"Prayer Man" on the Education Forum

[ianlloyd]

First topic message reminder :

As I am not a member of the EF, I cannot post there but there is an interesting discussion going on there at the moment regarding a figure in the TSBD doorway generally referred to as "Prayer Man" due to the apparent position of his hands, seemingly clasped in front of his chest as if in prayer.
 
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20354
 
I recall this person being discussed somewhere many years ago and was referred to as "Prayer Man" pretty much from the outset but I cannot recall where it originated, maybe on Lancer?
 
Anyway, the reason for this post is that, upon looking closely at the various photographs and movie clips presented as part of the discussion, it struck me that his hands don't seem to move from the "prayer" position for what seems to be quite some time. Was he holding something, I wonder? If so, it seems an odd way to hold whatever it was.

[StanDane]

"If we ever hope get this thing into the legal area, we're going to have to convince the right people we got something. We got anything better than Prayer Man?
Or are we hosed?"

Serving as District Attorney is sort of like being on the city council, its usually a stepping stone job to something bigger-- mayor, judge, congressman, etc. The DA could be approached with this but I'm sure he's already been approached by local poohbahs who've told him that if he wants to move up he needs to let sleeping dogs lie. That sounds cynical but someone like Jim Garrison--- who was willing to jump into this case with both feet, politics be damned-- is a rare bird.

I reckon our job then is to find a rare bird.

[TerryWMartin]

"If we ever hope get this thing into the legal area, we're going to have to convince the right people we got something. We got anything better than Prayer Man?
Or are we hosed?"

Serving as District Attorney is sort of like being on the city council, its usually a stepping stone job to something bigger-- mayor, judge, congressman, etc. The DA could be approached with this but I'm sure he's already been approached by local poohbahs who've told him that if he wants to move up he needs to let sleeping dogs lie. That sounds cynical but someone like Jim Garrison--- who was willing to jump into this case with both feet, politics be damned-- is a rare bird.

I reckon our job then is to find a rare bird.

You know there are loyers of the sort who take on cases pro bono to "make a name" for themselves.

Surely, there is someone out there hungry enough to want to make their name a household word.

[TerryWMartin]

But, of course, we may still be hosed.

[beowulf]

You know there are loyers of the sort who take on cases pro bono to "make a name" for themselves.

Pro bono cases are always civil matters. Criminal prosecutions are handled by elected officials (DA or state AG) or presidential appointees (US Attorney or USAG). The statute of limitations have run out on federal charges, the only two lawyers who can take this to court are either the Dallas DA or TX AG.

[StanDane]

"If we ever hope get this thing into the legal area, we're going to have to convince the right people we got something. We got anything better than Prayer Man?
Or are we hosed?"

Serving as District Attorney is sort of like being on the city council, its usually a stepping stone job to something bigger-- mayor, judge, congressman, etc. The DA could be approached with this but I'm sure he's already been approached by local poohbahs who've told him that if he wants to move up he needs to let sleeping dogs lie. That sounds cynical but someone like Jim Garrison--- who was willing to jump into this case with both feet, politics be damned-- is a rare bird.

I reckon our job then is to find a rare bird.

Now here's a rare bird. Maybe one like this is our guy?
 

[TerryWMartin]

You know there are loyers of the sort who take on cases pro bono to "make a name" for themselves.

Pro bono cases are always civil matters. Criminal prosecutions are handled by elected officials (DA or state AG) or presidential appointees (US Attorney or USAG). The statute of limitations have run out on federal charges, the only two lawyers who can take this to court are either the Dallas DA or TX AG.

Even with Stan finding a rare bird, indeed, it seems to not be of the proper species.

Apparently we need one from the genus Attornus and of either the districtus or generalus species.

Heck, now we're supposed to know ornithology as well?

[StanDane]

I feel like a bird brain.
 
The truth is with our wonderful legal system, "they" can do whatever the hell "they" want. If you are an enemy of the state, there's a million ways they can come after you. Doesn't have to make any sense at all. Just defend yourself (ha ha ha). They have unlimited resources. They just have to be somebody in power who wants to do "something."
 
