"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[John Mooney]

I think Baker's first affidavit is as close to the truth as we've got.

It's sparse. It doesn't mention Oswald, it does mention Truly up the building somewhere vouching for someone - not fitting Oswald's description - and I don't think at this point there was time or perceived need to start changing the story to fit. 

I think Truly was probably with him.

[Colin_Crow]

I think Williams first day affidavit mentions Baker on the fifth. I don't see them going up the elevator from ground and getting off to go to the other one and then the roof.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0141-001.gif

See the bottom of the page.

[Hasan Yusuf]

As far as I'm aware, it's only in his FBI interviews that Williams mentions seeing Baker come up on the elevator.

This is from WCD87:

"While they were still on the fifth floor, Williams saw a Policeman near the stairway at the back of the building, but he did not know whether the Policeman was going up or down the stairway. The Policeman did not speak to Williams and apparently did not see him."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=784


From his testimony:


Mr. BALL.

Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL.

What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL.

Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL.

Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

I did not.

Mr. BALL.

You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Yes, sir.


Sorry, but I don't believe Baker went to the fifth floor on the elevator. I also think that Baker did encounter a man walking away from the stairway on the fourth floor.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Let's try this...

William's first day statement says "police officers" [plural].

Since Baker was supposed to be with Truly, and Williams is not going to mistake Truly for a cop... and since we can generally rely more on initial statements - especially in regard to this investigation, it may be that it was not Truly with Baker. Baker never mentioned Truly by name in his affidavit. Anyone could have identified himself as "building manager". It is also a fact that Baker's affidavit states this person "stepped forward" and I cannot see how Truly could have got past Baker to be able to "step forward" with Baker actually realising he had come from behind initially. Maybe this person had arrived just ahead of Baker and stood in the shadows. His purpose was to take whatever action was needed in the event of anything unplanned happening - say like an early arriving cop.

In this scenario, Baker's affidavit remains a true memory of events AND it frees Truly up for all the things Mr B mentioned. 

Late that night, when the FBI realises the problems with some of these statements, gets Truly to step into the breach as Baker's tour guide.

[Colin_Crow]

Greg, my take would be that at the time of the affidavit Williams thought that Truly was an officer because he only heard them. Truly was shorter than Baker and BRW only saw the top of Baker's helmet. He might have heard footsteps only and figured more than one. Jarman and Norman were shorter than BRW. 

A picture from the 5th floor looking towards the elevators.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Colin,

I know Bonnie Ray hadn't been there all that long - but I would have thought long enough to recognise Truly's very distinctive voice.

Bonnie Ray's testimony does help give the game away in one respect:
------------------
Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood. 
---------------------
Compare to

Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I don't recall. Actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or 2 weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for Lee Oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about. 
-----------------------------

[beowulf]

"t may be that it was not Truly with Baker... Maybe this person had arrived just ahead of Baker and stood in the shadows. His purpose was to take whatever action was needed in the event of anything unplanned happening - say like an early arriving cop".

And that person's name was Lee Harvey Oswald ("Are you thirsty? I need to stop in the lunchroom to get a Coke").
)

Hasan, Williams's is silent on elevator/stairs issue in DPD statement ("officers came up" could be either), so his statement to the FBI that police came up elevator is the first one on the record for that point. What makes me think there may be something to Baker going up by elevator is that FBI time trial memo.

If the elevators were really stuck on the 5th floor then why was the FBI's first trial run with a waiting elevator taking Oswald down from 6th to first floor and then the second trial run with Oswald on the 6th floor calling up an elevator from the first floor?  Only the west elevator was callable, so instead of both stuck on 5th, it sounds like FBI was operating under the assumption east elevator was on 6th floor and west elevator was on 1st-- ready for Baker to take up immediately. The Feds ran 10 different time trials none of them begin with either elevator on 5th floor.

[Hasan Yusuf]

Hasan, Williams's is silent on elevator/stairs issue in DPD statement ("officers came up" could be either), so his statement to the FBI that police came up elevator is the first one on the record for that point. What makes me think there may be something to Baker going up by elevator is that FBI time trial memo.

