"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[beowulf]

1) you need to read Brothers. Bobby no longer had any real power. And your view is anachronistic. The world was not like this back then. Times were much different. It's like the guy I saw who posted on another forum as though everyone on the knoll had phone cameras.
That's where the Garrison quote is from (I should have included link).
http://books.google.com/books?id=wZHBjw2YRrcC&pg=PT328&lpg=PT328&dq#v

Of course he had real power, he was attorney general and it was a year before a general election The AG has authority to appoint a special prosecutor, nothing anachronistic about it. There were no camera phones in 1963, the first special prosecutor was appointed in the 1920s. What's more, as the brother of the slain president, its not like LBJ could have fired him for taking action-- that might have been the one way Barry Goldwater could have won the 1964 election.

It may have been against RFK's own personal interest to exercise that power, true, but that's a pretty weak excuse when it was his own brother's brains that were blown out. A more charitable explanation, I suppose, is that Bob Kennedy's grief blinded him to his duty.

2) I'm glad you are sure that by the time Tippit was shot everything was cleared out of there. Did you do a sweep afterwards? Inventory? Check it against the list the conspirators had?  I mean, if they couldn't complete their getaway for the crime of the century in 49 minutes, what kind of pros were they?

You're being sarcastic I know, but you're picking this up from the wrong end. The four men I'm aware of who came across fake SS agents in and around Dealey Plaza (Smith, Harkness, Summers, Arnold) all did so prior to 1pm, I don't know of any such sightings after that.
http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2009/08/phony-secret-service-agents.html

Murderers have a well documented proclivity to flee the scene of the crime. What evidence is there that  JFK's murderers stuck around for at least another 49 minutes?

[GuestGuest]

I think they both wanted to be rid of Oswald AND get the cops out of Dealey; Secret Service credentials aren't enough; there's people and weapons and who-knows-what-else which have to be moved, ops who have to make themselves scarce. Nothing could have been  more convenient than the evacuation of cops from Dealey; no pesky searching for evidence, no pesky dusting for fingerprints. I'm with Duke on this one.

If they were smart they looked like men in suits, in a sea of men in suits, and if it took them longer than the 40 minutes from the time of the assassination to the time of the Tippit shooting, to get out of there, they probably would have been caught.

[Redfern]

just to respond to something earlier, about whether Tippit was supposed to kill Oswald - Duke Lane's theory, which makes sense to me, was that the killing of Tippit was intended to clear the cops out of Dealey plaza; and help everyone to get away (and remember that they never sealed off the Book Depository).

I might be in a minority, but I don't believe the circumstances surrounding the assassination and the course of events in Oak Cliff point to ultra-sophisticated planning.

The sniper on the 6th floor broke two golden rules - he allowed himself to be seen by several witnesses below and his escape route was perilous given the location of the stairs and elevators in the TSBD. The behaviour of others in Dealey Plaza (especially, TUM and DCM but also the two men beside Emmet Hudson) was risky in relation to the prospect of arrest or being photographed.

Sean's case that Oswald was just outside the TSBD doors indicates that conspirators could not have guaranteed that he would not be photographed and that they therefore relied on luck. (Of course, it also undermines the argument that Oswald was an active member of the plot.)


I have the same impression of Oak Cliff. It appears Tippit's murderer walked to the scene from several blocks to the east. Tippit had a car and a revolver and was not at a natural disadvantage. Again, there is a large element of unpredictability here.

Yes, Tippit's murder would clearly draw resources from Dealey Plaza but that does not mean it was planned as such. The wallet with Oswald+Hidell ID suggests that it was either a hastily improvised Plan B due to JD taking cold feet or messing up or that there were two factions within the group of plotters.

[GuestGuest]

just to respond to something earlier, about whether Tippit was supposed to kill Oswald - Duke Lane's theory, which makes sense to me, was that the killing of Tippit was intended to clear the cops out of Dealey plaza; and help everyone to get away (and remember that they never sealed off the Book Depository).

I might be in a minority, but I don't believe the circumstances surrounding the assassination and the course of events in Oak Cliff point to ultra-sophisticated planning.

The sniper on the 6th floor broke two golden rules - he allowed himself to be seen by several witnesses below and his escape route was perilous given the location of the stairs and elevators in the TSBD. The behaviour of others in Dealey Plaza (especially, TUM and DCM but also the two men beside Emmet Hudson) was risky in relation to the prospect of arrest or being photographed.

