score, while claiming in its summary that it was 109 (Rowland had said it was 147).

The photos of Piper and West are not attached to the report, and there is no indication the photos were ever shown to Rowland. They had apparently satisfied themselves that he was a liar, and abruptly ceased the investigation.

Of the two, Piper seems the better fit regarding Rowland's description, and it is Piper who has the greater difficulty insofar as demonstrating his whereabouts during relevant periods.

Oswald's escort to the 6th floor
On November 24, it was reported around the country that "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade." [4] In context, this event was no doubt at the start of the lunch break, or very soon thereafter.

Tempting as it is to suggest this story is a bastardization of Givens' account of returning to the 6th floor to retrieve his forgotten cigarettes - this account did not emerge until much later. It is just as likely, if not more so, that Givens' late emerging story is an attempt to explain away this one, dropping the bit about taking anyone up there with him, and replacing it with seeing Oswald already there.

To de-construct the newspaper account, we must first ask who claimed to watch the motorcade alone on the first floor? The answer to that is Eddie Piper. The next question is why would Oswald need to be taken to the 6th floor by anyone? As he worked in the building and regularly needed to retrieve orders from that floor, the answer is simply that he needed no such escort. Someone who might need an escort up there would be a non-employee. As it happens, Rowland did see another person up on the 6th floor; a fair complexioned Caucasian or Latin male with dark hair wearing a light colored shirt, opened at the collar with a t-shirt underneath and dark slacks or blue jeans. Rowland thought this man was in his early thirties and was holding a 30.06 rifle. Rowland's description of this man would virtually match the ones given by Howard Brennan of a man he saw on the 6th floor (white man in his early 30's, slender, about 165 to 175 pounds, wearing light colored clothing) and Marion Baker of a man he initially said he encountered on the 3rd or 4th floor, but later changing it to the 2nd floor. (white man approximately 30 years old, 5"9', 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket).

Piper's alibi
Piper's first official statement was on November 23 at the Sheriff's office. In this, he indicated that, yesterday at about 12:00 noon, this fellow Lee says to me, "I'm going up to eat" and I went on to my lunch. I went to the front window on the first floor and ate my lunch and waited to see the President's parade go by. I saw the President pass and heard some shots and looked at the clock there and saw it was 12:25PM. The shots seemed to me like they came from up inside the building. We will return to those words later. For now, there is one other comment worth noting from this statement: It was about 1:00 PM when the police made us vacate the building and as we were being checked out, I noticed that "Lee" wasn't with us and I mentioned to some of the employees there checking out that Lee wasn't there and somebody said, he must have already gone out. Before the WC, he would admit he noticed Lee missing, but denied mentioning it to any other employee. Yet this cannot be a mere misunderstanding on the part of those taking the statement as it includes mention of specific dialog. It will come as no surprise though, that the WC just let the matter drop.

Piper's next entries into the annals of the case were as one of the subjects of a Secret Service Report consisting of interview results of employees of the shipping and order filling department of the TSBD dated December 7, 1963 followed by a Dallas Police Intelligence Report dated February 17, 1964 regarding his knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John F Kennedy.[5] Only a small percentage of witnesses were lucky enough to be the subject of a PI report. They were not done just for the heck of it. The date of the report makes it highly likely that Piper was called in as a result of a February 10 Star Telegram story by Thayer Waldo. Waldo had been told by Mike Howard of the Secret Service and his brother Pat, a Tarrant County Deputy Sheriff that a Negro witness, who had been looking out of a 6th floor window, witnessed Oswald firing at the president. In some reports, this witness is referred to as a janitor - and Piper was the only janitor. [6] There are certain elements of the story which seem fabricated, miss told, miss heard or blended from other stories. However, the basics of it fit with the news story concerning the escorting of Oswald to the 6th floor.

