Question Concerning Time

First topic message reminder :

What is the general consensus concerning the approximate time that Lee Oswald was put in handcuffs at the Texas Theater?

Okay, I'm home and have opened my copy of Greg Parker's favourite book - Harvey & Lee 


  

One part of the passage I am quoting is sourced to the CD-ROM that came with the book.  I no longer have mine after I snapped it by accidentally sitting on it one day shortly after purchasing the book - so if anybody else can pull the referenced source off their copy that would be swell:

"In 1967 the New Orleans District Attorney's office interviewed Tommy Rowe, who lived in Apt. 206 at 223 S. Ewing (the building occupied by Jack Ruby in 1963). Mr. Rowe said that he told the shoe store manager Johnny Brewer that he saw a man wearing a brown shirt enter the Texas Theater on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.  

Mr. Rowe should have contacted investigators in 1963, but if his statement is true it raises the possibility that Johnny Brewer may never have seen the man in the brown shirt enter the theater."

Armstrong's source number for the CD-ROM is TIPPIT 06 and his other source is Files of the New Orleans District Attorney, "Dallas Miscellany," p.2.  

Armstrong does raise a somewhat interesting point concerning the Theater.  He points out that next to the theater was a small walkway (3 feet wide) that adjoins the theater on the east side.  Armstrong hypothesises that whoever Johnny Brewer followed could have walked down this walkway that led to the rear of the building and not actually entered the theater itself.

In addition Armstrong states that the first announcement of Tippit 's murder was broadcast over the radio at 1:55pm.  So we have conflicting information concerning the public radio broadcast time with Bill Drenas placing the announcement significantly earlier.

Lee, this is tippit_06:



The full NODA document ... is that on the CD somewhere, or at Mary Ferrell, or?

This is obviously a snippet from it.

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, this is tippit_06:



The full NODA document ... is that on the CD somewhere, or at Mary Ferrell, or?

This is obviously a snippet from it.

Cheers, Albert.  Much appreciated.

I had a feeling it would be that document.  It is part of the larger document I linked to in my first post about Tommy Rowe.  The one held at Baylor.  There is nothing identifying the document as being from the NOLA DA files on the Baylor document.

I'm left wondering that if this is Armstrong's only source for the quote I posted from his book then how on earth he wrote that Rowe said "he saw a man wearing a brown shirt enter the Texas Theater."

There is no mention of a "brown shirt" in this document and it's particularly grating because it is the "brown shirt" that Armstrong wants to promote to help support his two Oswald's theory.  We know this is the most important thing for Armstrong to impress on his readers because he underlines it.

Lee Farley wrote:

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, this is tippit_06:



The full NODA document ... is that on the CD somewhere, or at Mary Ferrell, or?

This is obviously a snippet from it.

Cheers, Albert.  Much appreciated.

I had a feeling it would be that document.  It is part of the larger document I linked to in my first post about Tommy Rowe.  The one held at Baylor.  There is nothing identifying the document as being from the NOLA DA files on the Baylor document.

You're right, Lee.  What is this document?  It looks typewritten, not word-processed/printed. 

Since Jim Di has worked a lot with NOLA DA stuff, maybe he could give us a hint at the provenance.

Albert Rossi wrote:

Lee Farley wrote:

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, this is tippit_06:



The full NODA document ... is that on the CD somewhere, or at Mary Ferrell, or?

This is obviously a snippet from it.

Cheers, Albert.  Much appreciated.

I had a feeling it would be that document.  It is part of the larger document I linked to in my first post about Tommy Rowe.  The one held at Baylor.  There is nothing identifying the document as being from the NOLA DA files on the Baylor document.

You're right, Lee.  What is this document?  It looks typewritten, not word-processed/printed. 

Since Jim Di has worked a lot with NOLA DA stuff, maybe he could give us a hint at the provenance.

Impossible to tell where it has come from.  As far as I am aware Armstrong is the only researcher who has ever sourced this document in a book.  It certainly isn't held at Mary Ferrell and a search of Rowe at the NARA database yields no results for "Tommy Rowe"

It could be a bunch of Garrison investigation leads typed up based upon work completed by his assistants but there is absolutely no evidence in this document that an interview has taken place with Rowe by anyone from Garrison's office and the information may have come to the DA's office through other means.

Go to the last page

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Craig%20Roger/Item%2013.pdf

Anything Penn Jones ever said about this case needs to be treated with extreme caution. He was by far the least leliable of the early critics.

