Scoggins Testimony ?

G'day all,

can anyone shed light on Scoggins WC testimony with regard to the Tippit slaying and the ambulance arriving at the scene just moments after he was shot (according to Scoggins) And who did he "drive" around with in his cab looking for the perp. Scoggins claims this man he dove around with, didn't really id himself and confirms at one point in his testimony that upon returning to the Tippit crime scene that he learns from others that the  person wasn't a "cop". One final thing is he claims that he saw Tippits gun out of its holster on the ground and lying under his body. He claims the person whom he rode about looking for the perp with, took the gun from the scene whilst they looked for the Tippet killer and upon their return handed it over to police at the scene. I have tried to cross reference all of this but I am stumped.....very much appreciate your assistance. I apologise in advance, for I'm sure this has been covered to death by everyone.

Hi Mick,

This is related to the Kenneth Hudson Croy thread that is currently live on the forum.

William Scoggins, according to the official story, drove around Oak Cliff looking for the Tippit assailant with Ted Callaway who was a used car salesman working on Patton Avenue.  Callaway allegedly took Tippit's revolver and was trying to get other witnesses to go with him - he eventually coerced Scoggins and in Scoggins testimony he claims he thought Callaway was law enforcement.  The strange thing about their journey in the taxi is that Callaway and Scoggins testified that they saw the killer walk south down Patton Avenue and turn west on Jefferson Boulevard.  From memory Callaway and Scoggins did not travel the same direction and instead drove north rather than south looking for him.

When Callaway returned as an empty handed vigilante he handed the gun over.  We are unsure as to who this individual was that eventually received the weapon (and when) at the scene because the statements and testimony contain contradictions.

Thanks so much for the reply Lee,
Can you shed any light on the ambulance timeline. It seems even WC was taken aback with his estimate of the ambulance arriving not to soon after Tippit was shot, from memory he says "moments" and is quite sure in his testimony

The ambulance arrived quickly because it was stationed at Dudley Funeral Home at 400 East Jefferson Boulevard - roughly one and half to two blocks away from the Tippit shooting. The ambulance, we are informed, was dispatched on the back of Mr. and Mrs Frank Wright's telephone call very shortly after the shooting.  We do not have any records of this phone call and so therefore cannot place the exact time.  The ambulance was driven by Clayton Butler and Eddie Kinsley. Neither men testified before the Warren Commission.

Bear in mind that William Scoggins claimed to have hidden from the assailant next to his cab after the shooting and stayed there to watch him calmly walk up Patton Avenue towards Jefferson Boulevard (where the ambulance would soon be coming from) before he [Scoggins] got back in his cab to call his taxi dispatcher about what happened.  Scoggins in his FBI statement claimed it took him some time to initially get through.  In his testimony he states he was on the radio for a couple of minutes:

Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and then they went to talking to me then. 
Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come on right around there. 
Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you estimate? 
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty close.

Once again, records of this radio call from Scoggins to his cab company do not exist or may never have existed.  Any and all records that may have shed light on the actual, accurate time of the shooting were not searched for (or were searched for and found, before disappearing) and instead we have to rely on the Dallas Police radio dispatch tapes and transcripts that I believe are as dodgy as a $3 coin...

When Clayton Butler, ambulance driver, was interviewed by the HSCA in 1977 he was asked about timings from that day when he and Eddie Kinsley drove out to the Tippit scene.

He told them the following:

"I was on the scene in one minute or less.  From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes."


Cross posted to the Kenneth Hudson Croy thread.

Lee Farley wrote:When Clayton Butler, ambulance driver, was interviewed by the HSCA in 1977 he was asked about timings from that day when he and Eddie Kinsley drove out to the Tippit scene.

He told them the following:

"I was on the scene in one minute or less.  From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes."


Cross posted to the Kenneth Hudson Croy thread.

Well that seems to fit quite nicely with Tippit being shot between 1:06 and 1:10 pm, as the statements of Markham and Bowley establish, and his being pronounced DOA at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 pm as the Supplementary Offense Report states.

Information on Scoggins contact with his dispatcher:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=81

Hasan Yusuf wrote:Information on Scoggins contact with his dispatcher:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10406&relPageId=81

More bullshit, Hasan.  Thanks for posting this.  I've never seen it before.

1:25 p.m. and the call was delayed being posted in his records pending notification of the Dallas Police Department.  How much of this garbage can we take?  It's just meaningless drivel.

Recently we were looking at some of the official Tippit documents and noticed that the typefaces appeared different on various numbers.

Tonight I was struck by the content of two FBI statements both given by William Scoggins two days apart concerning whether he could ID Lee Oswald.  Remember that Oswald was allegedly positively ID'd by William Scoggins in person at City Hall on Saturday November 23.

Look at the two documents below and first notice what they say in relation to Scoggins ability to identify Oswald.  Then look at the name of the FBI agent on one of the documents.  Finally look at the bottom left dates (the date of interview) and see if you notice anything peculiar:

Well, the date certainly looks like it was typed by the FBI. The three in the 23 is raised and is smaller/different looking that the three in the 63. And is that an 11, or a some third grader trying to make a 2 out of a one?

Thanks everyone for the info. Cheers Mick,

Well done Lee.

Refresh my memory. Was there some question mark over whether Scoggins actually attended a police lie-up?