Piper was not interviewed by the Warren Commission until April 8, 1964 - after Rowland's testimony and the subsequent FBI investigation of the young man's claims. Piper told the commission he was on the first floor at about noon when he last saw Oswald, and gave the following evidence concerning that brief moment: Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor. Asked to confirm which window, he corrected it to the second from the front door. Piper next testified that he had been looking through the window while eating his lunch, but couldn't see anything because of the crowd. He claimed not to have moved from that spot until immediately after the second shot rang out. It is at this precise point that Ball asks if he ever went to the sixth floor and if he was there any time that day. Was Ball sniffing around the question as to whether he escorted Oswald (or someone) up to the sixth, or - despite the FBI's assurances that Rowland's claims were bogus, was he still considering them as possible? Piper answered "no" for the record on both questions, and "yes" to a further one on if he had gone above the first floor any time before the shots. One of Piper's daily tasks took him up to the fourth floor. From this floor, he would work his way down, collecting mail on the way. He claimed to have started on the fourth floor that day at 11:00am, arriving back on the first floor at about 11:30am. The half hour between then and his discussion about lunch with Oswald was left untouched. But it was at the sound of the second shot where previously unmentioned elements in his story come into play.[7] I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the boss-man and a policeman or someone. Asked by Ball if he had moved to this new spot in order to see better, Piper replied, no, sir; I did it to see what time it was---when all this happened---to see what time it was. Asked what time it was, Piper answered it was about between 12:30---between 12:27 and 12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember.

But that is not what he said the time was in his statements of November 23 and the following Feb 17. In those statements, he was unequivocal that the time had been precisely 12:25. This was the time the motorcade was expected, but it was running five minutes late. Was Piper, not knowing this, trying to time-stamp his alibi with what he thought had been the time of the assassination?

One way to test his alibi is to look for corroboration. When we do that, we find: He did not see anyone else who had remained inside on the first floor - even though, according to his testimony, he moved from his spot at the window to the same location as West. Likewise, West did not see anyone else. Piper belatedly (that is, after the event became widely known) claimed to have seen Truly and an officer just after they entered. In his testimony, Piper was unable to say what clothing or uniform the officer wore, and even stated at one point he may have been an FBI agent. So problematical was his testimony in this regard that he had to be called back to clear up the matter. He did a little better second time round. Truly however, stated in testimony that he saw no one in the area just prior to his ascent up the stairs. Interestingly, Piper inserts himself into the Truly-Baker drama by recalling an exchange with Truly about the elevators. Neither Truly nor Baker recalled anything of the sort. What Baker did recall was seeing two white men - one either side of him as he and Truly went for the elevators.

Victoria Adams, who within a minute of the last shot ringing out, ran from a window on the south side of the fourth floor down the rear stairs to the first floor, saw no one there but Shelley and Lovelady.

But possibly the most damaging testimony to the alibi came from Bill Shelley. Leaving aside his ludicrous timeline for WC consumption, he was back in the building as per his initial statement not long after Truly and Baker entered. His testimony on seeing Piper at that point is enlightening:

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

So there it is. Piper did not watch the motorcade from a first floor window and move to West's mail desk at the sound of the second shot. He was seen "coming back" from that presumed viewing position after the last shot, and indeed, after the entry of Truly and Baker – leaving open the possibility he had not been at a first floor window at all. He could have been "coming back" from virtually any place in the building.

In sum
• Piper was one of only two employees, apart from West, who had access to the materials needed to construct a paper bag; Piper, by virtue of working until 7:00 or 8:00pm - long after all other employees had left. The other employee was Jack Dougherty who started earlier than all other employees.

• An early news report indicated a "porter" had taken Oswald to the sixth floor around noon before going to the first floor to view the motorcade. Piper was not a porter, but is recorded as a porter in one police report. The main clue to it being Piper was that he was alleged to have been the only person to watch the motorcade on the first floor.

• Piper was identified by Bill Shelley as one of only two employees who matched the description of the "elderly Negro" seen by Arnold Rowland. The other was Troy West. Both Piper's and West's descriptions were noted by the FBI, with Piper's being the better match.

• The Dallas Police wrote an intelligence report on Piper due to a story by Thayer Waldo which related an account given by a Secret Service agent that a janitor had witnessed Oswald firing from the 6th floor window.

• The FBI took photos of Piper and West as part of the investigation of Rowland's claims. They are not appended to the report, and there was nothing noting they were ever shown to Rowland.

