"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[GuestGuest]

Lee, maybe Frazier went to the basement after the shooting, not to eat his lunch but to turn the power off the elevators?

Sorry, Ray, I completely missed your post.

Truth is that we will probably never know why on earth Frazier went down into the basement after the assassination.  No one with the authority to investigate it seemed bothered to find out or perhaps they did and the information went the same way as his polygraph results.

His sister was the one who caught Adamcik and Rose after they had searched Ruth Paine's house and gave them the brown paper bag story.  My guess is at that exact point Frazier became a suspect and the Irving Police and Dallas Police wanted to get him into custody and I think Randle knew this which is why she sent them on a wild goose chase to Parkland hospital looking for him knowing full well that he wasn't there.

I'm still in two minds whether Randle mentioned any package to Adamcik and Rose.

Once you head into the details of the statements and depositions of Randle and Frazier you begin to see small details not matching that affect the whole story in its early phases.  The original story is that Randle and Frazier's mother saw Oswald looking through the window and asked "who is that" to which Frazier replied "that's Lee."  No mention of Randle opening the kitchen door and watching a suspiciously behaving Oswald place a bag in Frazier's car.  If this happened then it certainly wasn't memorable enough for Randle to mention to Frazier at the time it happened or memorable enough for Frazier to see it and remember it happening.

So instead we are asked to believe a combination of the later statements.  That Randle sees Oswald walking across Westbrook, she said she didn't recognise him in one interview but claims he is carrying a package, she sees him cut across their house in front of her kitchen window.  She turns and opens the kitchen door while Frazier and other family members are sat eating breakfast about three feet away.  Frazier doesn't ask what she is doing, and Randle doesn't tell Frazier "Here's your mate, Wes."  Instead she closes the kitchen door after watching him put a package on the rear seat of the car because she doesn't want him to see her watching what he is doing.

She returns to she kitchen sink and the watches Oswald wave at her.  She is disturbed by this and finds it so frightening that once again she does not turn and say "Here's Lee, Wes."  No.  Instead it is the mother who asks who the boy is looking through the window.

None of it makes any sense.  Do we really believe that Linnie Mae Randle would observe Lee Oswald approaching her property, on her property, and waving through the kitchen window at her and not once say "Hey, Wes, Lee is here"?

But back to the basement.  I haven't got an 'jar of glue' what Frazier was up to but it's certainly another part of the story that makes no sense whatsoever, and is contradicted by other statements of Frazier.

Lee,

I think you have got to the heart of the problem with the whole case. There is virtually nothing that is totally reliable - especially around ground zero. But I suspect you already knew that, given your adventures with buses and random hitch-hikers, and old crones with rooms to rent... 

IIRC it was Richard G who first suggested that Wes was turning off the elevators. I tend to agree. I mean, they stopped - and that seems to have happened while Wes was down there. But you're right - short of a confession, we'll never know for sure.

As I mentioned in my previous post to Stan, Greg, I ain't holding my breath that Frazier will ever tell us what he knows.

He is either a complete innocent (and further victim) in all of this, or he has dirty hands and was used (wittingly or unwittingly) in the events of that day.  I cannot make my mind up which.

On the thread discussing the journey from Irving to the TSBD there is also the 
Edward Shields hearsay to mull over, that Frazier dropped Oswald off at the entrance that morning before parking up and if that is true then we are all barking up the wrong tree.

[GuestGuest]

There has always been one giveaway for me that the interrogation notes are bogus.  Oswald was arrested on suspicion of murdering Tippit.  He was charged with that crime just over five hours after being arrested.  He mentioned in his press conference about being accused of murdering a policeman - but try as I might I've never once been able to find one question asked of Oswald concerning the Tippit murder in any interrogation report or note page .  Not one.  

Do we really believe he wasn't asked a single question about the crime he was originally booked over?  

You know -- that's the first time I seen anyone point this out.


It's almost as if they want us to believe they didn't need to question him on it - it was that open and shut. Yet he obviously was questioned about it - thus his comment to the press. 

The flip side is that all the cops denied they knew the had Kennedy's killer at the time he was arrested. Yet reporter Vic Robertson admitted he knew...

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains [at the Texas Theater] and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President? 
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there.  

