"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Looks like my video analysis will have to wait until tomorrow. Ran out of time today.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article dated November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.

I saw that, too. But as far as I know, there is no other reference anywhere to "newspaper wrapping", and bearing in mind this was Nov 27, and we're talking about converging stories, I would expect this to have been an earlier entry. On that basis, I'd have to write it off as just genuine error. It is the type of thing though, that we need to look out for  as potentially important or telling.

I'm sure Sean and others over there are following this thread just as some of us are following the one there. In any case, it's hard to imagine anyone with his eye for detail would have missed the reference.

Welcome aboard, Stan. Just the fact that you picked up on it tells me you're the type of contributor we want here.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Hey, I thought of something that's shinier than an apple.

Someone would flash a small mirror from a building across the street to let him know when the car was approaching. Two flashes would signal that he should start firing.
http://www.trutv.com/conspiracy/assassinations/jfk-trail/luis-castillo.html

Good thought -- but perhaps too dull?

[beowulf]

Good thought -- but perhaps too dull?


Unless Wiegman was filming through a sniper scope, the beam wasn't being aimed directly at him.  If the mirror was at an oblique angle to the camera, it'd be much duller than full on.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Good thought -- but perhaps too dull?


Unless Wiegman was filming through a sniper scope, the beam wasn't being aimed directly at him.  If the mirror was at an oblique angle to the camera, it'd be much duller than full on.

Yeah. Good point.

Okay. I'm willing to add "mirror" to the list of possibilities.

[James DiEugenio]

I actually think the Cut Rite wrapping paper is a real good guess.

[dwdunn(akaDan)]

Lee Farley:

How do you know I meant you?

Funny. I need to reevaluate my interpretation of the list, as I did seem to jump to a conclusion without adquate evidence.
 
And Jim, it is an impressive list and I'm glad Tom reminded us that Gary Loughran should be on the list of outcasts too. Might well have been the most important "attacker" of all.
 
As much as I'd like to suggest a symposium to determine if Lee really did mean me, I'll instead create no more diversion here.

[GuestGuest]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

[ianlloyd]

Is it possible that he bought the camera as a used camera on its own?

[greg_parkerAdmin]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

one thing bothering me about a camera... it points to Oswald knowing the motorcade was coming past - which is contraindicated by testimony that he was asking what was going on outside. 

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. 

Either Oswald somehow missed reading about it, despite apparently reading the papers daily, or he was trying to portray a lack of knowledge as part of some future defense.

[GuestGuest]

Is it possible that he bought the camera as a used camera on its own?

It's possible, Ian.  I'll have to see if there is anything more specific within the testimony as to how he acquired the Imperial Reflex camera.

We are left with a bit of a conundrum concerning this.  Listed among Oswald's possessions was an Ansco Flash Unit designated CE137. 

There was also a camera listed in his belongings designated CE136:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0268a.htm

and also a camera case (leather) designated CE138.  

Marina was asked about all three exhibits during her testimony.  CE139 for the record was the Mannlicher Carcano rifle and it's a nice exhibit to throw in immediately after discussion of what on the surface appears to be some inconsequential camera equipment because its probably one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case.  A little attention diversion strategy?

Marina when questioned about the Ansco Flash Unit CE137 said she had never seen it before because it looked "new."  Take note here: she doesn't say he never owned a flash unit, just that she had never seen this one before because it looked "new." 

Go to the Warren Commission Exhibits here:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/wc/contents_wh16.htm


Look for CE137. 


Here's a clue; it isn't there.   Now, ain't that a kick in the head?

Anyone know where the flash unit disappeared to?   

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=143021

[GuestGuest]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

one thing bothering me about a camera... it points to Oswald knowing the motorcade was coming past - which is contraindicated by testimony that he was asking what was going on outside. 

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. 

Either Oswald somehow missed reading about it, despite apparently reading the papers daily, or he was trying to portray a lack of knowledge as part of some future defense.

I have big problems with Jarman's recollections, Greg.  This was supposed to be early in the morning when he saw Oswald and had this chat and I don't know about you but I don't think people were lined up outside the TSBD any earlier than 12:00pm.