• Piper's alibi does not withstand scrutiny, and has no corroboration. It actually contains elements consistent with fabrication, particularly in attempting to "time-stamp" his move from his alleged viewing position, using the time the motorcade was due to pass instead of the actual time.

• Piper was seen moving towards West's mail desk by Bill Shelley at a time later than that which Piper had indicated - meaning he (Piper) could have been anywhere in the building beforehand.

• Although he denied saying it once sitting before the WC, his initial statement indicated he told other employees that Oswald was missing. The timeframe he gave for doing this probably preceded the time Truly claimed to have noticed the same thing. Shelley in fact, claimed to have told Truly about Oswald's absence. If so, it may well be because he had been informed himself of this by Piper.

Final word
Eddie Piper is an unlikely conspirator. It is possible he escorted someone (the unknown sniper) to the 6th floor and stayed up after being invited to watch the parade from a window – thus implicating a Black man in the assassination as predicted by Pfc Eugene Dinkin. By Saturday however (when Piper made his first official statement), co-conspirators were out of the question. He was given his alibi, leaving himself off the 6th floor and on the 1st floor, whilst implicating Oswald as not only going up, but doing so alone.

ENDNOTES
[1] FBI 62-109060 JFK HQ File, Section 60
[2] Ibid
[3] Ibid
[4] For example, Victoria (Texas) Advocate, Nov 24, 1963, p7. This article refers to a "porter", and Piper was designated a "janitor", however his duties were varied and he was in fact quoted in the report cited at [5] as referring to himself as a "porter".
[5] Dallas Police Assassination Archives - Box 13 Folder 5 Item 26
[6] CD 1245 p 170 et seq. Investigation instigated by Mark Lane claim that the Howards had fabricated the story to further implicate Oswald.
[7] Piper had not previously mentioned seeing Truly and a policeman enter. He had, in the Dallas Police Intelligence report, mentioned moving away from the window and looking at the clock, but not where exactly he had moved to.

To me this is an attempt to combine the stories of Williams, Givens and Piper into one. A leaked story to bolster the LN scenario. Likely Givens got closest but could not be placed there are the same time as the shots. Second best was to use him with the cigarette story. 

Then again I have never believed Piper's testimony. Who knows what these guys saw/heard.

So am I right in thinking that it's possible to have Dougherty and Piper up on the 6th floor while the shots were fired.
And Williams Norman and Jarman came  up to the 5th floor to watch the parade but only after they'd eaten downstairs first

Is that possible?

Some thoughts,

We can put Jack on sixth floor.
Not sure he was near the windows to be witnessed by anyone on Houston St. or Elm.
Getting stock is vauge. Tho it could put him anywhere on six. but unless he was pulling stock from the wall of books in front of those windows it is unlikely he "could" be seen.

Piper... has the ring of uncorroborated testimony
West doesnt confirm him
Truly doesnt confirm him
Shelley mucks it up for him.

 "A building porter said he took Oswald to the 6th floor in an elevator. When he got out, Oswald asked the porter to send the car back up for him. The porter went to the ground floor to watch the Kennedy motorcade."

Piper is going to fourth floor and collect mail as he works his way down at around 11am.
Would it be easier to take an elevator or walk up four flights of stairs?
Old man Piper is taking an elevator.
We know the clipboard with the Scott Foresman orders was found by Frankie Kaiser up on six, that Lee was going to fill likely after lunchtime.
Possibly Lee did take an elevator up around 11:30 and Piper was in it.
Piper would only need the elevator to go to 4th... would he really need to take Lee up to six and then come back down to 4th floor???

Why when everyone was distancing themselves would Piper include himself in a murder.

Point of fact only the front passenger elevator could be "sent back up"

Rear freight elevator had controls inside and you had to close both inner and outer gates before controls worked.
Same for rear passenger elevator, it required a person inside it to operate it.

Whereas front elevator you could push the button hop off and thus send that elevator to high as fourth floor... exactly where Piper would get off to go collect mail.
Can not send any elevator 'back up' to six.

