"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[beowulf]

Saying you saw a generic someone, for whom you can only give a vague description, is one thing. Pointing at specific defendant in a capital murder case and swearing you saw him when you didn't, that's pretty hard core.

Frankly I don't know if Baker would have ever changed his story to ID LHO on 2nd, 3rd or 4th floor if Oswald had lived to stand to trial. As we saw in the no-stakes London trial,  Baker was (to his credit) a terrible liar when faced with cross-examination. Once Oswald died, it became much easier (both practically and morally) to point the finger at him.

On the other hand, even if Baker was willing, Fritz had to worry that LHO's legal team would be able come up solid alibi witnesses downstairs. Baker would be left way out on a limb if he swore he'd confronted Oswald on the 3rd or 4th floor and then half a dozen witnesses swore they saw Oswald downstairs by the entrance... confronted by Officer Baker. Awkward.

[GuestGuest]

This would assume Fritz was in on the assassination before hand. Not out of the question. Wouldn't be surprised if the mayor was. If Fritz knew he had to build a case against Oswald before the shooting, it would explain a lot. The plan was to kill Oswald or disappear him immediately, but a convincing case still had to be made against him.

[Albert Rossi]

But it's the kind of thing a codicologist might try to do (something within my domain of past experience, at least for the medieval period).

And now that I have finished going all the way through the EF thread, I see that Sean indeed offered similar analysis for some features in Fritz's transcriptions of Bookhout's interrogation notes ...

[greg_parkerAdmin]

But it's the kind of thing a codicologist might try to do (something within my domain of past experience, at least for the medieval period).

And now that I have finished going all the way through the EF thread, I see that Sean indeed offered similar analysis for some features in Fritz's transcriptions of Bookhout's interrogation notes ...

I used to argue with Sean over those notes. I could not conceive of them having been written by someone not in a great hurry and under great pressure. Someone with the time to search for sources and to gather ones thoughts, and take at least some time to organize those thoughts on paper, should not end up with notes which look like the work of a demented chicken.

Sean's latest discovery however, that the Fritz notes are a copy of Bookhout's has won me over.

One thing I will add... I still don't believe Fritz couldn't do a better job compiling notes - especially if he's copying someone else's. I can only suggest he made them such a mess on purpose in order to give the appearance that he made them during the interrogations.

From the first time I laid eyes on them, I have been saying that those notes have been misread; that with the correct punctuation, they are more or less in lock-step with LHO's alibi as we have come to know it. That is, the only reason for a mention of the 2nd floor was to locate the place he obtained the coke that he was then seen with on the FIRST floor.

[Vinny]

It was said that LBJ had phoned Captain Fritz and told him that he had got his man and to stop the investigation. If so that might explain some of Fritz's actions.

[beowulf]

Right, as I've  mentioned before, I'm on the view there was a murder conspiracy and a coverup conspiracy.  That Fritz was clearly part of the coverup is not proof he was part of the murder.

Oswald was brought in for cop killing, I think Fritz sincerely believed LHO guilty of that (might have been for all I know) and was perfectly fine to go along with JFK coverup conspiracy since they couldn't be railroading a nicer guy. 

OT but perhaps related, what drove me nuts about the movie No Country For Old Men was that Tommy Lee Jones's beat down sherifff was going after a known cop killer and yet for some reason he's the only lawman in Texas who gave a damn.
I found that wildly unrealistic-- the overkill police response to the Texas Theater is about what you'd expect-- that it completely took me out of the story the rest of the movie.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Regarding the chicken bones found on the sixth floor, this is what Dallas Morning news reporter Jim Ewell told Larry Sneed:
 
"Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating."
 
As I hope to convince researchers in an upcoming essay, Gerald Hill was on the sixth floor before Luke Mooney discovered the spent shell casings. I think the chicken bones were the remains of what the sniper/spotter was eating whilst waiting for the motorcade to go past the TSBD.
 
I agree that Williams was lying about being on the sixth floor. Harold Norman told the Secret Service on December 4, 1963, that Williams went with him to the 5th floor (implying they went together at the same time). James Jarman testified that Williams went outside with him and Norman, only to "correct" himself when Ball asked him if Williams had gone outside.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Ok. The jig, she is in the upright position, guys.

Ralph Cinque is on the job.

 

Frazier identified?

Don't make Ralph laugh.

It is F-A-K-E-D
http://oswaldinthedoorway.blogspot.com.au/

[Albert Rossi]

One thing I will add... I still don't believe Fritz couldn't do a better job compiling notes - especially if he's copying someone else's. I can only suggest he made them such a mess on purpose in order to give the appearance that he made them during the interrogations.