I have a hard time believing Oswald did not know the motorcade was going to ride by.  Distancing himself, it's possible, but to rely on Jarman for this, I just don't buy it.  The Presidential visit must have been a HUGE talking point in the TSBD that week.  In fact, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if talk of shooting him or at least the possibility of him getting shot had gone on in many groups.

I really don't think somebody could have remained ignorant of the motorcade or its route.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Oh about the Marrion Baker video (London mock trial testimony) I posted earlier.
1. He doesn't remember what Oswald was wearing;
2. When Gerry Spence throws the kitchen Cinque at him and shows Baker the Doorman picture (i.e. Billy Lovelady), Baker forthrightly says it looks like Oswald. I got the sense he thought it might actually be Oswald.  Funny how all the attention on Doorman has distracted people from noticing the guy standing right behind him.
I await Hasan's video analysis. )

Watching the way in which Baker shifts his weight, and listening to the nervousness in his voice, it's apparent to me that he is lying about the second floor encounter.

[ianlloyd]

Hi Hasan,

I've watched various filmed interviews of Baker over the years and always found him to be appearing apprehensive and looking nervous and uncomfortable. Always made me doubt what he was saying.

But I'm no human behaviour expert, psychologist, psychiatrist or whatever...

[ianlloyd]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

Would a flash only last a fraction of a second, not a few seconds as it appears PM's "light" does?

Was there a "night light" type attachment available for the Imperial Reflex? (Then again, why would anyone have bothered taking one if they intended filming the motorcade in the middle of the day?).

[GuestGuest]

,

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

Would a flash only last a fraction of a second, not a few seconds as it appears PM's "light" does?

Was there a "night light" type attachment available
for the Imperial Reflex? (Then again, why would anyone have bothered taking one if they intended filming the motorcade in the middle of the day?).

I don't think the flash in Weigman is from the burst of light from a bulb, Ian.  I think it could be light reflecting back from the aluminium bowl that that bulb went into.  The round light spot in the Prayer Man film is quite dull.  Judging from the size of the spot in the film I think the flash unit is a good contender all round. 

Why would he take the flash unit?  Good question.  We know it was raining in the morning.  Quite overcast.  Light may not have been great especially around the TSBD which can be really shady with the trees dotted about.  Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Don't you find it peculiar that the flash unit that was allegedly found is not in the exhibits?

Remind anyone of the Minox camera charade?

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0269a.htm

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hi Hasan,

I've watched various filmed interviews of Baker over the years and always found him to be appearing apprehensive and looking nervous and uncomfortable. Always made me doubt what he was saying.

But I'm no human behaviour expert, psychologist, psychiatrist or whatever...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Ian. I'm not expert either, but it seems obvious to me that he was lying.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Oh about the Marrion Baker video (London mock trial testimony) I posted earlier.
1. He doesn't remember what Oswald was wearing;
2. When Gerry Spence throws the kitchen Cinque at him and shows Baker the Doorman picture (i.e. Billy Lovelady), Baker forthrightly says it looks like Oswald. I got the sense he thought it might actually be Oswald.  Funny how all the attention on Doorman has distracted people from noticing the guy standing right behind him.
I await Hasan's video analysis. )

Watching the way in which Baker shifts his weight, and listening to the nervousness in his voice, it's apparent to me that he is lying about the second floor encounter.

It's the only time he appears to be nervous with Spence.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

one thing bothering me about a camera... it points to Oswald knowing the motorcade was coming past - which is contraindicated by testimony that he was asking what was going on outside. 

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. 

Either Oswald somehow missed reading about it, despite apparently reading the papers daily, or he was trying to portray a lack of knowledge as part of some future defense.

I have big problems with Jarman's recollections, Greg.  This was supposed to be early in the morning when he saw Oswald and had this chat and I don't know about you but I don't think people were lined up outside the TSBD any earlier than 12:00pm.

I have a hard time believing Oswald did not know the motorcade was going to ride by.  Distancing himself, it's possible, but to rely on Jarman for this, I just don't buy it.  The Presidential visit must have been a HUGE talking point in the TSBD that week.  In fact, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if talk of shooting him or at least the possibility of him getting shot had gone on in many groups.

I really don't think somebody could have remained ignorant of the motorcade or its route.