I have never seen any "crates" on six floor especially near the stairwell, as pictures document clearly.
Cartons of books are hardly crates though it is tempting to brush this off that way.
And there is no where to hide, crates withstanding, near the stairs, or near the door to the stairs. Why not run down them if you ran to them.... especially if you are a quote scared nigger whom no one seen run that fast before end quote.
And Lee nearly steps on him to go down the stairs.
Oh a good afterthought as there is no where to hide you might as well lay in front of the stairway entrance......and get stepped on by fleeing murderer.
Yeah.

Recall this is Waldo hearing the story through another party. Informant yada yada.

I have so many problems with this piece of journalism its better I stop here.

 More on Waldo's World,
https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwaldo.htm


Mick, could they both have been on six.
Maybe, Jack yes, Eddie denies.

Rowlands times could be off, yes.
Rowland sure as hell did not see an assassin in the sfw shoot anyone.
So any basis on this idea ruins possibly a good witness.
No shots fired from TSBD equals wishful witnesses.

Did Euins see Piper.
Maybe.
But Piper wasnt blowing JFKs brains about the limo...so again no assassin, no active shooter with a rifle spitting fire and puff of smoke. Nada.
Euins story change to seeing that man before the parade approached to after it was going past.
So when is it best *possible* all these folks saw Piper.
It would be well before the parade approached.

Cheers, Ed

Thank -you Ed,

and yes if they were at the window or close by they were sighted well before the parade. That's what I'm thinking. In my version Piper was told to piss off downstairs by Dougherty. :-)

Beauty Mick,
...maybe Piper "portered" Jack up to six.
as you say got no love from Jack so he hit the bricks
It is more believable than their two intertwined stories.
Cheers, Ed

If the limo windshield is cracked in Altgens 6 and we can see Jfk reaction to a bullet strike(? or shrapnel?)
Does that mean he was shot at before he is shot?
Do we think the agents and motor officers are reacting to the "Second Shot" in Alt6?
Since the Warren Commission could not define the shots as Miss Hit Hit or Hit Miss Hit, we are left with possibilities and perhaps the FBI or SS is correct or maybe even Mike Dworetsky. I'd say its 50-50 odds

Point is speculation is ripe for the picking.

No one sees such a plump, round faced man as Jack in that window or sticking a rifle out any window and no one sees, films, or photographs discharge of rifle in any TSBD window.
Did not happen.

99.9999999% say first shot was low, firecracker like, not a high rifle report...
Is anyone in Alt6 looking up?

Good questions, all answered.
Ed

Ed,
Did we ever get a photo of Jack.
I'm not sure that he would've fired a shot from that building but I'm leaning to him being up there on the 6th and up to no good.....

Jake, looking at that Photo again of the Daltex POV shot looking down Elm and at the snipers nest, the window facing East? of the TSBD...wow! Jack panicked saw the shooter in at the Deltex and dumped the lay down rifle and got outta there

I have a better description and can look again at images for Jack.
I think he was as he said getting stock and was doing so early before the flooring crew got through with lunch and hogged the elevators.
Jack would be pulling stacks of book boxes from the pallets of books up on floors 5 and 6.
He would hand truck the stacks over to the elevator and then take elevator down to 5 and repeat.

If its claimed Jack planted the rifle or arrainged the snipers nest boxes.... Im not convinced.
Or even rearranges the boxes minutes later.
I think there is possibility Jack did what others in the building did. Went to the nearest window to get a view of what was going on Outside thd TSBD
https://youtu.be/FR5CwcRWGMM
could that be Jack? It sure could be given his whereabouts at the time.
He would go from elevators to the closest Elm street window to see the excitement.... it fits with the Dillard images mystery man. Then he goes back and takes the freight elevator he has stock loaded on down to shipping floor, unloads the elevator and sees Piper whom he converses with then takes elevator back up to 5 to finish pulling stock.

What do you think Mick?
Cheers, Ed

I wax and wane on Jack's possible involvement Ed, 

I'm not totally convinced either. But a couple of things strike me about  Dougherty....the bullshit story about him being a retard from Truly,over the top in my view and The record does not support that claim. And the other thing is his opening up in the mornings with his set of keys.....
With what we know of Oswald being out front just after the shots -Dougherty as near as I can see is one of the only white males not accounted for entirely for his whereabouts when the shots rang out and just for that matter neither was Piper, not really anyways and didn't he close up at nights and have a set of keys also.