Greg, what would Fritz's time constraints be in copying these notes?

[greg_parkerAdmin]

One thing I will add... I still don't believe Fritz couldn't do a better job compiling notes - especially if he's copying someone else's. I can only suggest he made them such a mess on purpose in order to give the appearance that he made them during the interrogations.

Greg, what would Fritz's time constraints be in copying these notes?

Here is his testimony on "notes"

Mr. BALL. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little notebook there. 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have a notebook. 
Mr. BALL. Did you make notes as of that time? 
Mr. FRITZ. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the tragedy. 
Mr. BALL. How long after? 
Mr. FRITZ. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working on it ever since. 
Mr. BALL. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Who was that? 
Mr. FRITZ. I had several officers assist me with this, and some secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T. L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like this.
Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is hard to say just who helped. 
Mr. BALL. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you have with you, the book at which you are looking now? 
Mr. FRITZ. This is the book I am talking about. 
Mr. BALL. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general of Texas? 
Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too. 
Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record. 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. And you call that what? 
Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy." 
Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. Now, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you? 
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book. 
Mr. BALL. An index. 
Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book. 

So we can set the timer from the moment the commission is announced - right up the time of his WC appearance - and he had a phalanx of assistants on the job as well.

He did disavow that the notes were made during the interrogations - and copying Bookhout in the end, seems to be a case of copying notes to go into his final report - but I still think he was going to try and pass them off as his own interrogation notes only to deep-six that idea because of the very problems with them Sean has pointed out (e.g. his inclusion of himself as being present). The notes were then quietly tucked away somewhere safe.

[Albert Rossi]

Thanks for pointing back to his testimony.  I can see what you are driving at.  I guess I was just wondering how long Fritz was allowed to keep Bookhout's notes in order to transcribe them.

[GuestGuest]

You mean that's not a picture of Frazier? But in reality it's Ralph Cinque?

Who would be in a position to carry out such a forgery? Who stood to gain? IMHO, only Billy Lovelady.

[GuestGuest]

Did LBJ phone him from Air Force One? Fritz would have had to have gotten to Baker before the plane landed in DC.

[GuestGuest]

Right, as I've  mentioned before, I'm on the view there was a murder conspiracy and a coverup conspiracy.  That Fritz was clearly part of the coverup is not proof he was part of the murder.

Oswald was brought in for cop killing, I think Fritz sincerely believed LHO guilty of that (might have been for all I know) and was perfectly fine to go along with JFK coverup conspiracy since they couldn't be railroading a nicer guy. 

OT but perhaps related, what drove me nuts about the movie No Country For Old Men was that Tommy Lee Jones's beat down sherifff was going after a known cop killer and yet for some reason he's the only lawman in Texas who gave a damn.
I found that wildly unrealistic-- the overkill police response to the Texas Theater is about what you'd expect-- that it completely took me out of the story the rest of the movie.

That seems more plausible, except that Fritz was playing fast and loose with the evidence from the time he got to the TSBD. Maybe he got the word from LBJ when he  was at Parkland.

[GuestGuest]

Regarding the chicken bones found on the sixth floor, this is what Dallas Morning news reporter Jim Ewell told Larry Sneed:
 
"Meanwhile Jerry Hill worked his way up to the sixth floor, leaned out an open window, and he had what was thought to be Oswald’s little fried chicken lunch. It was in a little pop box. Jerry was holding that box and holding up one of the chicken bones exclaiming to everybody that listened to him down on the street that the fried chicken was what he had been eating."
 
As I hope to convince researchers in an upcoming essay, Gerald Hill was on the sixth floor before Luke Mooney discovered the spent shell casings. I think the chicken bones were the remains of what the sniper/spotter was eating whilst waiting for the motorcade to go past the TSBD.
 
I agree that Williams was lying about being on the sixth floor. Harold Norman told the Secret Service on December 4, 1963, that Williams went with him to the 5th floor (implying they went together at the same time). James Jarman testified that Williams went outside with him and Norman, only to "correct" himself when Ball asked him if Williams had gone outside.

I'm not sure a well trained sniper would be eating fried chicken a few minutes before he was to take a difficult shot. As to Williams', Norman's, Jarman's and Given's testimony, I give little credence to any of it made after 11,22,63. They were clearly coached/coerced to say whatever, and no doubt got confused as to what they were supposed to say when. Williams said he was on the 6th floor after 12:00 noon, in his statement on the 22, and I tend to believe that.