Sean's case that Oswald was just outside the TSBD doors indicates that conspirators could not have guaranteed that he would not be photographed and that they therefore relied on luck. (Of course, it also undermines the argument that Oswald was an active member of the plot.)


I have the same impression of Oak Cliff. It appears Tippit's murderer walked to the scene from several blocks to the east. Tippit had a car and a revolver and was not at a natural disadvantage. Again, there is a large element of unpredictability here.

Yes, Tippit's murder would clearly draw resources from Dealey Plaza but that does not mean it was planned as such. The wallet with Oswald+Hidell ID suggests that it was either a hastily improvised Plan B due to JD taking cold feet or messing up or that there were two factions within the group of plotters.

To my mind the two "plain clothes men" seen by Mooney on the stairs, Adams on the second floor , and Harkness at the rear entrance, with SS credentials were members of the TSBD shooting team, They apparently had no difficulty slipping out. I think the shooter being seen was deliberate. They wanted to call attention to the 6th floor window as a diversion, and to implicate Oswald. Here's a scary thought. Suppose the man encountered by Baker on the 3rd or 4th floor was "Lee" Oswald? Maybe that's why Truly vouched for him.

[StanDane]

Because of some blurriness and a lack of clear facial features, several people on another forum have derisively referred to Prayer Man as an "unidentifiable mass of pixels."
 
The other day it was reported that a rare image of Abraham Lincoln was discovered in an old Gettysburg photograph:
 
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Will-the-Real-Abraham-Lincoln-Please-Stand-Up-224911272.html?c=y&story=fullstory#the-new-lincoln-photo-click-through-4.jpg
 
While it cannot be proven with absolute certainty that this image some might call an "unidentifiable mass of pixels" is indeed Lincoln, the historian makes very compelling case, considering the known facts about that day and how Lincoln looked just prior to the event. Compelling enough that other experts have come on board and now believe that it's the 16th President of the United States as well. I'm convinced it is.
 
If one understands and considers the context, it's possible to identify certain "masses of pixels" with a high degree of confidence.

[GuestGuest]

IMO badge man is a blurry mass of pixels. PM appears to be the image of a white male that is in no way inconsistent with LHO. What makes it compelling to me is the evidence of the other white male TSBD employees' where abouts. It is either LHO or a stranger, and it seems highly unlikely to me that it could be a stranger.

[John Mooney]

It's looks like Oswald.

It's where Oswald said he was.

He's at the back and in the shadows and people have their attention focused elsewhere so no one is going to notice him.

It fits with first day witness statements.

It makes sense that he wasn't actually hiding out the way (how to make a patsy suspicious "hide, it'll be fine").

I'm a believer.

[beowulf]

Meanwhile back at the Hall of Justice,
Why is Bill Kelly going on about Alfred Goldberg coming up with the 2nd floor lunchroom story?Wait, I thought  the 2nd floor story was the rock upon which BK's church was built, is he now conceding that someone invented it?

Goldberg was a DOD historian tasked with turning WC testimony, exhibits and affidavits into a prose narrative. The cake was already baked by the time it got to Goldberg.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Meanwhile back at the Hall of Justice,
Why is Bill Kelly going on about Alfred Goldberg coming up with the 2nd floor lunchroom story?Wait, I thought  the 2nd floor story was the rock upon which BK's church was built, is he now conceding that someone invented it?

Goldberg was a DOD historian tasked with turning WC testimony, exhibits and affidavits into a prose narrative. The cake was already baked by the time it got to Goldberg.

Indeed so, Mr B. Goldberg wasn't the Oswald choreographer who had the man sitting, standing, leaning and doing an Irish Jig on Kennedy's imagined grave.

[GuestGuest]

BK has so much invested in the lunch room story exonerating LHO, he can't look at Sean's work objectively.

[GuestGuest]

Because of some blurriness and a lack of clear facial features, several people on another forum have derisively referred to Prayer Man as an "unidentifiable mass of pixels."
 
