"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[Albert Rossi]

Greg, yes that's the figure, but I don't see him the the Skaggs photo.

BTW, I think you may be right about Hatfield.

At any rate, if he is supposed to be PM (I don't think he is), he would have had to enter the vestibule and then exit somewhat later, since I believe these images are subsequent to the Darnell sequence.

[GuestGuest]

So where is College Boy in Skaggs #12?

Lower left hand corner as you face the picture.

[Albert Rossi]

Oh, I see.  I was looking at the cropped photo.  Thanks, Gordon.

I would never have picked that figure out, though, because the jacket looks lighter in the color photo.

So disregard what I said about the vestibule.

[Goban_Saor]

As I said the other day (I forget if it was this thread),  if FBI agents had the balls (or orders) to suborn perjury from White House aides like Powers and O'Donnell, you can't put much stock in anything said under oath in this case. Does anyone believe that the FBI that leaned on guys who are personal friends of the Attorney General (and who LBJ asked to stay on) would hesitate to lean on a motorcycle cop or a small businessman?

Which bears out what I and others said about RFK, despite being Attorney General, not being in a position to have his brother's assassination properly investigated.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

As I said the other day (I forget if it was this thread),  if FBI agents had the balls (or orders) to suborn perjury from White House aides like Powers and O'Donnell, you can't put much stock in anything said under oath in this case. Does anyone believe that the FBI that leaned on guys who are personal friends of the Attorney General (and who LBJ asked to stay on) would hesitate to lean on a motorcycle cop or a small businessman?

Which bears out what I and others said about RFK, despite being Attorney General, not being in a position to have his brother's assassination properly investigated.

It's just been brought to my attention that he was kept out of it at the suggestion of Joe Alsop... Alsop wanted to save RFK the "painful task of reviewing the evidence".
 
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=838&relPageId=3

[Albert Rossi]

If you all haven't read it, this is a key article:

Donald Gibson, "The Creation of the 'Warren Commission'", in Probe (May/June, 1996), repr. in The Assassinations, ed. DiEugenio & Pease (2003): 3-17.

The WC was not originally Lyndon Johnson's idea.  It was pushed by Eugene Rostow, Joe Alsop and Dean Acheson, more than likely in cahoots with Allen Dulles.

[GuestGuest]

Sean sighting on the EF today.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Sean sighting on the EF today.

Any evidence to support this alleged sighting? 

Plaster cast of footprints?

Eyewitness accounts from non-straw chewing, tobacco spitting mountain folk?

Still or movie footage with a verified chain of possession?

Verified Sean stool? 

Has Nat Geo been notified?

[beowulf]

Everyone has a cameraphone these days, you'd think at least one of these Sean sightings could be verified by a photograph. )

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Everyone has a cameraphone these days, you'd think at least one of these Sean sightings could be verified by a photograph. )

Sean said he was on "holidays in the wilds of Connemara".

I think he was actually attending a conference of crypto-critters held this year in that boggy borough  Apparently they swap "war" stories on close encounters with humans from Earth, and their close relatives in the Appalachians and parts of North Queensland, and give tips on how to avoid being photographed in sharp relief. 
http://www.connemaralcc.com/en/2013/02/24/creepy-creatures-in-connemara/

Badge Man is lionized as a God among such critters...

[beowulf]

Speaking of crypto-critters, I came across a wonderful "artist conception" of Theodore Roosevelt shooting a charging Bigfoot (apparently in the middle of a forest fire). The man's sangfroid was remarkable, he doesn't even drop the flag.  )
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/053/1/7/teddy_roosevelt_vs__bigfoot_by_sharpwriter-d3a72w4.jpg

I imagine Sean's holiday was something like that. If I can veer on-topic for a moment, what did Sean say that set Gary Mack off?


Cheap shot, Sean, cheap shot.  I can think whatever I want.  History has put Oswald elsewhere whether you agree with that or not.
As to your question, I think Prayer Man is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald.  Clear enough? 
Gary Mack

I respect the position Gary's in, he's neither a tenured professor in a university nor a civil servant in a state museum. so he doesn't have any sort of job protection if he says something that makes the museum directors or benefactors unhappy.Beyond that, he seems like a really nice guy.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Speaking of crypto-critters, I came across a wonderful "artist conception" of Theodore Roosevelt shooting a charging Bigfoot (apparently in the middle of a forest fire). The man's sangfroid was remarkable, he doesn't even drop the flag.  )
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/053/1/7/teddy_roosevelt_vs__bigfoot_by_sharpwriter-d3a72w4.jpg

I imagine Sean's holiday was something like that. If I can veer on-topic for a moment, what did Sean say that set Gary Mack off?


Cheap shot, Sean, cheap shot.  I can think whatever I want.  History has put Oswald elsewhere whether you agree with that or not.
As to your question, I think Prayer Man is NOT Lee Harvey Oswald.  Clear enough? 
Gary Mack

I respect the position Gary's in, he's neither a tenured professor in a university nor a civil servant in a state museum. so he doesn't have any sort of job protection if he says something that makes the museum directors or benefactors unhappy.Beyond that, he seems like a really nice guy.