  

You're right, Greg.  It's like being locked in an episode of Twin Peaks.  What should be there isn't - what shouldn't be there is - what we need we don't have - what we don't want we have lots of.  It's fucked up.  All of it.  Just when you think you've got something along comes something else to contradict it.  You can only completely solve the case by suffering from cognitive dissonance.  Which explains why the likes of David Von Pein and John McAdams think they have it nailed.

I agree that the impression is given that the Tippit murder was open and shut, but it really wasn't, not at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and seeing as how Gus Rose is on record claiming they didn't even know who they had in the interrogation room then I would expect the first interrogation to focus explicitly on the crime he had been arrested over - the murder of Tippit.  But no, not one question asked about Oswald's whereabouts, whether he has seen Tippit, whether he had been stopped by him, or the classic catch all question "Did you shoot him?"

[James DiEugenio]

Well, I wouldn't be so categorical Lee:

Buell Wesley Frazier is the one single living witness who can blow this thing wide open, but I ain't holding my breath that he ever will.


What about Ruth and Michael Paine?

[GuestGuest]

Well, I wouldn't be so categorical Lee:

Buell Wesley Frazier is the one single living witness who can blow this thing wide open, but I ain't holding my breath that he ever will.


What about Ruth and Michael Paine?

I meant in relation to Prayer Man and the goings on in the TSBD, Jim.  Should have been more specific.

I'll rephrase: Buell Wesley Frazier is the one single living witness who can blow the Prayer Man and TSBD shenanigans wide open.  Ruth and Michael Paine are the two living witnesses who can blow the whole case wide open, but they won't because they are a pair of horrible bastards.

[James DiEugenio]

I agree on both counts.

[GuestGuest]

BWF is indeed an enigma. Not only does he not recall Prayer Man, who he is clearly looking towards during the assassination, he does not recall seeing Officer Marion Baker run up the stairs and past him on Baker's way into the TSBD. Given BWF's position, Baker must have almost run over him.

[Colin_Crow]

BWF is indeed an enigma. Not only does he not recall Prayer Man, who he is clearly looking towards during the assassination, he does not recall seeing Officer Marion Baker run up the stairs and past him on Baker's way into the TSBD. Given BWF's position, Baker must have almost run over him.

Molina and Piper are two others who had trouble recalling Baker. We should be careful in assuming what people saw in those chaotic seconds. From what we see in the PM pictures it may be that PM only came though the door just before the footage and went back inside as Baker is rushing up the steps. It may be that PM was in Frazier's peripheral vision momentarily. 

However, I do believe he would know who PM was. I find it strange that finally Frazier is identified standing exactly where he said he was but when shown the photo by GM he does not identify himself! Sounds like he "doesn't want to go there" and was actually happy to be "in the shadows" all these years after all. A rock better not lifted.

[GuestGuest]

BWF is indeed an enigma. Not only does he not recall Prayer Man, who he is clearly looking towards during the assassination, he does not recall seeing Officer Marion Baker run up the stairs and past him on Baker's way into the TSBD. Given BWF's position, Baker must have almost run over him.

Molina and Piper are two others who had trouble recalling Baker. We should be careful in assuming what people saw in those chaotic seconds. From what we see in the PM pictures it may be that PM only came though the door just before the footage and went back inside as Baker is rushing up the steps. It may be that PM was in Frazier's peripheral vision momentarily. 

However, I do believe he would know who PM was. I find it strange that finally Frazier is identified standing exactly where he said he was but when shown the photo by GM he does not identify himself! Sounds like he "doesn't want to go there" and was actually happy to be "in the shadows" all these years after all. A rock better not lifted.

I sometimes look at the modern day comments of witnesses such as BWF and Clint Hill and wonder if they are trying to get people like you and I to read between the lines. In BWF's case, he does not recall Prayer Man or Oswald on the steps, while at the same time telling us he cannot recall a white helmeted police officer at a dead run who likely almost ran him over. In Clint Hill's case, he still tells listeners he observed a large, gaping wound in the right rear of JFK's head, just as he told the WC, yet in the same breath tells his listeners JFK died as a result of three shots fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Is this their way of trying to arouse our suspicions, without coming right out and saying the WC is full of crap and putting themselves and their families in jeopardy?