I agree - almost impossible to imagine he was unaware of it.

On Jarman - if it was only his WC testimony, I agree. But Norman backs it up for the HSCA. There appears to be little motivation for Norman to lie so long after the fact.

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians? 


Maxwell: Right. 


Norman: He did like this: "pew". 


Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?


Norman: Right
http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/uploads/2/5/1/4/2514550/6782343_orig.jpg

If it happened, my money is that it was much closer to lunch time - about the time he is discussing lunch with Piper...

[greg_parkerAdmin]

FWIW

The Imperial Duo 620 camera did come with the flash unit as standard in the box.

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/x/html/page_standard.php?id_appareil=795

Strange then that the flash unit was never found in LHO's possessions.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57781&relPageId=73 


http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=713595 

Lee,

one thing bothering me about a camera... it points to Oswald knowing the motorcade was coming past - which is contraindicated by testimony that he was asking what was going on outside. 

Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all. 

Either Oswald somehow missed reading about it, despite apparently reading the papers daily, or he was trying to portray a lack of knowledge as part of some future defense.

I have big problems with Jarman's recollections, Greg.  This was supposed to be early in the morning when he saw Oswald and had this chat and I don't know about you but I don't think people were lined up outside the TSBD any earlier than 12:00pm.

I have a hard time believing Oswald did not know the motorcade was going to ride by.  Distancing himself, it's possible, but to rely on Jarman for this, I just don't buy it.  The Presidential visit must have been a HUGE talking point in the TSBD that week.  In fact, it certainly wouldn't surprise me if talk of shooting him or at least the possibility of him getting shot had gone on in many groups.

I really don't think somebody could have remained ignorant of the motorcade or its route.

I agree - almost impossible to imagine he was unaware of it.

On Jarman - if it was only his WC testimony, I agree. But Norman backs it up for the HSCA. There appears to be little motivation for Norman to lie so long after the fact.

Norman: No, I don't see him when he came in the building to work. I mean, you know, he was coming to work. There's one thing I do recall now was when he ask us what was everybody so excited about the President coming to town. Then he turn around to leave, you know how a kid would do if he's playing cowboys and indians? 


Maxwell: Right. 


Norman: He did like this: "pew". 


Maxwell: Indicating that he reached like he was drawing two guns?


Norman: Right
http://www.reopenkennedycase.net/uploads/2/5/1/4/2514550/6782343_orig.jpg

If it happened, my money is that it was much closer to lunch time - about the time he is discussing lunch with Piper...

It's also possible either Jarman or Norman misremembered a crucial (but only in hindsight) part of the conversation, pr their were two separate conversations.

Jarman has Oswald talking about excitement outside. Norman seems to have him referring to excitement from other employees inside. 

You're right, btw - it would have been a huge talking point. But Truly claimed he heard no one talking about it all week!

[Hasan Yusuf]

I would take what Norman told the HSCA with a huge chunk of salt, Greg. This is from his November 26, 1963, FBI interview:
 
"He [Norman] further stated he cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository during Friday, November 22, 1963"
 
The interview can be found here:
 
http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/
 
Norman verified that he was interviewed by Keutzer during his WC testimony, but couldn't recall his name. The man's memory had a way of "improving" over time. I also don't see any reason why Keutzer and the FBI would make this up about Norman.

[GuestGuest]

In "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" EF post 562, Sean Murphy attaches a New York Herald Tribune newspaper article dated November 27, 1963. This quote caught my eye:
 
"He was seen carrying a large object wrapped in newspapers, presumably the murder weapon, into the warehouse the morning of the assassination."
 
This may mean nothing, but with all of the contradictory reports and affidavits in the early days that were "refined" to converge on the official story, was this yet another example?
 
PS: Newbie here. I'm not a researcher, just somebody interested who appreciates the great work you guys do. I wanted to pass this observation along to Sean and the EF, but they are not taking new members.

Hi Stan,

Welcome on board.  

I'll pass your observations onto Sean but rest assured he does read this forum too.