See post #987.

Gary is a nice guy. He just doesn't take kindly to being wrong.

His MO is a bit troubling. It's one thing to contact forum members to set them straight on matters of fact. What he increasingly does as the boom-gate on the official version is being lowered ever more, is to contact forum members proffering opinion dressed as "fact".

This (Prayer Man thread) was but one example and his contact with forum members has to be with the acquiescence of his benefactors. Again - I find that troubling - when it goes beyond mere correction of simple facts.

Here is something I said to Duke Lane in an Ed Forum thread about Gary Mack some 3 years ago.

I guess in your Dukely way, you're asking how anyone can tell how often Gary emails LNs and what type of email he sends? 

If so, my reply would be that we can only go by the evidence provided. When a CT posts about an email from Mack, it is inevitably a "correction" on some fact or other. From my own experience, Gary's "corrections" always go to the LN side and are only sometimes valid. I do not believe he deliberately misinforms; but by the same token, he does not acknowledge mistakes when shown to be made.

When a LN posts re contact from Mack, it is ineveitably to provide fodder for a debate the poster might be currently involved in. The tipoff to Carlier about the shell pack which he claimed was found among Oswald's possessions is an (albeit extreme) example of his rush to assist LNs without due care for the accuracy of the information.

If you see it (or Gary) differently, so be it. But that is the state of the evidence I have access to. 

[GuestGuest]

Gary, center rear. He's amazing. I've never seen his lips move!

[Mark A. O'Blazney]

Putting words in other researchers' mouths seems to be a nasty little habit that detracts from the honest contributors of this field.  Ever notice that?  Read their lips....
No New Facts !  As Randy California & Spirit once sang....... "We got nothing to hide".  A beautiful sprout from the Ash Grove, he were.

Where is this all going?  You can start by asking Mr. Williams, if he'd care to respond.
Sorry to be Ramblin'.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/1/15/Photo_wcd496_0016.jpg

Yes so hard to find a stairway or elevator in the lobby... 

Total BS folks.
(unless Baker was asking for ROOF access, not just stairs or a lift)

PS: Anyone got a 'lobby elevator' photo they would like to share?
Ed

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Yes so hard to find a stairway or elevator in the lobby... 

About time you showed up! 

Welcome back, Ed.

[Ed.Ledoux]

7. Takes sniper to lunch-room.
8. Takes sniper to lunch-room.
9. Ah yes. The each way bet. Pit stops at 4 and 2.
10. And now the daily double.

I am now officially in awe of the FBI.

How come none have him walking down to 5 and getting one of the freight elevators? Weren't both supposedly stuck there? Am I missing something besides a decent nights sleep?

Yeah that you can't call the rear passenger elevator up. These are using the front "call-able" elevator from fourth to first floor, second floor, etc. So a lot of extra walking back and forth in the times listed.

Do we have any corroboration from those "people in the lobby around Baker" as to what Baker asked/did/went?

Ed

[Ed.Ledoux]

I don't think Prayer Man is holding anything. To me (and my law student) it looks like he is talking to the man across from him, the white part looks like his hand, and I think he looks like he is gesturing to the man he is speaking to. 
Just my 2 cents. Great thread all, pleasure reading it!

Or
Buttoning his shirt perhaps?
Ed

Edit: Also maybe why he looks puffed up, holding shirt out buttoning buttons.

OR!!

Zipping up his jacket!

OR

I was thinking checking watch...but the mirror idea   got me to wonder about the ID bracelet and it reflecting!!!!!!!!!

[Ed.Ledoux]

Yes so hard to find a stairway or elevator in the lobby... 

About time you showed up! 

Welcome back, Ed.

Aloha Greg!

[GuestGuest]

Yes so hard to find a stairway or elevator in the lobby... 

About time you showed up! 

Welcome back, Ed.

Aloha Greg!

Yo!

Great to see you back in the trenches, Ed.

[Ed.Ledoux]

Thanks Lee!

Happy to see Prayer Man is getting eyes all over him!
Along with Black Hole Man, and the whole stairway mafia.

Ed

[beowulf]

I see the EF thread will just not die.  Tom Graves and Bill Kelly are talking about the statement ML Baker gave to James Bowles.  Baker's reference to an investigator down from Washington who wasn't interested in what he had to say was apparently a reference to the HSCA (which did indeed send investigators down to Dallas to talk to witnesses like Baker). The FBI wouldn't send anyone down from DC seeing as they have agents in their Dallas office.

[GuestGuest]

I didn't see a delete post button so I removed the double entry.

[GuestGuest]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I have just pulled a cram session after being directed here by a brother in arms and find the discussion worthy of the combined reputations and integrity I have witnessed by this group as individuals, on other forums.

That being said I would like to offer a special thank you to Robert Charles-Dunne for his years of civil discourse and wisdom.

I come to your group as an agnostic on who did what until I can convince myself that the evidence shows a certain thing. In 50 years I haven't convinced myself of much except every law agency involved were either grossly incompetent or took a dive . I have a firm belief in this...the earlier the statement the more reliable, for there's less chance for manipulation.