Beowulf,
 
I strongly suspect the FBI coerced Williams into saying (or just made up) that he saw Baker come up on the elevator to "kill off" the encounter he had on the fourth floor with the man walking away from the stairway, because they suspected he was the real assassin.
 

If the elevators were really stuck on the 5th floor then why was the FBI's first trial run with a waiting elevator taking Oswald down from 6th to first floor and then the second trial run with Oswald on the 6th floor calling up an elevator from the first floor?  Only the west elevator was callable, so instead of both stuck on 5th, it sounds like FBI was operating under the assumption east elevator was on 6th floor and west elevator was on 1st-- ready for Baker to take up immediately. The Feds ran 10 different time trials none of them begin with either elevator on 5th floor.

I'm a bit too tired to think clearly, but the best answer I can give right now is that the FBI were exploring all possibilities of how Oswald could have gotten to the first floor from the sixth floor etc.

[beowulf]

I strongly suspect the FBI coerced Williams into saying (or just made up) that he saw Baker come up on the elevator to "kill off" the encounter he had on the fourth floor with the man walking away from the stairway, because they suspected he was the real assassin.

That's an interesting thought, did coverup start or at least go on the record with Baker's DPD affidavit -- 4th floor encounter invented to bury Baker-LHO front entrance encounter or with Wiliams FBI  statement (Baker elevator ride invented to bury Baker-mystery man 4th floor encounter)?  

What makes it even more curious is Truly's statement is inconsistent with both, no 4th floor encounter like Baker said and no elevator trip to 5th like Williams said.

[Albert Rossi]

It looks like the "Prayer Man" thread on EF has come to a near-stop (even with Mr. B's frame removal:lol: ).  Anyone know if Sean is posting to other threads or elsewhere?  Thanx ...

[greg_parkerAdmin]

It looks like the "Prayer Man" thread on EF has come to a near-stop (even with Mr. B's frame removal:lol: ).  Anyone know if Sean is posting to other threads or elsewhere?  Thanx ...

Don't know if he is posting anywhere right now, but he has posted quite a bit over the years at various venues on this, and related subjects. If you haven't already done so, I'd suggest googling his name with a variety of additional key words (e.g. oswald, jfk, TSBD etc)
That should catch most of his old postings (and any new ones).

[Albert Rossi]

OK, thanks Greg.

[James DiEugenio]

Its pretty clear it was not Sean who stopped it.

It looks like Bill Kelly put on a half court press to do that.

Even teaming up with Von Pein and Jean Davison in order to keep the myth alive about the coke.

This is one of my biggest beefs with the older researchers. They fall in love with the older work of people who 1.) Are not even interested in the case anymore and 2.) Had no exposure to the declassified files.

Roffman was a bright guy who wrote a very good book for its time.

But in my last two books, I do not even include him in my bibligraphy.

But since Goldberg wrote up the coke exchange, hey it happened.

I mean, Baker and Truly lie?  Well, Bill, is it in Baker's first day affidavit?

Hell no!

[Colin_Crow]

As far as I'm aware, it's only in his FBI interviews that Williams mentions seeing Baker come up on the elevator.

This is from WCD87:

"While they were still on the fifth floor, Williams saw a Policeman near the stairway at the back of the building, but he did not know whether the Policeman was going up or down the stairway. The Policeman did not speak to Williams and apparently did not see him."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10490&relPageId=784


From his testimony:


Mr. BALL.

Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL.

What did he do?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL.

Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL.

Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

I did not.

Mr. BALL.

You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS.

Yes, sir.


Sorry, but I don't believe Baker went to the fifth floor on the elevator. I also think that Baker did encounter a man walking away from the stairway on the fourth floor.

He mentions the elevator a week after the assassination. He also adds details like the trip to the 6th floor for a few minutes with his abandoned chicken lunch. He also mentions the officer searching around the 5th floor. This time he claims to have taken the stairs down to 5.....interesting. Also he claims they could see the stairs and no one came down from 6!!.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=335

[Colin_Crow]

Its pretty clear it was not Sean who stopped it.

It looks like Bill Kelly put on a half court press to do that.

Even teaming up with Von Pein and Jean Davison in order to keep the myth alive about the coke.