I remember my first ever post to the EF and was incredibly nervous as to how I would be received.  Within a week I was accused of being a plant by one of the craziest people I've ever had the misfortune to converse with, got dozens of creepy PM's from the same nut job, brought down the wrath of Jack White, and had to decipher some of the most bizzarre messages I've ever read from David Healy which I guessed at the time were slagging me off.  It was a baptism of fire and things haven't changed since then either.  

Good to have you here

Lee

[beowulf]

I do like how Sean says something apparently outrageous, makes a solid case case for it and uses that as a base camp to reload  for something else outrageous, rinse and repeat.  If this journey ends with Sean laying this all at the feet of Lady Nhu, DiEugenio is going to be pissed. )
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/11/21

Since it appears one of the side effects of the police amending reality was it led to people accusing Marrion Baker--who that day was definitely the most on the ball lawman local or federal-- of being a dope for letting Oswald escape off the back stairway, and implicitly putting Officer Tippit's death on his shoulders.  From President Johnson on down, proving Oswald acted alone became a national security issue (if it could be pinned on the Russians or Cubans, accurately or by false flag, it'd lead to war).  Sometimes you have to go with the flow and even if he wasn't coerced (e.g. play along or find a new career), I can't blame Baker for getting with the program.

Once Sean has completely sketched out his theory, he should contact Baker's family, share the piece with them and ask for their comments.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/DallasMorningNews/obituary.aspx?n=Marrion-Lewis-Baker&pid=150224176

Baker lived with this for 48 years, I can't imagine he didn't give the unedited version to his family and I bet they haven't seen Gerda's merged GIF, showing Baker hauling ass pistol drawn, like a boss, while everyone around him was in a fog.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I would take what Norman told the HSCA with a huge chunk of salt, Greg. This is from his November 26, 1963, FBI interview:
 
"He [Norman] further stated he cannot recall whether he saw Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository during Friday, November 22, 1963"
 
The interview can be found here:
 
http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/
 
Norman verified that he was interviewed by Keutzer during his WC testimony, but couldn't recall his name. The man's memory had a way of "improving" over time. I also don't see any reason why Keutzer and the FBI would make this up about Norman.

Okay. Where do we stand? Take Jarman with a grain of salt because he said Oswald asked about people milling outside too early for too much milling to be taking place, and also take Norman with a grain of salt because his HSCA testimony is at odds with what he told the WC.

Yet those stories are mutually corroborating and go to Oswald's innocence - which I add only by way of saying it was certainly not testimony coerced by authorities. That leaves corrupted / conflated memories, or it really happened.

Oswald was in the habit of shooting with his finger and saying "pew, pew" cowboy style. 

Mr. Le BLANC - Well, toward the last it be n to get pretty regular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thing I recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just [demonstrating] just like a-kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he used his finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow" and I used to look at him, and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!" 


There is evidence in the 26 volumes that this is a habit that actually went back to childhood. Norman was not making it up.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I do like how Sean says something apparently outrageous, makes a solid case case for it and uses that as a base camp to reload  for something else outrageous, rinse and repeat.  If this journey ends with Sean laying this all at the feet of Lady Nhu, DiEugenio is going to be pissed. )
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/11/21

It's like all those old serials I listened to on the radio with cliffhanger endings - usually with a twist or two.

And we still need to talk about Dougherty.  

I might start calling that a catch -phrase!

Since it appears one of the side effects of the police amending reality was it led to people accusing Marrion Baker--who that day was definitely the most on the ball lawman local or federal-- of being a dope for letting Oswald escape off the back stairway, and implicitly putting Officer Tippit's death on his shoulders.  From President Johnson on down, proving Oswald acted alone became a national security issue (if it could be pinned on the Russians or Cubans, accurately or by false flag, it'd lead to war).  Sometimes you have to go with the flow and even if he wasn't coerced (e.g. play along or find a new career), I can't blame Baker for getting with the program.

Once Sean has completely sketched out his theory, he should contact Baker's family, share the piece with them and ask for their comments.
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/DallasMorningNews/obituary.aspx?n=Marrion-Lewis-Baker&pid=150224176

Baker lived with this for 48 years, I can't imagine he didn't give the unedited version to his family and I bet they haven't seen Gerda's merged GIF, showing Baker hauling ass pistol drawn, like a boss, while everyone around him was in a fog.

I think that is a splendid idea!

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