At the moment I can't be convinced that the person in question is Oswald. I think it's possible that he was where Fritz's note say he was, that being inside the building on the first floor, second floor and then out front on his way "out of Dodge".

I can't remember in 37 pages if this was brought up, but in Lovelady and Shelley's original statements, there is no mention of going down to the railroad tracks and then to the rear entrance. Shelley said he went inside to call his wife and tell her what happened and Lovelady said he went inside. this would explain two things: 1. Victoria Adams didn't see them because they were milling around out front and 2. This would have kept Shelley up towards the front to vouch for oswald as he was leaving and fit the "out front with Shelley" in Fritz's notes.

In looking at the frames from Darnel that Robin Unger sent me, I immediately identified Frazier I think before Sean did at the EF and made mention to Robin and others that I can't believe, with all of the people going back inside the building, that no one in 50 years has put Oswald on that landing on the entryway. Not even anonymously through someone's uncle's cousin's dog's sister's parakeet.

No one...that for me is the biggest hurdle.

I think it can easily be explained that the second floor lunch room encounter did happen. Oswald could have easily walked by the front entrance and saw Shelley on his way up the front stairs to the second floor to get his coke. He entered the vestibule from the office entrance and walked by the window in the door as Baker came around from one flight of stairs to the next. that would explain truly not seeing him.

I'm playing catch up but that's all for now.

After going through the entire EF thread let me expand on why Oswald as Pm doesn't work for me. These are just observations:

1. Shelley and Lovealdy's original statements to the DPD make no metion of the railroad track visit. Again, Shelley says he went back inside to call his wife and Lovelady says he went inside. I think the entire "left for the railroad tracks" is a bigger fabrication than anything offered thus far. The footage by Gerta Dunkel asks whether the two men in Couch are Shelley and Lovelady and I don't believe it's them. In his WC testimony, Shelley says they were walking down the middle of the street to the tracks. Dunkel's footage shows 2 guys walking on the sidewalk next to the building and one breaks away from the other, actually overtakes the guy closest to the street and looks like he breaks into a trot leaving the other behind. Shelley states they were at the island when they saw Baker and truly going to enter the building. The Dunkel footage shows them again, halfway down the block and they never appear to look back.The identification of Shelley in a suit and tie going to the police car I don't believe is Shelley. Shelley was overseeing the floor crew and most likely wore work clothes those days. In the testimony to the WC Shelley I believe states they went to the island and then the tracks. Lovelady says from the steps to the tracks. In the March signed statements I believe Shelley says they accompanied officers and Lovelady doesn't mention officers. 

2. The above doesn't allow us to eliminate Shelley as PM.

3.The statements of Someone seeing Oswald at the front store room is consistent with his coming down from the second floor, after buying a coke, prior to slipping out of the building.

4. I can't put any trust in the news items shown by Sean in the thread based on many statements not attributed to anyone. Considering the lack of source for much of the material I think much of it was based on he said she said that they said.

[StanDane]

Some rambling thoughts…
 
Oswald as PM works for me. I could be wrong, like I have countless other times in my 60 years, but Sean has convinced me.
 
He seems to have convinced many others as well. The "Who is Prayer Man" poll here is currently running 21 to zip for Oswald. Over at JFK Assassination Forum—a place with many vocal lone nutters—their (now closed) PM Oswald poll came in at 27 yea, and 14 nay. I think that's significant.
 
Prayer Man seems to be the single most interesting topic in the JFK Assassination area in these forums as well. The PM thread here has the largest number of views. Just seven weeks old, the PM thread at JFK Assassination Forum is already the 7th largest of 5,299 threads since November 2008 (yeah, I was dumb enough to sift through all that). Likewise at the Education Forum, the Prayer Man thread started on August 14, 2013 dwarfs most other threads with over 80,000 views so far.
 
I think PM captures the imagination of a large number of people because it's an easy thing to grasp. For one, you don't have to be an expert to form an opinion. What do your eyes tell you? Who else could it be? And go from there. Sean's brilliant elucidation of the testimony, affidavits, eyewitness accounts, and news stories helped me follow his thinking. He acted like a teacher.
 
Most average people like me don't know a fraction of the information that seasoned researchers here and elsewhere know. So average people get intimidated when they jump in and start trying to follow serious discussions underway. It's like listening to accountants talk. People don't understand the lingo.
 
My son, 28, has a mild interest in the JFK assassination. But when he starts looking at many of my books, the websites, forums, et al., his eyes glaze over. How do you make sense of all this, he asks?
 
It's almost like the truth gets drowned out over shouts of "Tastes great!" "Less Filling!" and other noise and disinformation. Most people with short attention spans give up and go on to other things. It's a reality.

Greg expressed his frustration last week realizing the truth, the "real story," would likely be "buried in forums" with "no real impact on how the history is written." I fear he may be right.
 
How do you get out the real story out and in a form that the average person can understand and grasp? How do you take action?
 
These are things I wonder.
 
Maybe, as Orwell said, "If there is hope, it lies in the proles." If we are going to wipe the fog off, we'll need to take what we know and persuade the common man so he can see it for himself. Will this ever happen?
 
The optimist in me says yes. The realist in me says no.

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