The legal system only "works" for those in power and those with money (same goddam thing). If somebody in power wanted to open this thing back up, it would be done in a snap, details to follow later. Rotten bastards.

End of incoherent rant.

Time to hit the road for a spell.

[GuestGuest]

I feel like a bird brain.
 
The truth is with our wonderful legal system, "they" can do whatever the hell "they" want. If you are an enemy of the state, there's a million ways they can come after you. Doesn't have to make any sense at all. Just defend yourself (ha ha ha). They have unlimited resources. They just have to be somebody in power who wants to do "something."
 
The legal system only "works" for those in power and those with money (same goddam thing). If somebody in power wanted to open this thing back up, it would be done in a snap, details to follow later. Rotten bastards.

End of incoherent rant.

Time to hit the road for a spell.

They say we all inadvertently commit 2 daily violations. Which means that at any given time they decide choose, we're guilty of something. That is the stronghold we are up against. They have the database not only to sling mud but to make it stick hard and permanently. Depends how much you protest. There is a need to be careful on whose toes you tread on. I've been threatened by cops before and its not a nice feeling. And that was merely for a traffic offense.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Here's the rub:

I could put everything I'm sitting on together for the Dallas DA. but the only way to keep it short would be to put it in dot point and omit the underlying reasoning and evidence. One you add in the reasoning and evidence, you're back to it being such a large package I may as well just go with the book/s. That was the original intention anyway - to generate enough interest that the media and/or public officials would take notice (and hopefully some action). 

I like the idea of the DA being approached about Frazier.  Keep it simple and if that leads to further action, the DA may be more amenable to looking at whatever else we may have.

[GuestGuest]

Here's the rub:

I could put everything I'm sitting on together for the Dallas DA. but the only way to keep it short would be to put it in dot point and omit the underlying reasoning and evidence. One you add in the reasoning and evidence, you're back to it being such a large package I may as well just go with the book/s. That was the original intention anyway - to generate enough interest that the media and/or public officials would take notice (and hopefully some action). 

I like the idea of the DA being approached about Frazier.  Keep it simple and if that leads to further action, the DA may be more amenable to looking at whatever else we may have.

What about doing both at the same time, Greg? It would be good publicity for your book/s and might create the interest that is needed to push this thing through.
I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Here's the rub:

I could put everything I'm sitting on together for the Dallas DA. but the only way to keep it short would be to put it in dot point and omit the underlying reasoning and evidence. One you add in the reasoning and evidence, you're back to it being such a large package I may as well just go with the book/s. That was the original intention anyway - to generate enough interest that the media and/or public officials would take notice (and hopefully some action). 

I like the idea of the DA being approached about Frazier.  Keep it simple and if that leads to further action, the DA may be more amenable to looking at whatever else we may have.

What about doing both at the same time, Greg? It would be good publicity for your book/s and might create the interest that is needed to push this thing through.
I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

Paul,

that's what I'm getting at. In point form, you're asking him to accept a lot on faith and face value - in which case, it's probably headed straight to the dust-bin. On the other hand, very very few public officials want to be lumbered with a huge amount of data to go through - especially where it is a case known to attract loopy elements. Gotta get 'em interested a little first... and Frazier may just be the key to that. I have something on Frazier's family which is a lead that may or may not pan out. I just don't have the resources to dig deeper... but I believe they may have known the "epileptic". Even if they did know him, I guess it could be claimed to be a coincidence... but it is a path to follow and other information may become available to refute or confirm a coincidence theory. The "epileptic" is a problem because the story he gave makes even less sense than the official 2nd floor lunch encounter. I have to assume he had a role in diverting attention and ambulances...

[GuestGuest]

Here's the rub:

I could put everything I'm sitting on together for the Dallas DA. but the only way to keep it short would be to put it in dot point and omit the underlying reasoning and evidence. One you add in the reasoning and evidence, you're back to it being such a large package I may as well just go with the book/s. That was the original intention anyway - to generate enough interest that the media and/or public officials would take notice (and hopefully some action). 

I like the idea of the DA being approached about Frazier.  Keep it simple and if that leads to further action, the DA may be more amenable to looking at whatever else we may have.