He asserts Tommy Rowe was a friend of Ruby - but as far as I can tell, there is not a scrap of evidence for this, and living in the same apartment building is not the same as living in the same apartment. We also only have Rowe's word that he ever worked at Hardy's, let alone that he was the one who pointed Oswald out.

Unless Rowe turns out to be the same individual as the FBI informant with similar name (and it's possible he is), then he is a waste of time.

I think we can rule out Gary Thomas Rowe
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/04/us/gary-t-rowe-jr-64-who-informed-on-klan-in-civil-rights-killing-is-dead.html

greg parker wrote:Go to the last page

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/C%20Disk/Craig%20Roger/Item%2013.pdf

Anything Penn Jones ever said about this case needs to be treated with extreme caution. He was by far the least leliable of the early critics.

He asserts Tommy Rowe was a friend of Ruby - but as far as I can tell, there is not a scrap of evidence for this, and living in the same apartment building is not the same as living in the same apartment. We also only have Rowe's word that he ever worked at Hardy's, let alone that he was the one who pointed Oswald out.

Unless Rowe turns out to be the same individual as the FBI informant with similar name (and it's possible he is), then he is a waste of time.

Nothing there I disagree with, mate.  I am looking forward to finding out more about Gary Thomas Rowe even if he turns out to be unrelated.

I remember briefly discussing Tommy Rowe with you in the past and your feelings were the same but let's see if we nail down this other guy.

EDIT:  Jeez, do you speed read    and type with fingers and toes?  

Case closed on Tommy Rowe?  Last question, Greg.  Any idea why the Gary Thomas Rowe newspaper clipping I posted end up in the CIA segregated JFK file of the HSCA?

EDIT:  Jeez, do you speed read    and type with fingers and toes?  


Case closed on Tommy Rowe?  Last question, Greg.  Any idea why the Gary Thomas Rowe newspaper clipping I posted end up in the CIA segregated JFK file of the HSCA?

Do everything in between serving customers. Do everything at 100 miles an hour between customers when hopped up from a combo of sleep deprivation and racing mind. 

Not quite case closed -- but pretty close. I can't get him in Dallas. 

is this the news clip you're talking about?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=103879&relPageId=19

If so, it's misfiled in JFK materials. It belongs in MLK files.

Albert Rossi wrote:

Lee Farley wrote:

Albert Rossi wrote:Lee, this is tippit_06:



The full NODA document ... is that on the CD somewhere, or at Mary Ferrell, or?

This is obviously a snippet from it.

Cheers, Albert.  Much appreciated.

I had a feeling it would be that document.  It is part of the larger document I linked to in my first post about Tommy Rowe.  The one held at Baylor.  There is nothing identifying the document as being from the NOLA DA files on the Baylor document.

You're right, Lee.  What is this document?  It looks typewritten, not word-processed/printed. 

Since Jim Di has worked a lot with NOLA DA stuff, maybe he could give us a hint at the provenance.

Just thought I'd clear this matter up, Albert.

The document is a Garrison document prepared by Bill Boxley outlining miscellaneous information, witnesses and leads.

It was typed on 15 September, 1967, and the full item is linked here:

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/B%20Disk/Boxley%20Memos%20Miscellaneous/Item%2006.pdf

I'm still shaking my head that Armstrong blatantly misrepresented what was contained in this document by including a nonexistent reference to a brown shirt in his book.

Not only that, Lee.  Bill Boxley was hardly what you would call one of Garrison's reliable investigators.  He led the office on numerous wild goose chases (see Destiny Betrayed, 2nd ed.: 278-283).

Thanks for hunting this down.

Hmmm, Gary Thomas Rowe located at "a hideout on Maxwell AFB" ..... but I thought he was only with FBI.

Lee, I read thru the Mildred Lane Longworth et al info; very interesting but not sure there's any leads in there other than the fact the Feds had reason to believe she'd heard something about plans for assassination; that she contradicts herself on that point (mentions a "move" [to assassinate] at some point; and despite denial of being extremist herself, pseudonymously wrote a little poem about "Johnnie" (JFK), the helper of Negroes.

Is this the only source he has on this brown shirt matter for the Texas Theater?

BTW, Garrison would make these lists out about once a week.

THey would be made up of information that would come into the office and then he would assign people to go out and do the lead follow up.