I know in the past people have said "hey it'd be easy to get a rifle into that building circa 1963" Noone would've given it a second thought seeing a rifle in at work.

I get that. But someone still has to account for that. Caster on Wednesday? Or Frazier and a handover to Dougherty early Friday morning.
Who had the opportunity to place the rifle among the boxes without being seen....not many I would think. I can't imagine that rifle was planted too early in the day for fear of it's discovery by one of the employees.

In my view Dougherty or Piper had the opportunity.

Just my thoughts....

Some quick thoughts.

Piper told the FBI in December that he saw Oswald shortly after starting work at 10:00 am. Oswald was filling orders. He is unequivocal that he never saw Oswald the rest of the day and also unequivocal that he never ever spoke to Oswald the whole time Oswald worked there.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142&relPageId=580

Yet he would later tell the commission that he not only did see Oswald a second time that day, he spoke to him at or near to the start of the lunch break and reminded Oswald it was time for lunch, which brings him full circle back to what he said in his Nov 23 affidavit. 

Piper does not mention anything about Dougherty in either of his appearance before the commission, or any statement as far as I can see,

Yet dougherty had this to say:



If I am any judge, Dougherty gave away the truth and lied at the prompting of Ball to distance himself from that truth.

"I said, 'has the president been shot?'"  

This conversation never took place, at least not on the first floor, but Dougherty put his foot right in it when he said the above. 

For his part, Piper testified that he could not see anything through the window except the crowd and in his FBI interview, he told the agents that he determined "later" what had happened. Since West didn't watch the parade and West denied even seeing Piper, he could not have determined from him. According to his testimony, the next person he sees is Truly with a cop or agent, but the only words exchanged are about th elevator. In any case, Truly did not recall seeing Piper either.

Dougherty knew the president had been shot before he came down that elevator. Piper also knew the president had been shot, and it could not have been from seeing it through a first floor window, or from West or Truly.

I agree that elements of the story of Piper, Givens and the elevator operator at the Dal-Tex have been combined. 

The news account I posted earlier in this tread, gave the age of the witness as 30 - too young to be Piper - yet in other respects, it does describe Piper more than Givens or the Dal-Tex guy. For a start, neither of those were janitors. 

On the other other hand... according to Braden, the elevator operator at the Dal-Tex ran up the hallway and out to a police officer and was vry "agitated and excited", so he is a better match for the "scared nigger" as it was put at the time.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=19906&search=braden#relPageId=78&tab=page

(Braden btw, was questioned in part by a Mr Purdy)

One other point... to Mick... Piper testified that he NEVER ran to the coffee area to get a better look. He claimed it was see what time it was. In his initial statement, he claimed it was 12:25 - the time the motorcade was due - not the time it arrived. In his testimony, he obviously knew better and amended it to a more accurate, but less specific 12:27 to 12:30. 

Piper did not watch the motorcade from any first floor window. I believe he had lunch with Dougherty in the domino room and departed with ho,m from there to the 6th floor. Interestingly, Piper testified he retrieved his lunch from the basement. What else was down there (apart from Frazier's lunch)? A wrapped up throwdown maybe? Did Dougherty go with Piper to the basement?

Lastly,  Dougherty testified that after the assassination when he came down from the 5th, he was asked where the boss was by an FBI agen so went looking for him.

Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL - Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; and I found out later he (Truly) was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.
 
What Dougherty is saying is that he found out some time later, that Truly had been on the 4th floor at time he was looking for him, but that he had somehow missed seeing him in his search. 

So Dougherty never heard Truly call for an elevator when he was up on 5 and never saw him on 4 when looking for him. He never heard the acll because it was never made. He missed seeing Truly on 4 because Truly and Sawyer were searching the storage area. 

This may not belong here, but since we're talking about Jack Dougherty. In 2013, Sean Murphy laid out his thoughts on the movement of the elevators relative to Jack Dougherty and I included it in Prayer Man. Having zero knowledge on this at the time, I simply accepted it until such time I learned more information to either strengthen or undermine the theory.  I'm taking a fresh look at this and I'm trying to get my head around it, so I'd like to lay it out here—expressed in my words—for any comments, pro or con.
 