What about doing both at the same time, Greg? It would be good publicity for your book/s and might create the interest that is needed to push this thing through.
I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

Paul,

that's what I'm getting at. In point form, you're asking him to accept a lot on faith and face value - in which case, it's probably headed straight to the dust-bin. On the other hand, very very few public officials want to be lumbered with a huge amount of data to go through - especially where it is a case known to attract loopy elements. Gotta get 'em interested a little first... and Frazier may just be the key to that. I have something on Frazier's family which is a lead that may or may not pan out. I just don't have the resources to dig deeper... but I believe they may have known the "epileptic". Even if they did know him, I guess it could be claimed to be a coincidence... but it is a path to follow and other information may become available to refute or confirm a coincidence theory. The "epileptic" is a problem because the story he gave makes even less sense than the official 2nd floor lunch encounter. I have to assume he had a role in diverting attention and ambulances...

Its okay to make allegations if you can effectively prove them to be correct. That is the key with reopening this whole case. I understand that you are under resourced and I know full well the "loopy elements" that this case attracts, but once you are ready then I believe you shouldn't hold back anything with an approach. That was the point I was trying to make as well. The epileptic episode is a well known one in this case and we have Oliver Stone's JFK to thank for that. As to where it leads to from there on is anyone's guess but its a start which is more than we have at the moment.
I've got to admire guys like yourselves. I don't know how you guys do it. I tip my hat to you and others on this forum and I hope I don't come across as being critical at times because that is not my intent. My contributions are not even worth 2 bob but there is nothing more I'd like to see than this thing reopened. Its been far too long.

[beowulf]

I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

The danger is precisely the opposite, its the difference between sending an employer a 1 page resume and a 10 page resume.  You may or may not get the job but no reason to freak him out from the get go. 
Maybe a better play would be approaching Mark Lane, Robert Tanenbaum or some other prominent CTer first.  I'd ask Lane what he would have done with that clear picture of PM and Frazier, if he'd only had it in 1964. 
I'll tell you what the top priority should be, translating Sean Murphy's shaggy dog of a theory (spread over dozens of EF pages) into a coherent, tight article.  THAT'S the article I'd send to the DA, Lane or anyone else you wanted to communicate with.
I told Sean months ago that he should communicate with Officer Baker's adult children to ask if their father ever told them about what really happened that day and what it was like dealing with the investigation.  Don't know if Sean followed up, but they may have a tale to tell.

[Hasan Yusuf]

I'll tell you what the top priority should be, translating Sean Murphy's shaggy dog of a theory (spread over dozens of EF pages) into a coherent, tight article.

If I remember correctly, Jim Di was saying on one of his black op radio appearances that he was trying to get Sean to write a 40 page essay on his work for CTKA. Though it doesn't look like it's gonna happen.

[GuestGuest]

I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

The danger is precisely the opposite, its the difference between sending an employer a 1 page resume and a 10 page resume.  You may or may not get the job but no reason to freak him out from the get go. 
Maybe a better play would be approaching Mark Lane, Robert Tanenbaum or some other prominent CTer first.  I'd ask Lane what he would have done with that clear picture of PM and Frazier, if he'd only had it in 1964. 
I'll tell you what the top priority should be, translating Sean Murphy's shaggy dog of a theory (spread over dozens of EF pages) into a coherent, tight article.  THAT'S the article I'd send to the DA, Lane or anyone else you wanted to communicate with.
I told Sean months ago that he should communicate with Officer Baker's adult children to ask if their father ever told them about what really happened that day and what it was like dealing with the investigation.  Don't know if Sean followed up, but they may have a tale to tell.

If they are not looking to hire, beowulf, then you have to give them a reason from the get go. Tidbits only go so far. I agree that it needs to be concise and clear from the outset and you need to have something substantial to offer. Releasing a book/s and an official approach to the D.A may provide the promotion that is needed to get the MSM on board. Lets be honest about this. You need publicity to get this thing running. Approaching the D.A and expecting them to bother reopening this case after 50 years with all the controversy, is wishful thinking. You need to use the media.
I wouldn't touch Mark Lane with a 10 foot pole but editing Sean's work is a great idea. PM, despite the blur, can be a (and I hate the term) water cooler conversation starter.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

Here's the rub:

I could put everything I'm sitting on together for the Dallas DA. but the only way to keep it short would be to put it in dot point and omit the underlying reasoning and evidence. One you add in the reasoning and evidence, you're back to it being such a large package I may as well just go with the book/s. That was the original intention anyway - to generate enough interest that the media and/or public officials would take notice (and hopefully some action). 