This is one of my biggest beefs with the older researchers. They fall in love with the older work of people who 1.) Are not even interested in the case anymore and 2.) Had no exposure to the declassified files.

Roffman was a bright guy who wrote a very good book for its time.

But in my last two books, I do not even include him in my bibligraphy.

But since Goldberg wrote up the coke exchange, hey it happened.

I mean, Baker and Truly lie?  Well, Bill, is it in Baker's first day affidavit?

Hell no!

Jim,
as someone who has spent a lot of time on trying to work out what happened in those few minutes I now find myself adjusting to the position that the "lunchroom encounter" was always Oswald's alibi. Just not for the reasons I thought, eg the timing didn't work, his position when seen etc, but now the realization that it likely didn't happen at all. It seems if this is so the scriptwriters were busy as soon as the late evening of the 22nd and certainly by the 23rd.

[James DiEugenio]

Yes, I agree.

In Reclaiming Parkland, I go after this so called Coca Cola incident.

Not anywhere nearly as systematically as Sean did.

I kept the focus on Baker.  And how the DPD gradually evolved this story.

While writing the book I was convinced then that it did not happen.

What Sean has done is gone into much more depth and scope about how it evolved and  why.

Incredible that Bill does not see that.

[John Mooney]

I mean, Baker and Truly lie?  Well, Bill, is it in Baker's first day affidavit?

Truly lied in his WC testimony about commission exhibit 498.

He had just mentioned the pillar/post a few minutes before he said it was not a post - "no" - in the extreme left side of CE 498.

All to give a false impression of how the route they took led them closer to the door.

[Marlene Zenker]

It looks like the "Prayer Man" thread on EF has come to a near-stop (even with Mr. B's frame removal:lol: ).  Anyone know if Sean is posting to other threads or elsewhere?  Thanx ...

BUMP

[beowulf]

I mean, Baker and Truly lie?  Well, Bill, is it in Baker's first day affidavit?

Hell no!

As I said the other day (I forget if it was this thread),  if FBI agents had the balls (or orders) to suborn perjury from White House aides like Powers and O'Donnell, you can't put much stock in anything said under oath in this case. Does anyone believe that the FBI that leaned on guys who are personal friends of the Attorney General (and who LBJ asked to stay on) would hesitate to lean on a motorcycle cop or a small businessman?

[GuestGuest]

The Baker affidavit is what puzzles me. I can understand his being confused as to what floor he was on, those stairs are still confusing to me, but why would he fail to ID Oswald as the man he encountered when Oswald was right there when he was giving his statement?. If he is making it up to take away Oswald's alibi, then he would certainly name Oswald, especially since he is saying Truly knew him. If it actually happened, regardless of the floor, who was the man Truly ID'd? The only explanation I can think of, which is probably considered heresy here, is that the 3rd floor encounter was with LEE  and Truly mistook him for HARVEY, while when Baker was giving his statement he didn't recognize HARVEY (the fellow he encountered in the doorway, PM) as the man on the 3rd floor(LEE). Curiouser and curiouser.

[GuestGuest]

It looks like the "Prayer Man" thread on EF has come to a near-stop (even with Mr. B's frame removal:lol: ).  Anyone know if Sean is posting to other threads or elsewhere?  Thanx ...

BUMP

Some interesting developments over on the EF PM thread involving College Boy and the Skaggs #12 photo.

[Albert Rossi]

and the Skaggs #12 photo.

Which I can't see because I'm not a member.

Belay that ... they've updated.  I can view it.

[GuestGuest]

Do you think the College Boy in the Skaggs photo could be PM? Any way to know when the Skaggs photo was taken?

[Albert Rossi]

So where is College Boy in Skaggs #12?

[greg_parkerAdmin]

I haven't been following the College Boy thing too closely, but I gather this is supposed to be him?



It may well be Ron Lewis - but posting a picture for comparison of Ron Lewis as an old man seems like a bit of a joke.

For what it's worth, this is who I think it looks like:
https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/gallery/ASSASSINATION/JFK-WITNESSES-SUSPECTS/ROBERT-HATFIELD-pic_10.htm

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