The other day it was reported that a rare image of Abraham Lincoln was discovered in an old Gettysburg photograph:
 
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Will-the-Real-Abraham-Lincoln-Please-Stand-Up-224911272.html?c=y&story=fullstory#the-new-lincoln-photo-click-through-4.jpg
 
While it cannot be proven with absolute certainty that this image some might call an "unidentifiable mass of pixels" is indeed Lincoln, the historian makes very compelling case, considering the known facts about that day and how Lincoln looked just prior to the event. Compelling enough that other experts have come on board and now believe that it's the 16th President of the United States as well. I'm convinced it is.
 
If one understands and considers the context, it's possible to identify certain "masses of pixels" with a high degree of confidence.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/Interactive_Seeking_Abraham_Lincoln_at_the_Gettysburg_Address.html
Cropped screen shot converted to a .jpg via photo shop, no enhancement, magnification, or editing whatsoever:


http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&p=277102




http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354&p=276645

[James DiEugenio]

But geez, when you go to Jean Davison as an authority with help from DVP?

Whew.

I agree about Goldberg and WInnacker.  THey were brought in when the story was essentially done.  And still, Baker could not keep the story straight.

Hmm.  Maybe because it didn't happen?

[GuestGuest]

Baker sees Oswald in the doorway. Truly vouches for him. Maybe Oswald has a coke. All that is needed to keep from giving Oswald an alibi is to move this encounter upstairs. First they tried the 4th floor but when that didn't work they went to the lunch room. Then they got Reid to change her floor, and voila. Not really that much work IMO. And there is plenty of evidence of witness coercion, and falsifying of statements to make that more than plausible, IMO.

[beowulf]

And there is plenty of evidence of witness coercion, and falsifying of statements to make that more than plausible, IMO.

Right, if the FBI was willing to suborn perjury from White House aides like Dave Powers and Kenny O'Donnell  (as former Speaker Tip O'Neill recounted in his memoirs), its astonishing anyone thinks they'd hesitate to do likewise with a motorcycle cop, a secretary or a manual laborer.

Incidentally, if RFK did care enough to jump into the case with both feet, affidavits from Powers and O'Donnell that aver to hearing shots from two directions would be enough to establish federal jurisdiction for conspiracy to deny civil rights. Nothing anachronistic about that, a few years later the DOJ prosecuted the killing of civil rights workers in Mississippi with this law, which dates back to the Reconstruction.
http://atyourlibrary.org/culture/murder-civil-right-workers-while-registering-voters-shocks-nation-1964

[Goban_Saor]

And there is plenty of evidence of witness coercion, and falsifying of statements to make that more than plausible, IMO.

Right, if the FBI was willing to suborn perjury from White House aides like Dave Powers and Kenny O'Donnell  (as former Speaker Tip O'Neill recounted in his memoirs), its astonishing anyone thinks they'd hesitate to do likewise with a motorcycle cop, a secretary or a manual laborer.

Incidentally, if RFK did care enough to jump into the case with both feet, affidavits from Powers and O'Donnell that aver to hearing shots from two directions would be enough to establish federal jurisdiction for conspiracy to deny civil rights. Nothing anachronistic about that, a few years later the DOJ prosecuted the killing of civil rights workers in Mississippi with this law, which dates back to the Reconstruction.
http://atyourlibrary.org/culture/murder-civil-right-workers-while-registering-voters-shocks-nation-1964

I have seen various reasons given as to why RFK did not use his position as US Attorney General to have his brother’s assassination investigated. As well as the usual reasons cited – being immobilised by grief; fear of his or his brother’s alleged questionable actions, political or extra political, being exposed; biding his time until he became president – there is another  possible reason that meshes with the last one here mentioned.

This reason has to do with the difference between power and authority as I understand these terms. One can have authority in a formal, legal sense without the power to enforce that authority.

If RFK knew the assassination was a coup d'état he also knew his authority as attorney general was worthless as far as investigating the coup d'état was concerned. The diabolical entities who murdered the ostensibly most powerful man in the world to seize power for themselves were hardly likely to allow a subordinate, now isolated, call them to account. When you murder the US president other murders after that are matters of mere routine detail – as the pattern of 1960s US political assassinations, including that of RFK himself, seems to illustrate. 

[beowulf]

"If RFK knew the assassination was a coup d'état he also knew his authority as attorney general was worthless as far as investigating the coup d'état was concerned. The diabolical entities who murdered the ostensibly most powerful man in the world to seize power for themselves were hardly likely to allow a subordinate, now isolated, call them to account."