I like the idea of the DA being approached about Frazier.  Keep it simple and if that leads to further action, the DA may be more amenable to looking at whatever else we may have.

What about doing both at the same time, Greg? It would be good publicity for your book/s and might create the interest that is needed to push this thing through.
I fear that if you approach the D.A in point form it won't be enough. I'd hit them with everything at once.

Paul,

that's what I'm getting at. In point form, you're asking him to accept a lot on faith and face value - in which case, it's probably headed straight to the dust-bin. On the other hand, very very few public officials want to be lumbered with a huge amount of data to go through - especially where it is a case known to attract loopy elements. Gotta get 'em interested a little first... and Frazier may just be the key to that. I have something on Frazier's family which is a lead that may or may not pan out. I just don't have the resources to dig deeper... but I believe they may have known the "epileptic". Even if they did know him, I guess it could be claimed to be a coincidence... but it is a path to follow and other information may become available to refute or confirm a coincidence theory. The "epileptic" is a problem because the story he gave makes even less sense than the official 2nd floor lunch encounter. I have to assume he had a role in diverting attention and ambulances...

Its okay to make allegations if you can effectively prove them to be correct. That is the key with reopening this whole case. I understand that you are under resourced and I know full well the "loopy elements" that this case attracts, but once you are ready then I believe you shouldn't hold back anything with an approach. That was the point I was trying to make as well. The epileptic episode is a well known one in this case and we have Oliver Stone's JFK to thank for that. As to where it leads to from there on is anyone's guess but its a start which is more than we have at the moment.
I've got to admire guys like yourselves. I don't know how you guys do it. I tip my hat to you and others on this forum and I hope I don't come across as being critical at times because that is not my intent. My contributions are not even worth 2 bob but there is nothing more I'd like to see than this thing reopened. Its been far too long.

Thanks Paul,

I'm just wary of being brushed off... which comes back to going through a reputable journalist rather than direct. 

I need to have a long think about the options I have from here. The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in. 

As for the so-called epileptic - he has come under suspicion for a long long time - but it's been suspicion for suspicion sake. I have reason for it. His story was a medical impossibility. He lived in Irving and his family was very involved in the Baptist Church. The Randles were in Irving and a Baptist minister accompanied them in for questioning... same church? That's what I don't know...

[Hasan Yusuf]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

[TerryWMartin]

As for the so-called epileptic - he has come under suspicion for a long long time - but it's been suspicion for suspicion sake. I have reason for it. His story was a medical impossibility. He lived in Irving and his family was very involved in the Baptist Church. The Randles were in Irving and a Baptist minister accompanied them in for questioning... same church? That's what I don't know...

The "epileptic" event removed the ambulance from Dealey Plaza. Did they have other such posted along the motorcade route or was that the only one?

Add that to the fact that the Secret Service moved the President's physician to the back of the bus, and Kennedy was left with only a slim chance of getting to a hospital in time... that is, putting his life in Bill Greer's hands.

Sadly though, with that last head shot, the ambulance probably would not have helped anyway.

[TerryWMartin]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

Absolute truth. There are piles of books on JFK - of differing worth - but precious little about Oswald that is cogent.

[beowulf]

Its like Eagles's guitarist Glenn Frey said, you have your whole life to make your first album and a year to make your second.

[TerryWMartin]

Its like Eagles's guitarist Glenn Frey said, you have your whole life to make your first album and a year to make your second.

That's true on several levels.

My brother published his first Sci-fi novel in 1978 and the publisher was expecting the sequel within a year. He was getting really pressured by year two.

After that, they lost interest. I suppose you have to feed the fire while it is burning.

It certainly beats searching around in the dark for another book of matches.

[Hasan Yusuf]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

Absolute truth. There are piles of books on JFK - of differing worth - but precious little about Oswald that is cogent.