Basic sequence:
 
James Jarman and Harold Norman get off the west elevator on the fifth floor of the TSBD to watch the motorcade. After doing so, they push the gate down which allows the elevator to be called by someone else on another floor.
 
Jack Dougherty, who had been working on the sixth floor earlier, arrives on the sixth floor to watch the motorcade. He sees one or more strangers up there and at least one is holding a rifle. He quickly goes down to the fifth floor.
 
Jack Dougherty hears a shot and runs down to the first floor via the rear stairs. He encounters Eddie Piper. Jack asks Piper if he heard anything and Piper says he heard three shots.
 
After encountering Oswald near the front entrance, Truly and Baker make their way to the NW corner of the TSBD. They press the button for the west elevator and it comes down. They take it up to the seventh floor in order to gain access to the roof to check it.
 
The strangers on the sixth floor use the east elevator to escape (the east elevator cannot be summoned from another floor, even if the gates are down). They leave the poorly-guarded building.
 
Notes:
 
First-day/early evidence is more reliable than later information/testimony.
 
Dougherty's first two statements (11/22-23) are consistent in one point: he heard one shot, one loud explosion that sounded like a rifle shot. He sticks to this even when recounting that Eddie Piper told him he heard three shots. [I haven't gone over Jack's WC testimony in detail yet.]
 
The reason for the story to change where Truly and Baker couldn't get the elevator on the first floor so they ran up the rear stairs to find the stuck elevator on the fifth floor instead, has to do with the First to Second Evolution process. The official authorities needed an Oswald sighting on the escape route they were developing: seeing Oswald on the second floor after he ran down from the sixth was the only way to pull this off.
 
Along with this, after climbing the stairs and having the second floor lunchroom encounter, Truly and Baker say they continue to work their way up to the fifth floor where they see only the east elevator. Then they say they take that up the last two floors.
 
By Truly claiming to have taken the east elevator up from the fifth to the seventh floor instead of coming off the stairs on the fifth floor to take the elevator they were on all the time (west), they help to preserve the notion of Oswald sole guilt.
 
Reality: Truly and Baker encounter Oswald down in front, then take west elevator from the first to the seventh floor. Strangers use the (staged & ready) east elevator to escape.
 
Fiction: Oswald runs down rear stairs to second floor lunchroom. Truly and Baker try elevators, no worky, run up rear stairs, encounter Oswald, continue running up the stairs to fifth floor, find east elevator, continue up to seventh.
 
If the above is true, Jack would have had to fly down the stairs quickly to avoid detection by Vicky Adams.  
 
Bonnie Ray Williams said on his 11/23 FBI statement that "someone might have been coming down on the elevator and they would not have noticed that." This, to me, lends possible support for bad guys using the east elevator for a getaway.
 
I know there's much discussion about Piper right now and I'm still reading that and trying to follow the arguments.

Just wanted to jot this down as it helps me think.

Nice work detective.
Good points on calling or not calling the elevators.
Could Jack take East elevator down.
I mean Truly Baker avoided floor six where Jack 'was' did he walk down to 5 and take it...if it was on 5.
The Truly Baker duo sure did not run into Jack, and besides possibly Piper no one else did.
So Jack isnt downstairs by time Truly Baker arrive to either take stairs or elevator.
Jack aint on five when B&T arrived there, but supposedly Williams sees Bakers White Helmet go to an elevator (East?) and go (up? down?)
Jack is not seen by anyone on the stairs, or by Vicki Adams Styles Otis or Gardner... he must of been lightning quick, retard strength but in track and field.

I need coffee..., that and a time motion study of all employees...that helps me think.
Btw it feels like Im playing 3D chess, juggling people on elevators and stairwells
Besides, Jack cant even run into Truly when asked to by Fbi agent and makes a concerted effort.

Stan, I like it. One shot heard by Jack works with the notion that other shots came from Daltex.
Ed, I'm hatching an idea for a simplified time motion study tool. No promises. It will take time if it ever gets in motion.