Have you ever read Edmund Morris's wonderful Theodore Roosevelt biography triology? Now that was a man. He was too wealthy to be bribed, too happily married to be seduced and too fearless to be be afraid of anything or anyone. More than once, he flipped the script on men who thought him checkmated by going to the press and riding a wave of public outrage to victory. One can only imagine how Teddy Roosevelt would have reacted if he were Attorney General and it was HIS brother who was assassinated.  Insofar as Robert Kennedy fell short of what the man on Mt. Rushmore would have done, I think he did a disservice to his country and himself.
Edit: Roosevelt's fictional alter ego is, of course, Bruce Wayne.
http://chronicle.com/blognetwork/edgeofthewest/2008/07/27/teddy-in-tights/

[GuestGuest]

If RFK had launched an investigation as AG he would have been taking on the same powerful forces that killed his brother, and marginalized the Garrison investigation as well as killing Doctor King. No doubt his career would be destroyed in the process and very likely the investigation would have failed. This would have set things back even farther. Not to mention the very real danger to his family. His best chance was to gain as much power for himself, before he attempted to take them on. That's what he did, and that's why they killed him too.

[Hasan Yusuf]

I don’t recall if this has already been pointed out (as I am too tired right now), but according to WCD 5, detective (T.L) Baker told the FBI that Marion Baker accosted Oswald in the “company snack bar” on the second floor, and on the following page, Baker claims in his interview (dated November 29, 1963) that he saw Oswald on the second floor; but there’s nothing about seeing him in the lunchroom.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=343

[GuestGuest]

David Von Pein's site, in the video archives section, has Part 6 of the 1964 CBS Special: November 22nd and the Warren Report, which contains the interviews of Marrion Baker and Roy Truly regarding the lunchroom incident. I can't get the link to bring it up, for whatever reason. Baker especially has a look of honesty about him. Worth a look.

I'm heading out tomorrow for a week's vacation in Mother Nature, and will be computer-less.

Cheers!!

[greg_parkerAdmin]

David Von Pein's site, in the video archives section, has Part 6 of the 1964 CBS Special: November 22nd and the Warren Report, which contains the interviews of Marrion Baker and Roy Truly regarding the lunchroom incident. I can't get the link to bring it up, for whatever reason. Baker especially has a look of honesty about him. Worth a look.

I'm heading out tomorrow for a week's vacation in Mother Nature, and will be computer-less.

Cheers!!

Richard, enjoy!

We just arrived back on Wednesday from a similar trip.

Here is the whole special:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSusrBTcgNg&list=PL7A5235CD1E1C670B&index=1

Baker is at about the 52 minute mark.

[beowulf]

No doubt his career would be destroyed in the process and very likely the investigation would have failed. This would have set things back even farther. Not to mention the very real danger to his family. His best chance was to gain as much power for himself, before he attempted to take them on...


I'lll agree with you in so far as that was what Hamlet Kennedy told himself and his courtiers, but he was sadly mistaken. While he was in office he had the high ground, the institutional power of the Attorney General as  the nation's chief law enforcement officer is tremendous. He had 100 times the resources as Jim Garrison's District Attorney office-- ultimately and the political reality was he couldn't be fired.  Out of office, he was a sitting duck.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Here is the whole special:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSusrBTcgNg&list=PL7A5235CD1E1C670B&index=1

Baker is at about the 52 minute mark.

Viewing Baker in the video, it's quite apparent to me that he was nervous while talking about the lunchroom story. He also looks down and to his left when talking, which is a good sign of lying.

[Colin_Crow]

Other signs of lying are coughing, blinking and loss of eyes contact. It is not 100% science though. 

Here is a movie I made to show the timing was fudged if a second floor encounter happened. I think this was made using clips from Executive Action that was made in the TSBD.

https://youtu.be/Ttbrvbe-AX8

[John Mooney]

I don't understand how Baker could have seen Oswald through the door window.

He was trying to get to the roof - right?

The line of sight doesn't work it he's trying to get to the next stairway.



(From Gil Jesus website).

[Colin_Crow]

If it happened the only way I can reconcile that even is to have Oswald going into the vestibule after hearing them ascend the stairs. Then stupidly loiter near the window in the door. It makes some sense to me only if Baker is ahead of Truly and unfamiliar with the unusual staircase. He assumes the door ahead is the way to go. Then stumbles across Oswald in the lunchroom.

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