I agree, Terry.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

Absolute truth. There are piles of books on JFK - of differing worth - but precious little about Oswald that is cogent.

I agree, Terry.

Unfortunately it appears people are more comfortable with what is familiar. Book hasn't sold a copy in a week, while other books which came out within a month either side of mine and which are no more than cannibalized versions of previous books, are selling quite well. 

One of the reasons I'm in a quandary about which way to turn.

[greg_parkerAdmin]

The 2nd volume is only about 20 pages done at this stage due to putting it aside to promote the first book - a mistake because I'm having trouble forcing myself to dive back in.

I wish you the best of luck getting it done, Greg. With so much crap out there concerning this case, your book is something we NEED.

Absolute truth. There are piles of books on JFK - of differing worth - but precious little about Oswald that is cogent.

I agree, Terry.

Unfortunately it appears people are more comfortable with what is familiar. Book hasn't sold a copy in a week, while other books which came out within a month either side of mine and which are no more than cannibalized versions of previous books, are selling quite well. 

One of the reasons I'm in a quandary about which way to turn.

The exception to the rule is Judyth Baker. Her book is no regurgitation of old ones but is also doing quite well.

Here is a recent comment on FB:

"Me and Lee". Judy Vary Baker's book. Just finished it and can recommend it. It is well written and well put together from cover to asides to maps and photos. The photo of Lee Oswald recognizing Jack Ruby and not being happy about it is priceless and worth the book on its own. Judy has taken the ghost of Lee Harvey Oswald and fleshed him out giving us a real man. I always wondered what the trip to Clinton, Louisiana, was all about. Now I know. Congrats Judy Baker. You are now a part of history and have driven another nail into the coffin of the Empire.

Among her claims is that Oswald modeled himself on the Scarlet Pimpernel... and that he sometimes used the alias "Leslie Oswald" in honor of Leslie Howard, the actor who portrayed the Pimpernel. I'll let that stand without comment except to say that this is the type of thing that all too many people would rather read... which I find distressing and depressing...

[TerryWMartin]

Among her claims is that Oswald modeled himself on the Scarlet Pimpernel... and that he sometimes used the alias "Leslie Oswald" in honor of Leslie Howard, the actor who portrayed the Pimpernel. I'll let that stand without comment except to say that this is the type of thing that all too many people would rather read... which I find distressing and depressing...

The reading public has a long and rather solid history of not understanding much of anything they are reading within a contextual framework wider than their narrow vision. In other words, they read and like whatever suits them at the moment.

The reason why humorous memes work better on facebook than in depth articles is that most people have very short attention spans. There's a reason why 80% of the nation thinks there was a conspiracy and yet there is no cohesion to the think.

Recently, I purchased the number one selling science fiction story on Amazon to see if I could understand what was selling and it was hard to get through. The language was jumbled and juvenile, the plot twists continuous, loose threads dropped every other page, misspellings, missing words, and so on. And the very worst part is that the conflict around which the book centered was never resolved by the end of the tale. It was the most horrid trash I had ever read.

And yet it was the #1 seller and the comments went into the hundreds - mostly rated a "5" - and the few comments about how poor the book was got buried.

If an author was depressed by that discovery, it might be enough to make them throw in the towel. You cannot think like that. When my first seven books had not sold, one agent asked why I kept writing. I saw it like a savings account. All the stuff I wrote would become worth something when I did finally get my break.

The Oswald book is the same thing. It is an important part of the puzzle and needs to be out there. Perhaps it won't get more than a few sales before volume two arrives and precious few until the final one hits the stands. But - and I might be wrong since I haven't seen your outline - I imagine the really, really good stuff is in the final volume. When that one is released, I should think there would be more interest in the entire series.

Again, maybe that's just my warped thinking. I have thirty books published and sell only fifty copies a year, TOTAL. And yet I have three more done this year and plan on another dozen before Christmas. Sooner or later someone is going to notice what a truly wonderful gift my words are (excuse me while I go find a hole I can get sick in [Bob Dylan's line, not mine]) or something and the sales will improve.

Until then, I keep writing because THAT is what is in me to do.

Whew! And that seems a bit of an understatement... when I get going, well, it's hard to shut me up!

 

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