Now if Jack was standing in the SE corner of the TSBDB on the 6th floor near the window facing the Daltex, just where that line of sight leads up to the seventh floor of the Daltex window in this pic- well you get the idea. Jack may have even fired off a stray shot, may have stuck the barrel out the window too. He looked up though after hearing an explosion coming from slightly above and to his left - saw the real assassin in the window- and well he panicked- threw the throw down rifle over yonder an got outta there....

Fact or fiction....who knows

I have only researched two other assassinations. RFK and Jorge Gaitan. 

In both of those cases, the patsy has (wildly) fired at least one shot - and then is blamed for all, with the real assassin being able to hide his shots, even if he can be seen (In Gaitan's case, the real killer had his pistol hidden by a coat wrapped around his hand and arm). 

In this case, since the patsy was not being controlled MKULTRA-like, as appears to be the case in the other two assassinations, someone else would have to be seen or heard firing off a shot which could be tied to your patsy or at least to your patsy's alleged location - and then you can take the next step of pinning ALL the shots on him.

Stan Dane wrote:Basic sequence:
 
James Jarman and Harold Norman get off the west elevator on the fifth floor of the TSBD to watch the motorcade. After doing so, they push the gate down which allows the elevator to be called by someone else on another floor.
 
Jack Dougherty, who had been working on the sixth floor earlier, arrives on the sixth floor to watch the motorcade. He sees one or more strangers up there and at least one is holding a rifle. He quickly goes down to the fifth floor.
 
Jack Dougherty hears a shot and runs down to the first floor via the rear stairs. He encounters Eddie Piper. Jack asks Piper if he heard anything and Piper says he heard three shots.
 
After encountering Oswald near the front entrance, Truly and Baker make their way to the NW corner of the TSBD. They press the button for the west elevator and it comes down. They take it up to the seventh floor in order to gain access to the roof to check it.
 
The strangers on the sixth floor use the east elevator to escape (the east elevator cannot be summoned from another floor, even if the gates are down). They leave the poorly-guarded building.

Since I raised the possibility of bad guys on the sixth floor escaping via the East Elevator, I want to follow-up here and lay out some thoughts that I originally got from Lee Farley a few years ago, thoughts I filed away for later.

As we know, the East Elevator cannot be summoned from another floor; you must be in it personally, with gates down, to move it to another floor. The implications of this are potentially enormous. What if the bad guys, after doing whatever the hell they did up on the sixth floor (firing a rifle), came down on the pre-staged East Elevator (EE) to the second floor?





Notice the isolated space as you exit the EE. There's a door leading to the 2nd floor lunchroom. There's a door leading to some undefined small room. And there's double doors leading to a conference room. I'm going to have to look it up, but I recall one of the clerical women testifying that she locked the doors leading to the conference room (I think this is one of the things that Lee Farley found curious).

What if the escape plan that included the EE also included coming down to the 2nd floor, strategically locking/controlling the access doors to the space where you exit the EE, then moving to the conference room (or the small, undefined room) only to wait/regroup to take the next steps to exit from the porous building while it was still unguarded?

If I were to map out all of the relevant facts/testimony to build a timeline to test this and other credible theories, who should be included? Take a list of witnesses, map out what they said in a timeline, factor in other pertinent observations, etc., and see what what we come up with. Point me in the right direction and I'll do it and share the results as I go.

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Good find, Barto

An old thread by Greg.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/11755-eddie-piper/

Wash Post Nov 24th 1963

I found a news item on Eddie Piper. 

Piper's so called view from inside the TSBD, thanks to Neil Safaty for taking this shot which is from the Reading Room at the 6th fl museum. Overall not a bad view.




But there is a massive issue when combined with the actual setting back in 63. The so called brickwork pattern, limits one view of this, and not just a little bit. The pattern can be seen clearly in Wiegman. But the shot below from the Domino Room illustrates this even more. I show this shot due to lack of an internal TSBD image of the south side of the TSBD.




That by itself makes Piper's position while the motorcade went by a tad questionable I'd say.

Thanks Barto. That supports what Sean Murphy assumed would be the case.