Believe me,there was some bombshell stuff on these lead lists.  I will never forget the one that had a caller tell him that he saw either a photo or a film of Oswald at Clay Shaw's house.

Unluckily, this one was drawn up by the CIA agent Boxley. So you can predict what happened.

Gone with the wind?

I have a copy of With Malice, and cannot agree with the times Lee posted for when Walker & Owens made their transmissions regarding the sighting of a possible suspect at the Jefferson Branch Library.

Myers gives 1:35:31 for Walker's radio call "223, he's in the library at Jefferson- east 500 block Marsalis and Jefferson"

And 1:38:41 for Owens' call that "It was the wrong man".

I would assume that Myers had the tape to listen to  get these exact estimates. So contrary to the impression that this exchange took one very large New York minute, it actually took a little over 3 minutes.

William Weston's article "Missing Radio Transmissions" makes some spurious assumptions. Weston predicates his belief that Tippit got murdered at 1:00 based on a letter from early researcher Shirley Martin, who interviewed Hugh Aynesworth in 1964. And she wrote that Aynesworth said he "heard a squad radio blast out that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff. This was around one o'clock."

Weston goes on to assume that an "unknown citizen" must have made a call a 1:02 on Tippit's squad car radio, and that this call must have been erased from the record. With nothing to substantiate his claim.

For corroboration, he uses Roger Craig's 1:06 estimate, from his book written about 1969. Where he said he was on the 6th floor and heard the news about Tippit and glanced at his watch.

He has Ron Reiland, Vic Robertson and Aynesworth,  driving the channel 8 cruiser - "They got to Tenth & Patton by 1:09". This is baloney. Reiland's footage includes the dilapidated furniture stores on Jefferson, about 1:23, where several other police cars were parked (including Owens') and a 1:09 arrival is not within the realm of possibility.

But to his credit, I have to agree that something got snipped from the radio tapes. Because the official story has Charles Walker turning his squad car just onto Denver (with Patrolman Jez and an unidentified newsman) when he spotted Adrian Hamby running across the library lawn about 100 yards up. And Hamby from this distance was a close enough match to the Tippit killer description to cause Walker to make his radio call and thereby lead the Dallas Police stampede to the library.

It seems quite possible that an alert was made regarding a potential suspect at the library, and that it came from one of the mysterious plainclothesman who would tell Hamby to go run inside the building. Who would subsequently assure Owens that "it was the wrong man"

And the timing of this library diversion coincided with an imposter showing himself in Johnny Brewer's shoe store lobby.

I took the times of the calls from the transmission transcripts. I don't have Myers book.  But if we are using Myers timetable let's put the Tippit shooting down as 1:14:30 PM.  This time stamp is even more "spurious" than Weston's.

For such a comprehensive timeline isn't it strange how Myers doesn't want to include T. F. Bowley looking at his watch but is quick to include Bowley's radio call:

http://www.jdtippit.com/timetable_nov.htm

As Richard knows we have quite a few versions of the transmissions in the volumes but the first Walker and Owens calls concerning the library are in the 1:35 PM time stamp on every single version and the calls are so close together on channel one that if I'm being asked to believe the Walker spotter call only resulted in a handful of transmissions between sighting and Owens saying "we're all here" then I'm going to have to decline that one.  There is no way on this earth that all the police who at that moment were being directed west before being asked to turn east turned up in less than 20 seconds.
Especially given Hamby's story.  

I knew once the transmissions came up there would be temptation to start picking and choosing where we think the transmissions are genuine and where we think there is something dodgy about them because there has always been something decided dodgy about them.  Personally I think the transmissions have many bogus aspects to them which is why the DPD stalled in many different ways in providing them and why we have different versions.

Myers timeline has Julia Postal calling the police at 1:42:00 yet he has no explanation as to what happens during the three minutes and forty five seconds before the dispatch goes out about the suspect running into the Texas Theater.