Scoggins Time Line of statements:

DPD affidavit 11/23/63 - claims he could recognize shooter again if he saw him

FBI report 11/23/63 (SA Bardwell Odum) - Note: not dictated until 11/25. States Scoggins picked Oswald out of a line-up. Shooter carried gun in left. Muttered "poor dumb cop" as he trotted off.

FBI report 11/25/63 (SA Richard Rapideau) - unable to ID Oswald from photo as being identical with the shooter

USSS report signed off on by Scoggins 12/2/63 -  confirms he had ID'd Oswald at the Police Department

---------------------

You know what? This is a load of shit.

Firstly, why would the DPD take an affidavit from Scoggins PRIOR to a line-up?

Secondly, if he claimed he could ID the shooter and then two days later, was shown a photo of Oswald and could say he was identical to the shooter - then guess what? It is as good as saying Oswald wasn't the shooter. Additional evidence for that: the shooter was carrying the gun in his left hand and; the shooter muttered "poor dumb cop" which I do not believe for a millisecond is a phrase that would pass Oswald's lips. It is just not the idiom he would use.

Thirdly, it looks to me like Odum has simply made a document to counteract SA Rapideau's effort and falsely claimed it was based on an interview with Scoggins proceeding his putative ID of Oswald on 11/23.

Lee Farley wrote:More bullshit, Hasan.  Thanks for posting this.  I've never seen it before.

1:25 p.m. and the call was delayed being posted in his records pending notification of the Dallas Police Department.  How much of this garbage can we take?  It's just meaningless drivel.

I agree that it's bullshit, Lee.

Yep, it sure looks that way.

The timeline for the ambulance is really interesting.

First, it makes Markham out to be even more panic stricken since she said Tippit talked to her as he lay dying on the street for several minutes.

Second, it sure does seem like that timeline fits the earlier shooting time supported by Bowley.

Another copy of that so called Nov 25 1963 document.
Thanks to Malcolm Blunt

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X4hMVsqLsGUh_j7RLaAbm1A98Su81bbO/view?usp=drivesdk

It renders Scoggins as a witness completely useless

The cab ride that never was.

If Scoggins didn’t get through until 1:25 (his Warren Commission testimony says 1:23), why did he say an ambulance was needed when it’s estimated an ambulance picked up Tippit about 1:19? Even if Scoggins stayed in or near his taxi, he certainly couldn’t have missed the ambulance and its sirens.

By Callaway’s account, just after he had helped load Tippit into the ambulance, he took Tippit’s pistol and had Scoggins drive down 10th to Crawford and then Jefferson to look for the suspect

lanceman wrote:If Scoggins didn’t get through until 1:25 (his Warren Commission testimony says 1:23), why did he say an ambulance was needed when it’s estimated an ambulance picked up Tippit about 1:19? Even if Scoggins stayed in or near his taxi, he certainly couldn’t have missed the ambulance and its sirens.

By Callaway’s account, just after he had helped load Tippit into the ambulance, he took Tippit’s pistol and had Scoggins drive down 10th to Crawford and then Jefferson to look for the suspect

It's hard to ignore the following document no matter what the Police Log may indicate:


DOA - Date and time of death noted at 1:15pm

Guest wrote:Hi Mick,

This is related to the Kenneth Hudson Croy thread that is currently live on the forum.

William Scoggins, according to the official story, drove around Oak Cliff looking for the Tippit assailant with Ted Callaway who was a used car salesman working on Patton Avenue.  Callaway allegedly took Tippit's revolver and was trying to get other witnesses to go with him - he eventually coerced Scoggins and in Scoggins testimony he claims he thought Callaway was law enforcement.  The strange thing about their journey in the taxi is that Callaway and Scoggins testified that they saw the killer walk south down Patton Avenue and turn west on Jefferson Boulevard.  From memory Callaway and Scoggins did not travel the same direction and instead drove north rather than south looking for him.

When Callaway returned as an empty handed vigilante he handed the gun over.  We are unsure as to who this individual was that eventually received the weapon (and when) at the scene because the statements and testimony contain contradictions.

Callaway’s November 22, 1963 affidavit states He and Scoggins went down Patton to Jefferson: 


We got into his cab, number 213 and drove up Patton to Jefferson and looked all around, but did not see him.”


However, Callaway’s WC Testimony states that they went down 10th to Crawford and left on Jefferson:


“So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up to 10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson to Beckley. And we turned on Beckley.”


I give more weight to the November 22 affidavit since it makes more sense (as that’s the way the suspect fled) and was given while events were more fresh in his mind. I also remember reading somewhere that Callaway remarked that Scoggins had a hell of a time turning his taxi around which would have been necessary if they reached Jefferson via Patton since Scoggins’ taxi was parked facing the other direction.


So why didn’t Callaway or Scoggins see the suspect?


1. They passed the suspect when was trying to hide in the furniture storage building or when he was behind the gas station.


2. The suspect did not remain on Jefferson. In which case, how do we know he actually went to the Texas Theater?


3. Callaway did not get as good a look at the suspect as he stated.


Many make a big deal of Callaway asking Benevides which way the suspect went. I think it’s reasonable that Callaway was unsure whether the man he saw running up Patton was a suspect or someone, perhaps a plainclothes detective that was looking for the suspect.