[beowulf]

That seems more plausible, except that Fritz was playing fast and loose with the evidence from the time he got to the TSBD. Maybe he got the word from LBJ when he  was at Parkland.

AF1 had air to ground telephone service but it wouldn't be LBJ himself making the call to Fritz,  it'd be one of his minions calling DA Wade or Chief Curry, who'd then pass the word on down. I imagine cops like Fritz and prosecutors like Wade played fast and loose with the evidence all the time, this is just the one case people paid attention to.
Speaking of the District Attorney, I think the Armstrong collection has the interview with ADA Alexander, present at the first day interrogation at least, where he says that not only did Fritz not take notes in the room neither did the FBI agents. According to Alexander, the Bureau then had a policy of agents not taking notes while a suspect was being interviewed. Agents would work in teams, one would listen a while, go outside and write out everything he remembered and when he returned the other agents would switch off and to leave to write out his notes (was the agent outside still eavesdropping while writing? who knows).

That may be even more absurd than not recording the interrogations. In any event, this is a problem that technology is in the process of solving.  Its inevitable that police officers in the future will be required to wear something like Google Glass to record interactions with witnesses and suspects. That would have been a nice thing to have in 1963. )

[GuestGuest]

When did LBJ hear about the arrest of Oswald? Fritz was monkeying with the TSDB evidence before Oswald was arrested. Just seems like it would make more sense if he knew before hand his job was to frame Oswald. He must have gotten to Truly while he was still in the TSBD, and he had to get to Baker pretty quick. Also there's the business with the clip/no clip, in the M-C/Mauser/Enfield. Also the backyard photos were created before the assassination and it would seem they were done by the DPD. I think Curry was not in on it, but Fritz was. Much like McCone wasn't in the loop but Helms was.

[Hasan Yusuf]

I'm not sure a well trained sniper would be eating fried chicken a few minutes before he was to take a difficult shot.
 
It could have been his accomplice who was eating the fried chicken. To be honest, it's not something I firmly believe in. But it's one option I would keep in mind.

As to Williams', Norman's, Jarman's and Given's testimony, I give little credence to any of it made after 11,22,63. They were clearly coached/coerced to say whatever, and no doubt got confused as to what they were supposed to say when. Williams said he was on the 6th floor after 12:00 noon, in his statement on the 22, and I tend to believe that.

Gordon, the only first day statement from Williams I am aware of is his 22/11/63 affidavit to the DPD; in which he made no mention of being on the sixth floor with his lunch.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0503-001.gif

I also believe Williams' testimony about his lunch was simply absurd.

Mr. BALL.

What did you have in your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

I had a chicken sandwich.

Mr. BALL.

Describe the sandwich. What did it have in it besides chicken?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Well, it just had chicken in it. Chicken on the bone.

Mr. BALL.

Chicken on the bone?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Yes.

Mr. BALL.

The chicken was not boned?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

It was just chicken on the bone. Just plain old chicken.

Mr. BALL.

Did it have bread around it?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Yes, it did.


It sounds to me like he's saying he had boned chicken in his sandwich, which, of course, is completely absurd. For a long time, I also believed Williams was on the sixth floor. However, it was Greg's great work which changed my mind.

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t34-was-eddie-piper-on-the-6th-floor?highlight=was+eddie

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I give little credence to any of it made after 11,22,63. They were clearly coached/coerced to say whatever, and no doubt got confused as to what they were supposed to say when. Williams said he was on the 6th floor after 12:00 noon, in his statement on the 22, and I tend to believe that.

Williams placed himself on the 5th floor. By your own words, you should be on our side of the argument.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/05/0504-001.gif

[James DiEugenio]

To me the highlight of Sean's work, or at least one of them, is the prima facie case he makes for Fritz altering the Bookhout notes of what Oswald said.

I think that is of prime importance. Because those original notes put Oswald where the photo seems to say he is.

The other thing is, all the corroborative evidence he has brought to bear for Oswald being on the first floor from newspaper accounts.

At the very least, he has forever blown up the whole Oswald/Truly/Baker meet up at the soda machine.  Which people like Lifton bought into.   And BTW, Baker was a lead off witness for Bugliosi at that phony trial in London.

Beyond that, he has shown just how fast the frame up was in the works and what a totally and outrageously rotten cop Fritz was.  If you recall Orson Welles in Touch of Evil, Fritz makes him look like a neophyte.  From the moment he got on the scene, Fritz was making up and distorting evidence.  WHat a piece of crud.

[GuestGuest]

I see there is no end to Gary Mack talking out of his rear end.

Mack is now claiming that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

Has he not thought about the slight problem with this?  