[Faroe Islander]

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=32&pos=15
whe was this photo made and who made it ? is it Robin Unger 
It is showing the Prayer Man position and saying that you can not see the PM if he was standing here,

Do any of you know wen this photo is taken and who has taken it ?
Looks like Robin Unger has made some remarks later and the photo is from the Warren Commision ?
Why would anyone take a picture of this area ?

[StanDane]

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=32&pos=15
whe was this photo made and who made it ? is it Robin Unger 
It is showing the Prayer Man position and saying that you can not see the PM if he was standing here,

Do any of you know wen this photo is taken and who has taken it ?
Looks like Robin Unger has made some remarks later and the photo is from the Warren Commision ?
Why would anyone take a picture of this area ?

The photo is part of Warren Commission Document Photos, CD-496, presumably taken shortly after the assassination. These were a large group of pictures taken in various locations throughout the building.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=349590

I followed the ED Prayer Man thread from its inception and I seem to recall seeing this same annotated picture before, but after a quick scan just now, I couldn't spot it there.
 
I would hazard a guess that—while the Prayer Man discussion was in full swing a few months ago—Robin may have marked this photo up to show why Prayer Man would not be visible in Altgen's 6. But that's just a guess. I know Sean Murphy has been on the Prayer Man thing for some time, so maybe this happened earlier.

[Faroe Islander]

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=32&pos=15
whe was this photo made and who made it ? is it Robin Unger 
It is showing the Prayer Man position and saying that you can not see the PM if he was standing here,

Do any of you know wen this photo is taken and who has taken it ?
Looks like Robin Unger has made some remarks later and the photo is from the Warren Commision ?
Why would anyone take a picture of this area ?

The photo is part of Warren Commission Document Photos, CD-496, presumably taken shortly after the assassination. These were a large group of pictures taken in various locations throughout the building.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=349590

I followed the ED Prayer Man thread from its inception and I seem to recall seeing this same annotated picture before, but after a quick scan just now, I couldn't spot it there.
 
I would hazard a guess that—while the Prayer Man discussion was in full swing a few months ago—Robin may have marked this photo up to show why Prayer Man would not be visible in Altgen's 6. But that's just a guess. I know Sean Murphy has been on the Prayer Man thing for some time, so maybe this happened earlier.

Thanks for the info Stan.
The date it was added to RU site was 12 March 2013 before PM really got going.

[James DiEugenio]

By the way, Frazier did say in the London trial with Bugliosi and Spence that he was standing there in the shadows.

He did this because Bugliosi needed him to since Spence was honing in on the Altgens photo as Oswald.

Frazier got up there and said it was Lovelady.

When Spence asked him if this was the first time he said he was there in the alcove, Frazier said it was.

[StanDane]

By the way, Frazier did say in the London trial with Bugliosi and Spence that he was standing there in the shadows.

This was the first version of the Rolling Stones 1966 hit single "Have You Seen Your Mother, Baby, Standing in the Shadow?" Not long after this, they got "leaned on" and revised the tune.
 

[James DiEugenio]

LOL, good one.

[James DiEugenio]

I noted that in Sean's last post he said John McAdams had blocked discussion of Prayer Man on his forum.

Instead, he encouraged discussion of the Cinque/Fetzer Altgens version of Oswald.

Now, there is intellectual honesty from the Marquette professor for you.

[GuestGuest]

Would you buy a used car from this man?

[Albert Rossi]

[StanDane]

[GuestGuest]

You owe me a keyboard Stan, i've just spat my drink over the old one.

[Albert Rossi]

Stan, I think you bested me on this one

[StanDane]

You owe me a keyboard Stan, i've just spat my drink over the old one.

It happens, Alan. I'll send you one of the ones I use (girl not included):



It can be a little awkward at first, but after you get used to it, you won't believe how fast you can go!

[StanDane]

Stan, I think you bested me on this one

No besting here, only jesting! Thanks for the inspiration!

[greg_parkerAdmin]

You owe me a keyboard Stan, i've just spat my drink over the old one.

It happens, Alan. I'll send you one of the ones I use (girl not included):



It can be a little awkward at first, but after you get used to it, you won't believe how fast you can go!

I wouldn't accept it, Alan. To me, it shows some indication of being booby trapped.

[Albert Rossi]

I'm in favor of keeping abreast of new technology.

[GuestGuest]

I would feel a right tit using that and where's the mouse.

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