Here is McAdams Transmissions page:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

Here is a copy of the original transmissions transcript given over by the DPD on December 3, 1963.  Page (6) of the first document was handed over with many transmissions not included and the second transmission set didn't even include the time stamp of 1:35 PM for the library call page (71):

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf

I'll link to the version published in the Warren Commission once I get a chance.  From memory they're in volume XVII and I believe it's CE 705

They're in XXIII Exhibit 1974. On p. 866 the dispatcher flat-out says "1:33" and he next states the time on p. 870: "1:40". That's a very rough approximation of 7/4 minutes per page or 1:45 per page. On p. 867 we get Walker's call and nearly two full pages later Owens says "it was the wrong man". So there was a lot of dialogue between the two and I don't see how they can be construed as taking place in the same NY minute at 1:35

But I agree that Myers can be entirely selective with the evidence when he so chooses. He has to be double-checked like everyone else. The time-stamp on the Tippit murder is 1:08 as far as I'm concerned. TF Bowley looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and Helen Markham left her apartment at circa 1:05 to catch a bus to work. And Bowley checked his watch after about 101 seconds of intermittent beeping on the DPD radio tapes, which is almost certainly Benavides attempting to mash the microphone button on Tippit's squad car radio.

The Channel One tapes had 3 successive versions presented to the Commission: December and April by the DPD, and August by the FBI. All of them were edited differently, most famously, the December version didn't yet have the 12:45 transmission from the dispatcher "87 and 78, move into Central Oak Cliff area."

William Weston makes the point that a few succinct snips were all that were needed to successfully bury the Tippit case.

Richard Gilbride wrote:They're in XXIII Exhibit 1974. On p. 866 the dispatcher flat-out says "1:33" and he next states the time on p. 870: "1:40". That's a very rough approximation of 7/4 minutes per page or 1:45 per page. On p. 867 we get Walker's call and nearly two full pages later Owens says "it was the wrong man". So there was a lot of dialogue between the two and I don't see how they can be construed as taking place in the same NY minute at 1:35

Maybe I wasn't clear, Richard. In my last post I was specificaly talking about the time between Walker calling in the suspect running into the Library to Owens stating they were all there.  I agree with you about the 1:33 through 1:40 period being listed on the transcript you have referred to and I will go and look at whether your assessment that each page of these documents averages 1:45 per page that you point out.  I stand corrected on this issue and can only assume I was referencing the McAdams transcripts website when I wrote that passage rather than the transcripts published in the the volumes.

My main issue overall wasn't with the times per se but with the actual events at the library and whether Hamby's description of it marries up to the documents.  If Hamby's story is accurate then I still struggle with the timeframes because Walker's call was based on seeing Hamby run across the car park.

I have real concerns with the transmission transcripts because on the example you list above there is a seven minute gap between time stamps from the dispatcher - dispatch says 1:33 before the next time of 1:40.  Seven minutes without either channel 1 or channel 2 stating the time.  I have a hard time believing that.  Do you accept there was a seven minute gap and that all of the time stamps are genuine when you suspect snips or erasures elsewhere - especially when we are presented with the likes of this from CE 705:

1:10 would morph into 1:19 on CE 1974. And it looks like someone did try to type in a 9 over the 0 on CE 705.

Consider the audacity of the Warren Report's statement that "Tippit's murder was recorded on the police radio tape about 1:16 p.m." giving Bowley's radio call on CE 1974 as a source. But the casual reader wouldn't be checking footnotes in the Volumes. And would imagine that the Commission edited out, on grounds of taste, Tippit's blood-curdling screams, and Oswald boasting, "You'll never take me alive, copper"     

James DiEugenio wrote:Is this the only source he has on this brown shirt matter for the Texas Theater?

No, Jim.  Armstrong had Brewer and Postal.  But it appears he felt the need to make up out of thin air Tommy Rowe seeing Oswald wearing a brown shirt because there is no mention of a brown shirt in the Garrison document he sources.

Regarding the Tippit murder, who in your opinion killed Tippit? Also do you feel he was a part of the conspiracy.

JFK Student wrote:Regarding the Tippit murder, who in your opinion killed Tippit? Also do you feel he was a part of the conspiracy.

I'm convinced Tippit was involved in the conspiracy. So too were other police officers.

Larry Crafard is obviously a suspect, but I wonder if Harry Olsen bore a passing resemblance to Oswald. There is also the mysterious Igor Vaganov to consider.

Tippit's murderer came looking for him - not the other way round.

JFK Student wrote:Regarding the Tippit murder, who in your opinion killed Tippit? Also do you feel he was a part of the conspiracy.

FWIW: I believe it was Larry Crafard.

Crafard would tie in with the witnesses who saw two people, one short and stocky who could have been his mentor Jack Ruby.

There was most definitely a short, stocky guy who ran off from the Tippit scene with a gun in his hand.

It wasn't Jack Ruby though or so we are led to believe.  We even have his admission under oath.