Lovelady and Prayer Man are both present in the doorway in the Weigman film.

Should we be surprised that Gary Mack et al will throw any old piece of garbage out there in an effort to dismiss this before they would contemplate admitting even the remotest possibility that it is Lee Harvey Oswald stood on the steps?

What I would give to know exactly what is going through his head right now.

[Albert Rossi]

Lee, could it be that his strategy is simply to play on the potential familiarity that the general public may have with the hoary Altgens photo debate in order to lead them to think it's just more of the same and thus kill their curiosity?  Mack and McAdams, after all, are not talking to the community of experts; their concern is with the general public.

[GuestGuest]

Lee, could it be that his strategy is simply to play on the potential familiarity that the general public may have with the hoary Altgens photo debate in order to lead them to think it's just more of the same and thus kill their curiosity?  Mack and McAdams, after all, are not talking to the community of experts; their concern is with the general public.

Very true, Albert.

I mentioned a week or so ago that it would not surprise me if the Ralph Cinque "doorman" circus was originally planned and put together as a way to diminish Sean's work should the real and honest research community become drawn into it as an idea.

Sean's been trying to generate interest in Prayer Man for a few years and now, more than ever, I find the Fetzer-Cinque snake oil pitch even more suspect than I did when they first tried to ram it down everyone's throats at the start of 2012.

I agree with you completely that we are less of a concern to Mack than public opinion and his museum's revenue but he is obsessed with us and constantly monitors each and every forum and newsgroup because he knows each and every day we piece more and more of the truth together.

100-200 years down the line there will be historians who look upon the likes of Mack with utter contempt.  I'm sure of it.

[StanDane]

I see there is no end to Gary Mack talking out of his rear end.

Mack is now claiming that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

Has he not thought about the slight problem with this?  

Lovelady and Prayer Man are both present in the doorway in the Weigmann film.

Should we be surprised that Gary Mack et al will throw any old piece of garbage out there in an effort to dismiss this before they would contemplate admitting even the remotest possibility that it is Lee Harvey Oswald stood on the steps?

What I would give to know exactly what is going through his head right now.

Robin Unger's Darnell frames from JFK The Movie Blu-Ray version show Prayer Man with much improved clarity.  I wonder if the Blu-Ray version also has the Weigman film as well. This might provide an even clearer picture of Lovelady standing next to Prayer Man. It probably wouldn't change the minds of certain diehards who are hooked on their pet theories regardless of inconvenient facts to the contrary, but it could further strengthen the case that Prayer Man is indeed Oswald for those with open minds.

To find out, I just ordered the Blu-Ray version. If I see anything interesting after I view it, I'll bring it up.

[GuestGuest]

I see there is no end to Gary Mack talking out of his rear end.

Mack is now claiming that Prayer Man is Billy Lovelady.

Has he not thought about the slight problem with this?  

Lovelady and Prayer Man are both present in the doorway in the Weigmann film.

Should we be surprised that Gary Mack et al will throw any old piece of garbage out there in an effort to dismiss this before they would contemplate admitting even the remotest possibility that it is Lee Harvey Oswald stood on the steps?

What I would give to know exactly what is going through his head right now.

Robin Unger's Darnell frames from JFK The Movie Blu-Ray version show Prayer Man with much improved clarity.  I wonder if the Blu-Ray version also has the Weigman film as well. This might provide an even clearer picture of Lovelady standing next to Prayer Man. It probably wouldn't change the minds of certain diehards who are hooked on their pet theories regardless of inconvenient facts to the contrary, but it could further strengthen the case that Prayer Man is indeed Oswald for those with open minds.

To find out, I just ordered the Blu-Ray version. If I see anything interesting after I view it, I'll bring it up.

I have the JFK Blu-Ray here and have been meaning to throw it on to have a look through over the last few days.

I also have a few of the History Channel and Discovery programmes recorded in HD on my satellite TV box.  Never really gone through them to see if anything jumps out.

I know Max Holland made HD scans of the Hughes film for his crappy programme to pitch his crappy ideas but does anybody know if he created HD scans of Darnell or Weigmann?

Although his traffic light theory was complete bollocks, I will admit that his high definition version of the Hughes film did impress me.

EDIT: Just checked and discovered The Lost Bullet (that remains lost even after hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent looking for it) was recorded on my satellite box.  No Weigman or Darnell films.  The three HD scanned films are Nix, Zapruder and Hughes.  Interesting that in the Hughes blow up Holland uses in the documentary, I can see no signs whatsoever of Bonnie Ray Williams in the 5th floor window.

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